How come I never get to run into the "Kindler gentler let me go CHP" dude?  YOu guys have all the luck.

There wasn't really any need for the smart ass face (although it was a nice touch).  If some one is too damn stupid to understand why letting an officer of the law get away with assault is detrimental to society, chances are he won't understand you sarcasm.

Just out of curiosity, how would feel if ten years from now you are retired, and I'm a cop.  I pull you over, and rough you up [b]for no good reason[/b].  Where would stand on that issue?  Would you wonder, at all, why your tax dollars are going to getting the shit kicked out of you?  

If the situation is as you described it, remember there is always two sides to the story, you could have a very good case of excessive use of force.

The video thing is very valid.  Most HP's, now have in car video systems.  Narcotics interdiction is a big thing and in car video are almost vital in the trial procedure.  There is a high probability that your stop was vidoed.

File your complainant, immediatly!  Get that video impounded, get an attorney who is famaliar with excessive use of force issues and start raising hell!

Good luck!

Perfect.  Even though a person has been through criminal background checks, approved by every state agency, etc to carry a gun, you'll take it away just because you can.  You just crossed over to the dark side with that one.  This makes you officially one of "them".

Fuchk those doucheBAGS the ""least"" I would do is file a complaint,make sure it goes to a proper section,alot end up in the trash.....SUE! the cops hate when their told they are wrong/liable.

I have to agree with Palmer on that one, in a car-stop situation where the person being stopped tells the officer he is [b]LEGALLY[/b] carrying a firearm and produces a [b]LEGALLY[/b] owned firearm, I would still take it away during the duration of the carstop for [b]MY[/b] safety as well as the [b]LEGAL[/b] gun owner's safety.  A carstop is one of the most dangerous things police officers do and we cannot assume anything.
To all you non-LEO's out there, think about it for a second. How cool would you be if you pulled over a vehicle and say for example, it was a late Saturday night, poorly lit and the vehicle you pulled over had tint dark enough so that you couldn't see how many people were inside and what they were doing. Here in NYC we do stops with a partner so you have some backup but what if you worked for a Dept. where you rode ALONE. Now the person tells you that he/she is carrying a legally owned firearm. You don't know this person from a hole in the wall, and you don't know where they are coming from or going to. Are you going to let them keep their weapon for the duration of the carstop OR are you going to maintain a tactical advantage by taking it away? Let's be honest here now. Of course at the end of the stop the [b]LEGAL[/b] firearm would be returned to the owner.

Waverunner,

Would you do the same thing to an officer from another jurisdiction that you happened to stop?  You don't know the officer personally and he is armed.  Do you disarm him?

Aggie1

NO, I take it away for MY safety. When you assume, you get hurt, one cannot assume someone is trustworthy because they carry a CCW.        #1: I stopped A "CCW" in 1995 for leaving the scene of an accident. When I stopped him, got to his window, he pointed his firearm AT me, as he laughed and said don't shoot I've got a gun. Turns out the gun was unloaded and he was drunk as a skunk. He's was very fortunate not to get a bullet in his head.

#2: Same year, after another "routine" stop(w/CCW). Found out thirty minutes after I let him go, that an hour before the stop, this guy had killed his wife and ten year old daughter. He was arrested later that day at his brothers house. When I went to see him at the station, he pointed to me from inside his cell and said, "thats the cop that stopped me, I was going to shoot em but got too nervous." He was going to shoot me after I returned to his car to give his information back to him because he figured I would have known he just killed his wife and daughter.

So I don't need an armchair warrior to tell me how to conduct myself while working. At the end of the night I'am going home to my wife and child.

Where in my posts did I say that the cops did the right thing, I didn't. In fact, I stated, by the story given, the cops where as*holes. I do not agree what they did. SOME people seem to think that we don't pay taxes, so everyone else who pays taxes, pays our salary. Taxes do pay for salaries, of coarse, but I also pay huge taxes, so I pay my own salary.

If you stop an off duty cop that is carrying, do you take away his gun for his safety also or is this just a civilian thing?

Just like the cops did at Columbine High School.  Wonderful.  

BTW, the crime rate for CCWs is lower than that for cops.  Maybe us mere "civilians" should be disarming the cops for both of our saftey.

Um, I suppose that illegal guys with illegal guns who don't make a declaration that they are carrying are OK? I would think that it's a courtesy to the officer to let them know that you are a responsible citizen and armed. As far as one of the earlier comments, If an officer asks me to hand him my gun, I think that I would ask him to handcuff me to the steering wheel and retrieve it himself. Or something to that effect. I really wouldn't feel comfortable retrieving a firearm under the conditions of a traffic stop.

Generally speaking, Highway Patrol Officers are tow truck drivers with badges. You said the officer had an FTO pin and the follow up unit looked new, probubly a training team riding echo.

Did they make a bigger deal of the gun than they should have? Yes.

As for you, in your day to day life, you practise poor operational security. Which has resulted in you getting parking tickets, your registration being expired and being stranded in a bad part of town. That doesnt mean you deserve the treatment you got, but it means it could have been avoided.

WOOHOO....lot's o smoke in here.....so deputy dawg, what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand? Carrying legally is covered in the BOR. And just because I didn't pay my taxes to the angry police entitlement fund, I guess I won't be treated as well as the "legal" CCW's
Can anyone else be happier than me at the idea that no one wants to be a cop anymore.......yeah
no more report writers who just want to go home at the end of the day......SO DO I!!!

PS. Once again my apologies and highest regards to the guys in New York.

I felt like explaining my position regarding the
New York people. As plainly seen in my last post, I have a big Bias against so-called law enforcement officers. By their own admission the are report writers and have no legal duty or responsibility to do anything but fill out paperwork. BUT many Armed civilians wearing uniforms go beyond their legal duties in a good way. Many don't do this in a good way. The guys in New York said good-bye to the world and their
homes and died trying to help. And the brothers of the fallen gave time without being paid to help afterward. This earned my respect for most of the NYPD and fire department even though many of the guys up in New York are rotten to the core....thanks again guys and know that there are people else where in the country who will never forget your brothers who left us early.

Did you read why I didn't have current registration?  I got a bogus ticket that I never even saw, much less signed and I only found out about it WHEN I WENT TO REGISTER!
so screw your theory about my "opsec". Sorry, I'll try to get pulled over in a better neighborhood next time.

I do not cow before authority, to a cop, judge or to the pencil pusher at the DMV!
Should I have just said "shucks, heres another $300 for a parking fine I never recieved. Thank you for allowing me to re-register my vehicle?"

I'm still waiting for my court date about that, because I ended up having to pay the parking fine to get my jeep out of impound.

I'm curious about this... Waverunner, Palmer, Hunduh, how would you guys answer this?  Not trying to provoke you, but I want to know what the cop mentality is.

So if I gather correctly...
1. You take action upon the personal examples you've seen and not the actual number nationwide.  As correctly stated, the crime rate for LEO's in general is higher for CWP holders.  So I suppose it's a good thing that you use your "bad apple" method otherwise you'd be disarming every LEO that walked by you at the station.



2. An opinion is rated not on it's own merits, but based upon the opinion giver?

Please feel free to correct me if I inferred incorrectly....I'm just attempting to take in what you're saying.

Also, you're not alone on this...there are many people who react differently to LEO's based upon a few "bad apples."  That shouldn't be, but it exists.

Last, for those that work hard and risk their lives daily in and for the U.S., there is a basic concept that military and police have civilian oversight (granted on a higher level).  Or in other words, the design is so that you do have an armchair warrior telling you how to conduct yourself.

You sure you just don't want to get a little deeper into the govt. pockets? If you hate the "jackboots" so much maybe you should just close your range to them. What will it be principles or money?

Going back to page 1 on the orignal posting of this thread...

For those highway patrol officers I give them:
- 4 out of 5 stars for tactical action and efficiently immobilizing any possible threat
- 1 out of 5 stars for using their head and assessment (officer #2 may have been acting upon the words of officer #1, so points only count for officer #1)

True...I'm sure we could possibly nitpick here and there if there was a video to watch and work from.  But just using the 1st-hand reports, even the officers in the Diallo case actually had more of a basis to base their actions upon.

Please don't jump on Hunduh, Palmer, and Waverunner, they are being honest.

Hunduh, said some stuff about the Highway Patrol, It is probably him being funny, venting, and partially saying how he feels. And it should show you that all LEO's don't just stick together. Yes there are depts. that really don't like one another. Like any industry where 2 companies do similar work there are bound to be rivalries, or for that matter divisions within the same company. FYI most uniformed officers have no use for the FBI, for a variety of reasons.

Waverunner, and Palmer, said they would take a gun from a CCW holder. A few of you got jumpy on that. Have you thought about it??? I  mean really! They work in NYC, where you have to be "connected" somehow to get a CCW. Plus there would be so few of them in NYC it would be a rarity to run into one. Think about that for a second before you get to judging what the would do, please.

Rereading my post, I think I did jump a bit hard.  My apologies.  So to be clear, I don't take exception with the officer, I have a somewhat opposing opinion on the concept of the blanket response.

"I see future law enforcement training on my home range and it aint pretty. They can't shoot for shit and are generally unkempt and leave my range a mess. I'm trying to get their fees doubled for range useage as we are having rounds leave the range and more then likely they are the cause."

My range extends the same courtesy to local LEO's and Treasury dept guys (from mint at West Point) with generally the same results but the treasury guys CAN shoot (And can use the range at WP so why they use ours??)The metality being that they will be cut a break if the govt starts cracking down (IF!)on gun owners --most of the guys at this place feel that hunting rifle good -- black rifle or semi auto bad But dont realize they are cutting off thier nose to spite thier face--despite the fact that they are techniclly guests they often ask members to leave or occupy all firing positions when someone not in thier group shows up or spend an hour checking targets etc leave brass all over and target stands out on the range I have even seen them firing with others down range! Most of the time I just leave or just bring out the mauser and 10-22 till they leave some of tehm are nice but a few are dicks I had one stride over and litterally rip the 10-22 out of my hands (loaded and cocked safety on)Like a DI and proceed to lookfor and write down the serial number before giving it back to me like he was saying "Im gonna check this out and see what I can come up with" type of attitude two of the other cops with him are guys I went to HS with.
Luckilly I watched him fighting with his glock later and was relievd to see at 12 yards he couldnt hit a barn door. Most of these guys are decent for the most part but one or two butthead nazi's give a department a bad name.
I dealt with the Georgia State Patrol once or twice while I had a gun in the car and as long as I did not try to hide it from them and let them know at the outset of the traffic stop I had no problems at all I am pretty sure once I get my NY permit (if ever at this rate)and get my guns up here the NYSP and local PD's will probably be another story

Gunbert, I'd say you get what you deserve when knowingly breaking the law. Quit your bitching, pay the parking ticket and correct the registration problem. In the meantime, observe the law and don't drive the vehicle on public roadways.

Fuck you.  You go out and be a good little doobie, and do what the man says. You're a tool.
You'd pay an assessment that somone just says you owe? Without signing anything? ...Oh I just noticed you're from Kalifornia... Berkely perhaps?  Sad that you've been indoctrinated to do what you're told without question.  I was brought up a little differently, I guess.
 
As I said before, I have no problem with the fact that I got pulled over, or that the car was impounded... I knew what risk I was running there. However, absolutely nothing would've happened if I had not been legally armed; I would've had my jeep towed and told to walk out of there... and that's it.  Not all the other BS that I had to deal with.  I wouldn't even have minded if they'd taken the weapon and held it till we were done... that's happened before, and no cop's ever felt the need to pull me out of the car and frisk me.

Well, I've been stopped a few times by Houston police and sheriff's department deputies (never by the DPS) while carrying.  In Texas, you have to produce your carry license with your drivers license.  Never has anything been made of it, including the request to surrender my weapon, which by Texas law I would be obliged to do.

Ah yes... an NYC CCW. I think I saw a picture once. It was in this book, right between the chapters on unicorns and hobbitts. :)

It's really a shame. There's only one major city in the NE where one can enjoy the benefits of a big city AND carry, and that's Philadelphia. After that you need to go south to Richmond (if you call that a city) or Atlanta. I grew up just outside Boston in a town that was shall-issue, so I could carry...the folks that lived in the city couldn't.

Gunbert, your acting like a bitching idiot. You don't realize that routine pull-overs with expired tags are more dangerous to LEOs statically. So the officer's awareness factor is already on overload, wants to go home to his family at the end of the shift, and he finds out that you're carrying. WTF do you think is going to happen? LEO's are going to kiss your behind?

If anyone is carrying, NEVER put yourself in a position where you are breaking the law. Granted, you thought that expired tags is no big deal, smaller than the big deal you're making of that parking ticket, but now you know.

If you don't believe me, think about how many violent criminals that were caught because of expired tags. Now do you see? The bottom line is that you need to own up to your actions that originally put you into the situation your bitching about.

Let me relate my experience with the Texas Highway Patrol near Henrietta, Texas, approx. 5 years ago.

REALERIC and I were coming home from a trip out to my farm. In the rear window of my pickup was a rifle rack with a single weapon - a Colt CAR-15, with a Colt scope attached, but no magazine.

I was headed South, when I crossed the overpass at the intersection of US Hwy 287 and Hwy 82, and met a DPS car coming from the opposite direction.

My radar detector 'went off the dial!' I was only traveling about 62 MPH in a 65 MPH zone, but when I looked at the patrol car, both DPS officers had swung their heads around and were looking at me!

I told REALERIC that we were going to get stopped.

Sure enough, the patrol car appeared in my rear view mirror, overtaking us at a very high rate of speed! Lights came on!

I pulled over into a Rest Area and parked next to the curb. I got out with my license and insurance card with me.

When both DPS officers exited their patrol car, I could see that they were both looking at the weapon in my rifle rack! Sure enough, the first words out of the driver's mouth -
'what sort of weapon is that?'

'It's a Colt AR-15, officer,' I replied.
'Is it full or semi-auto?' he queried.
'Semi-auto, of course.'
'Well, a lot of people convert them to full auto!'
'Not this person, officer.'
'Well, I need to take possession of that weapon during this stop.'
'Officer, if you think I'm gonna make a play for that weapon, why don't we step to the rear of my truck?'
'No, I need to run the serial number to see if it's stolen.'
'It's not stolen, officer, but you make check it.'

He let me take the weapon down from the rifle rack, I handed it to him, and he and his partner took the weapon back to their car.

First thing I saw them do was to break open the rifle. Mighty strange place to be looking for serial numbers!

After about ten minutes, they exited their car and gave the weapon back to me, saying 'it's not stolen.'

'Officer, I told you that!'
'But I'm going to have to write you a ticket for speeding, I clocked you going 70 MPH in a 65 MPH zone.'
'Whatever!' I cleverly responded.

After he finished the ticket and handed it to me, I asked him -

'Is Patty ___ still Judge Robinson's secretary here in Henrietta?'
'Yes, why, do you know her.'
'Yes, her husband Sammy and I work in the same office building in Dallas.'
'Really, what do you do for a living?'
'I'm an attorney.'
'What kind, civil or criminal?'
'Better than either of those, I'm a bankruptcy attorney.'
'Well, I'm might have to come see you one of these days.' (HeHeHe!)
'Yes, well, I'll be sure to include the cost of the ticket in any fee I charge you!'(HeHeHe!)

So after we got back on the road, REALERIC said that he believed we were stopped simply because someone in Wichita Falls probably called the Highway Patrol, telling them of a white Chevy pickup was heading South on 287 with a machine gun in the rifle rack!

'Well, REALERIC, this is [b]Texas[/b] and that rifle's legal, I'm not about to take it down!'

About ten miles further South, another Highway Patrol vehicle was approaching us headed North, when it suddenly made a u-turn across the median after we passed.

'All right, all right, I'm taking the friggin rifle down, REALERIC!'

The patrol car did not attempt to stop us, but who needs another headache!

Eric The(FastLearning)Hun[>]:)]

Unfortunately, in SC, you must tell a LEO that you have a CCWP whether you're carrying or not. Nobody, even the state AG, believes that's what the legislature MEANT when they wrote the law, but it's what it says... And since we've got more to lose by breaking the law, we does what the law says.

I don't care if your tax money goes toward your own salary.  I care that my tax money goes to  LEO salaries as compensation for them to do their job, not hose me in the face with mace for no reason.  That was my point.

If it's not illegal not to inform that you are CCW in your state then it's your choice.

If I was to stop a guy (not usually part of my job) and he told me he was carrying, I wouldn't consider it a big deal at all. Now if I found out he was trying to HIDE the fact he was carrying then that would create a problem, like right after he gave me a false name, address, false DOB, fake ID ETC. That could be bad.

Sounds like the guys in NV are a little high strung. Zip locking your pistol is total bull shit. Just give the guy back his sidearm and if he tries to use it on you, shame on him.

PS Those of you that think all LEOs can't shoot straight haven't seen all the LEOs shoot....

Aggie1 asked, "Would you do the same thing to an officer from another jurisdiction that you happened to stop? You don't know the officer personally and he is armed. Do you disarm him?"


Imbroglio asked, "If you stop an off duty cop that is carrying, do you take away his gun for his safety also or is this just a civilian thing?"


Why hasn't anyone answered this yet?

I didn't realize you were an actuary.  You compile those statistics yourself?  Did it ever occur to you that traffic stops are proportionally more dangerous because cops do proportionally more of them than anything else they do?




What if it had been a speeding ticket? you think the NHP guy woulda just said "that's OK that you're carrying?"  That's just stupid. We both know he'd have done the same thing.



Boy, your proof is concrete...  I do see where you're coming from.[>:/]



I never disputed the fact that I was to blame for being pulled over. Like I said before, I knew what could happen while I was driving on expired tags.  What you're implying is that being frisked and having your weapon taken is justifiable if you commit any infraction, like say having a brake light out, or double parking or any damn other thing a cop decides he wants to look at you for. And a cop WILL find a reason if he wants to stop you.
I never had to tell those guys I was carrying... I did it because I respect what they do, and
1) to show that I was going to cooperate with them and

2) so when they ran my license they wouldn't get surprised by the fact that I had a CCW and could be possibly be carrying.

 You've been in california too long my friend, it's rotting yer brain!  

I have been a peace officer (I know better than to use LEO on the boards) for twenty years...."Why do you need a gun?"......what a dumbass question.  I'll tell ya, we have idiots working in my profession too, I know, I have one of them working for me and if one of you guys can find him a job I would be sincerely thankful to get rid of him.

Yeah what Hunduh said. After 21 and half years with a city police department i am only here to make 3 and half more and retire. While experience has taught me that you never want to have a state trooper or highway patrolman involved in anthing other than checking wrecks, writing citations, and booking drunks, there are always 2 sides to every story. State troopers in my state just don't investigate criminal activity which is why to them the worse thing you can do is go 10 mph over the speed limit. Hell I could care less how fast you go, too many other real crimes happening but then again I guess they do serve a purpose otherwise people would be driving like maniacs.

Personally I have seen a definite trend in de-policing with young officers after they realize that your damned if you do and damned if you don't. I have tried to teach many of them that you must try and treat people like you would want a member of your family treated however sometimes it's just not possible. Everything Hunduh says is true, we cannot keep anyone anymore and actually hire as he explained. Affirmative action has also been responsible for forcing us to hire unqualified people just to get the numbers right. And on the subject of de-policing the good ones quickly realize that you get in no trouble by being REactive and you will get into trouble being PROactive so which one do you think they choose. Well I will make it for sure to the end of my career because I know it is much easier to be REactive. And he is right, it's only going to get worse because nobody in their right mind wants the job anymore and I can't blame them.

Absolutely! I'am supposed to use "actual numbers nationwide" as opposed to personal experience, are you for real? You use "actual numbers nationwide" in your life and don't preach to me about it, it's my safety, not yours. BTW, where is this "actual numbers nationwide", from CNN? I posted regarding this very topic a few months ago and no one responded.




Just like you against LEO's, right?

If he/she announces they are armed, until positively identified, YES. Then again, I've never had an off duty officer point a gun in face.

For those of you that know me, you know I normally don't get hooked into these discussions because, as I have said before, it's like paddling up river, you never really get anywhere. Everybody has there own opinion and I don't think this discussion is going to change anyones opinion, which is fine with me. We all could go back and forth forever on this.

As for the original topic: As the story was explained, I definetly think the officer could have handled it better.

That being said, I'am not responding to this post anymore, so you can tell me to go f*ck myself[:D]

I am an ex-cop.  I got out of it after a few years because it was not to my liking.  Simply put, I enjoy dealing with friendly, intelligent people with common sence. I loathe interacting with the other 95% of the population.  In my brief career I never had a formal complaint lodged against me, nor was I ever disciplined beyond a few good ass chewings, which happens to everyone.  I used to think most cops were firm second amendment supporters, but I worked in a relatively small cummunity in a conservative state.  Now I don't believe that's true.  That disturbes me a great deal.  And as far as whether or not you should tell an officer that you a carrying, if you carrying LEGALLY and aren't required to do so by law, I say do not unless:

1) its blatently obvious, which it shouldn't be.

2) for some incredibly stupid reason you give the officer legal grounds to conduct a search or you give permission.  

In my opinion it adds unnecessary stress to the situation, making an already dangerous situation more dangerous. Besides, its my damn business if I want to carry a weapon.  As an officer I might have disagreed with that statement, but that is my attitude now.

If what you say is true and accurately described, I think you were treated poorly. If this happened to me I'd sure as hell complain.  Whether you do so or not is your choice. Most agencies of any size, particularily a state agency, will treat a formal complaint seriously.  If it is determined to have merit, it will likely have consequences for the officer.  Of course, you may have acted like an asshole and/or your complaint may be groundless.  

This is a great thread.Thanks to all the peace officers for their input.I will find out Sunday if I am required by law to announce I am carrying my 1911.We have a lot of peace officers in our gun club.
  All the officers I have met on the range are great guys.Two of them rank in the top 10 of Police shooters I think. I am very pro law enforcement but I think people should be treated with respect as I try to treat others.
  I have a very nice Colt 1911 from the custom shop that I would prefer nobody touch without my permission.(yes I would give it up if asked)
As for my back up and my back up for my back up I will wait till he asks.(hee, hee.)
 Please keep In mind I don't drink or drug but I do love guns.
 P.S. Palmer I love your sig. line But I can't remember who said that.  

In reverse order:



Let's see, so far it sounds like:
- have a gun, assume intent to harm a LEO
- disagree, assume anti-cop

Wrong.  But thanks for assuming that you had information on my own interactions with LEO's when I haven't previously made any such information known.  But I'll add my latest "cop story:"

Not too long ago I stood shoulder to shoulder with LEO's in a firearms-related class as we shouldered our arms to fire at the targets.



As far as I know, you're only "supposed" to follow the law.  The practice of assuming the intentions of the masses are based upon the actions of a few is your own decision.

Obviously one's personal experience is invaluable, and I didn't state that before.  However it's also important to realize that the people you come across on a daily basis are not indicative of the public at large and to shape your actions solely upon your limited experience is...well...limited.  

It's not black and white by far.  Obviously I use my own personal experience constantly as you no doubt use information that you've been taught (in a class or from somebody else), but have not personally experienced yet.  

I'm just saying that if you are about to interact with a person, and you have reason to believe [b]that[/b] person may act a certain way, then by all means, take the appropriate action.  But I disagree with the general concept of treating a person a specific way based upon somebody else's actions.

CNN?  Ted Turner?  Talking about responsible gun owners?

Gunbert-
   Sorry that happened to you the way it did. It wasn't right and you should complain. That's not how it would have happened around here...

One_Slayer-
     
    Grow up. I don't care if you are carrying 3 guns or 10, to hear you say that it "should be funny" if you are stopped, says volumes about your maturity.