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Posted: 11/26/2001 8:40:50 PM EDT
I was under the impression that the job of securing airbases was the job of the Rangers. The Marines took the airbase in Afghanistan. I know the SEALs were beat up in Panama.
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 8:42:25 PM EDT
SEMPER FI!
Link Posted: 11/26/2001 9:16:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARDOC: I was under the impression that the job of securing airbases was the job of the Rangers
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Marines secured the airport in Mogandishu.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 12:16:34 AM EDT
well the rangers do claim that airports are their thing but a Marine Expeditionary Unit goes through a 6 month SOCEX workup prior to deployment. this is to earn Special Ops Capable certification in a variety of missions. not every MEU earns the SOC qualification before they deploy. we can take down airports, towns, small countries, rescue pilots, recover planes, kick down doors, and CQB with the best of 'em. its a rough 6 months.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 12:18:26 AM EDT
ALSO, the MEU(SOC) provides theatre commanders with special operations forces that are outside the control of USSOCOM. this can be an important detail in accomplishing the mission expeditiously
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 1:36:34 AM EDT
Devil Dog all MEUs now go out SOC qualified, I think the last that went out as just a MEU was anout 6 years ago
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 2:03:35 AM EDT
Don't forget that the O'Grady rescue (an Air Force pilot) was conducted by a Marine training helicopter squadron (CH-53E) which is armed only by 2 50cal's when the Air Force could have used heavily armed PAVELOW's with an array of electronic countermeasures. ANY CLIMB AND PLACE!!! Semper Fi!
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 2:29:00 AM EDT
Air, Land and Sea. When they figure out or need us in space we will own that to!!!
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 2:44:35 AM EDT
Benny The TRAP that recovered O'Graddy had Cobra's as the fire support for the lift ships. The Marines on the ground were the 81mm Mortar Plt from either 1/8 or 2/8.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:17:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By full-clip: Air, Land and Sea. When they figure out or need us in space we will own that to!!!
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Been there, owned that: Col. John Glenn, USMC (Ret.) first man to orbit the Earth, in the Friendship 7.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:22:20 AM EDT
Rangers never bring enough stuff. Marines show up with Arty, Armor, Helos, Jets, and support. Also, floating nearby are a couple of Maritime Prepositioned Force Ships. These contain (if my memory serves me right) ammo, food, weapons, and vehicles, for the MEU to fight for 30 days of continuous combat.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:11:53 AM EDT
Maj When the MPS deploys they bring in enough combat supplies for a MEB for 30 days. The MEU brings with it 15 days combat supplies in the LFORM
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:18:59 AM EDT
With Bush Talking about IRAQ yesterday, I would say the Rangers will get some too. Benjamin
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:20:56 AM EDT
It's primarily using the right force for the job. A staple Marine Corps mission is to sieze forward sites for further air and land operations. Guadacanal, Iwo Jima, etc. were seized for just these purposes. The Marines are a heavier force than the quickly deployable Army units, and bring with them that capability. They are also there in the Theater on those Navy boats. Army troops would have to deploy from the US, Europe, or the Middle East (which is highly unlikely). It's a matter of being there firstist with the mostist. Airfiled siezure is also a staple Ranger mission, but in a different context. "Forced Entry" airfiled siezure (like Grenada) is a Ranger mission to create an "airhead" that follow-on troops can use to exploit. Rangers sieze an airfiled, then follow-on troops exploit that. The night jump and siezure of the arifiled earlier in the war is an example of this, minus the exploitation phase. It's all a matter of using the right tool for the right job. So far, this administration has used the right tools for the jobs at hand. They've been doing it textbook. The secondary reason is because you have to bring those damned Marines to every war, or it just wouldn't be one worth fighting. Politically, it would be difficult to exclude the USMC from taking some part in it. Also, if the Marines were sidelined, then many in Congress would start to wonder just why we need a Marine Corps? If it appeared that the USMC couldn't operate in a landlocked country, without that link to the sea (which they certainly can), then the justification for such a large Marine Corps as we have now would be in question by some That's not a battle that should be fought. Even though I'm Army through and through (and the Army made more amphib landings than the USMC in WWII, including the largest=D-Day[:P]) No one in their right mind that knows anything about military operations would wish for a less capable USMC. All kidding aside, the USMC has it's place, and this happens to be one of them. Ross
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 7:57:07 AM EDT
Each MEU must be able to do 22 standard missions during its work ups prior to go out on float -Amphibious Assault -Amphibious Raid -Limited Objective Attack-Deception Raid [b]-Airfield/Port Seizure[/b] -Noncombatant Evacuation Operations -Security Operations -Military Operations in Urban Terrain -Seizure and Destruction of Offshore Oil Platforms -Maritime Inspection-Maritime Assault -Reinforcement Operations -Show of Force Operations -Humanitarian Relief Operations -Civil Action Operations -Fire Support Control -Initial Terminal Guidance -Tactical Recovery of Aircraft, Equipment and Personnel (TRAP) -Clandestine Recovery Operations -Mobile Training Teams -Special Demolition Operations -Clandestine Reconnaissance and Surveillance Counterintelligence -Signal Intelligence Electronic Warfare - In-extremis Hostage Rescue--> this one now is handed off to the Tier 1 units like DevGroup and CAG.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:12:12 AM EDT
Is it my impression or is the Marine Corps always the last bunch to get their equipment upgraded? I was reading the papers about them still using the Cobras and Hueys. Also during Desert Storm, I think that they were still using the M60 tank. Nothing angainst this as I love the Huey and M60.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:23:09 AM EDT
Hey Kin, the other branches get all the money, as such the Corps has to do more with less. That's how it always has been, and that's part of the Corps' appeal (doing more with less).
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:23:25 AM EDT
Kin yes and no, The Marine Corps had a lot of old "hand me down" equipment on th ebig ticket items. Most of our big gear is older than the armies gear, but it is not so much a matter of the gear not being capable, but the other services are much more willing to replace serviceable gear (spend money) than the Marines. On individual equipment we tend to be ahead of the army as a whole, although some select units will get new individual gear first. If you look at what a current active duty Marine, it not as good as the special ops, on bar with 18th ABC and much better than the heavy units.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:29:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kin: Is it my impression or is the Marine Corps always the last bunch to get their equipment upgraded? I was reading the papers about them still using the Cobras and Hueys. Also during Desert Storm, I think that they were still using the M60 tank. Nothing angainst this as I love the Huey and M60.
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No, they just spend their dollars far wiser than the other services. Quite frankly, they're far better at it than the other services because they have a smaller force, smaller budget, and more specialized requirements. On things they really need, they spend it and get it right the first time. Purchasing and operating the AV-8 wasn't cheap, but it was what they had to do. Stealing the excess tank M240s from the Army and turning them into ground MGs was some seriously "creative" financing (and beyond a doubt one of the greatest schemes ever!) Basically they buy right the first time, and they get very creative with the money they do have. They are better at setting priorities than the other services, which are slightly more enslaved to the military-industrial complex. They buy their share of dumb things, but since they are a smaller service, it works out to be fewer things. Ross
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:43:15 AM EDT
Thanks for the explanation guys!
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:47:14 AM EDT
benny, the 53's were NOT from a training squadron. Training squadrons do not deploy for any extended periods(ie over 6 weeks) STLRN, it was NOT the mortar plt that did the TRAP mission. It was the Line Company. And they also had Harrier air support, along with the gunships. How do I know? That was my first boat det. I was with VMA-231, who made up the fixed wing part of the ACE for the 24th MEU. We were attached to HMM 263, which was comprimised of Hueys and Cobras from an HMLA, CH-53's from an HMH, and CH-46's from the command HMM. The MEU CO and SGT MAJ also accompanied the TRAP, and got in deep shit, due to the possibility of the loss of the Command Element if the helo's were destroyed or shot down. Also of note on that deployment, a Marine killed another Marine in the Lower Vehicle storage area, due to an arguement over an MRE on the last dirt det prior to the murder. The kid who was killed went to my old high school (after I graduated), but I knew his recruiter. That's the only time I've heard an enlisted guy get rung off the boat (the Captain and XO get rung off every time they depart the ship). [smoke]
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:57:53 AM EDT
Regardless of who is in there. I just hope our casualties are at a minimum and that they come home safe.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 9:08:07 AM EDT
Tim My 1stSgt was the company gunny for the Wpns company on that float, and he claims that the Marines were from his 81s Plt.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 9:18:30 AM EDT
Anyone know which BLT is making up the 15th MEU? I believe it's either 1st Marines or 9th Marines, but I'm not sure. thanks, Dan
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 9:23:13 AM EDT
It's the 26th MEU, from Camp LeJune, New River Air Station, and Cherry Point. [smoke]
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 9:46:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 10:03:23 AM EDT
Back to the topic. I think the USMC was given this job because of politics. Their leadership bitched and moaned about being left out of the party. Career officers need to be in on this type of stuff to get their tickets punched. Their are no advanced naval bases in Afghanistan as far as I know. The Army/Air Force/Navy can handle the job just fine. No need for Marines in this one but they will once again be misused out of politics. It makes about as much sense as sending Marines to fight in Europe during WWI. Marines by definition are not meant to fight extended ground campaigns but they have many times. Go ahead and flame this ex-jar head for telling it like it is.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 11:56:29 AM EDT
Ross This damned Marine thinks your full of shit.... "(and the Army made more amphib landings than the USMC in WWII, including the largest=D-Day" I don't think this is true ..but if so ....they must not have done a good job?. becouse you don't here much about it ..ask anyone about IwoJima , Okinawa ,Taraawa just too list a few ....When the Marine land ,it's somthing that they make movie's about.... As for equipment,...all a well tained Marine needs is his bothers..My rifle is human,even as I,becouse it is my life Thus I will learn it as aBROTHER...and a well sharped E-tool will work just fine a marine has somthing that the other branchs dont Parris island and san-d-somthing (inside joke for you hollywood Marines) this is a place that they weed out the army dogs and lesser folks that try too be Marines..this somthing that you can't understand inless you are a Marine.......... semper-fi 3rd gen. Marine...and damn proud of it
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 1:52:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: Maj When the MPS deploys they bring in enough combat supplies for a MEB for 30 days. The MEU brings with it 15 days combat supplies in the LFORM
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Thanks, STLRN. I forgot the numbers, mixed them up because I was with 1st MEB.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 1:57:32 PM EDT
Maj Not a problem I taught that for 3 years to the army Dan There is no longer a 9th Marine they went away in the early 90's. The BLT is 1/1 Tim I talked to my 1stSgt. I stand corrected, it was Mortar Plt 3/8 not 1/8 or 2/8. in the GCE the mortar plt is normally the trap platoon. Sukebe Although advanced naval bases is still part of our mission statement, the other parts are "do those duties as directed by the president" and "carryout the land operations in prosecution of the naval campaign." The Corps has fought numerous battles in numerous war that were well inland and in those cases acted in or traditional role as "shock" troops. The Marines were deployed to Afghanistan because of the Marines are by nature a expeditionary warfare organization. It is the old "firstus with the motus" argument. We are already forward deployed with a combine arms team that can accomplish the mission. Unlike the army we don't have to rely on the Air Force to get there and provide us with our war supplies, we bring all that with us. Bone Yes the army actually has done more landings than the Marine Corps they did all the ones in Europe/Africa and about half in the pacific.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 2:10:10 PM EDT
STLRN, thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 2:15:23 PM EDT
I was attached to 9th Marines when we deployed from the MEB in '93. We participated in the "de-activation" ceremony for 9th Mar, in Camp Hansen. A then Colonel Bice commanded.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 5:39:00 PM EDT
The O'Grady trap mission took place during the summer of '95 by the 24th MEU(SOC)which consisted of HMM-263, BLT 3/8, and Kilo Bat. 3/10. The trigger pullers on the TRAP team were from WPNS Co., 81mm mortor Plt(m16's, M203, and saws for weapons, no mortars). There were also people from other units involved, such as Marines trained in "pole climbing", EOD, Intel etc. They even brought along the MEU SGTMAJ, and CO; for which they were heavily critcized back in the states. They used two CH-53 E's for insertion/extraction, which were accompanied by cobras, and harriers from the MEU. There was also and absurd amount of support aircraft from the Air Force involved; fighters, AWACS, and what ever else they have. Why did the Marines get selected for this and not SF or PJ's? Probably because the ground was "hot" those units are very small in size. If they ran into trouble they would have to call the Marines for support. Which is the smarter move, support for a unit that has worked together and knows its SOP, or two units that never worked together? Not a hard choice in my opinion, of course you that think the "elites" are super men and can do no wrong would probally go with the first option(go back and watch TV). Anyone remember desert one. Marines are also arguably the most heavily armed unit man for man in the world, and the most proficant in the weapons it uses. Is it the gear that makes a soldier/Marine, or is it the soldier/Marine that makes the gear. I would take a PLT of 1980's equiped Marines against a PLT of 2001 equiped soldiers any day. .02 cheers, rugger
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 8:04:12 PM EDT
Given that there were a bunch of SF forces around anyway, and the entry was not opposed, I suspect the airfield was reconned by some SF guys with a radio who then told the landing force what to expect. Good luck to the Marines.
Link Posted: 11/27/2001 11:34:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2001 11:38:30 PM EDT by rugger]
Originally Posted By mcgredo: Given that there were a bunch of SF forces around anyway,
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Just because the were around doesn't mean that they had recently trained for a TRAP. SF need practice just like any other unit to stay proficant. Are you familiar with SF's main missions and normal operating size. I'll fill you in it does not include large numbers and lots of firepower.
and the entry was not opposed,
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If you say so.
I suspect the airfield was reconned by some SF guys with a radio who then told the landing force what to expect.
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If this was the case dont you think they would have secured O'Grady and extracted with him when the trap team arrived? O'Grady was E&E'ing from the time he landed. No offense but movies make things look easier than they are. SF operators are not supermen, nor are SEALS, PJ's, RECON, and the will be the first to admit it, they just know thier limits better than most. RUGGER out. edited for spelling.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:25:08 AM EDT
Timh70- I stand corrected! who was the HMH? 465? I was with 466. I went out in 96 with 234 (Black Sheep Sqdn). If I signed the re-enlistment papers in Feb. I'd probably be with the 15th MEU right now! Oh well, bottom line....we do alot of $#it, and we do it well! Semper Fi dude! benny6
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 1:42:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: Tim My 1stSgt was the company gunny for the Wpns company on that float, and he claims that the Marines were from his 81s Plt.
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Quimbly?
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 4:22:26 PM EDT
STIRN You say your 1stsgt was the Company gunny for Wpns Co. How could that be? The senior 0369 in Wpns co is a MSgt billet E-8, and he’s called the Operations Chief, not Company Gunny. MEU’s don’t leave under T/O especially when it comes to Officers and SNCO’s. Maybe your 1StSgt was the 81’s Plt Sgt that is a GySgt billet. I see you’re in NC. Are you an 08XX? Are you with 10th Marines? I am with 3/2.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:29:43 PM EDT
I think your right and I phrased that wrong, he was a Gunny with heavy guns, I had to look at your (infantry) TO/E since my Lts days I was never a LNO, and only worked with a line company a few times in Oki (it was actually L 3/2 on UDP) all the rest of my FO times I worked with tanks and LAR. Yes I am over at 10th Marines right now.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:37:55 PM EDT
STLRN and treefrog88, how are the ranges at LeJune? We can't shoot at the range here off duty (Cherry Point sucks!!), due to the proximity of the runways, and the weekend cross country flights that come and go. You guys ever go shoot at Flatwoods? [smoke]
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 5:51:26 PM EDT
The on base range are typical one base ranges, F3 is open on the weekends and it all alright for the $3 range fee, since they provide all the bulls' eye targets you want, there are two sides a 25 m side, and that is all that is shot on that side. The other side depends on how many people are there. If your the only one or the other agree as long as you don't flag people on the line or in the range shack you can do what you want. The Skeet range is pretty good my Lt's go and shoot there all the time. Not sure if we can use Stone Bay anymore, my last tour here you could shoot there on the weekends, but I don't know now. Flatwoods is alright, I haven't shot there in several months, the biggest problem was weekends when they did IPSC type events and no one else could shoot till around noon. Sportsmen's Lodge out on 24 is alright also, I have been tending to go shoot there when I am not shooting on F3. One great thing I have found out the MCX here will do a FFL transfer, the lady I talked to about it said if the weapon was paid for by you already it was no cost.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 6:06:36 PM EDT
Isn't there a range over there on Camp Johnson? There used to be a Rod & Gun Club, too. At least there was in '91.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 6:21:33 PM EDT
STLRN, You don't need a slip from the CO to do a purchase at the annex down there??? I thought you had to. The PX here at CP SUCKS!! They don't carry ANY ammo, and they won't even THINK about selling guns, even if it is an order that you will pick up on arrival. The annex has a good selection of rifles and handguns, but I was always worried about the CO thing. I got all of my permits at the gun shows in New Bern, the only timethey will issur permits to military without all the CO paperwork. Hey, maybe we could get together for a shoot. I had 2 AF guys come down from SJ to shoot about 2 months ago. [smoke]
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 6:33:31 PM EDT
Sorry to break the bad news to you guys but that airfield is the same the RANGERS TOOK a month ago !!! There was noone there when the marines arrived all the BG's were already killed by the RANGERS ! I have the utmost respect for the traditions , history and courage of the Marines but their day is past for first in missions . The SOCOM forces of which the Marines are not a part of lead the way and are the truely Americas 911 force.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 6:37:38 PM EDT
On Long arms there is no requirement for a permit, handguns than you have to deal with the silly NC law, I have signed off on a few of the permit letters, but last time I went down to get one I just showed my ID carded and told them I was a CO, don't know if I was actually required to get a letter done on myself, or could I sign one authorizing myself to do it. Maj Not sure about a range at Camp Johnson, never go over there much and since they closed MT school, I think only admin school goes there now. The Rod and Gun Club is still there in Paradise Point on Seth Williams Blvd, with a view of the river.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 6:54:38 PM EDT
Colt That is true they did attack the same air field, at that time they ran into about the same level of resistance though and as with all raids withdrew. Unfortunately for your theory though the ranger contingent in the area really has minimal ability to hold terrain. You might want to actually look at what the Marine Corps has done in the recent past. The Marines have been used on average once every 10 weeks since the end of WWII on real world missions. Since the end of the cold war, it has gone up to once every 6 weeks, many. many times more than any Ranger Batt, probably on par with the SEALs, less than the SF and who nows about CAG. SOCOM and it various units are very good at what they do, but they are a tool in a box. Just like Marines and for that matter the Regular Army and AF. Sometimes you need a stiletto, sometimes an axe and sometimes a sledge hammer
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 6:54:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColtM4: Sorry to break the bad news to you guys but that airfield is the same the RANGERS TOOK a month ago !!! There was noone there when the marines arrived all the BG's were already killed by the RANGERS ! I have the utmost respect for the traditions , history and courage of the Marines but their day is past for first in missions . The SOCOM forces of which the Marines are not a part of lead the way and are the truely Americas 911 force.
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You're kind of foolish. "All the bad guys were killed"? This isn't Rainbow Six, junior. Do you think that the 300 or so, "SOCOM" guys that are on the ground could actually defend against, or assualt an enemy force that was larger than Bn sized? No way. Do a little research about the Gulf War. The Army was on the ground first, but they were just bodies. When the Corps arrived a few days later, they came, fully equipped, ready to fight. When the ground war started, the Marines assaulted the Iraqi's front. They fought through them and seized Kuwait. Read up on Task Force Ripper. Silly wannabe.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 7:16:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 7:10:07 PM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By bone: Ross This damned Marine thinks your full of shit.... "(and the Army made more amphib landings than the USMC in WWII, including the largest=D-Day" I don't think this is true ..but if so ....they must not have done a good job?.
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How the F-ck did we get into North Africa, Italy and Europe you nit wit? Think about it. How did MacArthur command U.S. forces in the SW Pacific without putting Army and Marines on islands.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 7:23:15 PM EDT
Here we go again with the tough talk from behind a keyboard. Listen guy I have no idea why you would insult me since a/ I dont know you B/ I was'nt talking to you or about you I was simply posting some facts about the current situation and deployment of our forces. You are talking about Kuwait ? Thats not the subject matter and it was 10 years ago. And I am not a wanna be JUNIOR , I proudly served my country as a grunt , not a REMF I'm from NY also Junior you can always say what you want to my face instead of from behind a keyboard
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 7:28:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2001 7:25:47 PM EDT by Major-Murphy]
My apologies, then. Your words lead me to believe you were a child. I'm sorry. You WERE addressing me, though. I am a Marine. Again, I apologize. I jumped the gun and thought that you were a kid who didn't know what he was talking about. There didn't seem to be much evidence of any infantry experience or knowledge, at all. An understandable mistake, based on what you posted. Sorry. Honest mistake. I'm in Brooklyn, by the way.
Link Posted: 11/28/2001 7:56:43 PM EDT
No hard feeling Murphy , I have two guys in my unot who are also Marines both grunts , one of them bonifde Recon. I have the utmost respect for our Marine Corps they are truley respected in our country . It does make for good conversation debating with my Jarhead buddies . PS I work in the Bronx , live in Nassau
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