Well, the 10 is a great performer, but the reality is i do prefer to carry the 45. way back when, my ideal pistol was a 4006, which i never did get. i didn`t persue owning a 40 since i was never convinced of any advantage over 45, all things concidered(including cost of target ammo) the delta (and a brief stint with a glock 40) were mostly because of right deal at right time and wanted to try them both. have to say i do like both also, just have this "thing" going for 1911`s.i wanted to relate, that none of the local pd`s allow caliber above 40.(not sure about city of buffalo) the nys police did have glock 9`s, but i think they have gone to 40`s now. glock was on nys contract may still be. some of the other state agencies issue either, depending on the dept leadership.most local & sherrifs allow personal choice which is usually glock 40 as long as officers stay within dept guidelines(recommended carry)i think we`ve had a good discusion on this post..maybe didn`t solve anything, but it was fun for me.. thanks!........[pistol]

Pahleese.  230gr is the highest rated stopper?  I'd re-look at that study.  Why does everyone compare the .40 150gr +p loads to the slow heavy .45 230grain loads?  Let's compare apples and apples.  The 165-180+P .45 is a fair comparison to the .40, or else compare the 230gr to a .40 with a 200gr bullet.

The .45 (when packed with the correct load) is CLEARLY superior to the .40  If you can handle the larger frame, go for it.  I find the .40 more easily concealed, and as such, I refer to rule #1  Always bring a gun to a gunfight.

I'd rather have the .40 on me than the .45 at home in the desk.  But then again, I don't feel even slightly undergunned with the .40

Black&green, you have opened up a huge can of worms. Most people refer to the .40 as in between the 9 and .45. It is realy alot closer to the .45. The .40 was not actually the 9mm made bigger it was the other way around. The F.B.I. wanted better performance than the .45. What they got was the 10mm. This is an awesome round. It got a bad rap from the bren ten pistols. When it was introduced it was loaded back for controllability and subsonic rreasons. S&W saw this as an opportunity. The .40 S&W was born. The first convert pistol was actually the .41 AE. Which is a .40 S&W with rebated case head to fit 9mm actions with a barrel and mag change. The .40 is a great round I carry one all the time and don't feel under powered at all. Shot placement means more. I also have a Colt Delta Elite 10MM auto. That is my favorite handgun period. It has great power and can clover leaf three or more rounds at respectable ranges. Onr more thing, the .40 loaded with lighter bullets and higher velocity has more reliable bullet expansion then the slower .45.

7mmmag, what has better expansion and makes a bigger hole, a 150gr .40 +P, or a 165 .45 +P????

Here is something interesting:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm

Sectional Density: Rule-of-thumb Guide for Estimating Terminal Performance

         Sectional density is a bullet's weight in pounds divided by the square of its diameter in inches. It plays an important role in bullet
         penetration. Bullets with greater sectional density tend to penetrate deeper.

         As a rule-of-thumb guideline, sectional density can be used estimate and compare penetration performance. Bullets of similar
         sectional densities, propelled at similar velocities, and exhibiting similar percentages of expansion tend to penetrate to similar
         depths.

         In the late 1980's the FBI adopted a reduced velocity 10mm 180gr cartridge. Many critics, gun writer and non-gun writer alike,
         voiced an opinion in which they believed the FBI had simply reinvented the .45 ACP 185gr cartridge. These critics apparently
         didn't understand the concept of sectional density. What the FBI adopted was essentially a .45 ACP 230gr bullet that was
         propelled about 100 fps faster, which gave the FBI the penetration performance it desired.

         With few exceptions, most JHP bullets expand to between 150 and 180 percent of their pre-fired diameters. You'll notice in the
         table below that bullets considered heavy-weight, middle-weight and light-weight for their respective calibers and cartridge
         loadings all share similar sectional densities.

         Heavy-weight bullets in .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9mm all share a similar trait: their sectional densities are alike, all are propelled
         at similar subsonic velocities, all demonstrate similar expansion performance and all penetrate to approximately the same
         depths. The same is true for middle-weight and light-weight bullets in these same calibers.

    Want to know why everyone is so pissed when this topic comes up?  It's b/c they've spent hundreds of dollars on a weapon which they are now being told is inferior to another which they considered.  Personally, I think this whole discussion is BS.  I actually tried to find a .45 that fit my smaller hands & frame but they were all too bulky & unwieldy.  The one's that had smaller frames had awkward grips - something I hate.  I mean if power is what you want go buy a .50 cal Desert Eagle and STFU.  It's about control for me.  My USPc .40 fits my hand like a glove.  Pick the right load and I'll place a bullet anywhere a 9 or a 45 can or kill just as effectively as a 9 or a 45.  
   Oh, and as for you idiots who still talk about what load you want when the SHTF b/c of "what will be laying around," shut it for once w/ your ridiculous GI JOE fantasies.  If "what's laying around" consists of dead LEO's & looted Wal-mart stocks, there will be piles & piles of .40 for you pick up off the ground lol.  Last time I checked, not many LE agencies, at least in Texas use .45 - they mostly use .40 down here.

.45


Hunter out...

And on what basis do you conclude that the .45 is "clearly superior" to the .40?  The reason I listed the 230-grain Hydra-shok in my earlier post is because it is the best performer in gunfights of any .45 load per the Marshall and Sanow study, including the 185-grain +P loads.  Maybe in your head it's "clearly superior", and if that's so, carry a .45 with confidence.  I do most of the time.  However, I don't think the results of actual gunfights bear out the .45's "clear superiority".  If you have some facts to back up that claim, I'd truly like to hear them.

And the Winchester 155-grain Silvertip I listed is not a +P load, it is a standard-pressure .40 load.  The standard operating pressure of the .40 is considerably higher than the .45, but the load listed is not "+P".

Make mine a .45.

The Marshal studies have been proven to be 100% bunk.  So many other variables are involved that they do not cover.

The Marshal study does not even differentiate between a spine shot and a heart shot victim.  The former will drop on the spot while the latter could continue for another 30 seconds.

Unless you are about to argue that the .45 165gr  +P load will not adequately penetrate, then it is in fact a superior load.  Heavier bullet, larger frontal cross section, more foot pounds of energy.  Please explain (other than sectional density which is not relevant unless the .45 underpenetrates) how the .40 beats the 165-180gr .45 load in any way.

Call me crazy, I am playing devil's advocate here as I do carry the .40 and the differences are so slight as to me less than marginal.  But I do think the .45 light loads will stop better than the .40

As for real stopping power, I think this should be defined as how quickly you can draw and shoot the suspect in the head/spine before he shoots you.  Been practicing the paper plates and brought my time (drawing from fully concealed inside pants holster) from 13 seconds to 8, double tapping 4 paper plates spaced 5 feet apart all at a distance of 21'

This whole discussion is moot if you can't hit your target (and I'm not talking slow fire at a static target).

Really?  What other studies have 'proven' the Marshall/Sanow study to be 'absolute bunk'?  I still haven't heard anything but your opinion.

The .40 has a couple of advantages over the .45acp:
1. The primary one is that you get the advantage of utilizing some of the excellent auto pisto designs that were developed for the 9mm.  Smaller physical size, double action, etc.  I have a CZ-75 in .40 cal and I figure I have the best design in the world in an auto pistol with damn near a .45's performance.  I also carry a Sphinx compact .40 which again with Corbon gives me .45 class power in a nice compact double action pistol.  Yea, I know the Commander .45 is nice too but still single action and fewer rounds.  

2. Generally higher capacity with a double stack mag in a .40 cal.  

The good .40 cal rounds like Corbon are just about equivalent to the .45acp although the Remington 185 gr. +P has the edge but not by much for all practical purposes.  I also have a 10mm Glock 20 and if I want max power I think the 10mm is the one to have.  In the end the .45acp is the standard we measure everything by so nothing wrong with it for damn sure.  Sort of like my red C5 Corvette coupe, a lot of guys put it down because it is made by Chevrolet but with a 0-60 if 5.4, top speed of 175, and 31mph on the freeway and a Bose stereo it is still the old standard they have to beat :)

HEY.45 GUYS (YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO LOVE ME FOR THIS ONE) GET WITH THE TIMES!!SLAP,SLAP, THE BIG THING IS SO SLOW ALL YOU GOTA DO IS STEP ASIDE TO DODGE THE BULLET. THIS IS THE YEAR 2001 NOT 1911. BY THE WAY I DO SHOOT IPSC, DONT SHOOT A 1911 BUT  STILL IN A-CLASS.

Boy, do I feel better!!!  I just dug up a couple of articles in the APRIL 2000 issue of HANDGUNS magazine.

The 1st one is on page 46 and deals with the Top 10 Self-Defense and Police handgun loads.  3 of the Top 10 are in caliber .40 S&W.
#1--155-gr. Federal Hydra-Shok; #6--135-gr. Triton & Cor-Bon; #10--180-gr. Federal Hydra-Shok.

The .357 Magnum 125-gr. Federal JHP came in 2nd.

The .45ACP 230-gr Federal Hydra-shok was 3rd.
The .45ACP Remington 185-gr. Golden Saber +P, 4th.


The 2nd article, on page 60, was about the U.S. Border Patrol/INS project in choosing a new sidearm and caliber.
Long story short:  Beretta 96D (DAO) Brigadier (Beefed up slide over the locking lugs);  Remington 155-gr. JHP .40 S&W.

The article explained why they chose this combination in accordance with their specific mission parameters, being somewhat unique in American Law Enforcement, in that the ranges shots are fired are more often than not extended.  Bottom line---the .40 does things neither the 9MM or the .45ACP are capable of doing, in this Departments views, with regard to striking a balance between energy/momentum and stopping power/controllability.
The article explained that the evaluations were exhaustive both for the projectile and the launcher.
Since I have chosen likewise without the benefit of their knowledge and expertise, not to mention the $$$$$$$$$$$ it must have cost to figure out what they wanted, I feel pretty damn good!!!
I will celebrate by buying a case of the recommended ammo ASAP.
I TOLD you S&W meant "Sheetmtal & Windshields"!

For all the .40 S&W shooters out there---CHEERS!