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Posted: 1/10/2002 3:28:40 PM EDT
I had an interesting conversation with some friends and thought I would bring the debate here... Amongst my circle of friends, there is a running joke (half-full of truth) that, if the S ever did HTF, they would all be lined up outside my front door. This recently led to a discussion about whether or not I would/should accept them. The group is basically split down the middle on this. Scenario: You have a sufficient amount of supplies (meaning everything needed for basic survival) for your family of whatever to last you, say, 6 months. You also have some sort of surplus of weaponry and ammo considering the number of able-bodied members in your family. One day the SHTF in a moderate to big way, something that will require you to "survive" on your own for 3-5 months before order and "life" can be restored. Also, assume you live in a densely populated area as I do and during this time period lawlessness/rioting/roving gangs would be a moderate to significant problem. Someone(s) shows up on your doorstep seeking shelter and help. (You can assume you know the person or not, it might make a difference to you.) This person(s) has very little or no supplies of their own. You know that supporting this additional person(s) will mean that your group of people will now not have enough supplies to survive long enough. Question: Do you take this person(s) in and offer them shelter/protection/sustinence? [b]Why or why not?[/b] After some soul searching, I say that I would. Why? Because I believe its the right thing to do. If I took this person/family in and we all ended up not making it, well, I would die with a clear conscience knowing that I did the honorable thing. However, if I turned them away and I survived (they didn't or I never know for sure), I don't think I could ever hold my head up again. If I am in a position to "save" those that need saving, then I feel I am honor bound to do so. (yes, I often use the nickname Paladin in video games) That even includes (here comes the flame bait) the anti-gun PETA member down the street that would like nothing more than to take away that very ability that might save them. So, what do you think? What would you do? Please think about this for a moment and share your feelings...
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:32:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:43:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 3:50:25 PM EDT by FrankSquid]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:48:34 PM EDT
Assuming from your post that is was just one group/person, and not a constant string, then yes, I would. If the whole damn town was at my door, then "sorry" would be the collective answer.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 4:35:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stubbs: Assuming from your post that is was just one group/person, and not a constant string, then yes, I would. If the whole damn town was at my door, then "sorry" would be the collective answer.
View Quote
That's the key right there. It probably wouldn't just be one person. I mean if you're going to take just anybody in and give them food and such, where does it end? And who's to say these same people won't stab you while you sleep and take your guns and kill your family for the food and supplies? Sorry, I just don't have that much faith or trust in people. I say you'd be risking your own life by taking in people you don't know. It would be a different story if they had something to bring to the table, and could compliment the situation.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 4:44:40 PM EDT
It really depends on who it is. A stranger just might cut your throat in the middle of the night and invite his buddies into his new house. If Anna Kournikova shows up at the door, I would let her in. Even if she does not have any supplies, I am sure we could work something out. If the law of the jungle is the only law in effect, then all assets are valuable for exchange.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:29:55 PM EDT
Friends yes, good ones at that. If I dont know them, step on out. If not, your going to get dropped. c-rock
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:37:01 PM EDT
I would have no problem turning away single adults that I did not know, but would have a really hard time turning away families with small children.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:37:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FrankSquid: I would drop him on the door step and eat his guts for dinner. [xx(] The carcass would also keep other potential looters away. I have all the room in the world for VERY close friends and family. Anyone else better have something substantial to contribute for surviving whatever is going on. Combat skills, supplies, friends in high places, nice tits or resourcefulness would be your ticket into my home.
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Dude, If the SHTF for real they aren't gonna make it to the door!!! [50]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:49:54 PM EDT
Turn them away? Not to get off on too much of a sick sidetrack, but I always reasoned with my friends that food would be far more important than guns, and if you were willing to be a cannibal, you could out survive everyone- just keep plenty of BBQ sauce and the two legged deer will keep supplying themselves on your doorstep... (just kidding here) That said, I'd give two of my good neighbor friends a couple of guns I could do without so they could fend for themselves, as they have none, then head for my families farm in the hills.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:55:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:05:09 PM EDT
This is truly a tough question, one for the ages perhaps. But if on the morning of the apocalypse I open my door and see a huddled, pathetic mass of people looking for my help, there's really only one criteria that I need apply. Which ones will I help? The ones with the biggest breastagezes.[shock]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:06:47 PM EDT
If it was a complete and total contribution on my part... forget it. What are they bringing to the table? An unknown would not be a candidate. Only a known friendly would get the option to bring something.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:32:19 PM EDT
Take them in only if they will help you take food and gear from people that don't need it anymore.] [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:34:50 PM EDT
There has been a fair amount of media exposure aimed toward the general public concerning preparedness over the last five years. People that haven't got it by now don't really want to think about it. Frank Zappa summed up the philosophy many folks embrace. "I'm telling you my dear, that it can't...happen here." Other than immediate family and good friends, I would not be too sympathetic. Anybody wanting to avail themselves of my resources would have to have something substantial to bring to the table.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:36:17 PM EDT
Shoot the Peta guy, take his stuff, feel warm and cozy all over! [devil]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 6:36:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 6:38:53 PM EDT by AR-10]
Another Frank Zappa quote. "Fuzzy dice, and bongos in the back. My ship of love is ready to attack." Something to think about.[:)] Edit to fix smily. Don't want that Nazi dude coming unglued on me.[;)]
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:04:05 PM EDT
As someone who knows a significant number of people. Hmmm, I can look at this in two ways. You are saying that you won't have enough food. But that idea is too static. As their are always things to do to put food on the table. Regardless of the number to feed. It also depends on the number of people present. If there is a significant number of people say 100 or something. Then I would start buy seperating those with military experience out and making them leaders. Then I would take and put Older and Wiser with Younger and stronger and then assign say 10 people to each team leader trying to keep familes together as best as possible. I would then set each group building shelter and then gather the team leaders into a group to tell them to split their groups between building the shelters and gathering food. If we are in a neighborhood with say one block or something I would secure the block or some portion of it. and establish checkpoints and build some baracades and guard towers further back. I would further find a way to produce some amount of electricity. The most valuable commodities would be Water, Food, Gasoline. GOLD would probably be the currency of choice perhaps even the only currency used for trade As it has some intrinsic value recognized buy all even when and perhaps even especially when the US currency may not be worth Jack Shit. Just some ideas and thoughts. Benjamin
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:05:54 PM EDT
Only take in my closest of friends or family.All others must keep their distance or face the consequences,which will not be kind. I mean think about it,you have to sleep sometime and even if a friend or family member comes unequipped,I would arm them to keep watch over my assets while I am at rest.They also would increase the effectiveness in fending off an assault by hostile forces.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:16:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 7:18:53 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By FMJunkie: This person(s) has very little or no supplies of their own. You know that supporting this additional person(s) will mean that your group of people will now not have enough supplies to survive long enough.
View Quote
KEY POINT!! Rule #1) Never take food/water/medicine away from my wife and child to give to Slacker-Jack. Exception: If it were a member of my immediate family (brother, sister etc) I'd let them in. Next-door neighbor? See Rule#1 Assess their "usefulness" to you and your situation. If you suspect a parasite: Pack them a lunch and send them on their way! But be polite (they may return with "friends")
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:21:21 PM EDT
Take him/her/them in, you could always eat 'em later. Tom
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:24:54 PM EDT
There comes a time when you have to look out for yourself and let your friends sink. "A dead (or in this case, starving) hero don't do anybody any good." My emt instructor told me that. Rescue yourself first. Evaluate the situation. Then save who you can. Food for my family for 6 months. The situation may be remedied in 5 but who is to say for sure. My family comes first. If it is a stranger they are going to get dropped before they get to my house. If it is a friend with something to trade they are welcome. First thing I would do would be to get out of town as soon as possible with as much as possible and get to my parents (15 min drive or 3 hour walk). If I could not do that and there were looters around I would help the neighbors to give my house a buffer zone, we could hold out for awhile. Most important thing is to be prepared and to not get caught with your pants down.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:31:47 PM EDT
Take them in. There is strength in numbers and they better pull their own weight. However it's my show, any trouble that I feel threatens the security of my family and he's out or dead or both. You say that life will return to normal after 6 months or so, I could not in good conscience turn someone away who was truely in need. When life returned to normal I'm not sure I would like myself very much if this person was turned away and died.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:36:46 PM EDT
I pretty much have list right now of who I would take in. And its a VERY short list.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:42:08 PM EDT
You guys just don't understand the situation, clearly. The solution here is simple: shoot. Shoot strangers. Shoot neighbors. Shoot relatives. Not sure about a particular person? Be safe and shoot him/her. Today's refugee beggar is tomorrow's spikey-haired mutant looter who will happily sodomize you to death and eat you. 6 months worth of food? You mean 6 months worth of ammo don't you? Figure on 500 rounds per weapon per person per day for those immediate family members who are helping you defend your stronghold. If you expect to survive through the dark times ahead you better shed these namby-pamby ideas about taking care of anybody but yourself.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:45:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Golgo-13: Today's refugee beggar is tomorrow's spikey-haired mutant looter who will happily sodomize you to death and eat you.
View Quote
Read "Lucifers Hammer" by larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:46:52 PM EDT
Assuming they are a friend, assuming they would improve my family's chances of making it to Reconstruction, then I'd let them in. Otherwise, even letting them get away presents a risk. Assuming that the would are full of feral punk rockers and crackheads, letting someone know you are there is a sure way to get dead.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:52:25 PM EDT
My dog would immediately alert me to the prescence of a Terminator. Its a no brainer.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 7:56:56 PM EDT
I will go with the strength in numbers. A tight neighborhood will survive and lift the chances of survival for all. Plus you can't just turn away people. They might be able to save your life someday from some would be attacker. Frankly I want someone watching my ass and I will watch theirs. You have a greater chance of being killed inside a hotzone alone then with others. If I find myself alone, I am getting the hell out of dodge to my clandestine "Know the Terrain by the back of my hand" spot. Otherwise I would stay put. Benjamin
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:05:43 PM EDT
To answer the original question: "If you don't care enough about your family to prepare for them, why should I? Do you really think I am going to take food out of my wife's and children's mouths, to feed *your* family?" There are also many people out there who assume that it is wiser to take food at gunpoint, than to simply buy it at the store ahead of time. Makes sense to me. Instead of simply buying 50 dollars worth of food at the store, maybe I should just instigate a risky gunbattle to get the food. If it makes you uneasy to shoot starving people on your doorstep, then you need to arm yourself with Secrecy. Do not blab your preparations. For God's sake, do not blab how much food you have to ordinary sheeple. They will scoff at you today, and consider robbing you tommorrow(if SHTF). No good can come of it. Think your mountain of stored food will last forever, and can feed unlimited numbers of visitors? Then put a sign on your lawn, reading "FOOD GIVEAWAY." You will need a stopwatch to time how long your "year's supply of food for your family" lasted. -------- "Hang my head, drown the fear, till all you (looters) just dissappear."
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:54:36 PM EDT
My friends say the same thing to me. About coming to me when the SHTF, that is. I already have an op order drawn up assigning them each a specific billet. This is mostly based on their skills according to real life, of course. My Marine and Army buddies will be security/hunters/patrol, my farmgirl friend will be in charge of caring for the animals, and the rest will have their jobs, too. Those with no helpful "survival skills" like hunting/gathering will be relegated to the kitchen or strengthening the defensive perimeter. To answer your question, anyone I like or could put to work would be admitted onto the property. Anyone else, probably not. But it depends. You never know what can change. Maybe I would take in children, if I didn't expect combat. Oh, and mejames? Law of the Jungle, man. Law of the Jungle.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 9:00:55 PM EDT
DTA = don't trust anybody! Nobody comes in except family. Period.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 9:20:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 9:31:10 PM EDT
I also have a short list.But you would have to catch up with me to find out if you were on it 'cause i got my stuff ready to go in 5min tops, in the truck in 5min30sec,gone in 6.I'm figuring (in best/worst case secenerio)20 to 23min tops in a nuke attack.Pray for peace,be prepared for the worst and never,never let 'em see ya sweat! As i stated at top you'd have too hurry to see me do that!LOL
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 9:35:54 PM EDT
I am with the beekeeper on this one. My friends will already be prepared. Only members of my family would be admitted, and that b/c they have useful medical skills. The rest are moving reactive targets.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 9:55:38 PM EDT
G@D DAMN! It seems like half or better of you guys I couldnt count on if my house got blown to bits and I came to your doorstep for help. If it were me Id take in everyone and everyone would be assigned a specific duty. IF they didnt want to participate then they would be put out on their own. But killing them is stupid and illogical. I figured pro-gun rights people would have a better solution than "kill'em and eat'em" plan!
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 10:15:19 PM EDT
I guess I cant count on more than half of you if my family gets blown to bits while im out searching for food and fuel. I guess I'll have to follow the same motto some of you follow...every man for himself. Kill the F'ers unless they have a big rack! Yea thats a great stratigic move instead of oraganizing in numbers. Kill the mother F'er and serve him for dinner to your family. Some of you guys should run for the senate or congress.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 5:58:23 AM EDT
Hey, I didn't say i'd waste anyone. but you'd still have to hurry to keep up with me.I want to survive.BTW, NOAH turned away PLENTY of unprepared folks too,and GOD seem to not mind one damned bit.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:03:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:03:38 AM EDT
He wouldn't get past the Claymores on the front lawn, so the point is moot. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:11:47 AM EDT
When I got married, I took a vow to protect my wife. If I were to take anyone in, I would have to be absolutely positive that they could contribute and wouldn't put my loved ones at risk. If it were penniless strangers, I would tell them to get creative and come up with some resources. In such a scenario, the fact that there is no free ride would be a gruesome reality for most.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 6:19:48 AM EDT
I have to agree w/beekeeper
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:12:50 AM EDT
A close circle of friends would be allowed (and we've talked about it). Strangers with something VERY significant to contribute would be allowed in, but would be under watch 24/7. Anyone who couldn't or won't do anything to pull their weight would be 'cast out'. Many hands lighten the load. I would be in charge, and would delegate authority to others I trust to: 1) Secure the perimeter, and protect the encampment. 2) Obtain food - through hunting or looting or whatever means necessary. 3) Obtain fuel and ammunition. 4) Scout for other survivors who could contribute to a unified survival.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 7:14:57 AM EDT
I would take in my friends and their families. Most if not all would come bearing arms, mags, ammo, and maybe some food. They come with a variety of skills (hunting, military, LE, medical, firearms, cooking, labor, etc). They would all have to pull their weight. Everyone would have a job. This would also allow for a small defense force; which would be necessary. With 40,000+ refugees passing by with say 1 to 10% hostile, a single family could not hope to stand against such numbers. (I live in a rural area just outside a suburban area surrounding an urban area.) My friends and neighbors organized into a defense force could defend the two entrances to the neighborhood and set up roving and random patrols throughout. Not only that, but a rapid reaction force (and reserves) would also be required. With a force this size will require not only a defense plan, but logistics, logistics, logistics. You have to look at the bigger picture. If you only look out for your property line, you ain’t going to make it (unless you live in a place so remote that SHTF isn’t going to matter to you anyway). BTW, I don’t think that cash will be a worthless as everyone thinks. There is a limited supply and most people will try to hang on to what they know. Bottom line is I would take in certain people and all would have to pull their weight+.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 8:18:05 AM EDT
slacko and MrP make very valid points do consider thougt millions would die due to lack of nessasary basics such as food@ water in less than a week.That would 'thin the herd'. agree?
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 10:02:47 AM EDT
Neither my wife nor I have a blood relative within a thousand miles of where we presently live. All of our families are on the coasts except for us. I wouldn't expect any of them to show up on our doorstep. Two of the three or four people in the world that I [b]know and trust[/b], aside from those I'm related to, live within fifty miles of my house. They are trained, equipped and ready. We already have our plans and preps, and no one else really knows about it. If lordtrader shows up at my door with all his guns, cases of ammo and an empty belly, he's in, and will be assigned a sector of fire and a shift on firewatch. Otherwise, I have to put my wife's life ahead of a stranger's. I owe that to her for marrying me and putting up with my shiite for all this time. I could never forgive myself if I took in random strangers and they took over the house and hurt her some night. I couldn't --and wouldn't-- take that chance.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 10:19:20 AM EDT
all my friends and family are already prepared. no stranger would get much in the way of discussion, unless they show me NRA/GOA/RKBA etc. or AR15.com credentials and a damned-good reason for being in that unlucky position in the first place (see home-explosion scenario above). i voted #2.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 10:20:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2002 2:58:23 PM EDT by FMJunkie]
Wow, I am really glad to see how this thread played out! Some very good and valid points on both sides here. Although I haven't changed my original position, I definitely took a few points to heart. (especially the BTAT - Big Tits Acceptance Treaty [;D]) Edited because I found out "treaty" isn't spelled with a "P"[whacko])
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 2:37:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJunkie: Wow, I am really glad to see how this thread played out! Some very good and valid points on both sides here. Although I haven't changed my original position, I definitely took a few points to heart. (especially the BTAP - Big Tits Acceptance Treaty [;D])
View Quote
I'll bet a lot of these women have Big Tits. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=83751[/url]
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 2:53:51 PM EDT
I would get the hell out of the city!!! In a more rural setting, I would accept only those people I knew and are of good character. I don't have any delusions of being completely self-sufficient for a long time - ie: years. There's strength in numbers and more people means better resources such as mechanical, medical experience, etc. No welfare programs - You either pull your weight or your out (unless the Big Tits Acceptance Treaty is in effect). [:D]
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 2:56:00 PM EDT
As a member of the "If SHTF I'm comin' to your house" club, I have already made clear that if folks think they are coming to the "compound" they better bring something useful along. If you can fight and sew and fish, you are more useful than someone who can program computers and quote Shakespeare.
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