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Posted: 10/4/2001 11:00:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:04:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:46:03 AM EST
Are there any Jack-in-the-Box burger joints on the east coast?
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 11:49:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 11:45:03 AM EST by 95thFoot]
Originally Posted By TheCommissioner: Are there any Jack-in-the-Box burger joints on the east coast?
View Quote
Kangaroo meat, anybody? :^) "Goodonyer, cobber"
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 12:17:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 12:12:01 PM EST by LAcop]
Vaccine for Anthrax ? Whats the deal with that ? Where do you get it, and why don't we all have it ? [peep]
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 12:31:56 PM EST
They tried to make everyone in the service take it. From what I remember, art bell led a big charge against it. I hope he's happy at the number of people he convinced to avoid the shot.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 12:38:02 PM EST
Pretty strange timing.... Are they hinting at all that he is a terrorist that accidentally got a dose of his own medicine?
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:21:18 PM EST
I just got off the phone with the Palm Beach County Health Dept. Their IS a confermed case of Pulmanary Anthrax in the City of Lantana.The health Dept. says it is an isolated single case, and the State and the CDC are working the case with the local Health Dept. to find where it came from. Lantana is about 35 min North of Ft.Lauderdale where I live.Can I tell you I am NOT happy right now. Palm Beach County Health Department P.O. Box 29, West Palm Beach, FL 33402 (561) 840-4500 echo6
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:30:52 PM EST
To build on Echo6, Lantana is about 90 miles north of Miami, right near West Palm Beach. The report I heard on local radio just a couple hours ago said that the man was an "outdoorsman" who had just returned from North Carolina. They aren't sure where he picked it up, but the region just west and north of West Palm has lots of catlle ranching, as well as being decent areas for hunting deer and hogs. We just finished archery season here, black powder opens this weekend. An out door type guy could easily pick up something like this if he was in close contact with animals or their remains. What is more interesting is that they reported he had just gotten in from North Carolina. I wonder what part? Anywhere near Bragg? Just speculating, not starting any wild ass rumors, but I watching this with the antenna up.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 1:50:31 PM EST
I'm not too knowledgeable on Anthrax so excuse the dumb questions... Is Anthrax something you can pickup from Nature? I mean something out there where there was no HUMAN introducing the 'virus' 'bacteria' whatever it is. I thought Anthrax was developed by Humans and can only be transmitted if a Human does something to release it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:03:37 PM EST
Anthrax spores occur naturally, and can be found in populations of wild animals, domestic animals exposed to wild, and is found naturally occurring in soil. Anthrax infections most commonly encountered are dermal (skin) infections resulting from contact with a contaminated animal or other material. Pulmonary infections from inhaled anthrax spores are far less common, though not unknown. For anthrax to be used successfully as a weapon, the attacker must get enough of it into the air so that sufficient quantity is inhaled by enough members of the target population to result in a fast spreading infection. Introducing large quantities of spores to a sufficiently vulnerable population is the hurdle that is hardest to overcome. I'm not panicking over this one, but am watching carefully.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:09:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2001 5:44:01 PM EST by drjarhead]
Anthrax has been around for far longer than humans have walked on this planet. It is present in nature and in general in contracted in 3 ways: cutaneous(skin), gastrointestinal and inhalation(by far the worst). It is treated with antibiotics: IV penicillin,or doxycycline or fluoroqinolones such as ciprofloxacin. The latter 2 can be given orally or IV, though inhalation anthrax needs to be treated IV, at least initially, and needs to be treated as long as 6 weeks duration. Other antibiotics may be useful as well but these are the ones I'd stick with. Anthrax toxin is actually from viral mediated plasmids(viruses also infect bacteria) and FWIW most really nasty bacterial toxins are a result of viral proteins that may have been propagated within these bacteria for eons. The Vaccine does have a high side effect profile and as such it has been considered to be of greater risk to the general population than the relatively low risk of anthrax. Anthrax resides in the soil and is a spore former. As such, during times of hardship- drought, etc. it forms a spore which is highly resistant to heat, drying, radiation,etc. I can tell you from experience that such spores are extremely difficult to destroy. They can survive for decades, maybe much longer. Areas with known anthrax in the soil have been and remain quarantined. You cannot get inhalation Anthrax from another person, unlike a wide variety of other infectious agents. Personally, I don't think they ever should have discontiunued smallpox vaccinations and the first chance I get I will get my kids vaccinated. In case you are interested a virus is as different from a bacteria as we are from a slug. Hope I answered most of your questions.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:13:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:20:14 PM EST
I have family 21 and 28 miles SW of Lantana. I hope he caught it somewhere far away from there. If this is bioterrorism then we need a nuclear retaliation. Some assholes a while back maile out a white poder with a note saying they'd exposed to Anthrax. This is the first I've ever heard of a confirmed case in S. Florida.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 2:40:47 PM EST
cc48510, My guess is we're hearing about this case only due to all the concern about bioterrorism. If not for that you'd be unlikely to ever hear a word about it. Same will probably be true a year or two from now.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:11:04 PM EST
Drjarhead - Whats the proper dose & duration for cipro orally for anthrax?
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 4:38:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 5:21:59 PM EST
This would be an incredable coincidence in my mind. You don't get pulminary anthrax from getting a drink of water from a stream. Anthrax has an incubation period which varies but 16 days is a commonly quoted incubation period. Guess when 16 days ago was. The 22nd. The day that there were to be suspected terrorist activities in the US. There has not been a case of anthrax in humans in the US in 25 years - not to mention airborn anthrax. Don't know if there has ever been a case of this in the US. The guy is a little old to be involved in the terrorist side but thats still a possibility. I take what I hear from the Govt/Media complex with a grain of salt. I guess time will tell.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 5:42:44 PM EST
Beer slayer is largely correct. Mortality rate for inhalation anthrax is greater than 80% even if treated. However, is about 100% without treatment. Bad shit, as they say. Course of treatment is 6 weeks and should be started as IV. That is relatively important. Of course, anything is better than nothing and taking antibiotics prophylactically would likely be more protective. That's an informed assumption. Listen guys, don't panic. I wouldn't rec for everyone to start eating Cipro yet. I would agree that I wouldn't necessarily trust the government in this. The last thing they'd want to do is start a panic. I've got some doxycyline, Cipro and Leovofloxacin on hand, FWIW(see bottom).As for when the last case of anthrax was, I couldn't answer but I doubt much whether it would have become general knowledge, for whatever that's worth. I do know that there were cases of anthrax in the US in the last two decades. There have also been sporadic outbreaks throughout the world. Most notably in Zimbabwe in 1979 and 1980. Be aware that many cases are likely not diagnosed or reported throughout the world. Estimates as high as 100,000 cases per year worldwide. Also be aware that as with any infection a minimal infectious dose is required. Small numbers of most microbes are destroyed by the host immune response before they are able to do harm. Of the antibiotics I mentioned doxycycline is by far the least expensive. I just got 1000 for $46. Cipro and levofloxacin are about $6/tab. Also, FWIW, plague (Yersinia pestis) is susceptible to Doxy and very likely to the fluoroquinolones as well. Plague might be far more useful to bioterrorists for a varity of reasons.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 6:14:06 PM EST
I do want to add that doxycyline, ciprofloxacin and related antibiotics are potentially harmful. Doxycyline should definitely not be taken by pregnant women and young children unless there is no other alternative. It causes problems with tooth development. It is notorious for sun sensitivity as well. Fluoroquinolones are not generally rec for children due to problems with bone development in dogs(animal studies), though it does not appear to be much of a problem in kids and more docs are using them. I try not to. I do tend to be fairly conservative with med use and I rarely use new meds right out of the FDA pipeline. Some shit is being approved to soon now.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 6:30:07 PM EST
DEVILS ADVOCATE: Can you vaccinate against the plague?? I think that perhaps the Probability of Use of Anthrax may be higher becuase you can vaccinate yourself against it. Escpecially in the low tech delivery model where spillage and contamination is probably much more probable. What i am saying is this. Terrorists seem most likely to use low tech delivery of any chemical or biological substance. Wouldn't they choose something that they can remain immune to? Ben
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 6:44:35 PM EST
You make a good point, Ben. I definitely have got to agree with your premise. Inhalation anthrax is more deadly than plague, less susceptible to antibiotics(though pneumonic plage-ie inhaled-is very deadly and rapidly so. Within days.)and no vaccine is a sure thing. You'd also have to consider potential exposure of spores off your clothes, baggage, etc. Anthrax is just one of those things that could come back to bite you on the ass. Further, there are plenty of other germ warfare agents that can be used.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 6:45:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: DEVILS ADVOCATE: ...Terrorists seem most likely to use low tech delivery of any chemical or biological substance. Wouldn't they choose something that they can remain immune to? Ben
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I agree they'd probably use a low-tech delivery system, but I don't think they much care if they (the terrorists) are not vaccinated. They didn't seem to mind slamming themselves into a building with a passenger airliner; why would they worry about not being vaccinated?
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 7:12:16 PM EST
DRJarhead -- What antibiotic would be advisable to "stockpile" for children and pregnant women? Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 7:53:56 PM EST
tetracyclines such as doxy should not be used in preg women or kids under 8. Fluoroquinolones such as cipro are rec for empiric treatment in kids post exposure in the new Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy. For kids or pregnant women penicillins are would be of low toxicity and should be efficacious. Cephalosporins(like ceftin, keflex, etc) and macrolides(like erythromycin) for penicillin allergic patients would likely work fine. Anthrax is fairly susceptible to antibiotics but once it gets going and there is increased levels of toxin treatment becomes very difficult. I'll give you the recs right out of the Sanford Guide(2000-sorry, my 2001 is at work) 1) empiric treatment(coverage of person suspected to have anthrax); Ciprofloxacin 400 mg IV every 12 hours or levofloxacin 500 mg IV daily for total treatment of 60 days. In kids 20-30mg/kg weight/day divided in twice daily doses. Fluoroquinolones such as those just noted are very well absorbed orally and I suspect in a large outbreak oral meds would have to be used after the initial doses. Nobody has much experience with doing this, of course. Alternative is IV penicillin G 4mil units IV every 4 hours or doxycycline 100 mg IV every 12 hours. In kids under 12 dose: 50,000 U/kg Pen G IV every 6 hours. 2)post exposure prevention Cipro 500 mg orally every 12 hours or doxycycline 100 mg orally every 12 hours. In kids(do not exceed max adult dose) ciprofloxacin dosed as above or doxy 5mg/kg weight/day divided into twice daily doses. If Anthrax is confirmed they rec switch to Amoxicillin 40mg/kg/day divided into every 8 hour dosing. My assumption is that the Amox would be a very good choice but might not cover as many bacteria as the other "broad spectrum" antibiotic in the event that the illness is not caused by Anthrax. FWIW, Penicillins are first line therapy for Anthrax. Now be aware every situation is a little different. If you have a specific question, know ages, alergies, etc. I might be able to better help you. For kids 8 or over I'd tend to go with doxycycline. Very good coverage at an affordable cost.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:16:39 PM EST
One thing -- it is INCREDIBLY STUPID to take random antibiotics in the hope that they will prevent an illness. If this is "weaponized" anthrax, as was definitely made by the former Soviet Union and is believed to have been made by Iraq, any antibiotic you take could do nothing more than clear the way for the bug to get medieval on you. I learned this the hard way with an infection last year. Antibiotic-resistant strains are very real and very dangerous. . . .
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:16:44 PM EST
Hey guys take a look in Mn There is Anthrax in cattle Deer And in the ground up here. Animals are dropping dead here. They say it is from all the flooding we have had. The Anthrax is dormant in the ground it stays there forever from what the DNR tells us. So maybe it is Not A terroristic attack. Hopefuly i am right. The Meat processing Plants wont even take people deer here anymore They won,t even allow it to be on the property.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:21:36 PM EST
Drjarhead Thank you for your expertise! I was wondering if its still possible to get a small pox vaccine via a family doctor. I was vaccinated as a child but my kids haven't been. In your opinion should they be. Thanks again!!! Raptor
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:42:39 PM EST
Achmed is correct and as I stated I definitely do not rec everyone eating antibiotics for the next 6-8weeks. If an outbreak did occur we would have antibiotic susceptibilities on the organism within 24-72 hours and would thus know what to treat with. Resistance would be a huge concern with an "engineered organism" but that would require a fair amount of sophistication. Of course Bin Laden has plenty of money to expend on such activities. In the case of multi-drug resistance and limited supplies of antibiotics to which the organism is susceptible I would probably try multiple drug regimens and hope the patients immune response were able to do the rest. The young and healthy would be most likely to survive. The elderly and debilitated would not do well. Alot of people have worried about more lethal microbes being created and I'm sure that there has been some research in this area in a large number of defense labs around the world. However, nature has done well in creating extremely lethal organisms and doesn't really need much help from us. The trick really would be introduction of the organism in such a way that a large number of individuals are infected in a short period of time thus overwhelming the facilities of the nation being attacked. Kind of scary, that way. Its an urban legend that the CIA started created AIDS and introduced the HIV into africa to kill africans. I think that's total bullshit.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 8:52:45 PM EST
Raptor, the smallpox vaccine is not currently available. I hope they make it so soon once again. My kids will get it when it is available. My wife and I have been vaccinated. I've long held that it was a mistake to discontinue that one as long as it was being kept in labs around the world. No cases worldwide in over 20 years, though. Superfly, a concomitant outbreak in two parts of the country is far more alarming to me and raises my concern re: possible bioterrorism. I urge everyone to be alert and keep up with the news. I've found this site to be immensely informative during this time with everyone sharing info and keeping everyone apprised of any new developments.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 9:15:25 PM EST
DrJarhead: You seem to have a deifnite in, as far as the medical community goes. But for some of us less-informed, where can we acquire the antibiotics you're speaking of? I know you can't just wander into the pharmacy and demand penicillin over the counter. So how can the general public go about building up a decent store of things like this? Any direction you can point me in would be a big help.
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 10:44:30 PM EST
Find a sympathetic quack and beg him for a prescription?? As stupid as it is, doctors give out antibiotic prescriptions for childrens' colds -- in case you don't understand why that's so amazingly dumb, colds are caused by virii, and antibiotics don't even remotely touch virii. But the docs do it to shut the screaming-bitch mothers up and get them out of their offices. (The only thing that this does is to make the antibiotics useless when the kids have an honest-to-Pasteur bacterial infection. Thanks, welfare moms.) The other things you can do include xeroxing prescriptions and using internet pharmacies to fill them multiple times, forging prescriptions, stealing prescription pads from doctors' offices, and so on. Show some adaptability, sheesh. For antibiotics, pharmacies just don't care all that much -- it's not like you're trying to buy morphine, ferchrissake. My primary care physician just uses a laser printer to issue prescriptions; anyone with an HP LaserJet and Microsoft Word can print out as many as they want. Incidentally, anyone know what the shelf life is on Maxaquin (lomefloxacin), and care to guess the likelihood of it being useless against a hardened strain of anthrax? Just curious, I got stuck with a shitload of it last year, and the vial doesn't have an expiration date listed on it. ABTW, for doxycycline and the other members of the tetracycline family -- THROW IT OUT AFTER THE EXPIRATION DATE. The stuff is worse than useless after that point. . . .
Link Posted: 10/4/2001 10:46:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 3:45:01 AM EST
Dr. Jarhead, You are very correct about the recommended regime for the treatment of Anthrax. Question for you though, "Doctor" Jarhead seems kind of a contradiction? No offense meant, I'm just curious... I thought the NAVY Medical/Dental Corps supported the Marines... has this changed? Do they have Marine Corps Physicians now? I used to be a Navy Dentist til I got out in 95. At that time there were only TWO Marine Corps "Doctors", One Physician and One Dentist who were actually commissioned in the Marines and NOT in the Navy... They didnt perform health care services, but served in an Administrative capacity. So what's your story, just out of curiosity? kraMrD
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 5:38:57 AM EST
Achmed, you are amazingly correct about why docs treat colds, etc with antibiotics. I refuse to do so and can tell you it is a real pain in the ass sometimes. It is far, far easier to just give them what they want whether it is good medicine or not. mattimeo, The company I got my doxy from didn't even ask for my med lic #, etc. I'll get their phone number and address later and post it. Please don't take meds without good reason, though. kramrd, My story? Went in Marines as enlisted at age 17, then got degrees in microbiology and chem, worked at Mayo Clinic for 4years as microbiologist, then med school, residency and here I am. That's the condensed version, of course.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 5:48:51 AM EST
[url]http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no4/inglesby.htm[/url] CDC website: Anthrax: A Possible Case History
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 10:02:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2001 9:59:54 AM EST by cc48510]
Plaugue has more symbolism than Anthrax. These terrorists as well as trying to kill alot of people are very into symbolism. The World Tarde Centers = Capitalism. Pentagon = U.S. Military Might. And on and on and on. They could have killed more people other ways but they took the route that would kill alot and make the biggest mark. Anthrax while being nasty stuff, doesn't leave the indelible marks left by diseases such as Plague or Ebola. If they wanted they could even try Hunta Virus which you guys in AZ should know about. Any of these would leave a lot bigger mark. Anthrax: Assphyxiation. 80% Lethal. Not Easily Treatable. Non-Contagious. Plague: Lesions, Death (Cause ?). Low Lethality if treated. Treatable. Highly Contagious. Transferred by Fleas and Rats. Ebola: Severe wasting, Organs turn to mush. 100% Lethal. Untreatble. Moderately Contagious. Direct Contact, Bodily Fluids, etc. Hunta Virus: Drowning. 100% Lethal. untreable. Not much known about it. Mildly contagious. Transferred by Rats. [Edited To Add] Mad Cow Disease: (Cause of Death ?). 100% Lethal. Untreatable. Non-Contagiously. Easily transferred to animals and then to their food by-products.
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 10:08:44 AM EST
Antibiotics: got mine from Schueler Health Care 1-800-334-6330 74 Cherry Valley Ave W. Hempstead, NY 11552 FWIW, they didn't even ask for a med lic #, DEA number, etc. Just act professional, I guess. You could also ask your family doc. Under the circumstances I doubt it would be much of a problem if you know and trust each other. Insurance Company might be another story, though. Shelf life depends on date of manufacture. If you have a lot # you could talk to manufacturer or otherwise ask the pharmacy that provided the prescription. Tetracyclines have a relatively short shelf life and can become toxic. I believe achmed already alluded to this. Hope this helps.
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