HI Folks

Have a weird one, and I hope I'm wrong.  But I spoke to a gentleman today who made some strong claims about his service in Vietnam
and after, and wanted to check in with someone who knows.

Here is what he said:
1:  served in vietnam as a 1st LT, as a sniper in the 75th Rangers, and they would operate ourside the RVN
ie cambodia, laos, thailand.1966 / 1967 two tours  I didn't think they operated outside the RVN until later in
the war, and that it woudl be via MACV/ SOG not rangers?  
2:  was the leader of a 6 man team when they would go "in" - I asked him what kind of rifle he carried, a M14,
a bolt action?  HIs reply was "A special one"  He said they would typically take people out, from 500 to 1000 yards.
3:  what kind of helicopter was used for insterions, Huey or?  Reply "A quiet one"
4:  He also claimed to be part of a HAWK missle battery, where there HAWK missles in the RVN, that early?
and the Army had them?  Thought only the marines used them, and not until the 70's

Is it me or do these two sets of christmas lights just do not connect?
Thanks in advance.

There are some unexplained data points in that narrative.  Just from a quick google search-----



First, in 1966-67, he did not serve in the 75th Rangers in Vietnam.

LRP-LRRP units were converted into elements of the Rangers in 1969.

"Rangers were again called to serve their country during the Vietnam War. The 75th Infantry was reorganized once more on Jan. 1, 1969, as a parent regiment under the Combat Arms Regimental System. Fifteen separate Ranger companies were formed from this reorganization. Thirteen served proudly in Vietnam until inactivation on Aug. 15, 1972."

http://www.goarmy.com/ranger/heritage.html



Second, Thailand would be a long way for a reconnaissance patrol.  They would have to walk across Laos and Cambodia to get there.  Look at a map:




Sounds like a description of LRP-LRRP units with the 6 man patrols.


"In December 1965, the 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, formed a LRRP platoon, and by April 1966, the 1st Infantry Division, 25th Infantry Division and 173rd Airborne Brigade formed LRRP units as well. On 8 July 1966, General William Westmoreland authorized the formation of a (LRRP) unit in each infantry brigade or division in Vietnam. By 1967 formal LRRP companies were organized, most having three platoons, each with five six-man teams equipped with VHF/FM AN/PRC-25 radios. LRRP training was notoriously rigorous and team leaders were often graduates of the U.S. Army's 5th Special Forces Recondo School in Nha Trang, Vietnam.

Since satellite communications were a thing of the future, one of the most daring long-range penetration operations of the war was launched by members of the 1st Air Cavalry Division's, long-range reconnaissance patrol, against the North Vietnamese Army when they seized "Signal Hill" the name attributed to the peak of Dong Re Lao Mountain, a densely forested 4,879-foot mountain, midway in A Shau Valley, so its 1st and 3rd Brigades, who would be fighting behind a wall of mountains, could communicate with Camp Evans near the coast or with approaching aircraft."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Reconnaissance_Patrol


Third, a "special" rifle and a "quiet" helicopter are .



Fourth, there were HAWK units in Vietnam.  They were put there to deal with the possible threat from NVAF Il-28 aircraft.


"The men of the 6th Battalion, 56th Artillery (HAWK) in locations in Vietnam - Bien Hoa, Tan Son Nhut, Long Bien, Chu Lia, or Landing Zone Oasis stood ready to defend their assigned air bases, fuel and ammo dumps, cities, major troop concentrations areas and free world ports in the Republic of South Vietnam.

Once the enemy’s aircraft was locked on by the HAWK battalion’s radars, they turned tail and departed our air defense zone. So I ask you? Was the 6th Battalion, 56th Artillery (HAWK) successful in Vietnam? Measure by the number of air attacks on South Vietnam.

....

Air Defense of the Republic of Vietnam

Air defense of the Republic of Vietnam against a hostile air attack was the responsibility of the Commander, 7th Air Force, who was designated the Commander of the Mainland Southeast Asia Air Defense Region. The Commander was directly responsible to Commander in Chief, Pacific Air Forces (CINCPACAF).

To accomplish the air defense mission, he was given operational control over an mlti-service force of fighters interceptors and surface-to-air missiles, which were control through the radar agencies of the Tactical Air Control System (TACS). The fighter force consisted of F-102s deployed from Clark Air Base, Philippines, and a member of 1st Marine Air Wing (MAW) F-4Bs, augmented with forces drawn from tactical fighter units. The U.S. Army’s 6th Battalion, 56th Artillery, 6th Battalion, 71st Artillery and the Marines 1st LAAM Battalion and 2nd LAAM Battalion constituted the ground complement of this air defense system.

The Mission of the HAWK Battalion in the Republic of Vietnam

In order to understand the mission of the Hawk missile battalions in the Republic of Vietnam we must establish some basic parameters. The maximum slant range of the Basic HAWK missile was about 15 miles. And could engage targets up to height of 36,000 feet. The distance from Tan Son Nhut Air Base to Bien Hoa Air Base is approximately 23 km or 14.3 miles. The CWAR Continuous Wave Acquisition Radar was used to detect targets up to 43 miles out.

The speed of the IL-28 North Vietnamese Light Bomber was 560 miles per hour. The distance from Hanoi to Bien Hoa Air Base was approximately 699 miles and to Saigon approximate 712 miles.

The mission of the HAWK missile battalions was to detect targets via acquisition radars, which were capable of detecting hostile aircraft at sufficient range to support the maximum missile intercept capabilities.

The mission of engaging hostile close in pop-up aircraft was the Duster 40MM Gun, Quad 50s and Vulcan.

Integrated Air Defense System

The United States Air Force, Hawk missile battalions, Duster 40MM Gun, Quad 50s and Vulcan tied in to an integrated early warning air defense system gave the free world forces in the Republic of South Vietnam an air defense force in depth. The Dusters, Quad 50s and Vulcan being the last line of this defense."

http://6thbattalion56thartillery.com/Why_HAWKs_to_Vietnam.html


However, it does seem unlikely that a highly trained and specialized air defense artillery officer would also be sent out on reconnaissance sniper missions.

There were two "quiet helicopters" in country that were used for a wire tap mission in southern North Vietnam along the Ho Chi Minh Trail before it turned into Laos. They were specially-converted OH-6 Cayuses, and their presence was kept tightly under wraps. One crashed, and the other was dismantled not long after that mission. It is exceptionally doubtful your pard ever even came close to these birds.

Recon mission(s) in Thailand? Doubt it. The only US presence there were Air Force bases, and the Thai forces still had the run of their own country. VC penetration was extremely limited and concerned only with raids on two of those bases.

LRP/LRRP carrying an M14? Recon teams typically opted for more bullets/magazines and stripping off unnecessary weight, so the M16 and variants were de rigueur. One could carry almost twice as many 5.56 rounds than 7.62. In thick vegetation against superior forces, aimed fire was usually a pipe dream, so more bullets were appreciated.

Thanks guys, I did try a google search on rangers etc and came up blank, they mostly referred to later war topics etc.
I don't want to call him on it, but what he was saying just didn't make sense.
Why would the army spend all the time to train him to be a sniper, only to turn him over to air defense artillery?
He was into rockets and spent time after the war with defence contractors, namely Boeing.
Maybe it is true, but once a ranger,  doesn't one stay with the rangers, not switch to ADA?
It was confusing to me to talk to him, as I thought I knew a few things about the war
and the terms, weapons and deployment, and his answers were vague.

Surely one would remember their rifle as a sniper, right?

My dad was the only helicopter mechanic in all of Vietnam. Everyone else's dad was like this guy. Ninja cia green beret specialist tactical airborne. He probably had a mundane job like most people there. The evidence is piling up against his claim to be sure.

I flew LRRPs in Laos in 69 from Vietnam side. They carried "CAR-15s" typically. Small and light, Never M14s. No "Quiet" helicopters.I say bullshit.

I have to say bullshit on all of it too..

The first red flag is the claim of being a 1LT and a Sniper.

For starters, officers don't get trained as snipers, and officers didn't typically conduct patrols with LRP or LRRP teams.  Officers in LRP/LRRPs/LRS stay at the FOB for the most part.  LRRP Teams rarely used snipers, since the duty position doesn't fit in well with the LRRP mission profile, although there were occasional supporting missions where snipers would be inserted with a LRRP team.  If someone had really been in a Sniper duty position, they wouldn't have said they used the M14 either, since there is a different nomenclature for the National Match M14 with an ART-I or ART-II scope for that era.

The most senior NCO on a LRRP Recon Team was usually an E-6/SSG, which is the MTO&E.  Platoon Leaders would be back at the FOB, or flying in Command and Control birds for insertions on some occasions.  They might go out with the Team Leaders for an aerial recon before conducting patrols, but they just don't serve any tactical role on the ground in LRP/LRRP/LRS patrols.

The various LRRP Companies that had been formed during the war were later organized into the 75th Ranger Regiment, which was formally organized into 2 Ranger Battalions in 1974.

LRRPs in Thailand?  That just doesn't make a lot of sense at all.  Keep in mind that LRRPs were either Brigade or Division-level assets within one of the 4 Corps Tactical Zones within Vietnam.  Thailand was and is a US-friendly ally that allowed us to base air forces there.  The only reason for a LRRP to leave Vietnam was for R&R, medical evac to a hospital in Japan, or his DEROS back to the States.

The cross-border operations were really a SOG area of responsibility, although some conventional units did go over into Cambodia in one campaign, but it was big.

I spent time in a Corps LRS Unit in the 1990's, but my area of focus for many years of my life was Vietnam history, from the 1940's to 1975, with particular focus on LRPs, LRRP's, SF, etc.

I'm honestly seeing so many red flags, that it's fair to say this story is BS for the reasons I listed.

Had a friend who was with HQ Co., 75th Rangers.  Being black, he and other blacks were placed in HQ Co. This surprised me since Truman ordered the integration of units.  He gave me their published book (what do they call those year book type books?), but I've yet to find it.

I met a Marine who said he must have been the only cook in Vietnam.