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Lon_Moer
"Reagan Country" is dead
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Posted: 2/3/2010 5:39:10 PM EST
I found it amusing that American Rifleman did a 'Top Ten Handguns' story and didn't include the Beretta.
The next month there was a letter from Mr. Beretta and a multi-page article from Massad Ayoob about how wrong they were for not including the Beretta.
I also enjoyed the article.
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Desecrate the population, There will be no exaltation
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Mike_314
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Posted: 2/3/2010 5:43:33 PM EST
I took LFI-I a long time ago.

It was a good experience and a lot of useful information.
Most courses, especially at that time, were long on shooting and short on legal implications and attitude.
Ayoob also spent some time on how avoid fights - an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of lead.
Plus the saftey habits I learned on his range have served me every time I handle a firearm.

He is a bit blustry and dramatic, but he does have a solid knowledge of what he is talking about and experience too.
ARinKCMO
"The truth is...."
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Posted: 2/3/2010 6:39:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By joker581:
Originally Posted By wesmerc:
Never heard anything negative about him on ARFCOM. I dont really pay attention to the author most of the time but doesnt he write for SWAT?


There was a pretty big thread here a few years ago where a number of people jumped on him for a number of things ranging from what they believed to be misleading remarks about his scores in matches to alleged events where he'd been drunk at matches. I pointed out a few misleading(IMO) statements in one of his books that seemed to imply that he'd been in some gunfights but he clarified that he'd never been in any and that his intent was not to imply that he had.

He did show up here to argue in that thread and, IIRC, he stuck around for a little while afterwards, but he isn't active here as far as I know. I don't recall ever seeing anything from him in SWAT in the last 10 years or so.


That was quite the epic thread! Answered a lot of the 'myths' and showed that he can definitely dish it out around here! I printed that thread out, it was that good!
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hoss622
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Posted: 2/3/2010 6:59:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
When he joined here to argue that was classic, and then someone bought him a membership and he never came back.




I weighed in on that classic thread, that he had a tendency to write about winning IDPA matches for which he was the only shooter in his class and division. For example, First Place Master, Stock Service Revolver. Not so much of an accomplishment when you would look at the match results and see that he was the only Master shooting Stock Service Revolver. The fact that he did this in magazine articles as a way of showing how great the gun was that he was writing about is, what ticked me off.

I related my own experience, as I had recently been an SSR state champion, but that it was a dubious accomplishment in light of the lack of competitors. For example, I beat my 65 year old father, a girl or two, and even a one armed man. He took this opportunity to call me out by real name (he looked up my state's match results), figuring I was lying about who I am. Of course, I wasn't, as it wasn't some great accomplishment, and acknowledged that that the named shooter was me. Sort of a crappy thing to do, putting up someone's full name in a forum like this.

Anyway, he couldn't refute what I had to say, as it was the truth.

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Meadowmuffin
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Posted: 2/4/2010 6:43:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By piccolo:
The reason Masaad Ayoob sounds like he's the Peppridge Farms guy is because he was a NEW HAMPSHIRE policeman for quite some time.

If you were one, you'd sound the same damned way.

Get over it.



I know that. I was kidding. Folks in Massachusettes like to make fun of folks in New Hampshire, and we are good at it, to the point that New Hampshirites seem to have an inferiority complex. But in the end we love new hampster, especially for their state liquore stores open on Sundays. Masshole folks love New Hampshire so much that they have migrated over filling in the southern part of the NH while commuting to Boston, not to mention voting liberal in every election.
FAIL-SAFE
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Posted: 2/4/2010 8:58:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2010 8:59:17 AM EST by FAIL-SAFE]
I still never cared for his saying people shouldnt used 1911s because of possible perception, yet at the time he did a shitload of articles on them. I understand he's changed his tune, but oh well. He also still is big on the debunked One Shot Stop percentages.

Team Member Rampant Colt called him on these gems:

http://i28.tinypic.com/28c0goj.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2uyob47.jpg
*hopefully someone will do all the coding so the pictures will be viewable.


I dont hate Massad Ayoob. I just dont agree with some of things he says, especially when factual data doesnt back his claims up.


ETA: that whole argument about the Miami Shootout in 1986 between he and Shawn Dodson was full retard.
Blackhawk101
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Posted: 2/4/2010 11:45:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2010 11:47:46 AM EST by Blackhawk101]
Ayoob is like something you know is probably bebenficial but still tastes bad.

The thing I find distasteful is his blatant self-promotion and knee-jerk analysis of many shooting incidents. His writing style of these incidents is a lot more colorful then they need to be (i.e. "The perp jumped up screaming "I give up" as blood flowed from a ragged scar in his head").

His other problem with his analysys of shooting incidents is, quite frankly, he normally doesnt have a clue what really happened. My understanding is thatmany PDs consider him a feckless journalist intent on proving how they screwed up- as such they dont really share any data with him.

What really killed my shine for Ayoob was the devastating errors he made in his analysis of the Miami gunfight between the FBI and Platt and Matix. Ayoob originally published his take on the fight to include various references that he was being given inside information direct from the FBI. This was shown to be patently false when Dr Anserson's forensic analysis of the fight was published. Ayoob then went back and re-wrote his AAR on this fight incorporating the correct information from Dr Anderson and has tried to pretend his previously made up information does not exist.

Here is a link to a pretty good compare/contrast between what Ayoob originally wrote and Dr Anderson's research. Some of it is just so far off base that it cannot be attributed to anything but self-promotion and outright lies to push an agenda.

I mean come on- he couldnt even get the ammo load out of the FBI agents correct!

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs8.htm

Just that above throws into doubt every AAR ever written by Ayoob in my mind. While some of his tactical advice may be sound I would be very careful of any incident that he writes about as it relates to what actually happened along with any conclusions drawn by him in order to fit into his neat littlw world.
Facts are like kryptonite to liberals.
Tac22
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Posted: 2/4/2010 11:46:39 AM EST
His name spelled backwards is Dassam Booya!

I always enjoy his segmets on tv.
Hoodooman
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Posted: 2/4/2010 11:49:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By GetGunz:
Originally Posted By thelaw09:
I'll read anything he writes. Always interesting.


Me too. I have been reading his work for probably 25 years.


+1 That's probably about how long I been reading his stuff.
rob78
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Posted: 2/4/2010 11:52:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2010 12:04:20 PM EST by rob78]
Originally Posted By ARinKCMO:
Originally Posted By joker581:
Originally Posted By wesmerc:
Never heard anything negative about him on ARFCOM. I dont really pay attention to the author most of the time but doesnt he write for SWAT?


There was a pretty big thread here a few years ago where a number of people jumped on him for a number of things ranging from what they believed to be misleading remarks about his scores in matches to alleged events where he'd been drunk at matches. I pointed out a few misleading(IMO) statements in one of his books that seemed to imply that he'd been in some gunfights but he clarified that he'd never been in any and that his intent was not to imply that he had.

He did show up here to argue in that thread and, IIRC, he stuck around for a little while afterwards, but he isn't active here as far as I know. I don't recall ever seeing anything from him in SWAT in the last 10 years or so.


That was quite the epic thread! Answered a lot of the 'myths' and showed that he can definitely dish it out around here! I printed that thread out, it was that good!


Good Thread.


But a terrible day for Arfcom. The amount of unsubstantiated rumor spewed by a few members was downright embarassing.

ETA: poster Blackhawk has an interesting link in his post. Sanow and Ayoob made fairly serious errors re: Miami shootout. While it casts some doubt, I read every gunwriter's assessment with a grain of salt.
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LuvBUSHmaster
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Posted: 2/4/2010 11:56:32 AM EST
He has presented some information that is incorrect in regards to using handloads for self defense.

All of the cases that he cited had zilch to do with handloads being used in a self defense shooting situation.

He may bring some good things to the shooting community, but legal advice is not one of them.
"There comes a time when every man feels the urge to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, & start slitting throats" Mencken

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Jonny_Flashbang
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Posted: 2/4/2010 11:59:43 AM EST
Why cant this thread be about Chris & Travis?
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GLOCKREAPER
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Posted: 2/4/2010 12:15:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
I still never cared for his saying people shouldnt used 1911s because of possible perception, yet at the time he did a shitload of articles on them. I understand he's changed his tune, but oh well. He also still is big on the debunked One Shot Stop percentages.

Team Member Rampant Colt called him on these gems:




*hopefully someone will do all the coding so the pictures will be viewable.


I dont hate Massad Ayoob. I just dont agree with some of things he says, especially when factual data doesnt back his claims up.


ETA: that whole argument about the Miami Shootout in 1986 between he and Shawn Dodson was full retard.


Meadowmuffin
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:01:24 PM EST
I wants to hear more about the smelly stuff.

Honestly, his tactical advice I have found usefull, but when it comes to handloads and monday morning quarterbacking of past situations, my opinion is that assholes and opinions abound and everyone is entitled to one of each.
53vortec
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:16:34 PM EST
I don't agree with his writings regarding ballistics - then again I've yet to see a gun writer this side of Allan Jones that I do.

From what I understand he's got some damned good training and I've really considered going to one of his course, but when it comes to reviews of firearms or ammunition, I tend to skip over his articles.
Order some golf shoes... otherwise we'll never get out of this place alive

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Dr_Dickie
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:18:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/4/2010 1:20:01 PM EST by Dr_Dickie]

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
I look forward every other month in American Handgunner.

HH
Yup, he an Conner are the highlights.
I also shoot IDPA with Mas, he is damn decent nice guy, and good shooter.

Repeal the 17th Amendment.
A right should restrict the government, not obligate it!
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Chris19delta
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:25:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spartanatheart:
Originally Posted By HellifIknow:
I don't understand all the hate on him.

Seems like a decent guy. His writing makes sense.



Well his name does sound like a cohort of Bin Laden.


prove hes not one
LE6920
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:26:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By omega62:
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By piccolo:
The reason Masaad Ayoob sounds like he's the Peppridge Farms guy is because he was a NEW HAMPSHIRE policeman for quite some time.

If you were one, you'd sound the same damned way.

Get over it.


Wasn't he an honorary/reserve type LEO in NH? Only worked once in a great while?


Holds rank as Captain in the Grantham, NH department.



It appears Grantham has one full time officer, one Cpl, one Sgt, and a Chief.

http://www.granthamnh.net/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={D1294425-8B5C-4577-B085-95629B43D2F9}&DE={867D2927-797A-4B1A-B574-36CBD41D23A6}

Looks honorary or part time to me, doesn't he live in FL?

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ScopeScar
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:32:41 PM EST
His name ends in oob, which rhymes with boob, what's not to like?
JCoop
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:50:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Meadowmuffin:




I know that. I was kidding. Folks in Massachusettes like to make fun of folks in New Hampshire, and we are good at it, to the point that New Hampshirites seem to have an inferiority complex . But in the end we love new hampster, especially for their state liquore stores open on Sundays. Masshole folks love New Hampshire so much that they have migrated over filling in the southern part of the NH while commuting to Boston, not to mention voting liberal in every election.
Y'all might make fun of us but you have absolutely zilch over us in the humor department. mASSholes are the butt of humor up here so much that some people do it as a full time job!

None of you can drive worth a damn. GET OUT OF THE LEFT LANE! Stop the pass me at 90, slow to 50, pass me at 90, slow to 50 sort of dumb ass city driving you people do down there! CRUISE CONTROL, dammit! Stop moving here and voting liberal - we're starting to get a reputation. Stop insisting on higher taxes. Stop demanding services. This is New Hampshire - we don't have no stinking services. We need to have all of you people take a class before you move here. Teach you the right way to think.

And I think Ayoob was a chief of police in southern NH somewhere. I might be wrong. Nothing but respect for him in my neck of the woods.

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raysheen
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:52:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By AROptics:
Originally Posted By oulufinn:
Lots of hate for him here. Seems like a pretty solid guy.


No hate here. Respect.
Indeed...same here.
I don't agree with everything he says regarding self defense shootings, but I sure would like to take some of the LFI courses just the same.

txcop893
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Posted: 2/4/2010 1:54:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:
Why cant this thread be about Chris & Travis?


HAHAHA!!!!!!....your killin' me....
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Dont blame me.....I voted for the American.

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omega62
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Posted: 2/4/2010 2:43:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By omega62:
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By piccolo:
The reason Masaad Ayoob sounds like he's the Peppridge Farms guy is because he was a NEW HAMPSHIRE policeman for quite some time.

If you were one, you'd sound the same damned way.

Get over it.


Wasn't he an honorary/reserve type LEO in NH? Only worked once in a great while?


Holds rank as Captain in the Grantham, NH department.



It appears Grantham has one full time officer, one Cpl, one Sgt, and a Chief.

http://www.granthamnh.net/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={D1294425-8B5C-4577-B085-95629B43D2F9}&DE={867D2927-797A-4B1A-B574-36CBD41D23A6}

Looks honorary or part time to me, doesn't he live in FL?



It was probably part time or "honorary" position. He may have moved on since as you note.

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Meadowmuffin
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Posted: 2/24/2010 12:54:39 PM EST
Hey I just saw his stress fire pistol video. Some darned good stuff in there.

I noticed heavy breathing though. Is he a smoker? Just curious.
VA-gunnut
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Posted: 2/24/2010 1:07:07 PM EST
I took LFI-I several years ago, and I enjoyed the class.
Have you visited your Hometown Forum today?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=8

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HoustonHusker
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Posted: 2/24/2010 1:25:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dr_Dickie:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
I look forward every other month in American Handgunner.

HH
Yup, he an Conner are the highlights.
I also shoot IDPA with Mas, he is damn decent nice guy, and good shooter.



Conner is a hoot! I always enjoy Alex Hamilton's gunsmithing articles, too.

HH
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

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Remman
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Posted: 2/24/2010 1:54:54 PM EST
tag
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colklink
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:00:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spartanatheart:
Originally Posted By HellifIknow:
I don't understand all the hate on him.

Seems like a decent guy. His writing makes sense.



Well his name does sound like a cohort of Bin Laden.


Actually his is one of the coolest names I have ever heard. If I ever have a boy, his name will be Massad Ayoob. Just rolls off the tounque
HoustonHusker
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:08:36 PM EST
Tell ya what...if I'm ever in a SD shooting incident, it'd sure be nice if things got hairy to have him on my side in court.

HH
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

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SDavid
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:19:28 PM EST
Just remember if you ever take one of Bobo’s courses and don’t like it his name is Massad Ayoob.
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colklink
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:20:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By juan223:
Most folks here and in the gun world in general like to thumb their noses at instructors because they have never taken any real instruction when it comes to using firearms in a defensive manner.

Most American males don't feel they need any instruction in much of anything, most have the attitude that when they dropped out of the womb they could already drive like Mario Andretti, fuck like Ron Jeremy, and shoot like Wyatt Earp... you cannot teach them a thing...

But the fact is, you don't know, what you don't know.



Aint that the truth. When I worked at a gunstore, we had flyers on the counter from a few local people that gave basic pistol classes to get your CCW, and one guy that taught a couple of more advanced self defense pistol classes. All kinds of " why the hell would I want to spend $150 on a class for " comments. Some people just dont get that its a martial art that needs to be learned like any other.
spoonrobot
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:23:24 PM EST
skunk-ape
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:23:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By NineLivez:
Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:
I look forward every other month in American Handgunner.

HH


This, and he is the main reason I watch PDTV

this^^^^^^^
Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean.
I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.
Muerte
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Posted: 2/24/2010 2:26:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
When he joined here to argue that was classic, and then someone bought him a membership and he never came back.




This True!!
Miami_JBT
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Posted: 2/24/2010 3:12:46 PM EST
He's a Reserve Police Officer with Grantham PD. A Captain if I remember correctly.

Being a Reserve Officer isn't a Honorary thing. You have to attend the same academy, do the same FTO Program, etc....

The PD I'm with has many reserve officers. We have two guys that live in Georgia. Guess what.... they still come down every month and do their required 16 hours. I started my career as a reserve cop. Don't dis reserves..... they work just as hard if not harder to wear the badge.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 3:14:08 PM EST
Ever notice Ayoob is Booya spelled backwards?
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Bama-Shooter
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Posted: 2/24/2010 3:15:42 PM EST
He shaped a lot of the way I am today.
American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.

3%er

Any opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect upon any agency or orginization which I may be employed or affiliated.
all4freedom
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Posted: 2/24/2010 3:53:07 PM EST
Tag for all the threads where Ayoob PWNS all the dipshits that call him out on incorrect facts.

The all time best was the one where he says something like "One, I never said that, two, half the people on page 7 have me confused with Gabe Suarez....." HAHAHAHA.
"If you're not shooting you should be loading, if you're not loading you should be moving, if you're not moving, someone is gonna cut off your head and put it on a stick...." -Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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bluetick357
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Posted: 2/24/2010 3:59:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By GLOCKREAPER:

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
I still never cared for his saying people shouldnt used 1911s because of possible perception, yet at the time he did a shitload of articles on them. I understand he's changed his tune, but oh well. He also still is big on the debunked One Shot Stop percentages.

Team Member Rampant Colt called him on these gems:

http://i28.tinypic.com/28c0goj.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2uyob47.jpg
*hopefully someone will do all the coding so the pictures will be viewable.


I dont hate Massad Ayoob. I just dont agree with some of things he says, especially when factual data doesnt back his claims up.


ETA: that whole argument about the Miami Shootout in 1986 between he and Shawn Dodson was full retard.




Yep,don't make Zhukov choke a bitch
30calslut
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Posted: 2/24/2010 4:03:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
I found it amusing that American Rifleman did a 'Top Ten Handguns' story and didn't include the Beretta.
The next month there was a letter from Mr. Beretta and a multi-page article from Massad Ayoob about how wrong they were for not including the Beretta.
I also enjoyed the article.

That is too funny.

I took LFI-I with Mas a few years ago ... and he was blasting away with his Beretta, and shooting it quite accurately I might add.

Good guy, very funny too!
Giltweasel
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Posted: 2/24/2010 4:58:45 PM EST
Last I read of him he was a Marshall & Sanow adherent. Their "data" is questionable in many regards so I hold anyone that doesn't look at it critically to a lower threshold on the bullshit meter.

I like his writing for Backwoods Home. Good stuff for people generally unfamiliar with firearms.

His other by-lines not so much.
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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:00:49 PM EST
Didn't he once write that if you stay in a good hotel, you'll have a better chance of avoiding crime than if you stay in a bad hotel?

Can't argue with that sage advice.
Echo2
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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:20:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
Masaad has personally answered an e-mail I sent and his response was friendly, helpful and very valuable. I enjoy everything of his I've read and all the vids I've seen him in.



same here...wrote me back from an inqury through "backwoods home magazine".

he writes a great bi monthly artical for them about guns for the frugal homesteader....and off grid folks....definitly worth looking into...had a subscription for 6 yrs now.
Falar
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Posted: 2/24/2010 5:26:44 PM EST
He is good for the cause as a whole but he needs to stop even trying to discuss terminal ballistics. Someone above already posted the pics.
dbd870
which way to the classifieds
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Posted: 2/25/2010 1:50:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2010 1:52:29 AM EST by dbd870]
Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
I still never cared for his saying people shouldnt used 1911s because of possible perception, yet at the time he did a shitload of articles on them. I understand he's changed his tune, but oh well. He also still is big on the debunked One Shot Stop percentages.

Team Member Rampant Colt called him on these gems:

http://i28.tinypic.com/28c0goj.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2uyob47.jpg
*hopefully someone will do all the coding so the pictures will be viewable.


I dont hate Massad Ayoob. I just dont agree with some of things he says, especially when factual data doesnt back his claims up.


ETA: that whole argument about the Miami Shootout in 1986 between he and Shawn Dodson was full retard.


That's about where I am with him as well.

I've never take LFI 1 or 2 but I have been exposed to the material in the courses - he really is a mixed bag for me.
Stick it.
slaytera666
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Posted: 2/25/2010 2:53:26 AM EST
Looks like I'm the only one here who isn't a fan of the guy.
glock27bill
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:09:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jus_Ad_Bellum:
I liked him more up until he got way too "avoid everything that might be used in court" attitude. It seemed for a while there that was all he focussed on.


I appreciate his viewpoint on this issue.

Personally I believe in having as much on my side as possible in the unlikely event i get in a legal battle.

And you can take his advice or leave it.

It's not as though he advocates the negative positions that courts might take, he just gives a heads-up.
akethan
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:11:12 AM EST
I'd love to take one of his classes, he's a legend. His daughter would kick most of your asses at the range.
Stupid has no safety.
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Posted By Powderfinger: Anything with "I own page X" and all of it's variants. Big Fukin' Deal!
The_Floridian
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:17:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By slaytera666:
Looks like I'm the only one here who isn't a fan of the guy.


I'm not a fan, either. However, I do like that he at least was trying to write - and what he was trying to write about - but I came across a few positions and beliefs that I didn't agree with, and found that he was haphazard enough in his evaluations and determinations that he was not a writer worth seeking out.

If there's nothing else to read, I'll read his sub-first-class writings while waiting at a doctor's office or some other equally boring place (but it's been years since I even gave him that much time).
dhmjr40
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Posted: 2/25/2010 3:51:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By 30calslut:

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
I found it amusing that American Rifleman did a 'Top Ten Handguns' story and didn't include the Beretta.
The next month there was a letter from Mr. Beretta and a multi-page article from Massad Ayoob about how wrong they were for not including the Beretta.
I also enjoyed the article.

That is too funny.

I took LFI-I with Mas a few years ago ... and he was blasting away with his Beretta, and shooting it quite accurately I might add.

Good guy, very funny too!


That's kinda funny. I enjoy reading his column's. I figure the guy has a wealth on information and actually cares about gun owners.
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