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Posted: 3/16/2017 12:41:30 PM EDT
[#1]
No, AFAIK.
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Posted: 3/16/2017 12:51:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, AFAIK. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 1:15:59 PM EDT
[#3]
No, and yes because of ITAR, and yes it most certainly applies to you.
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Posted: 3/16/2017 1:27:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, and yes because of ITAR, and yes it most certainly applies to you. Thanks for your responses, guys. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 1:55:51 PM EDT
[#5]
You are most welcome
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Posted: 3/16/2017 4:28:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Hey guys, I've got a Troy rear sight for sale in the EE and a guy from Finland contacted me offering to buy it. Is it okay for me to sell and ship it to him? I mean as far as ITAR and/or any other international laws? I really don't know much about ITAR, just that it has something to do with international sales of guns or gun parts. At least that's the way I've always understood it. Does it apply to individuals or just companies, or both? So, is it okay for me to sell a rear sight to a member in Finland and ship it there? You are fine. Nothing in ITAR prevents sale of an iron sight. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 7:10:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are fine. Nothing in ITAR prevents sale of an iron sight. Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), complete breech mechanisms, or fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms HSI has routinely prosecuted individuals for the export, without a permit, of AR15 parts that are "bolt-ons", up to and including muzzle devices, stocks, pistol grips, etc. as they could be used on an M16. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 8:25:18 PM EDT
[#8]
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This is the legal forum, so let me explain to you politely why you are wrong. The specific passage in ITAR reads as such in regards to what you can export; Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), complete breech mechanisms, or fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms HSI has routinely prosecuted individuals for the export, without a permit, of AR15 parts that are "bolt-ons", up to and including muzzle devices, stocks, pistol grips, etc. as they could be used on an M16. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 8:44:40 PM EDT
[#9]
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I was a State Department DS Officer who investigated and enforced ITAR. So let me tell you why you are wrong. It is because you have no reading comprehension and have no clue what you are talking about. The text you quoted comes not from the USML, but directly from CFR 123.17(2) and is what IS PERMITTED to be exported to Canada, if the dollar value is < $500. Oops. You do not even know what section to [incorrectly] quote. *(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts therefor. And yes I deal with this professionally too. And to further compound your ignorance, the above passage is talking specifically of what is NOT permitted regardless of value. I deal with Canada 90% of the time, my mind went there first. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:14:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And to further compound your ignorance, the above passage is talking specifically of what is NOT permitted regardless of value. I deal with Canada 90% of the time, my mind went there first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
And to further compound your ignorance, the above passage is talking specifically of what is NOT permitted regardless of value. I deal with Canada 90% of the time, my mind went there first. § 123.17 Exports of firearms, ammunition, and personal protective gear. (a) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of: (1) Parts and components for USML Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or complete breech mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction, except to any of the countries or entities as provided in § 126.1 of this subchapter; (2) Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), complete breech mechanisms, or fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms, when: Note (2) above is EXACTLY what you quoted shown below: Quoted:
Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), complete breech mechanisms, or fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms (ii) The export is to Canada for end-use in Canada or return to the United States, or temporary import into the United States of Canadian-origin items and return to Canada for a Canadian citizen; and OMG, you are wrong again. Whodathunkit? |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:18:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's See: § 123.17 Exports of firearms, ammunition, and personal protective gear. (a) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of: (1) Parts and components for USML Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or complete breech mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction, except to any of the countries or entities as provided in § 126.1 of this subchapter; (2) Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), complete breech mechanisms, or fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms, when: Note (2) above is EXACTLY what you quoted shown below: (i) The total value does not exceed $500 wholesale in any transaction; (ii) The export is to Canada for end-use in Canada or return to the United States, or temporary import into the United States of Canadian-origin items and return to Canada for a Canadian citizen; and OMG, you are wrong again. Whodathunkit? 
So provided the part does not fall underneath any of those headings and are under $500 they don't require an export permit. If they do, or are over $500, they 100% require an export permit. Any questions? Are you done being purposefully ignorant. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:29:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a very important except
So provided the part does not fall underneath any of those headings and are under $500 they don't require an export permit. If they do, or are over $500, they 100% require an export permit. Any questions? Are you done being purposefully ignorant. 0 for 3. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:38:03 PM EDT
[#13]
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That "except" is from the section I told you already you quoted incorrectly. Now you just again quoted incorrectly. 0 for 3. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 9:48:14 PM EDT
[#14]
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Sorry you are grossly incorrect, but feel free to contact HSI and CBP and tell them you have no idea what except means so they are doing their jobs incorrectly 0 for 5. Thanks for the suggestion to call my former staff at HS. Have not gotten together lunch in a while. We will have a good laugh at your posts.... |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 3:02:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Exemptions don't apply to excluded items, it saddens me this escapes you.
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Posted: 3/17/2017 3:42:25 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm going to go with RenegadeX
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Posted: 3/17/2017 12:01:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to go with RenegadeX The problem with quoting small sections of many laws is that OTHER sections may still apply. Hitlery did the same thing. They quoted the first few parts of U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 37 § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information They failed to read down to (f). The exact section she violated. |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 12:29:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to go with RenegadeX Am I legally allowed to sell and ship a folding back-up iron site to an individual in Finland? Not Canada, or any other country, but Finland. If it makes any difference, as I saw something about $100 value mentioned, the sale amount with shipping included was $90, so under $100. |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 3:27:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Am I legally allowed to sell and ship a folding back-up iron site to an individual in Finland? Not Canada, or any other country, but Finland. If it makes any difference, as I saw something about $100 value mentioned, the sale amount with shipping included was $90, so under $100. Is the part named on the US Munitions List? No. So right there - GTG. But even if it was on the USML, you could use the following to decide if it was still exportable without a license: I§ 123.17 Exports of firearms, ammunition, and personal protective gear. (a) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of: (1) Parts and components for USML Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or complete breech mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction, except to any of the countries or entities as provided in § 126.1 of this subchapter; 1) Is is a part or component for a USML Category 1(a) firearm? Yes. 2) Is it a barrel, cylinder, receiver or complete breech mechanism? No. 3) Does the total value exceed $100? No. 4) Are you sending it to a prohibited country in 126.1? No. Keep in mind this only address US ITAR export issues. It could still be illegal or subject to tax/tariff based on treaties, customs export laws, Finish law, EU tariffs, etc. |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 6:07:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When it comes to matters of law, if you are unable to research this yourself and decide, but have to rely opinions from unknown people on the Internet, you are are making a mistake and should just walk away. However using their opinions as an opening basis to research the law is fine, as you have to start somewhere. I start with Google "ITAR". Here is the flow chart I myself use to decide, feel free to use to research the applicable laws: Is the part named on the US Munitions List? No. So right there - GTG. But even if it was on the USML, you could use the following to decide if it was still exportable without a license: I§ 123.17 Exports of firearms, ammunition, and personal protective gear. (a) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of: (1) Parts and components for USML Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or complete breech mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction, except to any of the countries or entities as provided in § 126.1 of this subchapter; 1) Is is a part or component for a USML Category 1(a) firearm? Yes. 2) Is it a barrel, cylinder, receiver or complete breech mechanism? No. 3) Does the total value exceed $100? No. 4) Are you sending it to a prohibited country in 126.1? No. Keep in mind this only address US ITAR export issues. It could still be illegal or subject to tax/tariff based on treaties, customs export laws, Finish law, EU tariffs, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Am I legally allowed to sell and ship a folding back-up iron site to an individual in Finland? Not Canada, or any other country, but Finland. If it makes any difference, as I saw something about $100 value mentioned, the sale amount with shipping included was $90, so under $100. Is the part named on the US Munitions List? No. So right there - GTG. But even if it was on the USML, you could use the following to decide if it was still exportable without a license: I§ 123.17 Exports of firearms, ammunition, and personal protective gear. (a) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of: (1) Parts and components for USML Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or complete breech mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction, except to any of the countries or entities as provided in § 126.1 of this subchapter; 1) Is is a part or component for a USML Category 1(a) firearm? Yes. 2) Is it a barrel, cylinder, receiver or complete breech mechanism? No. 3) Does the total value exceed $100? No. 4) Are you sending it to a prohibited country in 126.1? No. Keep in mind this only address US ITAR export issues. It could still be illegal or subject to tax/tariff based on treaties, customs export laws, Finish law, EU tariffs, etc. Like I said in my post yesterday, I've already refunded the buyer and decided not to go through with the transaction, just to stay 100% on the safe side. I do appreciate your knowledge and insight regarding the matter. It was very helpful and might possibly help others in the future. 
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Posted: 3/17/2017 7:31:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For someone who doesn't typically spend their days trying to read and comprehend international export laws and regulations, something such as ITAR can easily become quite overwhelming. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 2:14:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, and it is ridiculous there is any debate over a BUIS. The law is very outdated, and really needs to be re-visited to exclude things that are now common household items, literally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For someone who doesn't typically spend their days trying to read and comprehend international export laws and regulations, something such as ITAR can easily become quite overwhelming. I used to test parts [mostly electronics but sometimes materials] for use on satellites. We ended up hiring an attorney on jobs that involved 'exporting' the data to non-USA entities. It was a nightmare. The Department of State attorneys had NO IDEA what they where doing. No knowledge of physics or radiation. Some of them could not even understand the terms in the law. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 11:31:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, and it is ridiculous there is any debate over a BUIS. The law is very outdated, and really needs to be re-visited to exclude things that are now common household items, literally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For someone who doesn't typically spend their days trying to read and comprehend international export laws and regulations, something such as ITAR can easily become quite overwhelming. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 1:06:09 PM EDT
[#24]
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You're right, but in my opinion it's better safe than sorry. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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For someone who doesn't typically spend their days trying to read and comprehend international export laws and regulations, something such as ITAR can easily become quite overwhelming. They also do not want to pay trhe ridiculouse ITAR registration fee. Many are probbaly trying to slip by that one. It does not matter if you do not INTEND to deal in ITAR items. You are supposed to register if you deal with selling anything covered by ITAR under State Department rules. I tested parts for radiation affects. We argued over and over (and won) that the parts did NOT meet the legal requirement of being 'Radiation Hard' as defined in the law. For the most part we could make almost ANY part exhibit Single Event Effects (SEE) to ionizing radiation. At the same time our analysis of the effects was restricted. We tested parts for the European Space Consortium but could not analyze the test results and make recommendations to them. We just ran the tests and collected the data. The customer had to figure out how to analyze it. The SW we designed and developed was ITAR restricted. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 5:15:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
....You are supposed to register if you deal with selling anything covered by ITAR under State Department rules... If registration is required for simply SELLING.....there's about 56,000 01FFL's not in compliance.
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Posted: 3/27/2017 12:02:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is my understanding that registration is only required when you manufacture or export items on the Munitions List. If registration is required for simply SELLING.....there's about 56,000 01FFL's not in compliance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
....You are supposed to register if you deal with selling anything covered by ITAR under State Department rules... If registration is required for simply SELLING.....there's about 56,000 01FFL's not in compliance. |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:16:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DoS would like to to be for simply manufacturing and selling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
....You are supposed to register if you deal with selling anything covered by ITAR under State Department rules... If registration is required for simply SELLING.....there's about 56,000 01FFL's not in compliance. If you are please provide a cite to that requirement. |
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Posted: 4/1/2017 12:31:16 PM EDT
[#28]
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/registration/
All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List
(Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing, exporting and brokering activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export. |
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Posted: 4/1/2017 1:56:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/registration/ And you have to use the DOS definition of "manufacturer." Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/registration/ All manufacturers, exporters, and brokers of defense articles, related technical data and defense services as defined on the United States Munitions List
(Part 121 of the ITAR) (PDF, 7MB) are required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing, exporting and brokering activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges, but is a precondition for the issuance of any license or other approval for export. |
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Posted: 4/1/2017 4:57:16 PM EDT
[#30]
Brokers = sellers.
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Posted: 4/1/2017 5:19:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Brokers = sellers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Brokers = sellers. That's funny. The State Dep disagrees: § 129.2 Definitions. (a) Broker means any person who acts as an agent for others in negotiating or arranging contracts, purchases, sales or transfers of defense articles or defense services in return for a fee, commission, or other consideration. (b) Brokering activities means acting as a broker as defined in § 129.2(a), and includes the financing, transportation, freight forwarding, or taking of any other action that facilitates the manufacture, export, or import or a defense article or defense service, irrespective of its origin. For example, this includes, but is not limited to, activities by U.S. persons who are located inside or outside of the United States or foreign persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction involving defense articles or defense services of U.S. or foreign origin which are located inside or outside of the United States. But, this does not include activities by U.S. persons that are limited exclusively to U.S. domestic sales or transfers (e.g., not for export or re-transfer in the United States or to a foreign person). For the purposes of this subchapter, engaging in the business of brokering activities requires only one action as described above. (c) The term ‘‘foreign defense article or defense service’’ includes any non- United States defense article or defense service of a nature described on the United States Munitions List regardless of whether such article or service is of United States origin or whether such article or service contains United States origin components. [62 FR 67276, Dec. 24, 1997, as amended at 71 FR 20553, Apr. 21, 2006] |
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Posted: 4/2/2017 11:04:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Salesmen are a subset of brokers.
A common distinction is that in many cases brokers never take possession of the item. DOS has been clumsy and stupid in its definitions. They know nothing about what it takes to manufacture an item. |
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Posted: 4/2/2017 1:06:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Salesmen are a subset of brokers.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Salesmen are a subset of brokers.... Brokering activities are spelled out quite clearly. I asked you for a cite that confirms your claim that "Selling" requires ITAR registration. I posted the above that disagrees with your claim, now its a "subset"? Wrong. ITAR registration for "Sellers" is clearly not required for domestic sales of ITAR items. The relevant portions highlighted below. (b) Brokering activities means acting
as a broker as defined in § 129.2(a), and includes the financing, transportation, freight forwarding, or taking of any other action that facilitates the manufacture, export, or import or a defense article or defense service, irrespective of its origin. For example, this includes, but is not limited to, activities by U.S. persons who are located inside or outside of the United States or foreign persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction involving defense articles or defense services of U.S. or foreign origin which are located inside or outside of the United States. But, this does not include activities by U.S. persons that are limited exclusively to U.S. domestic sales or transfers (e.g., not for export or re-transfer in the United States or to a foreign person)......... |
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Posted: 4/2/2017 1:22:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Dogtown is correct, brokers != any seller of ITAR item. What an administrative nightmare that would be....
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Posted: 4/2/2017 8:56:02 PM EDT
[#35]
All of ITAR is a nightmare.
We spent years going round and round with ITAR folks at DOS. We tested parts for radiation susceptibility for use on satellites. ITAR has specific definitions of "radiation resistance" for parts. It has both total dose criteria and dose rate criteria. None of the parts we tested would meet the criteria and we did not test them to the criteria. We had developed analysis methods that ITAR still restricted. We could test parts and provide results but no analysis of the results was allowed to be given to non-US persons. I still have software on my computers that is ITAR restricted. A non-US entity cannot even see the SW, or its output. DOS would even send 'observers' to some of our cyclotron test to make sure we did not provide restricted information. I had this perverse desire to try and have them get a decent radiation dose. One of them left when told they had to wear a dosimeter to make sure they did not get exposed. A dosimeter only tells you after the fact you screwed up. |
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