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3/30/2017 8:57:49 PM
3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 9/22/2001 6:11:10 PM EDT
In several cases this week, passengers of Middle Eastern descent have been booted from flights because of concerns from pilots or passengers. This has occurred in Orlando, Minneapolis, San Antonio, and Tampa . In some cases they have been told in no uncertain terms the pilot or passengers didn't feel safe flying with them aboard. Can you say lawsuit? I feel sorry for any decent Arab American subjected to such discrimination, but I know I would be uneasy too if 3 or 4 middle eastern gents sat down next to me now. I am surprised a pilot would boot a passenger after a proper search, but that's what has happened.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 6:17:57 PM EDT
I heard it on the radio today that on northeast air that they booted off one Arab man. He said he was upset with it and flew on Delta. It is in Notheast Air policy that they can put off ANYONE that the passengers want off. It has always been that way too. It is pretty sad but if I was flying I hate to say it but I would feel uneasy with anyone of that descent too. I have never felt that way untill 9/11. I hope I get over it real soon.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 7:35:38 PM EDT
I read on a link to the FAA that that's an FAA policy and applies to all airlines. Perhaps they put it in place as the result of air rage. Hell, that's the last of our worries these days, isn't it?
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 7:45:19 PM EDT
The newspapers also had a story today about boxcutters being discovered between the seatcushions of TWO ADJACENT SEATS on one plane. The speculation is that someone on the service crew was hiding the weapons there for later use by the terrorists. To help reduce this kind of threat, I'd like to see the airlines "shuffle" the passenger seating as the passengers are entering the plane — Nobody gets the seat they asked for when they originally made their reservation (although First Class passengers would still fly in the First Class section). You could still accommodate requests for aisle or window seats to a certain degree, but just not in the same row as your reservations said.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 7:49:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: I read on a link to the FAA that that's an FAA policy and applies to all airlines. Perhaps they put it in place as the result of air rage. Hell, that's the last of our worries these days, isn't it?
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Well for as long as I can remember it is the PILOT's discretion who flies on "his" plane.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 10:04:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra:
Originally Posted By mattja: I read on a link to the FAA that that's an FAA policy and applies to all airlines. Perhaps they put it in place as the result of air rage. Hell, that's the last of our worries these days, isn't it?
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Well for as long as I can remember it is the PILOT's discretion who flies on "his" plane.
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Discretion with accountability, yes. The pilot has to be prepared to justify [b]why[/b] he felt that way, and the justification has to be reasonable.
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 10:47:49 PM EDT
i work for a major airline and we did hear about this.. also we hear some pilots are looking for work...any one need a racist pilot ???
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 1:49:46 AM EDT
I'm sure the pilot has the final say, but the FAA regulation I read stated that if the presence of a certain passenger (or a few passengers) causes concern among the passengers at large, then the airline is compelled to remove them from the flight. It was right on the FAA web site.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 1:56:27 AM EDT
I'm sure the flak will come at me with this but, I have no problem with that call. Pilot doesn't like something? I will not argue him. Last thing I want is an uneasy pilot.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:03:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane: The newspapers also had a story today about boxcutters being discovered between the seatcushions of TWO ADJACENT SEATS on one plane. The speculation is that someone on the service crew was hiding the weapons there for later use by the terrorists. To help reduce this kind of threat, I'd like to see the airlines "shuffle" the passenger seating as the passengers are entering the plane — Nobody gets the seat they asked for when they originally made their reservation (although First Class passengers would still fly in the First Class section). You could still accommodate requests for aisle or window seats to a certain degree, but just not in the same row as your reservations said.
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All they would have to do is hide the stuff in the bathrooms then seat changes wouldn't matter.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 4:49:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paterpk: i work for a major airline and we did hear about this.. also we hear some pilots are looking for work...any one need a racist pilot ???
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Okay, whatever you say there Mr. Al Sharpton (Or is it Jesse Jackson?). Those pilots are not being racist, just cautious. You don't know the full story. Neither you nor I know how many of them there were, how they behaved, what they said, or any of their actions. So don't go off half cocked about "racist pilots". And no, those pilots won't lose their jobs for their decisions. Let me read something to you out of CFR 91.3(a): "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." That's it. No ifs, ands, or buts. I know they don't teach you guys that in bag throwing school, so just print this page and study it for a while. As an airline captain, I can make decisions based fact, fiction, heresay, little voices in my head, hair standing up on the back of my neck, etc. That's one reason the U.S. has (used to have?) the safest airlines in the world, because we can make safety decisions without fear of recourse. My advice for paterpk is to borrow a dollar and buy a clue. And be thankful airlines lay off employees in reverse seniority instead of those with the lowest I.Q. Okay, I'll quit spanking now. [spank] -Dave
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 5:17:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 5:17:27 AM EDT by ECS]
Call it what you like, personally I'm glad people are being cautious these days. When people's lives are at stake you sometimes go on instinct. Its easy to armchair quaterback after the fact.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 6:08:02 AM EDT
My family flies a lot. When I put my daughter and granddaughter on a plane, I don't want to have some politically correct asshole overruling the pilot's good sense and sound discretion, period! Even if I determined that the same pilot had consistently refused to fly with some passengers based upon their 'profile', my answer would be the same. The last thing we need right now is to permit some sort of equal deployment opportunity BS to operate on airlines! Eric The(SorryIfThatOffendsYou)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:11:15 PM EDT
It is very easy to say that when you know this type of discrimination will never affect you.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 12:31:16 PM EDT
I seriously doubt these chicken dropletts would have the guts to try and kick off a Black Muslim from a flight because they don't feel comfortable.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:18:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 2:18:12 PM EDT by cnatra]
Originally Posted By RejectAtV1: Let me read something to you out of CFR 91.3(a): "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." -Dave
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As I suspected! [:D] And rightfully so!!!
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:23:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By levi: I seriously doubt these chicken dropletts would have the guts to try and kick off a Black Muslim from a flight because they don't feel comfortable.
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A concerned pilot wouldn't think twice! All he has to do is get on the horn & then the local LEO's will escort anyone the pilot has a concern about right off the plane.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:45:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:46:59 PM EDT
So screw any citizen that might look like an Arab? How do you propose we get around the country or the globe? Drive or canoe? You guys huff & puff about the constitution, but when it comes down to it you really don't support it. You're just democrats in disguise no better than Feinstein & Clinton. If they "pass" inspection whats the beef? What would make it "safe" for you to fly with an Arab-like person? Restraints? A bagde that says they passed a background security check? A Yellow Star? "...with liberty & justice for all." [V]
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 2:51:59 PM EDT
You wanna bet? I'll kick anyone off I see fit if it affects or may affect the safety of a flight. I would never discriminate against anyone, and I seriously doubt any of my cohorts have. But I do have latitude to ensure the safety of my passengers. We don't know if the deplaned paassengers acted suspiciously, made threats, or how many of them there are. Again, I don't have any problems throwing anyone off. Neither do my passengers. If you have any doubts, find the biggest, meanest Muslim(or Christian, Hindu, Jew, etc...it doesn't matter) you can find, let him make a disturbance on my aircraft and watch me personally roll him out on his derier. No problem. I execute my job in a professional manner and have no place for discrimination, but likkewise I'm not beholden to the politically correct crowd. I put my integrity above such trivialities, as do most of my fellow pilots and probably most of the fine people on this board. One more thing. I'm one big chicken droplett. -Dave
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:04:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: So screw any citizen that might look like an Arab? How do you propose we get around the country or the globe? Drive or canoe? You guys huff & puff about the constitution, but when it comes down to it you really don't support it. You're just democrats in disguise no better than Feinstein & Clinton. If they "pass" inspection whats the beef? What would make it "safe" for you to fly with an Arab-like person? Restraints? A bagde that says they passed a background security check? A Yellow Star? "...with liberty & justice for all." [V]
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Dude I don't think anyone is advocating discriminating against anyone in particular. This primarily has to do with the concept that a commercial airline pilot is the "captain of his ship" & the safety of those passengers aboard his plane is ultimately his responsibiltiy & one that most pilots take seriously. So if a pilot has any legitimate concern he may (should!?!) error on the cautious side. Isn't that common sense? What would you do if the safety of 100-300 people was in your hands???
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:18:04 PM EDT
I was flying back from Tennessee Thursday and I got to the airport in Nashville at 9:30 am. I was scheduled for the 1:30 PM flight and I wanted to check in early. Next to the NW desk, I see about 15 middle easterners at the Delta desk. They have a giant cart filled with crap and they are boisterous. I go to the counter and the girl asks me if I want to take the 10:10 am Flight. I say yes but think this is how ironic stories start. I tell her if I there is no room that is ok and I will wait. She gets me on the flight and I think at least I will not have to travel with the menagerie next to me. I get on the plan in an exit row next to the window. I am getting comfortable when I hear a ruckus. I look over and I see the middle easterners board the plane. They all have giant carry-on bags and are trying to find overhead bins. I am feeling nervous but things settle down and they shut the cabin door for take-off. The next thing I know they open the door and let three more on. Each carrying their giant carry-on bag and looking for overhead space. What a cluster. As this is going on the others are going back into their bags and getting stuff out and moving around the cabin. At this point, I am thinking about leaving the plane. I am wondering why the hell you need to show up three hours early. While this is going on I am trying to figure out who the leader is and who can help on the flight in case things go to shit. We take-off and land and all went well. Nevertheless, if this is the new and improved security, we are screwed!
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:30:18 PM EDT
cnatra: I would urge you to review some of the comments made here already. If that isn't "advocating discrimination" well... "Even if I determined that the same pilot had consistently refused to fly with some passengers based upon their 'profile', my answer would be the same....(sorry if that offends you)." "Call it what you like, personally I'm glad people are being cautious these days." " While this is going on I am trying to figure out who the leader is and who can help on the flight in case things go to shit." Are we reading the same thing? Oh wait, "you" (not just you) are not the color of the moment so it really is hard to understand unless you would like to switch colors with me for awhile. Like the man said, "call IT what you like..." but it still boils down to discrimination...er cautiousness. I am not against safety. I'm all for it. Yes ...be cautious. Screen & have full security procedures. Report anyone suspicious. But when I start hearing several dozen to hundreds of Arab-like people are being turned away from flights, its clear to me what is happening. They ALL are not terrorists .....are they? How did ALL of them fail the safety test to get on the plane?
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:45:57 PM EDT
Relax people. I'm there. Pilots and police aren't hauling off Muslims from airplanes. There have been a very small handful of incidents, of which we do not know the specifics. I find it a little ironic that there are people prejudging the motives of pilots, with no factual basis, just heresay. If you want to racebait, I think the NAACP has a website where you can vent.[rolleyes] -Dave
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:46:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Matrix: cnatra: How did ALL of them fail the safety test to get on the plane?
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What test?, what safety?, (See my post above) If you think things have changed, you will be disappointed.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 3:58:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2001 4:00:13 PM EDT by cnatra]
Originally Posted By Matrix: cnatra: I would urge you to review some of the comments made here already. If that isn't "advocating discrimination" well... "Even if I determined that the same pilot had consistently refused to fly with some passengers based upon their 'profile', my answer would be the same....(sorry if that offends you)." "Call it what you like, personally I'm glad people are being cautious these days." " While this is going on I am trying to figure out who the leader is and who can help on the flight in case things go to shit." Are we reading the same thing? Oh wait, "you" (not just you) are not the color of the moment so it really is hard to understand unless you would like to switch colors with me for awhile. Like the man said, "call IT what you like..." but it still boils down to discrimination...er cautiousness. I am not against safety. I'm all for it. Yes ...be cautious. Screen & have full security procedures. Report anyone suspicious. But when I start hearing several dozen to hundreds of Arab-like people are being turned away from flights, its clear to me what is happening. They ALL are not terrorists .....are they? How did ALL of them fail the safety test to get on the plane?
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Hey ,I don't condone discriminating against anyone & I understand your concerns. Those are legitimate concerns. These ideas of a "Homeland Defense Czar" & a "National I.D. Card " I find worrisome. It is very Orwellian !! That scares me. I think a lot of things are slowly slipping by the masses & before you know it we'll wake up in a Brave New World. A horrific event has just happened & there will be some over reaction but hopefully new methods & safety procedures can be implemented without stepping on the very liberties we prize. I'm cautiously optimistic it can happen but extremists on both sides may look to exploit oppurtunites. The public needs to pay attention & try & keep Big Brother in check.
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 4:04:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra: Hey ,I don't condone discriminating against anyone &
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Except Crazy Murdering Islamists who place NO value on human life!! Those nuts should all be Nuked!
Link Posted: 9/23/2001 4:10:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra: These ideas of a "Homeland Defense Czar" & a "National I.D. Card " I find worrisome.
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It is Civil Defense repackaged, this time it is terrorist instead of nukes.
Link Posted: 9/24/2001 3:47:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By cnatra: These ideas of a "Homeland Defense Czar" & a "National I.D. Card " I find worrisome.
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It is Civil Defense repackaged, this time it is terrorist instead of nukes.
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I hope that's the extent of it.
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