It appears some good judgement overcame a considerable lack of same!

While I decry the idiots lack of ability to speak the language of America its impact on his right to carry is moot with me as I oppose the permit system altogether.  I think any prudent cop should assume that ALL persons are armed - makes for a longer life.

All that being said, the guy SHOULD have obeyed the law of his state.  Would have cost him nothing to do so.  His improper and threatening handling of the gun is inexcusable!  He's darn lucky you didn't BREAK that stupid arm!!  Did I say he was an IDIOT?  Thes are the kind of people that SHOULD NOT be armed until they learn how to handle their weapon.  A suspension is in order no matter HOW much paperwork must be done.  If their is a training provion on CCW there he should be required to re-certify.  Even if there ISN'T a traing provision.  Had a cop handled a weapon in that manner I would suggest HE be retrained.

No CCW in Ohio.  However, when I have contact with acop I try very hard not to be threatening even if I am pissed.  Keep both hands on the wheel, ask to reach in compartment or pocket for appropriate papers etc.  Some of these guys are green as grass and VERY nervous!  I don't want to get shot for scaring some kid that has been all puped up in the Academy and hasn't learned yet how things REALLY are!!

jadams951...

Who are you trying to fool here ?

No offense, but I've NEVER EVER heard of a speeding ticket being written BEFORE having "proof of insurance" in hand...

You specifically stated that you returned to the guys vehicle to issue the citation(s) and chewed him out, THEN asked to see his proof of insurance...    

I thought it was standard operating procedure to obtain ALL relavent paperwork at first...Like, Drivers license, vehicle registration, AND proof of insurance...

It wouldn't make much sense to make two or three trips back and forth to request the next needed bit of paperwork...

Sounds like the story was fluffed up a bit for your own ego...

More likely scenario is that when you learned of his CHL, you decided to "investigate" the type of weapon he had...Your in depth knowledge of weapons would enable you to make an arrest if you could identify the weapon as being "illegal"
When he pulled out his gun to show you, you panicked, and lost your cool...
I've been around good cops and bad cops, rookie cops and veteran cops for ALL my life...
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what really happened...

Call me an asshole if you wish, but I'm not jumping on the "kiss the cops ass" bandwagon...

NO FLAMES INTENDED TO LEO'S
I DON'T HATE COPS
Simply pointing out a MORE likely scenario, and an OBVIOUS inconsistency ...

If I'm wrong jadams, and it was a "typo" on your part, or the chronological order was mixed up, then I apologize for being rude...

Otherwise, I stand firmly behind my statement...

DragRacerArt...  

Jadams951, please tell us the truth. In a traffic stop, do you get info on whether or not a person has a CHL?

If not, do you ask everybody if they are armed?

I have been stopped in several states and can not remember ever being asked.

Good job on not killing the guy or getting his permit revoked.

I'm ashamed of all you "freedom loving" people who think that Jadams should have taken this guys permit and gun.  Here we have a failure to communicate. The situation could have ended badly but didn't.  So many of you are so ready to give up the rights of another. You guys were not even there, yet you can somehow determine that he does not deserve the right to self defense. Somehow it bothers me more when I hear such hypocrisy from the faithful, than when I here it from the Rosie O's of the world.  

It does not bode well for our democracy.

... It's a "don't ask don't tell" policy here. Even though our CCW classes [u]recommend[/u] you present it, I preach not to [u]unless[/u] the investigation goes any further than the "D/L, reg. & proof of ins" phase.

... reason? As I told a DPS office once, "if you needed me to tell you, it would have made a difference at that point"[;D]

DRA:
Insurance papers, DL , and registration are required all at once in this state, only thing I can think of is, maybe Jadams-951 went to run his liscense and registration while he was looking for the insurance.

Hmmmm......Bill"o"Frights....thinks we live in a Democrazy huh ?

Where in the Pledge of Allegiance does it say Democrazy ?,I always thought it said REPUBLIC....maybe I'm wrong,........ but probably not.

       
                    007

Where in SC are you? My experience so far has been quite positive in SC. SC's law is "shall issue" although SLED does take it's own sweet time. S. 261 looks like it will make it even better. It sure beats the old boy system.

Of course I'm not putting Texas down. They've done pretty well for some Tennessee boys who got a mite restless. (I'm originally from Tennessee, gotta keep the colonists in line, you know.)

And finally, Officer(?) Adams (jadams951), I admire your composure and judgement. I know that you can second guess that split second of judgement for the rest of your life if things don't work out. It sounds like the CHL in question needs a bit more education in several respects.

Regards,
Tom (Tachyon)

I support the opinion that the man was too damned stupid to have a weapon to begin with.

It is a universal no no to point a firearm, or any other weapon for that matter, at an officer of the law.

Then again, maybe a gun in (fill in country) is not the same as a gun in the US huh?

You held yourself very well bro!

Probably because each time you apply for or renew your CHL they run the same extensive background check that takes a long time.  If they linked the DL and CHL, you might have a need to drive with an expired DL.  They both expire at the same time though, and you can renew up to 60 days before your CHL expires, which is the legal limit for them to approve or deny you.  Still, I'd personally rather have them seperate.

God Bless Texas

Yes, when he pulls up the DL records of the person, it will indicate that the person has his CHL.  Sometimes it doesn't, but this is rare.  However, legally you do not have to inform the officer unless you are carrying at the time, but not all cops realize this.  Most CHL instructors say it's a good idea to just present the ID regardless so officer bubba, who isn't up on the law, doesn't get up in your face about it.



They'll definitely ask if you have a CHL and didn't present it while carrying.  Furthermore, you're required to present your CHL whenever you are asked for identification from a police officer.  It's a minor offense the first time, but can cost you your license if done repeatedly.



Yes, good job on not killing the guy, but I certainly question the integrity of any CHL instructor who would have let a guy like that through.  My instructor, who is also a tactical instructor and competitive shooter, was adamant about proper gun safety.  If you made a serious mistake on the firing line during the shooting proficiency test, he would take you off the line immediately.  This isn't because he wants to be an ass, but because a moron with a gun who can't obey proper safety is possibly going to get himself or someone else hurt or killed.

And anyone who doesn't understand you don't point a loaded gun at a cop doesn't need to be carrying, regardless of their lack of proficiency with the English language.  His CHL should at the least be suspended because he violated part of the TX CHL law, which is you must present your CHL when carrying and asked for identification by a LEO.  If he didn't understand this then I don't know how he passed the written portion of the test.

God Bless Texas

As the memorial at The Alamo states, we thank you Vols for your service.  Texas wouldn't be what it is without you boys.

God Bless Texas

Dragraceart, I'm a LEO I rarely ask for proof of registration, unless that was the reason for the stop. I have never asked for proof of insurance. Perhaps he just forgot on the initial contact to ask for the insurance paperwork because he got distracted trying to communicate with a non-enlish speaker.

BillofRights, I think that what people are saying is that if you can not follow the rules for safely handling a firearm maybe you shouldn't have one. It is based on the behavior. They never said he can't defend himself, but he can't endanger others.

Tachyon wrote:


I'm in Spartanburg county.  Here and in Greenville, we're not as laid back as in Lancaster county (I think that's where you said you lived).  The officer at the counter I talked to in Spartanburg was down right rude and threatened me when I asked for the application.  And, she's married to a relative of mine!  I don't live far from the Sheriff, and when I asked him for help in getting the application, he looked like he had just swallowed a lemon.  He stammered around for a while about how dangerous it was for the average person to be a gun fight (nice strawman argument).  Greenville wasn't any better.  I had to travel to SLED in Columbia to pick-up an application.  I've been back four times since, and two of those times with an appointment to talk to Chief Stewart.  I still haven't even met the guy.  Also, I went in with nine others with the plan of filing a mandamus brief against Chief Stewart, but after the  lawyer said that if the chief did not follow the order, it would only be misdemeanor unless it involved civil rights (and the right to carry isn't considered a civil right), we decided to drop it.  Even if we won, the chief could still ignore us.

Yes, SC is a shall issue state by law, but SLED hasn't seemed to pickup on that fact yet since they still indiscriminately toss some applications (with the required $50 money order!) and deny others without grounds.  I've been fighting for mine since April 9.

As I understand it, S.261 only removes a few places from the list of places you are restricted from carrying.  Other than reducing the number of required photographs with the application, it does nothing to help citizens exercise their right to carry by helping them obtain a permit.  The restrictions are a hassle, but the simple fact that many people can't get the permit in the first place, is a much larger problem.  I have a couple of customers that have given-up on fighting SLED (one's a lawyer!), and they've gotten a New Hampshire non-resident permit.  SC doesn't officially recognize them, but I guess they assume it's better than nothing.

I don't know what my next move will be.  I'm 73, and I'm too old, tired, and poor to fight the government.  I was gung-ho about this in April, but after spending money on a class, a lot of time off of work, gas to drive to the class, gas to SLED, money on a lawyer, $150 on three different money orders, etc., they've worn me down.z

yes, good job. Just make sure you keep making it home at the end of the day.

I could take care of that beverage thing, if you like?

SSD

CHL connected to your drivers lic!!... yes we all knew it but do we all know why?  so we can be reg. as gun owners. This is the kind of shi that realy makes me maddddd If the guy has a CCW/CHL or what ever it is called in your state it can be assumed that the gov trusts him to carry, so what is the reason that he must also get some leo's permision to continue to do so?? And in what part of our constitution does it say I need one in the first place??? I will never wish harm to a Leo but dont try to take away my rights....pat

not a friggin thing, BUT it is Texas LAW that a CHL holder SHALL(as in imperative) advise an LEO that he is a CHL holder & armed if a situation like this occurs!!!!!
 It is very clear in the law & it is hammered home by an good instructor at a CHL class.



If you want to debate the pros/cons of CHL laws & the logic behind those laws fine. I can understand someone advocating a Vermont style set of laws(essnetially NO restrictions) BUT the reality is 33+ states(correct me if I'm wrong) have passed these laws & citizens choose to get the CHL.  

If a person makes that choice & takes the class that educates them about the law then it IS THAT INDIVIDUAL'S RESPONSIBILTY to COMPLY with the law!!
Ever hear of the term "social contract" ?
So this guy was not only guilty of speeding BUT guilty of not obeying the CHL for which he ELECTED to participate in & exhibited EXTREMELY POOR JUDGMENT & downright NEGLIGENCE when he pointed a loaded pistol at the LEO.
Simple fucking rule here, DON'T point the muzzle end of a gun at anyone/anthing you don't intend to shoot.
Is that not basic shit or what?????
Think I learned that when I was 10yrs old!



So the LEO was just doing his job & this idiot didn't comply with the law or exercise proper firearms edicate.
What did the LEO do wrong???
The speeder is lucky he didn't get his head blown off!
 I think Mr. LEO did a great job & was generous in cutting the fool some slack by not pursuing having his CHL revoked.



Yes, Vermont does have 1 thing going for it.

Where in the US Constitution does it say you have a right to carry concealed firearms??

We didn't loose the 2ed overnight. It will not come all the way back overnight. Hopefully the sheeple will not fear us someday.
Like they worked slowly on us, we work slowly back. What we don’t need is some dumbuck being a poster child for HCI.  
SSD

Oly-M4gery... in the part were it says the right to keep and bear WILL NOT BE INFRINGED... in any way shape or form!

Let me clarify something.  I said he started bringing the muzzle towards me.  It never pointed at me.  You can call me lazy ass partner but obviously you don't know a thing about me so don't judge before you start assuming.  I know it was not this guy's intention to try and hurt me that's why I took the action I did and not suspend/revoke his CHL.  He was simply being stupid.  

I work in Houston but I work for Harris County.

Your right it says "....keep and bear arms..." not keep and hide arms, not keep and arm bears.

"If you had not toungue lashed him in the first place regarding him not showing you his permit then it never would have escalated."


No...that had nothing to do with it and if you read my original thread you would see where I wrote that the "tongue lashing" was at the end.  I simply told him that he is required to show me his CHL along with his DL and he can get his CHL revoked for not complying.  Did I pursue that when I could have???  No

Again read one of the reply's I typed on the first page.  I never said he didn't have the right to self defense.  If you would take the time to read all my posts then you would understand.  Even though I work in an area with a very multi cultural influence it's almost impossible to find an officer to translate on nights.  Where did you come up with the job being too scary part???  What a stupid comment.  But you are always so anti-LEO you already have your mind made up so I'm not going to waste anymore of my time with your comments.

Yes he was returned his weapon at the end of the stop.  I work alot of traffic and run into alot of CHL holders.  This is the first time I've ever disarmed a CHL holder before.  

Well I don't know if the rest of my fellow Texas cops know this, But all it takes to get a CHL here is a green card.  To me that's just scary.  The wife ( a Canadian) and I were looking into this for her, and I thought that she had to be a  US citizen to get one, but all it takes is a green card and proof of state residency.  Scary huh?

I'm not going to call you a jackass.  Here's a thought for you...sometimes people can't find their proof of insurance right away!!!

What exactly do you mean get information on a person who has a CHL?  The truth is I only ask people if they are armed when they present the CHL to me on traffic stops.  Alot of times the CHL holders will present their CHL even when they are not armed.  Also, if I'm making an arrest and I'm about to do my search of the person or an inventory of their vehicle for the tow.  I've never even written a citation to a CHL holder before this time.  But for some of the people here I'm sure that's too hard to believe.  

Actually on the computer systems we have it doesn't show that the person has a CHL or not by just checking their DL.  We have to run them by name and date of birth to get a return showing they have a CHL.  

dragracerart, What's it like to be omniscient??

keep? where in my dresser in a locked vault...under a jacket...keep anywhere.

I am serious. And yes I think bear refers to open carry. I am sure that keep, means owns, possess, store at a place of your choosing. Bear would seem to me to be an open carry. Like, "shoulder arms", stuff for "drilling in the militia". I'm not sure that the FF's thought of concealed carry, mainly because of the size of the weapons back then. But I feel that they were concerned about being restricted when carrying there weapons for sport, target, or militia purposes.

I think the 2nd is one of the least clear amendments, and I'm not sure that the FF's didn't want it that way.

I don't want to add to what the 2nd says anymore than I want some gun grabber defining "arms" for me, or you, which seemingly is how CA, NJ, MA, and NY get around the Constitution.

edited for grammar/typing

Well, when I was stopped in Bell County in August, that's exactly how it happened.  The officer came to my car, informed me that I had been stopped for speeding, asked me for my DL, and returned to his car.  After running my DL (presumably) and writing out the ticket, he returned to my car and asked to see proof of insurance.  After I showed him proof of insurance, he had me sign the ticket, mentioned that my safety inspection was expired but he wasn't going to issue a citation for that, thanked me for my courtesy, and left.

I don't know if he just forgot to ask for proof of insurance at first or if that's how that officer usually does it, but I certainly wasn't worrying about any sinister conspiracy going on.

I've only been pulled over once, and it was in Austin, TX back when I was in college.  They asked for DL and insurance.  I gave him my DL and had to look for my insurance card, so he just went back and ran my license.  His partner, seeing my guitar in it's "gig bag" in the front passenger seat asked to make sure there wasn't a weapon inside, because it does resemble a nylon range bag.  I said sure, and after seeing the guitar we start talking about guitars, because he owns a 1962 Gibson SG, which is much cooler than my 1994 Gibson SG1.  Anyway, after running my license and seeing that I had a spotless record, he comes back and tells me to turn my lights on and have a nice night.  Never even saw my insurance, and definitely much cooler than my anti-establishment self ever expected cops to be.

God Bless Texas

Well, then, I'd be happy to buy you the beverage of your choice (adult or otherwise). Good job on keeping your head when the situation became tense.

For the rest here: Since I carry around a copy of all the laws regarding the CHL and the use of deadly force I can say without reservation that the section on presenting the CHL with the ID is not at all vague or qualified. It's as straight-forward as any legal language can possibly be. Since I've lived in the Houston area for close to 20 years I'm in a good position to pick out any problems with the events as they are described. I see no glaring inconsistancies so I conclude the story is told with as much accuracy as possible. I have NEVER been asked to produce the vehicle registration in Texas except when there was a glitch in Austin's computer system and it incorrectly showed that my car was unregistered.

I'm undecided on whether or not the guy's license should be taken away. Just because he speaks english poorly is no reason for the state to deem his life unworthy of protecting. Still, for reasons that must be all too obvious, he does need to learn English.

Some of you may believe that jadams951 enflamed the situation by even admonishing him for not presenting the CHL in the first place. Perhaps it never occured to you that the officer did the man a service. The next cop to pull this butt-monkey over might not be so calm or level-headed. Obviously, he was in dire need of some remedial education on the proper conduct during a traffic stop. Hopefully, this is a lesson he'll remember.

If unsafe firearm handling were a disqualifier for possession, our police forces would have many unarmed officers.  No Joke.  Negligent discharges are not altogether uncommon in changing rooms and I even heard of a large mirror in an entry area being offed by a all too real quick draw.

And Oly- if someone goes one mile per hour over a speed limit that is an infraction.  This in reverse is the prohibition of citizens to allow government at any level to constrict firearms ownership or use.  You have no duty to persecute someone on a firearms charge alone.  Just be careful.  The authority you enjoy comes from the same document you may violate in matters firearm.  Don't blow the respect you have worked to gain.  Thank you for your public service.  Planerench out.

sad, but true

Part of my point was I don't understand how FS, or Full cap mag bans are Consitutional.....I think firearms are tools, there are no bad ones, well lorcin.(kidding) but it is what people do with them..... Only people I've charged with firearms type violations did something else. Burglary is bad, armed burglary is worse.

That's no lie.  It never ceases to amaze me how crappy some officers are.  Last week I took a shooting class at one of the local academies.  This dang rookie is up at the firing line doing timed speed drills from drawing and shooting two rounds center mass.  Pretty simple right...he starts off and can't even get the damn gun out the holster.  Then he keeps shooting the dude in the nuts instead of center mass.  Not that that shot isn't effective!!!  Then he empties his wheelgun and keeps pulling the trigger and can't figure out why it's not going boom so he decides to get help from the instructor by moving the muzzle towards the instructor.  Last month I had to requalify and we had a Sgt shooting a Glock 26.  She kept having FTE with it.  So her way of clearing the gun was to rack the slide with her finger on the trigger.  Then we had another Sgt, who is like a 25 year cop, retired from HPD and came to work for us shooting a Colt 1911.  I was watching him after each shot pushing the slide the rest of the way forward because the slide was only going halfway forward after being shot.  Obviously he isn't too concerned with his safety when he's just trying to get through another qualification.  I could write tons more but I'll stop for now

You know, that makes sense.

Damn canadians.......:)

Shoot!  (no pun intended) But this reminds me of that old movie "Running Scared" with Billy Crystal and Gregory Hines.  

EVERYBODY should understand certain universal phrases no matter which language.  Like when Crytal held a gun to a hispanic drug runner in the movie and said:  "Hablo Smith and Wesson?"

I'm having a really hard time figuring out just what might make a handgun illegal. Texas is NOT Kalifornia, thank God. As long as it's not fully automatic, there's little that could make one illegal, in and of itself. Sound to me like you just want to bash a cop. I've bashed plenty of cops in my time but only when they do something that warants it. This particular one did well in IMHO.