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Posted: 1/20/2002 9:46:55 AM EDT
The Saudi's want the U.S. Military out of their country. The Saudi's are demanding the return of all their citizens who were fighting on the Taliban side. The Saudi's have - at a minimum financially - been long-term supporters of terorism. ---------------------------------- Now the Saudi's have big oil and Russia cannot in the short-term respond to our oil needs. Take the oil fields ?? Continue to live with our "friend and ally" on their present terms ?? Better ideas ?? [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:57:56 AM EDT
Pour R&D funds into fusion power, wait 4 years, then tell the world to FUCK OFF!!!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:04:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: The Saudi's want the U.S. Military out of their country. The Saudi's are demanding the return of all their citizens who were fighting on the Taliban side. The Saudi's have - at a minimum financially - been long-term supporters of terorism. ---------------------------------- Now the Saudi's have big oil and Russia cannot in the short-term respond to our oil needs. Take the oil fields ?? Continue to live with our "friend and ally" on their present terms ?? Better ideas ?? [smoke]
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We could take the oil fields, but that would be a very short term solution. We would have to institute a local government eventually and we have proven to be pretty bad at picking the right horse in those races. If we were as Machiavellian as we are accused of being, we would conveniently arrange for the rapid "culling" of successors to the Saudi throne to ensure that Prince Bandar takes over. The current successor is no real friend of the US and this may be a taste of things to come. Short of that, I will admit to being a little surprised at the Saudi statements recently, such as the one that got Rudy to give the $10 million check back and the latest one about us getting out. I can only surmise that there must be a lot of dissent and turmoil within the normally reserved Royal Saud family and their kingdom. If things with them go to heck in a handbasket, you had better fill your gas tanks and get ready to wait in line, ala 1973.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:08:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By steel_weasel: Pour R&D funds into fusion power, wait 4 years, then tell the world to FUCK OFF!!!
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It's a win/win senario. Let's go with it!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:28:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: If we were as Machiavellian as we are accused of being, we would conveniently arrange for the rapid "culling" of successors to the Saudi throne to ensure that Prince Bandar takes over. The current successor is no real friend of the US and this may be a taste of things to come.
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Yep, we can do bidness with Bandar. Make his buddy Jerry Jones Ambassador and git on down the road.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:31:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By geezhound:
Originally Posted By steel_weasel: Pour R&D funds into fusion power, wait 4 years, then tell the world to FUCK OFF!!!
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It's a win/win senario. Let's go with it!
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Modest modification ? Take the oil fields and pour R&D funds into fusion power. (Just in case it takes 10 years instead of 4.)
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:37:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: I can only surmise that there must be a lot of dissent and turmoil within the normally reserved Royal Saud family and their kingdom.
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Plenty of turmoil and the current sucessor is no friend of ours. He is a friend of Muslim fundamentalism. Just a very, very brief mention on FOX News a couple of nights ago. Seems the U.S. is now hated even more than the ruling family. Quite an achievement.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:41:28 AM EDT
Does anyone remember when the Alaskan Pipeline was being proposed it was touted as ending all of our oil worries? Now I read that 70-80% of that oil goes to Japan. Sigh. As to Saudi, I reccomend that we line the hiway from Iraq to Saudi (thru Kuwait) with our military & tell Saddam to have at Saudi. Piss on 'em. And the horse they rode in on.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:46:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By SF: I can only surmise that there must be a lot of dissent and turmoil within the normally reserved Royal Saud family and their kingdom.
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Plenty of turmoil and the current sucessor is no friend of ours. He is a friend of Muslim fundamentalism. Just a very, very brief mention on FOX News a couple of nights ago. Seems the U.S. is now hated even more than the ruling family. Quite an achievement.
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Well, the Saudi people get their news from the govenment controlled press and the Wahabi mullahs, so it is not likely they have a real impartial perspective in things, now is it? Wonder if we could provide them with about four major news networks, complete with personnel?
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:53:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BobCole: As to Saudi, I reccomend that we line the hiway from Iraq to Saudi (thru Kuwait) with our military & tell Saddam to have at Saudi. Piss on 'em. And the horse they rode in on.
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Real Machiavellian ?? Save American lives ?? Cut a deal with Sadam and let him take Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Last time we told him it was alright to take Kuwait and he believed us. He'll believe us again. Of course as soon as he's finished doing the wet-work..... (And Sadam is about as religious as a turd.)
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:55:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF: Wonder if we could provide them with about four major news networks, complete with personnel?
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How's about ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN ?? Then we got to figure out who'll tell the US side ??
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:55:53 AM EDT
I said it in 1990 and I still say fuck those saudi's. We should go in kill them all and take their fucking oil. Saudi Arabia should be a oilfield filled with American soldiers manning the oil rigs to send oil back to us.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 10:57:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By BobCole: As to Saudi, I reccomend that we line the hiway from Iraq to Saudi (thru Kuwait) with our military & tell Saddam to have at Saudi. Piss on 'em. And the horse they rode in on.
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Real Machiavellian ?? Save American lives ?? Cut a deal with Sadam and let him take Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Last time we told him it was alright to take Kuwait and he believed us. He'll believe us again. Of course as soon as he's finished doing the wet-work..... (And Sadam is about as religious as a turd.)
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5subslr5: Anyone ever tell you, you got a real nasty streak? I like the way you think, shipmate!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 11:49:58 AM EDT
Occasionally, just ocasionally I entertain the thought we (the US) just may not be as dumb as we appear. Fundamentalism on the rise - especially in the middle east. The middle east - due to oil an area of strategic interest. No US bases in Arabia and no real prospects. Sadam sitting there in debt up to his mustache from his failed war with Iran. The Gulf War. US bases in Arabia And now.... now what's next ? (I don't refer to Somalia) There's some end-game being set-up here. I just can't figure out......
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 6:53:37 PM EDT
stcyr, and what would be the British out-look ??
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 8:29:05 PM EDT
Another quiet night on ar15.com :)
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 8:32:46 PM EDT
Saudi Arabia is in big danger, and it ain't from us. The ruling Saud family is so out of touch with the rest of the nation, they are a powder keg just waiting for a sufficient match. The Royal Family has pilfered so much of the country's wealth that they are on VERY thin ice. Combine that with a strong militant presence in SA, and see what happens. In order to stay in power and keep things (relatively) calm, the Saud family has been bankrolling militant Islamic (terrorist) groups for decades. Because of our energy (oil) dependence upon SA, you can bet yer ass the US troops will be there when the SHTF.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 8:45:14 PM EDT
Saudi Arabia pays for the schools in Pakistan.The schools in Pakistan are run by very hardcore religious fanatics.This is there way for making up there worldly ways.What schools do you think bin Lauden gets most of his suicide bomber prospects.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:04:10 PM EDT
Well, now you know why we are such buds with the Israelis. Unfortuately they are the only one that are semi reliable in the middle-east. None of the arab countries are worth a damn. We should have let Saddam role over their dumb asses.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:06:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By steel_weasel: Pour R&D funds into fusion power, wait 4 years, then tell the world to FUCK OFF!!!
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... you sir are a true visionary!
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 12:54:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: The Saudi's want the U.S. Military out of their country. The Saudi's are demanding the return of all their citizens who were fighting on the Taliban side. The Saudi's have - at a minimum financially - been long-term supporters of terorism. ---------------------------------- Now the Saudi's have big oil and Russia cannot in the short-term respond to our oil needs. Take the oil fields ?? Continue to live with our "friend and ally" on their present terms ?? Better ideas ?? [smoke]
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The only good idea is to get the US out of SA at the earliest opportunity, which is now. It is the Saudi's country if they want us gone, we should have left many moons ago. Actually we should have never been there in the first place. Take their oil fields? What are you some barbaric scumbag proposing we steal something that does not belong to us? (That’s a rhetorical question, no need to answer) Why don't you, Mr. Big McNutsack himself, waltz into Saudi Arabia and take the country over single handedly? Of course I will make it a point to witness the exact moment you become single-handed, which is what happens to thieves such as yourself in Saudi-land. rDAm
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 1:05:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By steel_weasel: Pour R&D funds into fusion power, wait 4 years, then tell the world to FUCK OFF!!!
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I assume you are speaking of taxpayer funds? If you aren't, don't you think that if there was any money to be made with such an energy source, sufficient funds would have been poured into the research by investors by now? I hope you aren't proposing some kind of government-as-savior boondoggle program here. If so we would be better off to take our money and flush it down the crapper. It would cost less in the long run and we still wouldn't have fusion power until some very industrious souls achieved it privately, and for profit. rDAm
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 1:27:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SF:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By SF: I can only surmise that there must be a lot of dissent and turmoil within the normally reserved Royal Saud family and their kingdom.
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Plenty of turmoil and the current sucessor is no friend of ours. He is a friend of Muslim fundamentalism. Just a very, very brief mention on FOX News a couple of nights ago. Seems the U.S. is now hated even more than the ruling family. Quite an achievement.
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Well, the Saudi people get their news from the govenment controlled press and the Wahabi mullahs, so it is not likely they have a real impartial perspective in things, now is it? Wonder if we could provide them with about four major news networks, complete with personnel?
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SF, Where do you get this shit from? The Saudi people, as well as the people from the whole gulf region have independent outside sources from which to get their news from. If you were so worldly as to stay at almost any decent hotel in the region you would have been able to watch international news sources from CNN and others. Or if you understood Arabic, you could even get your news from Al-Jazeera, like a hell of a lot of people in SA, Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen (and other countries) do. It is really hard to impose a news blackout on a country with so many satellite dishes. Do a little research and quit sounding like a jackass. Your faith in the major American networks is more than a little disturbing. They owe their very existence to the federal government; they are nothing but propaganda mouthpieces for the Feds, lap dogs. Everyone else in every corner of the world has realized this, except for a few delusionals here in the states. If a major network decided they really wanted to be journalists and expose Federal largesse, corruption and rot, they would find that between the IRS and the FCC, they would have so much grief that the stockholders would change management to a more Fed-friendly tone ASAP. rDAm
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 1:34:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: I said it in 1990 and I still say fuck those saudi's. We should go in kill them all and take their fucking oil. Saudi Arabia should be a oilfield filled with American soldiers manning the oil rigs to send oil back to us.
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I think there is a thorizine prescription with your name on it out there. Sounds like you picked a bad week to stop smoking crack. rDAm
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 2:56:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 4:51:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Invictus:
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: I said it in 1990 and I still say fuck those saudi's. We should go in kill them all and take their fucking oil. Saudi Arabia should be a oilfield filled with American soldiers manning the oil rigs to send oil back to us.
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I think there is a thorizine prescription with your name on it out there. Sounds like you picked a bad week to stop smoking crack. rDAm
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I did find PGM's post pretty funny though. However, I don't think GI's should have to man the rigs. Just hire some dirt cheap labor from a neighboring country to do it.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 5:45:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ulysse_Nardin_1846:
Originally Posted By Invictus:
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: I said it in 1990 and I still say fuck those saudi's. We should go in kill them all and take their fucking oil. Saudi Arabia should be a oilfield filled with American soldiers manning the oil rigs to send oil back to us.
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I think there is a thorizine prescription with your name on it out there. Sounds like you picked a bad week to stop smoking crack. rDAm
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I did find PGM's post pretty funny though. However, I don't think GI's should have to man the rigs. Just hire some dirt cheap labor from a neighboring country to do it.
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Only GI snipers should man the rigging. [:d]
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:03:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Invictus: 1) What are you some barbaric scumbag proposing we steal something that does not belong to us? 2) Why don't you, Mr. Big McNutsack himself, waltz into Saudi Arabia and take the country over single handedly? rDAm
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Invictus, despite your lack of heated, baited rhetoric you do make some good points. My topic was posted because I know the future of the Saudi oil fields is being discussed at the highest levels so why not bring the discussion down to the lower levels ? So far as me taking the fields single handed -unfortunately I'm busy that day. (Got a dental appointment.) Opinion: We are going to take the Arabian oil fields. Whether by proxy or direct intervention I don't know. But take them we will.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:18:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:31:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Invictus:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: The Saudi's want the U.S. Military out of their country. The Saudi's are demanding the return of all their citizens who were fighting on the Taliban side. The Saudi's have - at a minimum financially - been long-term supporters of terorism. ---------------------------------- Now the Saudi's have big oil and Russia cannot in the short-term respond to our oil needs. Take the oil fields ?? Continue to live with our "friend and ally" on their present terms ?? Better ideas ?? [smoke]
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The only good idea is to get the US out of SA at the earliest opportunity, which is now. It is the Saudi's country if they want us gone, we should have left many moons ago. Actually we should have never been there in the first place. Take their oil fields? What are you some barbaric scumbag proposing we steal something that does not belong to us? (That’s a rhetorical question, no need to answer) Why don't you, Mr. Big McNutsack himself, waltz into Saudi Arabia and take the country over single handedly? Of course I will make it a point to witness the exact moment you become single-handed, which is what happens to thieves such as yourself in Saudi-land. rDAm
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"Thieves"? You need to take a peak out from under that rock more often. Last time I checked, SA as well as all of our other allies were bought and paid for. If it were not for the U.S. provided defense of SA, that third world $h1thole of a region would have swallowed them up a long time ago. Take a look @ their military, DICK, those F-16's, M-16's, and Patriot missle batteries all say "Made in America".
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:39:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Occasionally, just ocasionally I entertain the thought we (the US) just may not be as dumb as we appear. Fundamentalism on the rise - especially in the middle east. The middle east - due to oil an area of strategic interest. No US bases in Arabia and no real prospects. Sadam sitting there in debt up to his mustache from his failed war with Iran. The Gulf War. US bases in Arabia And now.... now what's next ? (I don't refer to Somalia) There's some end-game being set-up here. I just can't figure out......
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I think you have provided the answer to your own question.
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However, when you begin to answer your own questions......... [:D]
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:41:07 AM EDT
Boys and girls, I think you guys are thinking too much about the hard approach. Try thinking soft, like water. We pull our troops out of Saudi. Saudi collapses. One of two likely ends: a) Fundamentalists take over. b) Saddam invades and takes over. Either way, they have to remain militarily powerful in that region. Strong armies need money. To get money, they have to sell oil. We have more money than anyone. Water Strategy: Let them fuck themselves, then we buy oil from whoever is left. We can do it through intermediaries if they need to maintain appearances, but eventually, they have to sell oil or be invaded by someone who WILL sell oil. Nobody in that region can trust anyone else, which makes sense since all the leaders there are murderous thieving bastards. We just offer to buy oil from whoever can hold the oilfields. Money heals all wounds.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:00:14 AM EDT
We pull our troops out of Saudi. Saudi collapses. One of two likely ends: a) Fundamentalists take over. b) Saddam invades and takes over.
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The catch is that either of those outcomes would be bad news for Israel. Keeping the oil flowing is not America's only priority in the Middle East.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:17:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Invictus: I assume you are speaking of taxpayer funds? If you aren't, don't you think that if there was any money to be made with such an energy source, sufficient funds would have been poured into the research by investors by now? I hope you aren't proposing some kind of government-as-savior boondoggle program here. If so we would be better off to take our money and flush it down the crapper. It would cost less in the long run and we still wouldn't have fusion power until some very industrious souls achieved it privately, and for profit. rDAm
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It took government funds to split the atom and to "discover" America; in both eras there were capital markets readily avaible that simply did not sieze the opportunities. For strategic issues like these, there are priorities other than simple economics that need to be reckoned with. Oil is a strategic issue too.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:20:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Boys and girls, I think you guys are thinking too much about the hard approach. Try thinking soft, like water. We pull our troops out of Saudi. Saudi collapses. One of two likely ends: a) Fundamentalists take over. b) Saddam invades and takes over. Either way, they have to remain militarily powerful in that region. Strong armies need money. To get money, they have to sell oil. We have more money than anyone. Water Strategy: Let them fuck themselves, then we buy oil from whoever is left. We can do it through intermediaries if they need to maintain appearances, but eventually, they have to sell oil or be invaded by someone who WILL sell oil. Nobody in that region can trust anyone else, which makes sense since all the leaders there are murderous thieving bastards. We just offer to buy oil from whoever can hold the oilfields. Money heals all wounds.
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I'm with you, pullout, kick back and watch the savages kill each other.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:23:23 AM EDT
ARTIST: Led Zeppelin TITLE: Your Time Is Gonna Come Lyin', cheatin', hurtin, that's all you seem to do Messin' around with every guy in town Puttin' me down for thinkin' of someone new Always the same, playin' your game Drive me insane, troubles gonna come to you One of these days and it won't be long You'll look for me, but, baby, I'll be gone This is all I got to say to you {Refrain} Your time is gonna come (4X) Made up my mind to break you this time Won't be so fine, it's my turn to cry Do what you want, I won't take the brunt It's fadin' away, can't feel you anymore Don't care what you say 'cause I'm gone away to stay Gonna make you pay for that great big hole in my heart People talkin' all around, watch out woman No longer is the joke gonna be in my heart You been bad to me woman, but it's coming back home to you
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:13:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2002 8:15:17 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By ECS:
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Boys and girls, I think you guys are thinking too much about the hard approach. Try thinking soft, like water. We pull our troops out of Saudi. Saudi collapses. One of two likely ends: a) Fundamentalists take over. b) Saddam invades and takes over. Either way, they have to remain militarily powerful in that region. Strong armies need money. To get money, they have to sell oil. We have more money than anyone. Water Strategy: Let them fuck themselves, then we buy oil from whoever is left. We can do it through intermediaries if they need to maintain appearances, but eventually, they have to sell oil or be invaded by someone who WILL sell oil. Nobody in that region can trust anyone else, which makes sense since all the leaders there are murderous thieving bastards. We just offer to buy oil from whoever can hold the oilfields. Money heals all wounds.
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I'm with you, pullout, kick back and watch the savages kill each other.
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Just give me a solution to the short-term problem of supply and controlling oil prices while the soft-approach happens. I do admire your placement of Sadam under the soft-approach !!
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:19:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By ECS:
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: Boys and girls, I think you guys are thinking too much about the hard approach. Try thinking soft, like water. We pull our troops out of Saudi. Saudi collapses. One of two likely ends: a) Fundamentalists take over. b) Saddam invades and takes over. Either way, they have to remain militarily powerful in that region. Strong armies need money. To get money, they have to sell oil. We have more money than anyone. Water Strategy: Let them fuck themselves, then we buy oil from whoever is left. We can do it through intermediaries if they need to maintain appearances, but eventually, they have to sell oil or be invaded by someone who WILL sell oil. Nobody in that region can trust anyone else, which makes sense since all the leaders there are murderous thieving bastards. We just offer to buy oil from whoever can hold the oilfields. Money heals all wounds.
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I'm with you, pullout, kick back and watch the savages kill each other.
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Just give me a solution to the short-term problem of supply and controlling oil prices while the soft-approach happens. I do admire your placement of Sadam under the soft-approach !!
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I believe that any approach, hard or soft, would involve some emergency oil measures. Maybe buy from Russia or others, or whatnot.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:35:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2002 8:37:52 AM EDT by SF]
Spirited discussion from many different perspectives. I am not an oil man, but a few bits of information here. The US does NOT buy that much oil from Saudi or the Middle East. Europe and Japan do. The majority of our oil comes from Latin America (Venezuela and Mexico, primarily). Oil is an international commodity. The vendors sell to the consumers worldwide and the oil is transported to the purchaser primarily via land and sea modes. Pricing varies, but is globally competetive. Most producers have sufficient cash reserves to ride out a temporary price depression or production cutback. In 1973, when the US provided much needed missiles (TOW and air to air) to the Israelis during the Yom Kippur War, the oil exporters (largely Arab) retaliated by cutting production. Unfortunately, in response to skyrocketing prices, the US Government attempted to freeze oil prices here, causing domestic producers to stop drilling, cap their wells, and cease production, exacerbating the shortage. The result was a 300% increase in the cost of petroleum products, panic, long lines to get gas (further fueling the panic), hoarding and attempts to ration fuel. Any shutdown of the Saudi oil fields (I believe the largest exporting nation in the world) even a partial one for a limited period, would create shortages on the world markets with a commensurate increase in the price of Venezuelan or North Sea (or North Texas) crude. When the Japanese are willing to pay more than we are, the oil will go there. Speculation would further increase prices. We could likely look forward to doubled or tripled prices and local, if not global shortages and lines. I am not trying to preach doom and gloom here, or say we should do nothing, I am just trying to point out the delicate balance of the situation. Even in military operations, you have to consider the political, diplomatic, and economic impact of military action. Can we destroy the oil fields militarily? Yes. Could we take the country and seize the means of production? Almost certainly. Would we necessarily want to do that if the Saudis officially asked us to leave? I am not sure we would. The comments about drilling further domestically and exploring other energy options, including fusion, fuel cells, etc. are far more realistic and constructive than reactionary rhetoric about taking Saudi Arabia by force and commandeering the oil for ourselves. Like it or not, we live in a global community and rely far to heavily on imports and exports to be too heavy handed. It is far more likely that we will continue to play behind the scenes and work to get and/or keep a US friendly government (despite what they say in public) in control of Saudi Arabia. That is not to say that if the government fell due to internal events we might not step in to help till the situation was stabilized (to our satisfaction). (edited 'cause I can't spell, and the spellchecker is down!)
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