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krpind
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:40:33 AM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT


Is it as simple as 8.3#?
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
grywlf52
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:42:29 AM
Container size?

Thinking PSI?

I don't know, just waiting for Keith_J
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:42:59 AM
yes it is that easy.

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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:43:22 AM
Yup.
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molotov357
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:43:30 AM
8.34 pounds
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leungken
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:43:35 AM
Conservation of mass, since converting the water to steam is neither a fision or fusion reaction, thus you will get 8.345404487293294 pounds or ~8.35 pounds of steam.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:44:39 AM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 11:45:04 AM by TacticalMOLONLABE]
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:45:21 AM
Why would any weight be lost or gained?



Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water?
Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
On no account will a commie ever drink water. And not without good reason.
ragedracer1977
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:45:23 AM
How can 1 gallon (6lbs) of gasoline produce 22lbs of Co2?
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:45:52 AM
How could it produce more than a gallon of water weighs which is 8.345404487293294 lbs?.

ETA, I really have no idea on the steam, but my guess is above.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:46:57 AM
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
How can 1 gallon (6lbs) of gasoline produce 22lbs of Co2?


The carbon in gasoline combines with atmospheric O2.
molotov357
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:47:00 AM
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
How can 1 gallon (6lbs) of gasoline produce 22lbs of Co2?


The combustion product is heavier. You are adding 2 oxygen atoms to the carbon in the gas
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chodenut
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:48:25 AM
Conservation of Mass...
...I am all out of bubblegum.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:48:46 AM
Originally Posted By molotov357:
8.34 pounds


this
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leungken
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:50:07 AM
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
How can 1 gallon (6lbs) of gasoline produce 22lbs of Co2?


Because it is a combustion process, which involve other oxidizer specifically oxygen or air, which introduce extra mass. You can heat a gallon of gasoline in its container (assuming it is strong enough to hold the pressure) to whatever temperature you wanted, if there are no air or other oxidizer to produce combustion, all you get is 6 pounds worth of super heated gasoline vapor.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:50:22 AM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 11:51:08 AM by Keith_J]
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:52:35 AM
Isn't the mass of steam a far more useful measure than its weight? Isn't the "weight" of the steam variable with temperature and pressure? Did high school science fail me on this point?
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Posted: 5/27/2009 11:58:46 AM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:04:45 PM by VBC]
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?


If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it would be 8.1 lbs.


Because liquid water changes density with temperature.
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Matthew_Q
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:00:44 PM
Are you talking about weight or pressure?

The same amount of water in liquid or steam form would weigh the same.
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krpind
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:00:56 PM
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.



ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
Zhukov
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:04:45 PM

Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?

If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it could be 8.1 lbs.

Because liquid water changes density with temperature.

Density != mass. The VOLUME will change with temperature, but not the mass. You left off one important aspect of density, and that is that it's given in mass PER volume, ie. mg/cm^3.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:06:57 PM
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.

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Keith_J
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:08:00 PM

Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.




He isn't an engineer. Or he might be from TU or one of them diploma mills .

Yes, turn up the BTUs because it is ENERGY which is driving the hammers. Energy communicated from the flame to the piston by steam. Unless the boiler and steam hammers are at 15,000 feet of altitude, there is no pressure in 212F water.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:09:15 PM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:12:01 PM by VBC]
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?

If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it could be 8.1 lbs.

Because liquid water changes density with temperature.

Density != mass. The VOLUME will change with temperature, but not the mass. You left off one important aspect of density, and that is that it's given in mass PER volume, ie. mg/cm^3.



Read the OP again. He specified 1 GALLON of water. The volume is constant in his problem.
Desnity changes with temp. If volume is held constant, mass will change.

I didn't leave off anything. You misunderstood the problem.
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krpind
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:11:01 PM
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.



He says it is less as well.

I don't see how......I'm more than willing to be proven wrong here, it just seems that if I convert a gallon of water to steam [no matter what the temp or pressure is] it is always going to weigh appox 8.3...lbs

ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:12:45 PM
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
How can 1 gallon (6lbs) of gasoline produce 22lbs of Co2?


The carbon in gasoline combines with atmospheric O2.


Woa! That's astounding. We need to do something about that! I suggest we charge everyone according to how much carbon they emit. Failing to do so could be catastrophic.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:13:29 PM
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:15:45 PM
African water or European water?
VBC
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:15:47 PM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:18:42 PM by VBC]
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.



He says it is less as well.

I don't see how......I'm more than willing to be proven wrong here, it just seems that if I convert a gallon of water to steam [no matter what the temp or pressure is] it is always going to weigh appox 8.3...lbs



It depends at what temp. the liquid water is when it enters your thermodynamic cycle.

The relationship between density of water vs. temperature is here:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/AllenMa.shtml

If you start out with hot water (200 degree water), it's density if only going to be about 8.1 lbs/gallon, due to expansion. Water at 40 degrees is about 8.3 lbs/gallon.





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molotov357
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:17:01 PM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:18:58 PM by molotov357]
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.



So lets say you have a hollow iron sphere with 1 gallon of water inside.

At room temperature this sphere is placed on a scale and reads 28.34 pounds (assume the sphere is 20 pounds)

A torch is used to heat the sphere to 1000 degrees to ensure the water inside becomes steam. Would the sphere not still read 28.34 pounds?

The mass has not changed. Neither has the earths gravitational effect changed. I don't see how the weight could vary.
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krpind
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:17:46 PM


I'll be damned.

ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.


Originally Posted By red65:
Ask youself: What organization do libtards hate the most?

Answer: The NRA
VBC
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:21:51 PM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:24:28 PM by VBC]
Originally Posted By molotov357:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.



So lets say you have a hollow iron sphere with 1 gallon of water inside.

At room temperature this sphere is placed on a scale and reads 28.34 pounds (assume the sphere is 20 pounds)

A torch is used to heat the sphere to 1000 degrees to ensure the water inside becomes steam. Would the sphere not still read 28.34 pounds?

The mass has not changed. Neither has the earths gravitational effect changed. I don't see how the weight could vary.



That would be true under those conditions. But weigh the sphere full of water at 200 degrees in the beginning, then do your problem.. You will begin with a different weight, which will produce that weight in steam.

His problem is assuming that you have 1 gallon of water in the beginning. Therefore, how much that 1 gallon weighs, will depend on the density of the water, which depends on its temperature.

If he started out with 1 gallon at 40 degrees, he would produce 8.3 lbs of steam.

If he started out with 1 gallon at 200 degrees, he would produce 8.0 lbs of steam.





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Zhukov
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:27:15 PM

Originally Posted By VBC:

Read the OP again. He specified 1 GALLON of water. The volume is constant in his problem.
Desnity changes with temp. If volume is held constant, mass will change.

I didn't leave off anything. You misunderstood the problem.

You're right. He specified volume. I'm a bonehead.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:27:26 PM

Originally Posted By photokirk:
African water or European water?

Are suggesting that water migrates?!?
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:33:04 PM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:34:09 PM by brickeyee]
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By molotov357:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.



So lets say you have a hollow iron sphere with 1 gallon of water inside.

At room temperature this sphere is placed on a scale and reads 28.34 pounds (assume the sphere is 20 pounds)

A torch is used to heat the sphere to 1000 degrees to ensure the water inside becomes steam. Would the sphere not still read 28.34 pounds?

The mass has not changed. Neither has the earths gravitational effect changed. I don't see how the weight could vary.



That would be true under those conditions. But weigh the sphere full of water at 200 degrees in the beginning, then do your problem.. You will begin with a different weight, which will produce that weight in steam.

His problem is assuming that you have 1 gallon of water in the beginning. Therefore, how much that 1 gallon weighs, will depend on the density of the water, which depends on its temperature.

If he started out with 1 gallon at 40 degrees, he would produce 8.3 lbs of steam.

If he started out with 1 gallon at 200 degrees, he would produce 8.0 lbs of steam.







He is most likely starting with about 40 F water, possibly form a municipal supply or a storage tank.

It sounds like he is boiling the water at atmospheric pressure (or very slightly above) producing a very wet low energy steam.
Increase the operating pressure and the amount of water used will significantly decrease and the hammers will actually work.

Tell him to look up 'superheat.'
That is how steam is used to perform work (like turning turbines or driving hammers).


The only thing wet steam is useful for is moving heat from point A to point B, and large systems still super heat it to move more heat.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:33:07 PM
[Last Edit: 5/27/2009 12:34:26 PM by VBC]
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By VBC:

Read the OP again. He specified 1 GALLON of water. The volume is constant in his problem.
Desnity changes with temp. If volume is held constant, mass will change.

I didn't leave off anything. You misunderstood the problem.

You're right. He specified volume. I'm a bonehead.


Welcome to the club. Every once and a while I get lucky.
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VBC
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:36:12 PM
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By molotov357:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Saturated? Need to know temperature OR pressure to determine volume.

Superheated? Need to know both temperature AND pressure ti determine volume.


Mass doesn't change.


The story is an engineer working on a project here in town came in to ask me this. I told him, it would be 8.3#.

He wasn't sure that was correct.

He has boilers and is trying to drive steam hammers and it isn't working properly. He is consuming water to the tune of 150Kgallons/day.

Come to find out he is only getting 212 degree water, which isn't even steam anyway. I told him to increase the BTUs and raise the water temp to 250 to 275. That should cut down on his water consumption and make the hammers work.

I guess.....not really what we do anyway.






8.3 lbs isn't correct at 212 degree water. It's more like 8.1 lbs.

Slight difference, but at 150Kgals it becomes substantial.



So lets say you have a hollow iron sphere with 1 gallon of water inside.

At room temperature this sphere is placed on a scale and reads 28.34 pounds (assume the sphere is 20 pounds)

A torch is used to heat the sphere to 1000 degrees to ensure the water inside becomes steam. Would the sphere not still read 28.34 pounds?

The mass has not changed. Neither has the earths gravitational effect changed. I don't see how the weight could vary.



That would be true under those conditions. But weigh the sphere full of water at 200 degrees in the beginning, then do your problem.. You will begin with a different weight, which will produce that weight in steam.

His problem is assuming that you have 1 gallon of water in the beginning. Therefore, how much that 1 gallon weighs, will depend on the density of the water, which depends on its temperature.

If he started out with 1 gallon at 40 degrees, he would produce 8.3 lbs of steam.

If he started out with 1 gallon at 200 degrees, he would produce 8.0 lbs of steam.







He is most likely starting with about 40 F water, possibly form a municipal supply or a storage tank.

It sounds like he is boiling the water at atmospheric pressure (or very slightly above) producing a very wet low energy steam.
Increase the operating pressure and the amount of water used will significantly decrease and the hammers will actually work.

Tell him to look up 'superheat.'
That is how steam is used to perform work (like turning turbines or driving hammers).


The only thing wet steam is useful for is moving heat from point A to point B, and large systems still super heat it to move more heat.



Now we have a real mechanical engineer on board. This sounds legit.


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sigp226
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:37:05 PM
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?


If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it would be 8.1 lbs.


Because liquid water changes density with temperature.


Actually if the water was cold, you would get less mass per unit of volume. Water loses density as it approaches the freezing point. That's why ice floats.

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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:37:15 PM
Originally Posted By leungken:
Conservation of mass...


...does not apply, since a pound is a scalar quantity.

Put that in your pipe and chew on it for a while.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:41:21 PM
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?


If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it would be 8.1 lbs.


Because liquid water changes density with temperature.


Actually if the water was cold on the verge of freezing, you would get less mass per unit of volume. Water loses density as it approaches the freezing point. That's why ice floats.



IIRC, it keeps getting denser down to about 35 degrees F, then it gets slightly less dense just before it freezes.

For as ubiquitous as it is, water is a very unique compound with unique properties. The universal solvent.
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:43:30 PM
I'm pretty sure water vapor has little or no weight.

It does have mass though
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Posted: 5/27/2009 12:46:32 PM
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?


If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it would be 8.1 lbs.


Because liquid water changes density with temperature.


Actually if the water was cold on the verge of freezing, you would get less mass per unit of volume. Water loses density as it approaches the freezing point. That's why ice floats.



IIRC, it keeps getting denser down to about 35 degrees F, then it gets slightly less dense just before it freezes.

For as ubiquitous as it is, water is a very unique compound with unique properties. The universal solvent.


I remember a chenistry experiment with ice water and a graduated cylinder. We had to measure the temperature of the water at different depths and 35 degrees Fahrenheit sounds familiar.

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PaDanby
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Posted: 5/28/2009 1:04:47 AM
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?


yes.
wutzu
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Posted: 5/28/2009 2:00:22 AM
Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By VBC:
Originally Posted By krpind:


Is it as simple as 8.3#?


If the water is cold.

If the water is hot (like 180 degrees F), it would be 8.1 lbs.


Because liquid water changes density with temperature.


Actually if the water was cold, you would get less mass per unit of volume. Water loses density as it approaches the freezing point. That's why ice floats.



NO!

Ice floats because water expands (into a crystalline structure) as it changes from a liquid phase to a solid phase. Pretty much no other known substance decreases in density when changing phase from liquid to solid.

And as far as the density of liquid water:
Water is most dense at 4 degrees C, slightly less dense at or near freezing, and less dense as it gets heavier.

Not an engineer (yet)
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Posted: 5/28/2009 2:01:23 AM
Pound of feathers or pound of bricks?
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Posted: 5/28/2009 2:02:01 AM
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
How can 1 gallon (6lbs) of gasoline produce 22lbs of Co2?


Because Al Gore says so..
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Posted: 5/28/2009 4:26:50 AM
African or European steam?
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Posted: 5/28/2009 4:40:27 AM
Which weighs more, a pound of coal or a pound of feathers?
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Posted: 5/28/2009 6:50:26 AM
[Last Edit: 5/28/2009 6:51:16 AM by cosmo05]



So lets say you have a hollow iron sphere with 1 gallon of water inside.

At room temperature this sphere is placed on a scale and reads 28.34 pounds (assume the sphere is 20 pounds)

A torch is used to heat the sphere to 1000 degrees to ensure the water inside becomes steam. Would the sphere not still read 28.34 pounds?

The mass has not changed. Neither has the earths gravitational effect changed. I don't see how the weight could vary.



That better be one strong ass sphere, that gallon of water will turn into 1600 gallons of steam with nowhere to go!

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FrozInAK
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Posted: 5/28/2009 7:00:07 AM
What weighs more a ton of feathers, or a ton of bricks?
Dr_Dickie
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Posted: 5/28/2009 7:05:31 AM
[Last Edit: 5/28/2009 7:08:37 AM by Dr_Dickie]
Mass is conserved; HOWEVER, weight is not mass.
The increase in bouncy of the steam will make it weight less (perhaps even negative––and pounds is NOT a measure of mass, but of weight––the English units of mass are slugs). It really only makes sense if you use pounds as mass. Then there is no change due to phase change.
If you want volume, the rule of thumb is 1000x volume increase in going to gas phase (at room temperature). To get the volume better, you need mass and temperature and pressure.
As written, the question is nonsensical.
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