Quoted:
Well, is someone an "Engineer" without an Engineering degree?


Some of the higher ups at work, retitled themselves, "Engineers" most don't even fucking have associate degrees let alone Engineering degrees...

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as an engineer i must say that yes there are some engineers who are clueless in real world applications of solutions but there are far more who are extremely competent and can apply the knowledge they gained in college to design innovative solutions to problems using techniques/theories that some of those who worked their way into an engineering position may not have been exposed to.  In this debate I hear the proponents of working one's way into an engineering degree berate the clueless engineers but i don't hear them even giving a hand wave to the millions of clueless technicians that can't even solve the simplest of problems without direct supervision so forgive me if I don't automatically assume that one who works in the field knows more than the guy out of college.  Yes a person can be an amazing problem solver and work their way to doing what engineers do and they should be recognized for that accomplishment but also it is important to realize that engineering school isn't like getting a liberal arts degree, to pass in any engineering curriculum that i have seen one must have problem solving skills and that is what the degree is meant to demonstrate and the reason why a person straight out of school can be considered for the job when a person with a years field experience isn't.  While a person who works the job for 20 years is fully capable of creating a solution to a problem the engineer with the degree is likely to understand the whys and not just the hows.  I have a really good relationship with the technicians who implement my ideas and as such we accomplish much more than some of the other groups where the technicians think the engineer is an idiot because his new design had flaws and instead of working through it with him they simply use it as ammo to belitle engineers in general.  What is interesting is that the guys who worked their way to fill an engineers slot most likely made the same mistakes along the way but if an engineer does it even once the techs will tear them apart instead of helping.  It is a self fulfilling prophecy.  My experience has been that the engineer with a college degree is much more likely to try an entirely new design to solve a problem which has many opportunities for things to not go 100% while many of those who worked their way into an engineering slot will opt for simple upgrades to a system that sometimes are as dated as the original system itself which is a safer but not necessarily better approach.

Quoted:It really depends on the field of engineering you're in.  Civil?  PE is an absolute necessity.

Chemical, Aerospace? not so much

Others are somewhere in between.

Quoted:

Software? Not at all.
My degree is in environmental science and, even if I felt any desire to take and pass the test, I still wouldn't be an Environmental Engineer. However, without a degree or a test, 14 years experience and multiple non-PE certifications make me totally unashamed of the word "engineer" tacked on. The hardware department contains plenty of Electrical Engineers, I believe, but perhaps half of my department has a degree in any way related to their jobs. The percentage is going up because it's cheaper to hire a kid fresh out of college than it is to find someone with working experience in fibre channel, but even those kids aren't asked to be PE's.
And this is not new. In this arena the word "engineer" has been synonymous with "salaried" for as long as I've been in it. My father worked as an aerospace engineer long before Martin Marietta paid for him to finish his degree and become PE'd and the Viking landers didn't seem to suffer.

Hourly = "technician", in case you were curious.

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LOL!

According to many people on this website, and in particular this thread, everyone with an actual degree in engineering is an incompetant, drooling, mouth-breathing retard while everyone without a degree in engineering is absolutely brilliant and "best in the industry". So its OK if they label themselves an engineer without "jumping through hoops and taking tests"...

Let me ask what the general consensus is about people who falsely claim to be military/SEALs/SF, etc. On this website, they are unanimously branded as wannabes and scumbags and are ridiculed to no end. Why? They are just claiming to be something they are not without jumping through all the hoops and taking all the tests. What is so different?

(I am a senior in ME and I do not approve of anyone claiming to be something they are not - military or otherwise - for any kind of personal gain without having truly earned it.)

The logic on this website is truly baffling at times.

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I tried having them change my title to Ninjaneer on my business card. They wouldn't go for it.

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It really depends on the field of engineering you're in.  Civil?  PE is an absolute necessity.

Chemical, Aerospace? not so much

Others are somewhere in between.

Quoted:
Well, is someone an "Engineer" without an Engineering degree?


Some of the higher ups at work, retitled themselves, "Engineers" most don't even fucking have associate degrees let alone Engineering degrees...

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An EE doing embedded software probably does not [need a PE].

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PE is just unionized bullshit.  The fact you have to apprentice under someone for 4 years to take it is bullshit.

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my father was trained on the job for an electrical engineering job Illinois bell/At&t/Lucent Tech. He dropped out of high school after his junior year. No diploma no degrees and he did the job for 25 years give or take.

Quoted:


And attitudes like yours and you fellow engineers are why engineering is dying in the USA. If you think you need a degree to be in the "club" and do the job you are no better than a union creep who forces companies to hire people who went through an apprenticeship.

Engineering is expected to show below average growth, you are contributing to it. Companies need to hire on ability, not a training program.  

How in the hell can someone call themselves an Engineer without the degree..

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That's not just an imperfect analogy, that's idiotic.
And nowhere do I say that someone who doesn't go to school will always be a better *whatever". I do say that real-world experience is far more valuable, and school is totally unnecessary if a person is intelligent and motivated. If I spent the 25k per year I paid in fees & tuition every year independently on books and materials of my own choosing, I guarantee I'd feel like I got my money's worth and know a hell of a lot more than I learned in school.

My dad didn't need the "sheepskin". Neither did most Engineers from his era. Real Engineers.(And going a little further back- nor did Thomas Edison. ) The Bell System was well known for training it's employees to whatever level they could handle and desired. (And paid them while they were being trained.)  Lucent still does this.

I wonder if those training classes were similar to the engineering classes someone with a degree might have had....

I didn't need mine either, but there are too many idiots (ahem) that require them now for any job to not get one. I have a Bachelor's in CS and CIS, (Never mind that I literally grew up with computers and learned very little in school.)  But I'm a self-taught watchmaker now. I suppose that you could call me a micro-mechanical engineer. (Nobody in my profession cares if or where you went to school, only if you can do the job well. All you have to do to be on the same level as the guys who went to school is take a test, the CW21. It's a demonstration of competence. )

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OK. That's a very nice thing to know about you. Since we are getting personal here, I like to modify old BMW motorcycles into period streetable (cafe, sort of) racers. I don't know a whole lot about other motorcycle engines besides the BMW boxer.

What relevance does your post have to the discussion? If testing is done when hiring, the test can be written in such a way as to assess critical thinking, problem solving ability, understanding of theory, ability to apply knowledge, etc. You can weed out the incompetent, regardless of what paper they hold or don't hold.

So, what exactly is your point?

Quoted:


Spoken like someone who is an "engineer" without a degree. I get these types in my shop all the time telling me they are smarter than me because they are an "engineer". It kinda backfires on them when I say "really, I'm a degreed engineer, BSME from UMass....so what were you telling me again". Fuckin love the resulting red face

Quoted:


The OP didn't complain about people who claim to have Engineering Degree's, he said
people who claim to be Engineers.  If you walk the walk, you can wear the T-shirt.

There are degreed Engineers working as accountants.  Do you want to single them out
and say "You are not really an Accountant, even though you have worked at the trade
for 20 years."  Same goes for a moron who flips burgers who has an Engineering Degree
from a marginal school.

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what i was thinknig.. a college degree doesnt prove that you are smart only a good test taker

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That's what everybody says who isn't a PE.



 

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I think, in order to call yourself an "engineer" you should be required to pass the PE exam, and be licensed.  That's the Practice of Engineering Exam, for those of you who might not be aware of its existence.

Use of the title without the license should be punishable.


It doesn't matter to me about the degree, as long as you pass the licensing exam, which if I recall requires 4 years of experience.




I have never taken the exam, nor am I an "engineer."
 

Quoted:


Why?

PE licensure means very little in the whole field of engineering.

I've been in the engineering field more than 10 years worked in aerospace nearly that whole time except when I taught at a university. I have worked with one engineer in those 10 years who had a PE.

Why do you want to get the government more involved in your life and in how business is conducted?

I think it's absurd that PE licensed person is required to sign off electrical work I want to do on a home even if I've designed the equipment that I'm hooking up. This licensing requirement does not increase the quality of the work nor does it reduce the risk to the servicee or the state.

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That's what everybody says who isn't a PE.



 

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Care to explain how the PE has anything to do with labor contracts/collective bargaining?

Brian

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In my state:

Code of Virginia - Title 54.1 Professions And Occupations - Section 54.1-400 Definitions

"Professional Engineer" means a person who is qualified to practice engineering by reason of his special knowledge and use of mathematical, physical and engineering sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design acquired by engineering education and experience, and whose competence has been attested by the Board through licensure as a professional engineer.

Quoted:
It's not an apprenticeship.  You don't have to work directly under a PE in order to get a PE yourself.  If your company doesn't employ any PE's, does it use any consultants who have a PE?  Or can you find anyone who is a PE in your field and would be willing to act as a "mentor"?  All you have to do is keep them updated on your projects and give them examples of your work and then you can use them as a reference on the PE application.

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I know several people who didn't have any kind of college degree, but after ten or fifteen years working on the floor in progressively higher positions, then working with an engineering group on a project and demonstrating competency, were hired as entry-level engineers.  A guy like that, with years working on the real hardware and a good understanding of the nuances of maintaining, repairing, and installing things, will often be a hell of a lot more valuable than some fresh-out-of-school kid whose head is filled with numbers and equations but has no real idea what the fuck an airplane looks like, much less how any of the systems work.

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In the time I've worked as an Engineer, there's been 1 PE out of the HUNDREDS I've worked with.  He was an Executive VP that used to be a Civil E before he changed careers.

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Experience makes an engineer. Not a degree. Given, earning such a degree will provide necessary experience to start; I am certain there are plenty of incompetent engineers out there with degrees.

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This. My father was an engineer with a well known yellow tractor company without a degree. Of course he had spent his first 25 years building the things and knew more about what would and wouldn't work than those with degrees. They would come to him to ask if their designs would work or not.

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This. My father was an engineer with a well known yellow tractor company without a degree. Of course he had spent his first 25 years building the things and knew more about what would and wouldn't work than those with degrees. They would come to him to ask if their designs would work or not.

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Are engineering threads the new 9mm vs .45?

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Apparently.



There are certain disciplines within Engineering that require a PE for advancement beyond a certain level. Typically in Civil & Mechanical fields, and occasionally in Electrical (mostly power distribution or safety).



For other fields, it is an option, but not a necessity. The degree (from an accredited school) is usually the benchmark, although the history of US innovation has been fueled by many an Engineer without the formal degree.

Quoted:


Aren't you a PE?  

I'm in Engineering tech, so I dunno what that makes me.  Most of the companies I'm looking into prefer the techs for the work we do.