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Posted: 11/30/2001 5:02:07 PM EDT
Long-ass URL, sorry: [url]http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/29/whunt29.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/11/29/ixhome.html[/url] Isn't it clear that our leaders have something to hide since they are not only going ahead with these miltary tribunals but are doing it on an island that is military controlled and thus cut off from any possible accountability or protest? We tried Noriega in a regular court, but these poor, ignorant Muslims are going to be given a "fair trial" and then promptly executed. Also, what of that prison "uprising"? None of the people inside the prison appeared to be armed. Seems like it was just an easy way to deal with the problem of Taleban prisoners. What good is our country if we don't follow our own high standards of justice?
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 5:06:45 PM EDT
I just honestly don't care what happens to those troublemakers (sorry). What I *do* care about is when the govt. gets around to eliminating the prohibitions on trying citizens by military tribunal on "terrorist" charges. The govt. will get around to declaring every gun-owner a "terrorist," one day. This crackdown on civil rights doesn't happen all at once. It creeps up, little by little, till the froggy boils. ------ "From my cold, dead fingers, (ribbit)."
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 5:08:26 PM EDT
I wouldn't get too worried about these 13 idiots! I don't see much difference between hunting them down and killing them like rabid dogs (you would agree with [u]that[/u], now, wouldn't you?) and giving them military justice, the same as our soldiers would get, and the same as we've given every other captured enemy soldier in the history of our Republic! I simply don't understand, however, why we don't simply let the Northern Alliance do the 'heavy lifting' for us? I mean, from what I've seen, Islamic justice is pretty Old Testament-like in its savagery! Eric The(I'dBeHappyWith'ExhibitionExecutions'AtThe­FutbolStadium!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 5:11:19 PM EDT
Who gives a damn? I am glad the bastards are dead and I hope we fry the ones we try overseas. I used up all my outrage after the WTC.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 5:35:15 PM EDT
this is war, kill them all, or fight them again after they kill your friends or family.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 5:48:00 PM EDT
I hope they all die slow agonizing deaths. Kill them all,I do not care if they die completely as a race,and a religion.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 6:22:10 PM EDT
Secret justice. Wow, that implies a lot of trust on the part of the public. I guess the Bush posse decided that the public having a say in the matter might be a stumbling block. I expect that many things will appear that way to Bush in the future. Kongress is complaining that they no longer are informed whats going on. Karla Faye Tucker was when I had this cat figured out. He would like you to think that his prejudice is Christian, but in that case he wouldn't lift a finger to help one that truly converted. Karla Faye Tucker pleaded to a national audience and Texas justice threw the switch on her. I'm sorry, I didn't get that one.Do you remember her singing "Thank you, for giving to the Lord! I am a life that was changed", on the Barbara Walters program?
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 7:31:33 PM EDT
What a load of crap. Stop whining, you dumbshits. There is excellent reason for having secret tribunals, as opposed to letting our CIA-gathered "intel" be heard in open court, including having its method of acquisition revealed (thanks to defense-lawyer tactics demanding to "know how you found this out, or did you just make it up?"). A Wall Street Journal editorial today mentioned that in the trial of that blind mullah who carbombed the WTC back in 1993, the prosecution was forced to reveal that some of their evidence came from CIA intercepts of Osama bin Laden's satellite telephone conversations. bin Laden immediately stopped using his satellite telephone, thereby eliminating a highly useful intel source. These people are the equivalent of spies -- spies don't get open trials either, they just get convicted and killed, in wartime anyway. This is wartime. I have mixed feelings about Bush in general, but he's done everything right in his "war on terrorism" so far. And, frankly, you can go fuck Karla Faye Tucker up the ass with a pickaxe. After exhuming her, of course. [:p]
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 7:50:34 PM EDT
Achmed you certainly have a way with words! And quite the imagination concerning sexual issues. Are you a closet necrophiliac? Ochen strany mushchina! No empathy at all? Not even for the repentant condemned?
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 8:17:18 PM EDT
She knew what she was getting into; She was asking for it; She was coming on to him. BTW trickshot - I believe you're way outnumbered on this one - fuck 'em
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 9:14:36 PM EDT
#1 - they are not US citizens. Therefore, they do not necessarily have the same rights that we do. #2 - we are at war and they started it. Anything we can do to facilitate the end of the war is fair game as far as I am concerned, subject to the restrictions posed by #1,
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:15:01 AM EDT
Shoot 'em and forget 'em.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:31:37 AM EDT
Those who would wage war against this country are not guaranteed the same rights as citizens of this country. The military tribunals these animals will face will be a far more fair trial than you would get from the thugs they call government. The Taliban's version of justice boils down to: you're accused, you're shot for the crowd in a soccer stadium. America's criminal court was not designed for the prosecution of war criminals and the safeguards built into it is to protect the rights of the citizens of this country. As far as I'm concerned, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. We haven't declared war on the the citizens of Afghanistan, just the terrorists who operate out of Afghanistan. I really couldn't care less if they were executed on the spot. They do not deserve the civility of trial, but they'll get one all the same. Hardly the actions of someone looking to violate the rights of their own citizens, in my opinion. You guys are getting worked up unnecessarily...
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:37:54 AM EDT
71, you have that right...they are soldiers trying to hide in civilian clothes.....they represent a nation of terrorists. just because there is no nation recognizing them.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:57:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Isn't it clear that our leaders have something to hide
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No sh-t. It is called Op Sec.
since they are not only going ahead with these military tribunals but are doing it on an island that is military controlled
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Seems like the best place to have a military tribunal would be on a military installation.
and thus cut off from any possible accountability or protest?
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Who is going to protest? You?
We tried Noriega in a regular court, but these poor, ignorant Muslims are going to be given a "fair trial" and then promptly executed.
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Most of these guys are probably better educated than you and again, who cares if they are guilty. Would you grieve if they killed an "innocent" Nazi in WWII?
Also, what of that prison "uprising"? None of the people inside the prison appeared to be armed.
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Tell that to the widow of the CIA operator who died.
Seems like it was just an easy way to deal with the problem of Taleban prisoners.
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They would do the same.
What good is our country if we don't follow our own high standards of justice?
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Leave you pussy, find a better country. Use your logic in NYC. Scream it to the people who lost loved ones. War is war. Rules of a civilized society went out the window when (they) killed civilians.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 6:33:48 AM EDT
A key point here is that those being tried are NOT US citizens and do not have the rights we have. I have no sympathy for terrorists or those who support them. Terrorism wouldn't be a problem if the Klintonistas hadn't destroyed our military, the CIA, and other agencies from within. If the US hadn't stumbled into Somalia with bad intel. shooting up everything in sight - maybe Muslim extremists wouldn't be so dedicated to murdering our people. If national foreign policy wasn't based on oil - maybe the rest of the world would leave us alone - or respect us. The American government needs to be strong and forceful - but we need not make it a point not to p#ss off every third world country for no reason. I do not have blind faith in government. Thomas Jefferson stated that those who would sacrifice a little personal freedom for temporary security deserve neither. Yes, I even work for the government but understand that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I am concerned about any new precedent of secret criminal trials with secret witnesses, widespread detention of foreign nationals without evidence, and other actions that might lead to the erosion of our civil liberties. Even though this may involve foreign nationals - it reeks of the French Revolution of "guilty until proven innocent". Remember World War II when thousands of Japanese were detained in camps for the crime of being Japanese? America is supposed to be the land of the free - we can be tough on terrorism and still be a free country. More government and more laws is not necessary to achieve this. One need not run over the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to stop terrorism. More taxes are not necessary to fight this war either - stop fraud, waste, and abuse and you will have millions to spend on fighting terrorism.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 6:52:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Karla Faye Tucker was when I had this cat figured out. He would like you to think that his prejudice is Christian, but in that case he wouldn't lift a finger to help one that truly converted. Karla Faye Tucker pleaded to a national audience and Texas justice threw the switch on her. I'm sorry, I didn't get that one.Do you remember her singing "Thank you, for giving to the Lord! I am a life that was changed", on the Barbara Walters program?
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Karla Faye Tucker was a convicted, confessed murederess. That is wonderful that she found religion but why should her sentence not be carried out because of that? I am not flaming, just wondering why you feel this way.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 7:16:35 AM EDT
Putting aside the moral issue of close-chamber proceedings, from reading over a few foreign newspapers, they seem to take the stance that Bush wants the military trials, because the US doesn't have enough evidence to convict them in court. An open court would show the world proof of what those criminals were responsible for. That would silicence some of the world's criticism. It's not worth tainting our long history of fair justice to punish a few of these low-lifes. It also, well I would hope, shut-up some of the anti-war crowd here at home. After the conviction, we take them out back and shoot them. Or, as one poster here suggested, we toss them off of the top of the Sears Tower. That would be poetic justice.z
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 7:34:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom: Bush wants the military trials, because the US doesn't have enough evidence to convict them in court.
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Based on what test? It is like finding your window shot-out and then seeing the kid next door with a BB gun. Even better, let us say the kid threatened to shoot out your windows, you come home and see the kid and broken window. Do you say, “well I did not actually see it so he must be innocent?” This is war, when they killed civilians they threw out the rules of civilized nations. It is not like these people were walking down the street and we picked them up for looking suspicious. They are engaging in the business of terrorism. We cannot tolerate terrorism.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 8:12:44 AM EDT
I don't want to see the situation where we wipe out the people in other countries that oppose the united state's hypocritical definition of democracy. There is a fundamental need to see some of opposition alive and active to keep this out of control government busy giving it something to do and help boost the economy which is presently in the dumps. If or when this govenment has no one else to pick on or it is satisfied to have most of the world under control, they will come after you and your family next..... what else will it have to do to keep it busy. The claim that you are an american and have rights won't mean squat then... any more than it means now.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 9:31:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2001 9:26:52 AM EDT by trickshot]
Yes, I knew I'd be "outnumbered" because the latest Gallup poll shows that 60% of Americans are willing to curtail their civil liberties if Bush says it is necessary. My point is this: Are you warhawks so stupid as to go right along with the American sheeple? This isn't about trying 13 foreign nationals in a kangaroo court. This is about the endgame of something that began with the War on Some Drugs and will not end until all of our rights, including the right to keep and bear arms, have been removed from us. By not caring what happens to the worst of the world, you are paving the way for your own destruction. Remember Nazi Germany? It's all happening over again. Instead of the Jews, this time it's the dirty, smelly afghans who attacked "freedom." When you signal your indifference, you are just tighening the noose around your own neck. The truth is that there is no need for secret trials on faraway islands. If these people truly are unlawful combatants, they can still be tried in open court. There is nothing so secret in the CIA that it can't be heard. They're worried about compromising their own spies, who by the very definition they use are also "unlawful combatants" remember. This is no good for the health of our nation and it only breeds contempt for America. So, yes, I'm outnumbered by a bunch of people who are not thinking clearly about the real issues at hand. I'm not worried about this week or even the coming year. I'm worried about ten years from now--that will be when all these new laws begin to be applied to you & me and it's going to be hell. And be careful who you call a pussy--to me a pussy is someone who doesn't have the balls to call a spade a spade, which fits a lot of "go along to get along" types on this board.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 9:41:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Erasmus: I just honestly don't care what happens to those troublemakers (sorry). What I *do* care about is when the govt. gets around to eliminating the prohibitions on trying citizens by military tribunal on "terrorist" charges. The govt. will get around to declaring every gun-owner a "terrorist," one day. This crackdown on civil rights doesn't happen all at once. It creeps up, little by little, till the froggy boils.quote] I agree, I don't give a rats @$$ about what happens to them, but like you said We are next. FBI already states "Strict constitutionalists" are terrorists... see ya in court :(
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 9:51:14 AM EDT
Remember we are all patriots here until a few weeks back that was considered something of a extremist point of view on par with the second ammendment.Even some news agency's and business did not want the AMERICAN FLAG displayed in their offices or stores.Now people are rallying around the flag the big question is for how long?I really can't belive all the money that was raised and all the hoopla.I haven't seen one fund raiser for ARMY NAVY RELIEF.I don't want to hear how the military takes care of it's own either, been there and done that.There are American kids who this Christmas could no longer have a Daddy and so far the toll stands at three That I know of.So I suppose what I'm saying is if their guilty killem,but they should be tried in front of the American public and the world for all to see how justice is done.After all aren't we the HOME OF THE BRAVE.You know I agree with you all,but lets not stand in the dark here.We have enemy's domestic and foreign trying to destroy our Freedom.GOD BLESS AMERICA
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 9:57:47 AM EDT
Here's a short rant: this was an act of war, not one that would be part the standard docket of civil crimes. War crimes fall int a different category. Weren't nazi party leaders also tried in a military tribunal? This act fits the definition of a war crime, and a military tribunal is the legal means of determination in such cases.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 10:38:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RichinCM: #1 - they are not US citizens. Therefore, they do not necessarily have the same rights that we do.
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unfortunately, while i do agree that they should not be treated as americans, i have one point.. "We consider these truthes to be self evident, THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL".."THAT THEY ARE ENDOWED BY THERE CREATOR WITH CERTAIN UNAILIENABLE RIGHTS..." yes they did a terrible thing, but if we agree to the tribunals, we are violating the beliefes of our forfathers as much as the tyrants are.. i belive they should be tried openly, but with some evidence being closed to public eyes. this would satisfie all interests conserned.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 11:02:45 AM EDT
Damn, some of you guys are harsh! I think trickshot has a valid point... ANYTHING the government does in secrecy should be questioned. I could give a shit if they all burn at the stake... After they've been tried! If our system of law were to be broken down, what do you think it'll be replaced with? A police state. If these assholes are being tried as war criminals then the tribunals are nothing new, however they should be open to public review, maybe with certain elements censured by the court to protect our intelligence sources.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 11:09:23 AM EDT
Yes it is sickening.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 4:52:32 PM EDT
Well the most important thing that is being missed is the fact this sets a new legal precedent. Every decision in law is based on other decisions, good or bad. As precedent is set and time goes by, the basis for application of the precedent becomes wider. When you depart from held laws into new areas you cannot know the boundary of what you are beginning. Who ever envisioned partial birth abortion when Roe v. Wade was decided?
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 4:59:03 PM EDT
I don't see anything harsh about it. In fact, the US is being too kind to these "out of uniform" combatants or otherwise called terroists. International law allows for the immediate execution of those combatants out of uniform. This is because it is important to be able to distingush combatants from non-coms. In WWII, this would have been swiftly done on both sides.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:07:27 PM EDT
I sense a tab bit of hypocrisy here. The same people that will call you a racist for speaking in ebonics and swear the Government is trying to kill us all are now saying fuck anybody with brown skin and a towel on their head and "you can trust the government".
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:24:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MOLITAS: I hope they all die slow agonizing deaths. Kill them all,I do not care if they die completely as a race,and a religion.
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Jews or Arabs?
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 1:50:46 AM EDT
My main concern is using a legitimate war on terrorism to set a bad precedent where American laws and principles could be "waved" to fight enemies of America - real or imagined. Al Quaeda and other terrorist networks should be eliminated off the face of the earth - but this can be done without passing massive amounts of unconstitutional legislation that allows "Big Brother" to monitor the movement of every citizen. Or having secret trials. If the Taliban or Al Quaeda are put on trial ( better to kill them at ground zero) - I feel the public should see a legitimate court the hammers the guilty with evidence. Not to mention that secret judicial procedings may play well into extremist Muslim propaganda making terrorists "martyrs". Remember - we are "citizens" - not subjects and our system of law must not ever change this.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 1:56:17 AM EDT
personally i think that if anybody has a problem with these military tribunals then i must ask you are you trully an american? personally i think that even american citizens involved in terrorist activities related to the fundamentalist muslim cause should be tried for they have all declared war on america(US and non US extremists related to this muslim belief) what ever happened to consequences for ones actions. give them a trial,get whatever intel from them, then execute them, rid the world of these scum bags. you see that is the trouble with the world today to much being nice and not enough making people responsible for their actions. the american public has been brain washed with all of this clinton bull sh#t for eight years and have all gone soft. our nations sovernty is at stake i say kill all these muslim extremist. just think if al gore was president,do you think we would be doing this well in the war? personally i think he would have pissed his pants and made the problem worse, at least we have a president that has an administration with a back bone and is willing to PISS SOME PEOPLE OFF TO GET THE JOB DONE. war is sick and grewsome if you dont like it move out of my country!!!!!! and as far as who critized bush for executing the women in texas even after she was a christian, well i myself am a firm believer that their are consequences for our actions and her crimes warranted the death penalty,christian or not.just because she converted dont mean didly doodo,and bush is a christian and i believe he did the right thing then, and i believe he is doing the right thing know. good job USA.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 6:45:30 AM EDT
I can't believe this conspiratorial-the-sky-is-falling-hyper-paranoia. Terrorists, who are dedicated to destroying us, are getting "tried" in a military court, and ya'll are whining and boo-hooing? do you think they should be dragged into court and each get a $100 million dollar O.J. Simpson trial? Where all or military intelligence secrets will be revealed, and billions of dollars wasted, all to stroke your fetish that they should get an "American Justice" trial? Why do you have some hysterical fear that if they dont get an "L.A. Law" trial YOU'LL be next. what a proposterous leap of logic! And then there's the "well just look they are trying to take our guns away so that means we are next" argument. Please. The constitution requires "due process." Just enough to ensure they aren't getting shot or tossed with no good reason. we allow our own crooks to be let free on a technicality even though we know they are guilty because we take this process to the extreme. We DON'T have to do this for these people who make war on us. This isnt a great depature from our law (hell you didnt even have 4th amendment rights until the 1960s, when it was first applied to the states).
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 7:08:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Also, what of that prison "uprising"? None of the people inside the prison appeared to be armed. Seems like it was just an easy way to deal with the problem of Taleban prisoners. What good is our country if we don't follow our own high standards of justice?
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Please. "None of the people inside the prison appeared to be armed", It took hours and hours for the gunfire to subside in that battle, even AFTER the air strikes. How could this be if as you say, "None of the people inside the prison appeared to be armed"? Why do you bend over backwards to believe this anti-American tripe? Get your priorities straight, man.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 7:19:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By levi: I don't want to see the situation where we wipe out the people in other countries that oppose the united state's hypocritical definition of democracy. There is a fundamental need to see some of opposition alive and active to keep this out of control government busy giving it something to do and help boost the economy which is presently in the dumps. If or when this govenment has no one else to pick on or it is satisfied to have most of the world under control, they will come after you and your family next..... what else will it have to do to keep it busy. The claim that you are an american and have rights won't mean squat then... any more than it means now.
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Typical post from levi. Demonstartes his hatred for America. This is my favorite levi post: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=54740[/url] This one truly illustrates his full character, or lack there of.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 3:38:59 PM EDT
Actually I was concentrating on YOUR lack of character Major. It would appear you are an enemy of anyone that has a little faith in God.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 3:45:47 PM EDT
Sorry trickshot but I'm sick of being "Politically Correct". These people are not deserving of protection by our constitution. Fry the bastards!
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 3:55:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By J_Smith: I do not have blind faith in government. Thomas Jefferson stated that those who would sacrifice a little personal freedom for temporary security deserve neither. Yes, I even work for the government but understand that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Sorry bud that was Ben Franklin that said that. --- Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security. --- Ben Franklin
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 4:02:37 PM EDT
personally i think that if anybody has a problem with these military tribunals then i must ask you are you trully an american?
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Why is this Clinton-esque idea, that we should ignore the parts of the Constitution that we don't like, so prevalent? Many here complain when the Democrats repeatedly ignore the second amendment. Now, we're supposed to allow the government to trash many of the other rights guaranteed by the Constitution? Either you believe in the Constitution and what this country stands for, or you stand against this country. I know it's easy to push aside our tradition of justice, because we're angry, but doing so would be surrendering to them and giving them the victory they fight for.z
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 7:10:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2001 7:02:30 PM EDT by trickshot]
I'm not crying and boo-hooing, and I understand that these are non-citizens. [b]HOWEVER[/b] the problem is this: US laws don't generally apply to non-citizens, just as laws in places like, oh say, China, don't (thankfully) apply to us. By extending US law internationally, we run the risk of having the same thing done to Americans at some point in the future. Furthermore, I don't think it is necessary to convene a military tribunal on a faraway island unless you have something to hide--for instance, the efficacy of trying soldiers for "war crimes" just because they are combatants against the US. The law cuts both ways--this is an undeclared war, don't forget. Americans can just as easily be accused of atrocities and acting in an illegal manner. Congress should declare war. Of course, that would mean a negotiations process would ensue that might screw up the conquerors who are currently pursuing the military option above all else. This is war all right, the dirtiest kind of all. Now it appears that it is going to be exported to Somalia and Iraq as well. Very disingenuous and reeking of ulterior motives. Don't call me names--I feel very badly for Americans who sign up for the military thinking that they are doing something noble and then getting used as pawns for a game involving who knows what kind of backroom deals. The Gulf War was bad enough, this one may never end! Now Ashcroft wants to spy on religious groups and political groups. We already know that the ATF and FBI and whoever keep track of people like us on these gun boards. There is only one place for all this to end, and it ain't in a freer, safer world for your run of the mill American citizen who is footing the bill for this misadventure. So my point is this: It's your neck going into the noose. You'd better pay attention. The suicide bombings that are routine in Israel can easily come here, and that's just for starters.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 7:13:02 PM EDT
my response is to zoom and others. first off i dont mean to flame on you but my first question to you is have you ever been in the military? and second if you have have you ever needed to put your life on the line to defend our constitution? first off i have done both.you see all of you who think that these military tribunals are illegal,and do not fall into the area of our constitution then you should stop listening to the democrats and the pissed off republicans who are pissed because they are not in the loop of things, so they cant go leaking stories to the press to make themselves look good. the president has followed the rules. do your homework research,research,research. see the poiticians are counting on uninformed americans being minipulated by the winds of politics it is all about power to these people not really what is good for our nation. i still stand these terrorists have declared war on us. these people consist of US AND NON US citizens. we need to completly stomp and crush these people or we wont have a country left. i am not worried about my civil liberties because this whole thing is not about civil liberties. the congress is pissed because they dont have control so to speek,the dems are pissed because they want the republicans to look bad for the 2002 elections, and some republicans are whinning becaue they are out of the loop for info, so get imformed, dont be a casualty of the winds of emotional politics. oh and i hated clinton he destroyed our military and our civil liberties, i voted for bush, and a matter of fact i was in washington dc in 1997 during the promise keepers event and i and 9 others prayed at the congress for a rightous president one who would stand up to the garbage and do the right things. so do your research other than watching c-span,cnn,or other liberal tv networks.
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 8:35:39 PM EDT
PAPA101-FISH, thanks for calmly replying. It's often hard to have a civil discussion on issues like this. I'm 73, and I fought for freedom in the US and in three foreign countries. First was Korea in the US Army. Tomorrow, I'm going to the funeral of a man I grew-up with and spent time fighting in Africa with. I saw him put himself in harm's way several times, and I heard about more from his time in the Navy (when I wasn't with him). I just followed. Also, I spent much of the 60's doing what I could, by teaching classes and giving legal advise, to help blacks in South Carolina, mainly in Columbia, SC. I still have the scars, slight limp, nightmares, and permanent frown (at least that's why my wife thinks I look worried all of the time) from those experiences. But, I am still ashamed I haven't done more to fulfill my dream that one day all men will have the same rights and freedoms that I have enjoyed. PAPA101-FISH wrote:
stop listening to the democrats and the pissed off republicans
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I don't have a TV, so I haven't been playing much attention to what they've been saying. ;) Maybe, we should stop with the Democrat vs. Republican comments. Also, my "Clinton-esque" comment was a bit over the top. This issue transcends party lines.
dont be a casualty of the winds of emotional politics.
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In my opinion, I respectfully believe you are the one that is letting your emotions control you. Do you love your Constitution more than you love the desire for revenge? Don't lose what you love to gain a temporary thrill. I say temporary, because we will outlive them to face bigger challenges. In "The American Crisis," Thomas Paine used the phrase "sunshine patriot to describe those who support freedom, our country, and the Constitution only when it is easy. It was taken from the phrase "sunshine soldier," that literally means the soldiers who are only willing to fight when the weather is comfortable (e.g. not in the middle of winter). I named my son Thomas, because I could not think of a person I more admire than the man who helped write the Declaration of Independence (some say he wrote the entire first draft) and the man who first used the phrase "The United States of America." It's not easy to protect the rights of those we do not agree with, especially when they are willing to harm the ones we love, but doing so shows that we love our country and our rights more than we love personal revenge. I'm not saying we (both individually and as a country) should give-up the right to self-defense, because the right to protect ourselves is more sacred than all others. Without this right, no other right matters. I think many of the people proposing closed chamber trials are "sunshine patriots." They are only supporting our rights when it is easy. Now that we are being tested, they aren't strong enough to stick to their ideals. We will need all of the free, educated, and armed men we can muster to handle the future. Enslaving men under the rule of a more oppressive government, rewarding mediocrity (thus discouraging learning), and disarming men is not the way to protect freedom. (cont)
Link Posted: 12/2/2001 8:36:10 PM EDT
(cont) PAPA101-FISH, I have a simple request for you. Anytime, you, or a sizeable group of people, think something might run counter to a right that the Founding Fathers enumerated in the Constitution, stop and take measure. If you think it might run counter to their wisdom, then be concerned. Also, you seem to dismiss the concern over giving-up rights as only "politics." While I'm sure most of it is, because many Demo-rats will do anything possible to make Bush look bad, I believe there is some merit to the concern. I have faith we can defeat these challenges without having to resort to questionable practises. It might take longer and take more work, but doing what is right isn't always easy. Tonight at a mortuary, I saw about a hundred people that knew my friend. I didn't see anyone there that I knew well. All of them are either gone, live out of town with their children because they can no longer care for themselves, or are unable to leave their nursing home. I feel alone, and I don't know who will continue the fight to make sure the rights, that men better than us gave their lives to defend, are still here for future generations.z
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 1:27:00 AM EDT
hey zoom first off i would like to thank you for your service to our nation in a time of need. i accept the amount of wisdom that is in your response. a few thinngs though that i would like to comment on. first is that in history military tribunals have been used by other presidents in time of war. first being george washington, and military tribunals were used in i believe WWII. our court systems today have been so influenced by politics that i truly believe that military tribunals are the best way to handle such individuals(terrorist).our founding fathers put forth away for military actions against us to be dealt with in a court system devised of military tribunals,not in our normal justice system. even though i see the politics in our justice system, and as flawed as it is i find that our system is the best in the world,fair,impartial,and just. but in a war situation our justice system is not designed for such trials,that is why their are military tribunals. in the case of these terrorists their are all kinds of things that our justice system is not designed to handle.their are issues of safety,secrecy,and jury tampering,and then the issues of politics on top of that.thanks to clinton and his people our intellegence community has been severally crippled and what ways we have to keep tabs on these peole(terrorists) should remain secret for the sake of our national security. i would not want myself,friends,loved ones,or other americans to sit on a jury of an accussed terrorist,for our lives would be in jepordy for the rest of the time we are on the face of this earth,these terrorist dont care who you are,they will do you in without blinking an eye.i do not want revenge,i want justice. and our founding fathers devised away for military tribunals to be legal in a time of war. and we are at war.i myself would fight in any situation if the need aroused rain,heat,snow, it would not matter to me. i love america and for what it stands for. i am not as wise in years as you,for i am only half your age,but i love this country and for what is available to us here in america. the last eight years i have been so sickened in my heart of all of the things that the last administration did to weaken us as a nation,and i am happy that we have someone in office at least for four years that has the guts to do something about this situation.bush might not be perfect,but at least he will try to do the right things for america,and not for his own political advance.yes i might be somewhat overtaken at times by my emotions,but it is for the pattion that i have for our nation,and for what has happened to it on sept.11. if i could volunteer as a private citizen to go over and serve our county i would.i am interested in justice,not revenge,i have had to continually keep my heart in check so to speak because their can be a fine line that is crossed,and when that happens bitterness and hate can set in and i do not like being that kind of person.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 1:42:40 AM EDT
contiue zoom i admire your service to our country and others that have served to protect what we have and i do not want to see that taken away by these terrorist,and uniformed people that do not know completly that military tribunals are the way to deal with war crimes. civil liberties are not at stake for US citizens unless these terrorist are dealt with,swiftly and justly. for if they are not dealt with they will destroy our nation, then what,your service,and others would have meant nothing.many would have died for what? for all of us to either convert to islam or be executed? i would rather be tortued and die than convert to islam. these terrorists plans are to rule the world, kinda like hittler. they have the same mentallity they want the whole world to believe the same way they beleive and they will stop at nothing to try to accomplish this,if you are in thier way they will destroy you. so it is not time to be kind,it is time for justice,justice is not always kind, it is being held accountable for ones actions, faceing the consequences for ones actions. just think if the world was kind to hittler, would the world look like it does today? i dont think back then people were worried about nazi's being protected and questioning wheather war tribunals were fair, they wanted the evil dealt with, and president bush and his team are dealing with this evil mentallity to save our civil liberities and what america stands for and trying to rid the world of this evil mentallity.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 3:58:03 AM EDT
My real problem with this is if you are innocent until proven guilty how can you be called a terrorist and subjected to the military tribunal? You have already been convicted to some degree, have you not? By designating some people to an alternate justice system, and having the American people accept it, we lay the ground work for having it used against our citizens. After a few years of it working so well against foreign terrorists it's only a short step to US citizen terrorists. Now, who is a terrorist?
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 4:05:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Actually I was concentrating on YOUR lack of character Major. It would appear you are an enemy of anyone that has a little faith in God.
View Quote
Hmmm.... I guess you have some BIG issues. Where exactly did I mention God in this post? "an enemy of anyone that has a little faith in God" An enemy, huh? You need to see somebody about this.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 4:37:49 AM EDT
resonse to halfcocked first off we are at war. when a nation is at war war criminals are and should be dealt with in a way that is subject to war crimes,not normal day to day judicial prodcedings. as far as innocent until proven guilty,one would not be in front of a war tribunal unless the government had suffienct evidence to present its case. the job of the defense would be to give adiquit defense to the accussed. just as the same in a normal judical proceeding. you are tried on the facts of the case,presumed innocent until judged. in a war tribunal one would be accussed of being a terrorist as evidence would be presented to either support or negate this fact. then the individauls on the panel would hear the evidence and make a ruling just as juriers would hear the evidence in a normal proceding and make a ruling of either guilty or not guilty. as far as this setting some kind of precident sure things need to be looked at as far as what constitues one as a terrorist,but military tribunals are only constitually sound for times of war and that is it. say if an american was accussed of terrorism then they would go through the normal judicial process such as that timothy mcvay did. do americans forget about timothy mcvay? what he did was an act of terrorism on the united states. did he not get his day in court? did he not get the appeals,after appeals. to many people are being paranoid and not looking at the facts.the facts are that non US citizens have declared war on the US and need to be dealt with so america is not destroyed.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 4:46:00 AM EDT
When the Marines ambush Taliban and Al Qaeda troops that are fleeing Khandahar, should they read them their rights, first? Actually, how can we legally ambush them? Maybe we should have a trial first, to determine whether or not each one of them is guilty. THEN we can ambush them. It wouldn't be legal for cops to just lay in wait and then ambush suspects, would it? So maybe we should just try to arrest them all. Oh yeah, I forgot we're at WAR.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 4:50:57 AM EDT
Just to keep things in perspective for me. I believe one of the military trials put in prison a political adversary of the president, at that time. Thank you zoom for reminding me that wheels of justice sometimes take a long time. Someone mention doing research, being involved in cardiac for many years I have learned to look at ALL factors, not just the ones that support your hypothesizes. So yes do your research of America, but not just from one side. We had a saying in Nam that “military intelligence” was an oxymoron. I lost 2 men because military intelligence was wrong. I learned a statement many years ago “Beware of stupid people in large numbers” so a 60% approval rating and seeing what’s happing and putting together a statement I’ve heard from out president that the best way to rule is by dictatorship (which by that way it is) is scary, at least for me My 15 minutes are up, [:\]
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