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Posted: 12/28/2001 11:48:28 AM EDT
Hi, I'm not trying to start a flame war, just looking for some honest answers. I'm really new to the gun thing (got my 1st gun about a year ago) and only been into the politics for the last several months. So what's wrong with the instant background checks? I'm curious as to what the cases for and against it are, like the dreaded gun show loophole, etc. Please no flames, I'm looking for informative answers here.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 12:08:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 12:13:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 1:00:15 PM EDT
The "right to keep and bear arms" inherently includes the right to obtain them. With NICS, you have to ask the federal government for permission to exercise that right. Legislators tried to eliminate (or hide) the intrusion by making the background check "instant" - but it's not "instant" for about half of buyers, taking up to 5 days (long enough that the impact on sales destroyed the best gun shop in my area as customers got sick of driving a significant distance, only to be told to come back later). That's assuming NICS is on-line, which it frequently isn't for days at a time, especially around major anti-gun events (like the "Million Mom March" - NICS was unavailable the whole weekend); they claim that there's no political agenda, but facts indicate otherwise. NICS is far from foolproof. The database is a haphazard mix of legal records assembled from unreliable sources. If your name is at all common, you may very well get mixed up with some lawbreaker with the same name, and have your purchase request denied until you can prove you're not him. So much for YOUR right to buy a gun. The feds are legally prohibited from keeping any records on gun buyers - yet they are allowed (so sez the supreme court) to keep those records for "auditing" and "backup" purposes. As long as they have those records under any pretense, a law could be passed to unlock those records for search-and-siezure purposes. Ultimately, NICS only does its job of preventing criminal purposes to a small degree. Maybe a given purchase is prevented, but the perp can still buy guns on the street (just like completely illegal drugs). The cost to implement NICS is very high, both in tax dollars and in suppression of rights - but it does little to stop criminals from getting guns.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 1:21:14 PM EDT
National Institute of Communist Sympathizers that is what N.I.C.S stands for. Who else would want a National Database of American Gun Owners? The NRA marketing department? I don't think so JerrY _______________________________ Rehabilitate the Guilty, Punish the Innocent- Democrat Credo
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 10:22:00 AM EDT
The fact remains that sentencing someone to jail until fully rehabilitated or dead would, for even most violent feny charges, be considered excessive punishment. Violent felons simply don't rehabilitate, and even life sentences are usually described as being a 25 year bid. That being said, you need some way to screen purchasers to weed out unlawful buyers.
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 11:16:43 AM EDT
Skunkabilly, I'm against NICS, because I don't trust the government to ever correctly implement such a system. It's complicated, and it requires coordinating details from many different sources of information. I've never been charged with a crime, but I have not once been approvied for a purchase by NICS. With the way NICS appeal process works, you are not allowed to request that they fix their information unless you are first denied. When NICS refuses to deny you (because they just issue delays), then you can't do anything about it. Even a trip to Clarksburg and a letter from Senator Hollings' office to the FBI requesting a fix was fruitless. The result is that many of us can't buy firearms without a mandatory three day delay. That means gun shows for me are for looking only, no buying.z
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 12:32:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2002 8:49:43 PM EDT
If, and I mean a big If. If, a system could be implemented nationwide to perform background checks for any purpose, including employment. As long as that system had 24/7 uptime, and it didn't keep records. Then and only then would I be OK with NICS. There are a number of problem, such as: 1) By limiting the Hours of NICS, the Government is creating a virtual Blackout period in which nobody can buy arms. 2) NICS isn't "unreliable", but rather it is poorly administered. Politicos can shut it down on a whim and create a virtual NO-GUN time period. 3) The Federal Government is keeping illegal records of Gun Owners. And, in cases where the check is initiated through the State or Local Government, they also get the records. All of which are used to compile a registry of Gunowners for an eventual confiscation and total disarmement as per Current Federal Law. See "OH SHIT IT'S CONFIRMED, THEY WANT OUR GUNS" For more Details. 4) By requiring the Buyer to pay for the NICS check, they are placing another hurdle albeit a small one in the way of Gun Ownership. I have to pay $8 for the NICS check even if I was buying a $10 Raven. For example, I can buy Ravens for $10 from time-to-time on Gunbroker (though I haven't bought one.) But, in order to receive the Gun interstate it must go through an FFL (in order to perform NICS) which costs an additional $20 - $30, for the FFLs time and the $8 NICS Check. So the $10 Pistol is now $30. That inflates the price 200%. On a $1000 Gun this amount is unnoticable, but when buying guns that are less than $100, the check is very noticable. I have bought 22 Rifles for $39 - $79. And, the $8 NICS Check is very noticable. 5) The rest of the costs are passed on to the Taxpayers. Solutions are: 1) A Law that states that if NICS cannot determine in 1 Hour whether a person is prohibited that the sale shall be allowed to continue. 2) A Law that states if NICS goes down for any reason that a NICS Check shall not be required. 3) NICS Hours be 24/7/365. 4) The NICS system be expanded to a background check system rather than a simple Approved/Denied/Delayed system. This would require that persons other than FFLs be allowed to run NICS checks. For example, allow employers to do NICS checks on potential employees. This way, it would make it hard to tell who is a gun buyer and who is applying for a job. It would also defray costs so as they are not passed on to Gun Buyers and tax payers. 5) Rather than charging a ridiculous $8 per transaction, use part of the cost of an FFL ($50/Year) to pay for the cost of administering the NICS system. Non-FFLs could pay a fee, but his info. could be used to seperate Gun Purchases from other inquiries. Instead, each person who needs access should be expected top pay a small fee for access. This fee should be sufficient to defray costs, but not so much that it creates a noticable effect on gun prices. So, what is wrong with this. It will never happen. NICS will always have blackouts. The powers that be will never agree to any law to allow purchases when NICS is down or can't determine eligibility.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 1:34:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skunkabilly: Hi, So what's wrong with the instant background checks? I'm curious as to what the cases for and against it are, like the dreaded gun show loophole, etc. Please no flames, I'm looking for informative answers here.
View Quote
Since I work gunshows I can perhaps give a upside/downside of the NICS. Upside is a customer can have a true "cash-n-carry" sale of a firearm. In TN, it used to take up to 3, yes, 3 weeks for an approval from the local sheriff or police chief on a background check. At gunshows a person may drive several hours to attend & thus shouldn't be penalizied (sp?) for having to come back just to accept delivery. On this aspect, it works wonderfully. Downside is, NICS (under Klinton) would crash on a regular basis on weekends. The ENTIRE weekend of the Misinformed Mom March the NICS was down. Coincidence? Not hardly. Needless to say a lot of dealers lost their butts on that weekend's show. Another downside is that the FBI indeed has a record of your request to own a gun as well as the serial # & mfgr & model & caliber of that gun. We all remember the surprise (sarcasm) when Butch Reno decided to keep the request records for beyond the 90 day limit imposed by Congress. Can you say "gun registration", boys & girls? So there's pluses & minuses on both counts. Take your pick, I guess.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 1:46:37 PM EDT
So I guess the big problem is that whether you own a gun or not is still under the Feds' control whether you're a BG or not, huh? So couldn't Gore, if he were President, not outlaw guns perse, but get an Executive Order to shut down NICS for an indefinite amount of time after Sept. 11 if he REALLY wanted to?
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