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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:49:33 AM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 11:50:06 AM by bloodmoon]
I was talking with a SWAT officer who was at the college giving a presentation and he told the class that some meth dealers will protect their backwoods meth production areas with shotgun shells set in a sleeve with a nail on the bottom. So basically the police officers step on the shotgun shells and they blast into the foot taking the officer down and giving advance warning to the guys working the meth lab.

Anyone else ever heard of this if true I would hate to be a police officer raiding a backwoods meth lab.
(Reese)This is supposed to be the greatest Army in the world and you couldn’t even kill the three of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to tell you I am not impressed.(Reese)
HK_Shooter_03
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:50:54 AM
I have no experience with this but if you built it out of materials strong enough to contain the pressure of the shell, I don't see why it wouldn't work...
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:51:57 AM
heard of it but have never seen any actual reports of it

I would think you would need some momentum to set them off than merely stepping on it and pushing the primer against a "firing pin"
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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:52:33 AM

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I have no experience with this but if you built it out of materials strong enough to contain the pressure of the shell, I don't see why it wouldn't work...
Damn it would suck to lose your foot while trying to take down a meth lab. I didn't think that meth heads were all that smart.
(Reese)This is supposed to be the greatest Army in the world and you couldn’t even kill the three of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to tell you I am not impressed.(Reese)
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:52:42 AM
I'm not sure that a constant pressure such as a footstep would ignore the primer.

Doesn't it have to be more of an impact?

Hopefully somebody smarter then me will address this.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:53:25 AM
Sounds like the Vietcong are mixing meth. What's next, punji pits in the middle of a trailer park?
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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:53:46 AM

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
heard of it but have never seen any actual reports of it

I would think you would need some momentum to set them off than merely stepping on it and pushing the primer against a "firing pin"
Thats what I thought. Could stepping down on a shell in tube with a nail on the bottom be set off with normal foot pressure.
(Reese)This is supposed to be the greatest Army in the world and you couldn’t even kill the three of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to tell you I am not impressed.(Reese)
sprayandpray
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:55:40 AM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 11:57:33 AM by sprayandpray]
Not sure the force of a foot stepping on it would be enough to fire the primer.

Maybe if you could get some Olefson primers it would work.....

( See that, Take a few minutes to see if it is in the " Improvised Munitions Handbook" and 7 people rwly)
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:55:45 AM
I have heard of this as well. I read it from a book from a Marine in Viet Nam. He claimed they would try to get hold of shotgun shells from American bodies when possible for this purpose. A piece of bamboo approximately the same outder diameter as the hull with a nail in the bottom. The bamboo would not need to contain the explosion, but merely facilitate it. The point was for the concussion to damage the foot. I could swear he referred to them as "foot-breakers" or "ankle-breakers" or something like that.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:56:48 AM
I have seen several "booby traps" made from 12 ga. shells... the "step on it" type... no, you are not going to step on it and set it off.

All of the ones I have seen were set up inside pipe or tubing with a cap, the cap had a hole drilled through it to allow a nail or some type of firing pin that was attached to a spring to be able to drive through the hole and detonate the shell... they were all tripwire actuated and normally aimed toward the legs along trailsides.
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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:57:07 AM

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
I have heard of this as well. I read it from a book from a Marine in Viet Nam. He claimed they would try to get hold of shotgun shells from American bodies when possible for this purpose. A piece of bamboo approximately the same outder diameter as the hull with a nail in the bottom. The bamboo would not need to contain the explosion, but merely facilitate it. The point was for the concussion to damage the foot. I could swear he referred to them as "foot-breakers" or "ankle-breakers" or something like that.
Wow so its true. I have never heard about this before today.
(Reese)This is supposed to be the greatest Army in the world and you couldn’t even kill the three of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to tell you I am not impressed.(Reese)
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:58:43 AM
I have seen 12 gauge traps sold before. They are spring loaded though and would require a trip wire.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:58:56 AM
There are various "noise-makers" that take a 12ga primed shell. Of course, "not to be used with live ammo".

Basically a trip-wire type device.

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Posted: 7/18/2008 11:59:34 AM

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
I have seen several "booby traps" made from 12 ga. shells... the "step on it" type... no, you are not going to step on it and set it off.

All of the ones I have seen were set up inside pipe or tubing with a cap, the cap had a hole drilled through it to allow a nail or some type of firing pin that was attached to a spring to be able to drive through the hole and detonate the shell... they were all tripwire actuated and normally aimed toward the legs along trailsides.


Damn dope growers.
Oh, for the love of God! What’s this, some pansy, "get in touch with my feelings because my mommy didn’t love me" group?
bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:01:57 PM

Originally Posted By Granola:
I have seen 12 gauge traps sold before. They are spring loaded though and would require a trip wire.
Wow they are not illegal you can actually buy something like that. Is it for pest removal seems like a good way to get rid of wild boar who is damaging farmland.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:02:17 PM
They sharpen the nail and it works with foot pressure
They also just use a film container
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:04:48 PM

Originally Posted By BenDover:

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
I have seen several "booby traps" made from 12 ga. shells... the "step on it" type... no, you are not going to step on it and set it off.

All of the ones I have seen were set up inside pipe or tubing with a cap, the cap had a hole drilled through it to allow a nail or some type of firing pin that was attached to a spring to be able to drive through the hole and detonate the shell... they were all tripwire actuated and normally aimed toward the legs along trailsides.


Damn dope growers.


Moonshiners too
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:05:20 PM

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By Granola:
I have seen 12 gauge traps sold before. They are spring loaded though and would require a trip wire.
Wow they are not illegal you can actually buy something like that. Is it for pest removal seems like a good way to get rid of wild boar who is damaging farmland.


Refer to the noisemaker reference above. Would probably require modification for live ammo, and at such point in time would become huge liability issue and likely illegal.
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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:06:05 PM

Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By Granola:
I have seen 12 gauge traps sold before. They are spring loaded though and would require a trip wire.
Wow they are not illegal you can actually buy something like that. Is it for pest removal seems like a good way to get rid of wild boar who is damaging farmland.


Refer to the noisemaker reference above. Would probably require modification for live ammo, and at such point in time would become huge liability issue and likely illegal.
ok now I understand
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:10:27 PM
It's called a 'Toe-Popper'.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:10:56 PM

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
I have seen several "booby traps" made from 12 ga. shells... the "step on it" type... no, you are not going to step on it and set it off.

All of the ones I have seen were set up inside pipe or tubing with a cap, the cap had a hole drilled through it to allow a nail or some type of firing pin that was attached to a spring to be able to drive through the hole and detonate the shell... they were all tripwire actuated and normally aimed toward the legs along trailsides.


I have seen this type.

The OPs original design I have to call BS on. Whats to stop the person that is stepping on it, knocking the shotgun shell over on its side and rendering it nonfunctional? A 12 gauge shotgun shell is 2 3/4" long and about an inch in dia. You're going to set this in a 1" piece of pipe, with a base that will contain a nail, and then put it on a "trail". I am going to come along and step up on the shotgun shell and push down to set it off. I just don't buy it. There are better ways.

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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:17:20 PM
A trap like this can easily be made using a rat trap as the striker.
I found one about 10 years ago in the National Forest while turkey hunting.
It had a trip wire, but the whole mess had been there so long there was rust all over everything, and even the wood of the rat trap had started to decay.

Luckily i was looking for some turkey sign on the ground and saw the damn thing.

It takes a decent impact to set off a primer, that is why we can press them in and out of primer pockets and they do not go off, and if a hammer strike is weak you get a misfire.


bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:18:54 PM

Originally Posted By 338winmag:

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
I have seen several "booby traps" made from 12 ga. shells... the "step on it" type... no, you are not going to step on it and set it off.

All of the ones I have seen were set up inside pipe or tubing with a cap, the cap had a hole drilled through it to allow a nail or some type of firing pin that was attached to a spring to be able to drive through the hole and detonate the shell... they were all tripwire actuated and normally aimed toward the legs along trailsides.


I have seen this type.

The OPs original design I have to call BS on. Whats to stop the person that is stepping on it, knocking the shotgun shell over on its side and rendering it nonfunctional? A 12 gauge shotgun shell is 2 3/4" long and about an inch in dia. You're going to set this in a 1" piece of pipe, with a base that will contain a nail, and then put it on a "trail". I am going to come along and step up on the shotgun shell and push down to set it off. I just don't buy it. There are better ways.
The officier basically said they are set in the ground by the hundreds. Thats the impression he gave. Not my design I just heard about it today while attending a organized crime class.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:23:29 PM
It's actually in the US military improvised munitions hand book, it is quick and easy AP mine.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:27:59 PM
http://www.defensedevices.com/shotgun-alarm-signal1.html

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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:29:24 PM

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I have no experience with this but if you built it out of materials strong enough to contain the pressure of the shell, I don't see why it wouldn't work...
Damn it would suck to lose your foot while trying to take down a meth lab. I didn't think that meth heads were all that smart.




most of them are up for days on end, with nothing to do but make meth, and ways to protect thier meth.


btw, some of the things they do to make meth is pretty ingeinius. One method requires hooking a metal frying pan to a car battery. You hook the positive to one side and the negative to the other. You pour the mixture of crap into the frying pan and it causes it to bind.


I took a class last year about meth production. It was through my fire department. It was for evidence recognition and salvage. Since we get called out to "house explosions" that turn out to be meth labs fires.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:32:08 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 12:32:59 PM by fastmover]
so you blow a cops foot off while they are raiding your meth lab/trailer...what is your plan now???

I bet it wont end well for the tweaker.





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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 12:36:05 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 12:37:52 PM by bloodmoon]

Originally Posted By fastmover:
so you blow a cops foot off while they are raiding your meth lab/trailer...what is your plan now???

I bet it wont end well for the tweaker.





i own the deuce...
Still sucks that a cop might lose his foot trying to take out a worthless methhead. They shoudl just arm up Police helicoptors with Hell Fire missles and blow the meth lab in place with all the rats in it.

Meth is one drug that should always be illegal. Meth heads are not just thieves they are usually crazy. Some of the stroies about meth heads killing their children out of craziness are just fucking horrible.
(Reese)This is supposed to be the greatest Army in the world and you couldn’t even kill the three of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to tell you I am not impressed.(Reese)
338winmag
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:15:53 PM

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By fastmover:
so you blow a cops foot off while they are raiding your meth lab/trailer...what is your plan now???

I bet it wont end well for the tweaker.





i own the deuce...
Still sucks that a cop might lose his foot trying to take out a worthless methhead. They shoudl just arm up Police helicoptors with Hell Fire missles and blow the meth lab in place with all the rats in it.

Meth is one drug that should always be illegal. Meth heads are not just thieves they are usually crazy. Some of the stroies about meth heads killing their children out of craziness are just fucking horrible.



What happens when the no-knock with hellfires is at the wrong address, like the ones reported in here about once a week?

IBTBL

عرقي , عنصريI say if you dont have the guts to stand and fight them in court your not very likely to have the guts to stand and fight them in combat.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:17:28 PM
would require a few inches past the front of the shell to allow the pressure to build behind the wad to really "fire" the shell.

But even without that, stepping on one would certainly not feel good.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:17:30 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 4:21:06 PM by Mxpatriot51]
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:17:39 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 4:18:28 PM by Grug]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
It's called a 'Toe-Popper'.


wasnt a Toe Popper a popular Warsaw pact mini mine? which would take off a few toes or just damage the foot, making it necessary for others to help the disabled person.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:18:39 PM

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:
I'm not sure that a constant pressure such as a footstep would ignore the primer.

Doesn't it have to be more of an impact?

Hopefully somebody smarter then me will address this.


Doesn't have to be a sudden impact as much as a sharp, pin point impact (i.e. like a firing pin or a nail). That's why reloading presses don't set them off.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:18:50 PM
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.
Peak oil happened shortly after Drake sunk his first well in Titusville PA...in 1858.
Hubbert was a Luddite geologist...or he had no concept of Moore's Law and how it applies to exploration and production.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:21:58 PM

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.


But the question is how nil.

Enough to penetrate a shoe at point blank is "nil" compared to being fired from a shotgun, but penetrating a shoe is all they really need.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:23:28 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 4:26:11 PM by Unique1]

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
I have seen several "booby traps" made from 12 ga. shells... the "step on it" type... no, you are not going to step on it and set it off.

All of the ones I have seen were set up inside pipe or tubing with a cap, the cap had a hole drilled through it to allow a nail or some type of firing pin that was attached to a spring to be able to drive through the hole and detonate the shell... they were all tripwire actuated and normally aimed toward the legs along trailsides.


I see them at military gun shows in Wisconsin. Even comes with nylon trip wire and zip ties to secure. Neat little setup, but extremely nasty!

They are designed to put a 12ga. blank inside. To string acrossed a trail that deer take TO YOUR GARDEN. At least that's what the sticker on the item says.

It also says not to use a real shell as it is illegal and will more than likely destroy the device and cause personal injury (duh!).
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:24:15 PM

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.


But the question is how nil.

Enough to penetrate a shoe at point blank is "nil" compared to being fired from a shotgun, but penetrating a shoe is all they really need.


like a cook off probably where the pellets just split open the casing like a burst.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:25:06 PM

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.


But the question is how nil.

Enough to penetrate a shoe at point blank is "nil" compared to being fired from a shotgun, but penetrating a shoe is all they really need.


Back in my misspent youth, I taped a 12 gauge shell to the muzzle of my air rifle. It made noise, the pellets traveled about 20 feet up, then fell like a gentle rain.
Peak oil happened shortly after Drake sunk his first well in Titusville PA...in 1858.
Hubbert was a Luddite geologist...or he had no concept of Moore's Law and how it applies to exploration and production.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:25:47 PM

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I have no experience with this but if you built it out of materials strong enough to contain the pressure of the shell, I don't see why it wouldn't work...
Damn it would suck to lose your foot while trying to take down a meth lab. I didn't think that meth heads were all that smart.


i think it's more that they're super obsessive, rather than smart.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:29:10 PM

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.



But the point is not to spray pellets everywhere. The purpose is to have a large enough concussion to cause damage to the foot. I don't think that would be a problem with the powder charge of a shotgun shell and the brass encompassing the charge as potential shrapnel. With the foot within inches of the charge, I believe it would easily do a fair amount of damage.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:30:52 PM

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.



But the point is not to spray pellets everywhere. The purpose is to have a large enough concussion to cause damage to the foot. I don't think that would be a problem with the powder charge of a shotgun shell and the brass encompassing the charge as potential shrapnel. With the foot within inches of the charge, I believe it would easily do a fair amount of damage.


with somebody wearing a steel shanked boot..I sort of doubt a shotgun shell not confined in a metal barrel would do much.. to much room for the force to not be contained.
Posted by Stealthyblagga:

Liberalism is the triumph of emotion over intellect, but masquerading as the reverse.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:33:37 PM

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.



But the point is not to spray pellets everywhere. The purpose is to have a large enough concussion to cause damage to the foot. I don't think that would be a problem with the powder charge of a shotgun shell and the brass encompassing the charge as potential shrapnel. With the foot within inches of the charge, I believe it would easily do a fair amount of damage.


Concussion? Might damage the hearing but it isn't going to much damage.

Like I posted above, I have done it with shells taped to the muzzle of my air rifle. Yes, it is loud. But it isn't effective.
Peak oil happened shortly after Drake sunk his first well in Titusville PA...in 1858.
Hubbert was a Luddite geologist...or he had no concept of Moore's Law and how it applies to exploration and production.
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:34:21 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 4:34:30 PM by Mxpatriot51]

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.


But the question is how nil.

Enough to penetrate a shoe at point blank is "nil" compared to being fired from a shotgun, but penetrating a shoe is all they really need.


Back in my misspent youth, I taped a 12 gauge shell to the muzzle of my air rifle. It made noise, the pellets traveled about 20 feet up, then fell like a gentle rain.




You were a dumb kid, huh?
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:36:45 PM
The devices as posted would have a 99.9% failure rate and the casualty rate for the .1% would be close to zero.........



However it should be noted that there are two breeds of crank bakers:

1. The users who end up burning thmselves and often their kids and innocents who go through a lot of trouble to produce powdered sudafed with some other nasty chemicals. these people are dangerous by accident or direct violence due to being fucked in the head, these turds are the biggest threat to the outdoorsman /LE but luck for us they end up killing or stupidfying themselves and turn into drooling zombies quickly

2. The Mex/Rus/East Bloc/Far East crew, These people are very very dangerous they run this as a business DO NOT "get high off their own supply" and are often trained by their host countries military and often times were in fact counter drug units that decided when given the choice Plata O Plomo they opted for Plata. These people are extremely dangerous however to the avg woodsman /patrolman they go to great pains to avoid detection/ gunbatltles.... In the CONUS you would be very unlikely to encounter such a group taking offensive area denial operations as this is bad for the bottom line. But in border areas and overseas you do not want to come across these guys w/o a fireteam or two and air support


Sorry for the minor hijack
AeroE
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:37:03 PM
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 4:40:43 PM by AeroE]

Originally Posted By fish223:
http://www.defensedevices.com/shotgun-alarm-signal1.html

us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/urdefense_2007_21419950



That's a good way to have Bubba for a roomie for 10 or 20 years.

So are the mines.


A concussion is required to set the shotgun shell off. How about this - rig a test and try it at home. Stack a pile of weights on a pointy object resting against a shotgun shell primer until there's a hundred pounds or thereabouts. Then, take the same rig and drop a brick from a foot or 18 inches. If you gut the contents first, the setup is simpler and you won't need to worry about blowing up the cat. Blowing up kitty is considered bad form.


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bloodmoon
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:37:52 PM

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.



But the point is not to spray pellets everywhere. The purpose is to have a large enough concussion to cause damage to the foot. I don't think that would be a problem with the powder charge of a shotgun shell and the brass encompassing the charge as potential shrapnel. With the foot within inches of the charge, I believe it would easily do a fair amount of damage.


Concussion? Might damage the hearing but it isn't going to much damage.

Like I posted above, I have done it with shells taped to the muzzle of my air rifle. Yes, it is loud. But it isn't effective.
I believe the shell is suspended in a pipe sort of like the pipe you can get from stripping it from abandoned houses or from places like home depot. The pipe has a nail fixed to the bottom of the pipe. The shell is not just laid on a nail it is in a tube of some sort that is the impression the officer gave. The shell is suspended in a tube I am assuming metal or something similar he didn't go into details about the materials used.
(Reese)This is supposed to be the greatest Army in the world and you couldn’t even kill the three of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got to tell you I am not impressed.(Reese)
Keith_J
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:38:21 PM

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.


But the question is how nil.

Enough to penetrate a shoe at point blank is "nil" compared to being fired from a shotgun, but penetrating a shoe is all they really need.


Back in my misspent youth, I taped a 12 gauge shell to the muzzle of my air rifle. It made noise, the pellets traveled about 20 feet up, then fell like a gentle rain.




You were a dumb kid, huh?


Why do you say that? Just because I started early as a gun nut? And I liked to make things go BOOM?

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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:40:59 PM
The threat is overstated, or else we would have members here who could report finding dozens of minefields with devices numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands.

For it to be effective, it would need the shell to be encased within a pipe, and a trigger device with a spring to drive the nail/striker against the primer.

The mousetrap version makes a simple tripwire noisemaker, but wouldn't actually maim anyone, unless the shell was in a barrel of some sort.

Until we get reports in from some fellow arfcommers in the field, It's safe to assume that the threat as described at the collage presentation is nothing more then jenkem.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither...
AeroE
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:41:44 PM

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Without a barrel, the velocity would be nil.


But the question is how nil.

Enough to penetrate a shoe at point blank is "nil" compared to being fired from a shotgun, but penetrating a shoe is all they really need.


Back in my misspent youth, I taped a 12 gauge shell to the muzzle of my air rifle. It made noise, the pellets traveled about 20 feet up, then fell like a gentle rain.




You were a dumb kid, huh?


That's an inqusitive kid. That needed more supervision sometimes.
Do not hire anyone posting in this thread that believes the airplane will not fly
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NotDeaf
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:44:52 PM
** MODS - remove this link if this needed**


Originally Posted By fish223:
http://www.defensedevices.com/shotgun-alarm-signal1.html

us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/urdefense_2007_21419950


Since Fish post a picture... I guess okay to post this?

I think you guys are looking at this?

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navvet89
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Posted: 7/18/2008 4:45:54 PM

Originally Posted By Grug:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
It's called a 'Toe-Popper'.


wasnt a Toe Popper a popular Warsaw pact mini mine? which would take off a few toes or just damage the foot, making it necessary for others to help the disabled person.


Americans used them in Vietnam as well, see google for the "M14 mine".
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