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Posted: 9/20/2001 3:36:04 PM EDT
From the Wall Street Journal - Europe How Lebanon Reacted to the News By Elisabetta Burba, an Italian journalist. Where were you on Sept. 11, when terrorists changed the world? I was in Beirut, at the National Museum, enjoying the wonders of the ancient Phoenicians with my husband. This tour of past splendor only magnified the shock I received later when I heard the news, and saw the reactions all around me. Walking downtown, I realized that the offspring of this great civilization were celebrating a terrorist outrage. And I am not talking about destitute people. Those who were cheering belonged to the elite of the Paris of the Middle East: professionals wearing double-breasted suits, charming blonde ladies, pretty teenagers in tailored jeans. Trying to find our bearings, we went into an American-style cafe in the Hamra district, near Rue Verdun, rated as one of the most expensive shopping streets in the world. Here the cognitive dissonance was immediate, and direct: the cafe's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked, or moved. They were excited, very excited. An hour later, at a little market near the American Embassy, on the outskirts of Beirut, a thrilled shop assistant showed us, using his hands, how the plane had crashed into the twin towers. He, too, was laughing.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 3:36:58 PM EDT
'What They Deserved' Once back at the house where we were staying, we started scanning the international channels. Soon came reports of Palestinians celebrating. The BBC reporter in Jerusalem said it was only a tiny minority. Astonished, we asked some moderate Arabs if that was the case. "Nonsense," said one, speaking for many. "Ninety percent of the Arab world believes that Americans got what they deserved." An exaggeration? Rather an understatement. A couple of days later, we headed north to Tripoli, near the Syrian border. On the way, we read that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, who donated blood in front of the cameras, was rejecting any suggestion that his people were rejoicing over the terrorist attack. "It was less than 10 children in Jerusalem," he said. In the bustling souq of Tripoli, we started looking for the Great Mosque, a 1294 building with a distinctive Lombard-style tower. But in that labyrinth, nobody spoke anything but Arabic, which we don't speak. Finally, in a dark shop, we found an old gentleman who knew French. His round white cap showed that he was a devout Muslim. Leaning on his stick, he managed to get on the street and with most exquisite manners gave us directions. Common decency survives all. Once at the Mosque I donned a black chador, but our Lonely Planet guide attracted the attention of a hard-looking bearded guy all the same. "Are you Americans?" he asked in a menacing tone. Our quick denial made him relax. He gave us the green light to go in. But very soon afterward we were again approached by a fat young man. He turned out to be one of the some 350,000 Palestinians who live in Lebanon, unwelcome by most of the population and subject to severe hardships. Hearing we were Italians, first he recited like a prayer names of Italian soccer players. We were relieved at first that he wanted to talk about sports, but he soon moved on to politics and the "events." "My people have been crushed under the heel of American imperialism, which took away our land, massacred our beloved and denied our right to life. But have you seen what happened in New York City? God Almighty has drawn his sword against our enemies. God is great -- Allah u Akbar," he said. I heard these appeals to religion so often that I needed some theological help. "How can God do evil?" I later asked an Arab friend, a businessman with an international background. "According to what I learnt in my catechism, God lets evil happen. He doesn't do it," I said, and he answered: "The Quran has the same teaching, but blood calls for blood." What about compassion? I asked, pointing out that Jesus Christ had offered the other cheek. Isn't Allah also always called the Merciful? "He is, but when a people has been begging for a piece of land for 52 years and it has experienced only bloodshed, what can you expect?" But the victims of the World Trade Center were civilians, I insisted. "In the new intifada, 500 Palestinians have been killed. America didn't give a damn, so why should Muslims care now about those who died in the twin towers? It's hard, but that's the way they see it."
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 3:37:25 PM EDT
I couldn't help it: I kept remembering how a day earlier, in Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder had talked about a clash of civilizations. On Thursday night, in the Christian northern part of Beirut we heard some loud noises. "Probably they are celebrating the attacks," some one told us when we asked. You mean the Maronite Christians are also celebrating? I asked. "Yes, they also feel betrayed by the Americans," came the response. On Friday, the national day of remembrance for the victims in Europe and the U.S., I was relieved to see that the Christian church in the Sahet Aukar district was packed with people holding a candlelight vigil. Less comforting was the thick barrier of soldiers and check points that protected the church. 'Terrorists?' Heliopolis, in the Bekaa Valley, was the Sun City of the ancients. Nowadays it is called Baalbek. Near its lavish temples stands the stronghold of the Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed Shiite Party of God. Along the clean alleys that lead to the Hezbolla's stronghold there are hand-made posters of bearded young men. "They are martyrs," explained a well-dressed, cultivated Arab man who had just gotten out of his Mercedes. "They fought until victory: the withdrawal of Israeli occupants. So they became a model for the all Arab world." Weren't they terrorists? We asked. "Terrorists? What about the Israelis who kill women and babies?" In the seven days we spent in Lebanon, we saw one young Arab woman with teary eyes. "The stories of the victims touched me,", she said, and I began to regain my trust in humanity. Then she added: "But in a way I am also glad, because for once the Americans are experiencing what we in the Middle East go through every single day." Back in Italy, I received a phone call from my friend Gilberto Bazoli, a journalist in Cremona. He told me he witnessed the same reactions among Muslims in the local mosque of that small Lombard city. "They were all on Osama bin Laden side," he said. "One of them told me that they were not even worthy to kiss his toes."
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 3:52:46 PM EDT
Quote from the Arab businessman friend of author-
... but when a people has been begging for a piece of land for 52 years and it has experienced only bloodshed, what can you expect?
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What about their begging for a piece of land for the previous centuries before the UN created tiny Israel? The Seljuk Turks never gave them any! The Ottoman Turks never gave them any! The remaining Arab nations never gave them any either! So they bitch at Israel and at the United States simply because Israelis won't simply gather their belongings and walk into the sea! They just want the land Israel is sitting on top of! Nothing more, nothing less! Eric The(They'llHaveItInHell!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 3:58:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 6:23:05 PM EDT by ARlady]
I used to think that there were some Arabs who felt terrible about it, but now I am starting to realize that all those bastards seem to be glad. The only good [red]***** ****[/red] is a dead one! [50] [red]edited to comply with forum conduct code --ARlady[/red]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:05:58 PM EDT
Very good read, thanks David. I hope everyone will read this, especially those that insist on the belief that only a small minority of the Arab and Muslim world are rejoicing in our suffering...
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:13:34 PM EDT
If true, we really need to reconsider our relationships with the middle nations. We can obtain far more oil from the North American continent and increase R&D into alternative energy sources. There is no doubt in my mind that if we want that we can virtually eliminate our use of fossil fuels within 50 years. We have access to more than enough oil and coal to make it 50 yrs. Imagine the effect on the enemy economies. Second, we need to tighten our border security tremendously and totally eliminate travel and immigration of those from middle eastern nations and descent. Third, hit our enemies absolutely as hard and fast as we can and then leave. The alternative is to kill everyone their who is our enemy and I'm told that that would be genocide.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:23:21 PM EDT
Would you rather be loved or FEARED?.....I know what gets results and what gets excuses... [pissed]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:27:41 PM EDT
JBR, as per forums conduct code:
1) No racial slurs or comments.
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please edit your post accordingly. thanks.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:36:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 5:38:14 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By ARlady: JBR, as per forums conduct code:
1) No racial slurs or comments.
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please edit your post accordingly. thanks.
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Why should he? They arent American citizens, or even residents. They are cheering the death of American citizens. They deserve death, not name calling, but name calling is all we can do at the moment. Some people may need to demonise people like this in order to harden themselves for the numbers of men, women, and children we may very well wind up killing before this is all over.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:40:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 6:02:03 PM EDT by ARlady]
yes, very good read. but i think it matters little that there are people who are happy at what we got. if they see us as responsible for their problems, it is natural that they will be happy about what has happened to us. and i think it's ludicrous that anyone would expect them to be saddened that their perceived enemy has been struck a blow. what would you expect? what would you do in the same situation if for all of your life you had this enemy and then one day...WHAM!...someone hurts him bad? would you not be pleased? maybe you wouldn't be dancing a jig in the street (someone of you would!), but do not deny that you would be pleased. i don't condone their behavior and it think it sucks. i'm disappointed to find that the joy over what occured has spread that much, that fast, and that deep. but i'm not gonna be upset over what is decidedly a natural reaction to a major blow to one's enemy, real or not. it has little bearing if every freakin' Muslim in this world is glad of what happened. every freakin' Muslim didn't plan, finance, and implement this action. we don't punish people in America for crimes they might commit just because they share a common trait with someone who did commit a crime. it means we take a longer, harder look at who's in our country. it means we take a longer, harder look at who are our friends around the world. but it doesn't mean that we target someone just because they don't like us. flame-proof suit on.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:41:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Originally Posted By ARlady: JBR, as per forums conduct code:
1) No racial slurs or comments.
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please edit your post accordingly. thanks.
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Why should he? They arent American citizens, or even residents. They are cheering the death of American citizens. They deserve death, not name calling, but name calling is all we can do at the moment. Some people may need to demonise people like this in order to harden themselves for the numbers of men, women, and children we may very well wind up killing before this is all over.
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demonize somewhere else then. not my rules. take it up with Goatboy or someone else if you don't like the rules. i don't make them. but i do enforce them. sorry!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:47:42 PM EDT
Goat Boy has already heard from me the very night he began this stupidity. I will protest this everytime someone tries to excercise this false morality. Untill it stops. Nothing personal to you ARLady. If they want to shut the board down fine. They own it, its their right.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 6:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 4:47:11 AM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:19:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 7:21:23 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
It will help prove what the anti's are trying to sell though. [RED]That gun owners are red neck racists.[/RED]
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NOW ITS PERSONAL, AND I DEMAND A APOLOGY The hypocracy shown by the AR15.com staff boggles the mind. If you dont agree with them you are a redneck racist- which is itself a racist stereotype put foreward against white men. I am pretty sure gun control in America died on September 11th, we should not be worrying about what they think.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:35:55 PM EDT
So Striker, Not 90, 95 or even 99 % but 100 percent proof, well if that is the way it should be then the Taliban are correct in not turning over Bin Laden. In no way has our government proved to that degree of certainty that bin Laden is the one who is responsible for committing that act of war and maybe never will be able to. But this attitude about racial slurs is getting completely out of control. Any one who reads my posts knows that I do not use racial slurs they are just not my style. But this is war people and in times of war it is normal to use anything to demonize the enemy including racial slurs and caricatures of the enemy. What the administrators and Mods need to do is to check up on the first and second World Wars and take a look at some of the racial caricatures of both the Germans and Japanese that were in the newspapers and on posters at those times in our history. Also no one used the proper names and terms for the Germans and Japanese. The Germans were Krauts and the Japanese were J*ps and N*ps. That is a part of going to war, so according to the mods it is ok to nuke people but don’t insult them. I guess we were lucky that they only took out the WTC and killed all those people but at least they did not call us all those bad names. I was brought up that “Sticks And Stones May Break My Bones But Names Will Never Hurt Me” Well now it seems that words alone are worse then punching some one in the face. By the way every time someone on this forum and anywhere else gets all bent out of shape over a stupid word, I feel more anger against the person who complains about the word and I hate the minority that the word refers to even more, since I blame them for the loss of my freedom of speech. I was not raised as a racist and I am only becoming a racist because of all the reverse discrimination and of the loss of freedom of speech in the name of sensitivity toward the feelings of the minorities I have witnessed in my life. Spike Lee said that Charlton Heston Should be shoot with a 44 Bulldog and that is ok with everyone but if I or anyone else call him a filthy scummy Ni**er than I am the bad guy. I read in another forum that a man went to the defense of his wife who was being attacked by a black man. And in the process of defending his wife he called the black man a NI**er. Well his wife’s assailant was not charged with anything but the man who went to the defense of his wife was charged with a hate crime for calling his wife’s attacker a ni**er. Now am I the only one who sees the total stupidity in this, since it seems that the Administrators and Mods of this site are doing the same thing but do not have the power to arrest anyone all they can do is lock treads and ban people from posting. Will I be banned for this post like happened to another person who did not use any slurs but complained about this forum being too PC let see what happens. I had a life before I found this forum and I will have a life after this forum. This whole world has gone insane and maybe this is why our Lord will be returning in about 10 years.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:42:48 PM EDT
Thanks for the informative post, DavidC. It all goes back to the basic rule that the only way to deal with these type people is to act in such a way that they quake in thier boots at the mention of the USA. I still believe that our response should be a nuclear attack on the capitol cities of the 5 worst anti-western arab nations. The following morning the State Dept should announce that "the US will no longer tolerate terrorism." Bet the point would be well taken and they would police their own ranks from then on. This is ruthless but we cannot deal with these countries as if they are civilized and get results. It's us or them, fact of life, they brought this to us.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:00:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 8:28:43 PM EDT by ARlady]
I LOVE THIS COUNTRY !!! We stand attacked and totally innocent people are killed. And even now after the bloodshed the SON OF THE BITCHES COMMUNISTS BASTARDS are playing Political Corectness feeling ofended by name calling against the enemy. Read this and if you dont like it KISS MY AMERICAN ASS ! [red]how about i just remove what doesn't belong ACCORDING TO THE RULES and we'll call it even, heh? --ARlady[/red]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:09:19 PM EDT
There are a lot of people here who are under the misapprehension that only a European mind can generate racism. This is bull shit. The crowds in Lebenon, reported up at the top of this thread, were cheering because they were enjoying the thought of Europeans, and Jews, and Asians and Hindus were dying in thousands. Because they were neither Muslim or Arab or other middle eastern ethnicity. This is already a racialised conflict. By THEM. Why do you think the terrorists dont recruit European Muslims like Albainians, Bosnians, or Montenegrins? Surely, since Europeans are so racist, it would be easier to slip a blond, blue eyed terrorist through security? Because to them they arent "real muslims" because they are not Arab or Persian or other middle eastern ethnicity. They are not Brown skinned and dark haired and they dont speek a semetic language. Do you think that they dont have choice comments for us? What do you think they call Europeans and Jews? And about the self censorship, do you think you are earning brownie points with some big nobodaddy in the sky by not calling you enemy certain names? This is what I was calling false morality, its ok to call for killing them in a horrible manner with clusterbombs or napalm but [i]not[/i] to call them "certain names". How does this make sense?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:19:28 PM EDT
Finally, sense comes around. I reserve the right to slur my enemies in any way I see fit.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:27:49 PM EDT
you guys just don't get it do you? you can call anybody any name you want. you just can't do it here. you know the rules. if you don't like them, you are free to leave. but if you choose to stay, you will follow the rules. simple as that.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:37:16 PM EDT
ARLady is ARAB ! Did you see her olive complexion? No wander she is a USA traitor.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:58:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 9:03:12 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By ARlady: you guys just don't get it do you? you can call anybody any name you want. you just can't do it here. you know the rules. if you don't like them, you are free to leave. but if you choose to stay, you will follow the rules. simple as that.
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I know you are just the messenger. Go tell Goat Boy to come down and logically explain why. Fear of "attacks on American Muslims" doesnt cut it, since I dont think anyone here would attack another American citizen and if their were anything we SAY wouldnt stop him- only a bullet would. Is the ISP pressuring them? The AG of the state where they reside? Who? Why? Or are Goat Boy and Ed and Anti amongst those who don't yet understand that world changed a few days ago. Do they still beleve that the MMM's and Sarah Brady are lookiing for a way to "get" us? That this is just a "distraction" and in a few weeks it will all be forgotten and people will still flock to Fineswine and Boxer and their crap? How do you sell gun control now when the greatest single act of terror was just carried out by people with box cutters? Just tell us what your concerns are.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:59:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:05:57 PM EDT
Excuse me, but I happen to be of Arab decent (50% to be exact). Have someone walk up to ME and call me a "USA traitor", and see what happens. [;D] I am just as American as any other. Keep that in mind when you begin attacking your fellow citizens. Thanx
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:06:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sweep: Just in case you guys haven't read it in awhile: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/announcement.html?id=25[/url] Specifically #1 Dacon, you might like to read #4. First and last warning.
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So thats your answer. Your going to take your ball and go home. Right or wrong doesnt matter, you have control of the plug.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:10:13 PM EDT
Im wary of people who place others in "guilt by association". placing all muslims into a category based on their faith to make them enemies is no different then what Hitler did with the jews. All people are individuals and are responsible for their own actions and convictions. if we can treat all muslims as just a collective lump, then you too will be treated the same. I could personally care less for allah, but if muslims were targeted by my fellow citizens for eradication, i would then have no choice but to help them as the White Rose Society did with the jews. The founding fathers warned us about entangling alliances. i am in no way excusing the actions of terrorists, espicially since they consider us the great "satan" anyhow. but their level of anger may have been less. Now we have no choice but to fight them or be whipped in the butt by "bullies". this "war" will cost us more than just tax money and lives. we will be confirming these people's fear of our "imperlism". shooting them or nuking them will not change their minds about us. As i have said before, i believe we should terminate all those involved with extreme predjuidice. if we kill bin laden we will only turn him into a maytr. others will rise to take his place. this cycle will go on. genocide or mid-east domination might insue. this will not be a pretty sight. hate breeds hate. i wonder how this will grow? we are not morally superior to the germans. i just hope that we do not follow down that dark path.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:12:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51: So Striker, Not 90, 95 or even 99 % but 100 percent proof, well if that is the way it should be then the Taliban are correct in not turning over Bin Laden. In no way has our government proved to that degree of certainty that bin Laden is the one who is responsible for committing that act of war and maybe never will be able to. But this attitude about racial slurs is getting completely out of control. Any one who reads my posts knows that I do not use racial slurs they are just not my style. But this is war people and in times of war it is normal to use anything to demonize the enemy including racial slurs and caricatures of the enemy. What the administrators and Mods need to do is to check up on the first and second World Wars and take a look at some of the racial caricatures of both the Germans and Japanese that were in the newspapers and on posters at those times in our history. Also no one used the proper names and terms for the Germans and Japanese. The Germans were Krauts and the Japanese were J*ps and N*ps. That is a part of going to war, so according to the mods it is ok to nuke people but don’t insult them. I guess we were lucky that they only took out the WTC and killed all those people but at least they did not call us all those bad names. I was brought up that “Sticks And Stones May Break My Bones But Names Will Never Hurt Me” Well now it seems that words alone are worse then punching some one in the face. By the way every time someone on this forum and anywhere else gets all bent out of shape over a stupid word, I feel more anger against the person who complains about the word and I hate the minority that the word refers to even more, since I blame them for the loss of my freedom of speech. I was not raised as a racist and I am only becoming a racist because of all the reverse discrimination and of the loss of freedom of speech in the name of sensitivity toward the feelings of the minorities I have witnessed in my life. Spike Lee said that Charlton Heston Should be shoot with a 44 Bulldog and that is ok with everyone but if I or anyone else call him a filthy scummy Ni**er than I am the bad guy. I read in another forum that a man went to the defense of his wife who was being attacked by a black man. And in the process of defending his wife he called the black man a NI**er. Well his wife’s assailant was not charged with anything but the man who went to the defense of his wife was charged with a hate crime for calling his wife’s attacker a ni**er. Now am I the only one who sees the total stupidity in this, since it seems that the Administrators and Mods of this site are doing the same thing but do not have the power to arrest anyone all they can do is lock treads and ban people from posting. Will I be banned for this post like happened to another person who did not use any slurs but complained about this forum being too PC let see what happens. I had a life before I found this forum and I will have a life after this forum. This whole world has gone insane and maybe this is why our Lord will be returning in about 10 years.
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i concur. sad but true
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:13:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:14:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dacon: ARLady is ARAB ! Did you see her olive complexion? No wander she is a USA traitor.
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a joke i hope. i have an olive complexion. i am part english/cherokee. all American. give me liberty or death by mob.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:40:01 PM EDT
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=53852
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:42:23 PM EDT
I dont beleave in guilt by association. I do beleave in guilt by [i]acclimation[/i] Those who publicly demonstrated their joy at these attacks were identifying themselves in league with the killers. They WANTED to be seen, they would not have done their celebrating in the streets otherwise. The educated Mulsims living in the West, like Matrix, have got to understand this. There were Moslims on the planes, there were Moslims in the buildngs that were hit. In the eyes of the killers they were NOT Moslims because they were living and working amongst the enemy. In the eyes of those who cheered on the streets in happiness, they were now part of the OTHER, and their lives weren't even worth consideration. All because you were living in peace, if not harmony, with non Muslims and had worked to make a living for yourself and were not living in poverty like them. A poverty that exists because their intolerance for other cultures keeps them from working with the Western world, which is where the money and markets are. As long as a sizeable portion of the Muslim world, and especally the Arab muslim world, sees secularization on the Turkish pattern as betraying Islam there can be no peace. Those people who cheered in Beruit were no more innocent than those Germans who gathered around Nazi party rallys and cheered for Hitler. They aren't guilty because they were ethnically German. They arent guilty caused they cheared. They voted, they gave money to him, they gave consent to his operations. The only Germans who were guiltless were those Hitler condemmned to the camps and silenced.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:54:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:16:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 10:19:26 PM EDT by Stealth]
What's the difference between one of you hating and wanting to kill all Arabs, and an Arab hating and wanting to kill all Americans? I for one entertained the idea of personally cutting the throat of all those that cheered. But no. I say find those that were responsible, find those that funded and supported them, find all those that belong to these organizations and destroy them. As for those that cheered.... screw 'em. Let them live in fear after we take out the rest. I'd rather not become my enemy. I'd rather not be blinded by rage,... only guided by it. The rules and laws didn't change on Sept 11th, but some here have. Some for the better, some not. Some will always be ignorant.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:18:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: There are a lot of people here who are under the misapprehension that only a European mind can generate racism. This is bull shit. ... This is already a racialised conflict. By THEM. Why do you think the terrorists dont recruit European Muslims like Albainians, Bosnians, or Montenegrins? ...Do you think that they dont have choice comments for us? What do you think they call Europeans and Jews? ...
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To date, there have been over 250 accounts of attacks on Indians, Arabs, etc. from the US. This is embarassing. As I watch this kind of news - from what has become a heavily armed compound here on the other side of the world - I am embarassed in trying to explain this to non-Americans that see this with me. I mean, are American racists so stupid they don't even know which race they supposedly hate? HELLO! Indians are not Arab, nor are they Muslim. With all of this idiocy going on, Goatboy is being perfectly reasonable to make sure no one uses words that can have blanket / collective meanings. OK, so you have presented a good argument that shows how Arab Muslims that perpetuate hate are racists. No shit! But how does that explain someone who wants to use the same brush you paint Arabs with to cover all Muslims. You've just admitted that non-arab Muslims are not to be associated with these terrorists. If you open your mind a bit more you will find that there are many Arabs who will also fit in the "not real Muslim" category in the minds of these wackos. Yes these folks are extremists and murderers. Yes, there extremist beliefs are definitely brought on my a cultural, racial, and religious bias. But tell me, how does adopting similar racist beliefs make you right? I got this in the mail today from the Hackworth mailing list, I feel it is appropriate: Most Of US Most of us Republicans are not Ted Bundy Most of us Democrats are not John Wayne Gacy Most of us Christians are not abortion clinic worker killers Most of us Jews are not David Berkowitz Most of us Catholics are not child-molesters Most of us Muslims are not Osama bin Laden Most of us Beatle lovers are not Mark Chapman Nor Jodie Foster fans John Hinckley, Junior Most of us Congresspeople are not intern abusers Most of us Environmentalists are not the Unabomber Most of us Germans are not Hitler's Nazis Most of us Marines are not Lee Harvey Oswald Most of us Arabs are not Ramzi Ahmed Yousef Most of us Whites are not Jeffrey Dahmer Most of us Blacks are not Wayne Williams (Atlanta) Most of us Canadians are not Bernardo & Holmolka Most of us Hispanics are not the Night Stalker Nor Italians the Boston Strangler Most of us Former Hippies are not Charles Manson Most of us Boomers are not Norman John Collins ("Co-ed Killer" who murdered my high school class secretary among unknown others) Most of us Football players are not woman- beaters Most of us Desert Storm Veterans are not Timothy McVeigh ...And most of us Angels are not Lucifer
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:12:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2001 11:15:05 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Adam, Sweep I have been up and down this thread, and cannot find any place where a American Citizen was racially slurred. JBR's post was obviously a reply do DavidC's. Referring to the crowds in Beiruit. And I, to the best of my knowledge, have never used a racial slur myself here. It is always a empty gesture, doubly so in this case. JBR was venting his anger, I did the same thing myself a few days ago when I threatend to bust some troll in the chops. I know that is a big no no here but I did it and sent it on the way before I could think about it. Do not EVEN try to lable me a racist because I was sympathetic to JBR's frustration. Just do a search of my past posts, my stands speek for themsleves. And this is why I got so ticked off at the way the moderators were handling this thread, by coming in and writing posts scolding people you were insinuating that people were somthing more sinsiter than just angry. Especally since it isnt going to end tomorrow or next week. Events are still unfolding, there are going to be more and more new revilations that are going to incite more angry reactions for a LOONG time to come. Adam, I simply do not beleve that racial slurs were responsible for 250 attacks against Muslim Americans, or people thought to be Muslims. What is responsible is the belief had by some that the your race is more important than all other considerations- and their projection of that belief onto other groups. The men who were responsible for putting the Japanese in camps beleved that their protection of the white race was above their duty to the US. They projected that beleif onto the Japanese, and assumed therefore that ethnic Japanese in this country would also have loyalty first to their race. The man who shot the Sikh grocer here in Mesa also held those beleifs, he is sitting in jail tonight with a firm belief that no white man will vote him guilty. Words arent going to change his belief, they were not responsible for him going out and comitting the murder in the first place. He is a bigot, was a bigot before Sept. 11, and will be one untill the day the poisons flow into his veins now. He was looking for a chance to strike a non-white with- in his mind- impunity, and he thought that this would be it. He was very wrong.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:52:19 PM EDT
Great, you guys got me so upset with this argument that I am too wound up to sleep! ARE YOU ALL HAPPY NOW!! You are all FIRED!!!!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:53:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Adam, Sweep ...Do not EVEN try to lable me a racist because I was sympathetic to JBR's frustration. Just do a search of my past posts, my stands speek for themsleves. ...
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I'm sorry if I came off a bit abrasive. I've been locked on this camp for 9 days now with no alcohol allowed. Sorry if I sounded like I was accusing you of racism. I wasn't. The point I was trying to make is that when people use terms like we are discussing, EVEN IF THEY know IN THEIR MIND that they are referring to just a specific group of people, there are a lot of idiots out there who will interpret that incorrectly and use those words to help solidify their collectivist / racist belief system. I think we can all agree on that. That idiot who killed the indian Gas Station guy probably heard planty of slurs that served only to help convince him he could get away with murder. I've spent a lot of time with Arabs - most of that time in Kuwait (I am not even counting the Americanized, english speaking Americans of Arab descent I have served alongside) and while some I can picture cheering for or at least sympathizing with the terrorists. There are many who I just cannot believe would do that. Heck, I knew one guy that had spent some time in Texas and proudly displayed his old TX license plate on his POV through the back window. I always got the feeling this guy would sneak back to the US in my luggage if I wasn't careful. I don't know the truth about what happened in Lebanon - but I know the problem with trying to apply any broad label to a people as diverse as Arabs. They have been fighting and disagreeing with each other for their entire history. I just can't fathom a universal hatred for the US. If you are a liberal as your name implies, maybe you understand better than I could. After all, it is liberals who refer to such non-things as "Native American culture," "African Culture," and "European Culture." where all I see is a plethora of different, very distinct, cultures. I've never been good at labelling people.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 12:45:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 12:57:48 AM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Well actually I am a real liberal, not one who takes it as his political party and feels that he has to do what all the others who say they are liberals do. And I am also by training a historian, which alters the perspective a bit. What I learned some years ago, and was a revilaton to me, was that racism was a invention and a fairly new one at that. Created for the purpose of supporting slavery, which was considered vital to the economies of the various coloinal powers. To make a LOOONG story short, racism exists soly because we treat people differently. So I make it a point to treat everyone exactly the same. And unlike some I practice what i preach. This has caused me not a little difficulty, as I am often thought to be callous to minorities. I am not, I just dont like, and try not to practice, the idea of dividing people into minorities to begin with. I try, as much as the rest of the world will allow me, to consider everyone as Americans. Its not that I am blind to descrimination, its just that someone has to take the next step and get beyond throwing descrimination lawsuts at each other. The masses of the Arab world are becoming unified against the US because our huge cultural presance. Because of our consumer merchandise, our cars, our movies and TV. They have a lot to target and it gives them the unity that you pointed out they were lacking. And there is a big difference between Kuwait and the rest of the Arab world, Kuwait is little, it is very wealthy, and it knows it owes its existance to the United States. Obviously their reaction is going to be different to that of the states that border Israel. Just a day or two ago Fox News brought on a scholar as one of their guests to answer the question "Why are we so hated". And he quoted some things about the Islamic world as a whole, including India and Indoniesa et al, not just the mid eastern countries which house only a minority of the Islamic population, that the UN had gathered. In the Islamic world as a whole half the male population is under 18, 60 to 70 percent are purpetually unemployed. Most Islamic countries do not have working public schools, education is conducted by local mullahs and consists mosly of learning to read and write the Koran. Obviously now things are different in the urban areas of secular Turkey, and amongst the native populations of the very wealthy oil states. Most Muslims outside of India and Turkey live under authoritarian governments, with stratified socieites composed of a rich elite that exploits a large impoverished labor force. Urbinization has reached many of these areas, with the result that large populations live in urban slums without prospects. In those same cities a wealthy semi-westernised elite control all political and econoimic power and its this Elite represented by the Assads, Mubaraks, and King Abdoullas that the United States and other countries go do great lengths to deal with and to keep in power. Do I sound more like a traditional liberal now?
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 1:13:11 AM EDT
Given this situation its no wonder that extreamist groups find pleanty of people willing to hate the wealthy US. These extreamist groups are the part of the Islamic faith that considers secularization and tolerance of other faiths to be a slipery slope to the abandonment of Islam. This is a long way of saying that people who celebrated the bombings and are protesting American retaliation are not the people you delt with in Kuwait. But they are in fact the people who make up the great bulk of Islamics in the Middle East. And they have declared themselves not our friends, regardless of what their (non-representative) goverments have said. What would change this? In the long run democracy, economic development, birth control, breaking the stranglehold the mullahs have on education. In the short term the extreamist groups must be destroyed first before democratic and economic improvements can begin. This is backwards of normal liberal thinking but there is a reason. The transitional period for these countries would leave them extreamly vulnerable, they would still be poor, they would have democracy but no experience using it. If the extremest groups still exist they could easily hijack the democratic process to put themselves in power, in much the same way as the Communists did at the end of the 1940's to gain control over so many Eastern European countries. Ok, now writing this has calmed me down, I think I can go to sleep now. Hope I havent bored too many people.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 3:09:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stealth: What's the difference between one of you hating and wanting to kill all Arabs, and an Arab hating and wanting to kill all Americans? I for one entertained the idea of personally cutting the throat of all those that cheered. But no. I say find those that were responsible, find those that funded and supported them, find all those that belong to these organizations and destroy them. As for those that cheered.... screw 'em. Let them live in fear after we take out the rest. I'd rather not become my enemy. I'd rather not be blinded by rage,... only guided by it. The rules and laws didn't change on Sept 11th, but some here have. Some for the better, some not. Some will always be ignorant.
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IM WITH THIS GUY
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 3:48:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 4:52:06 AM EDT by Velveeta]
Thank you Striker. *This post edited because it was past its expiration date.*
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 3:56:26 AM EDT
Post from ArmdLbrl -
What I learned some years ago, and was a revilaton to me, was that racism was a invention and a fairly new one at that. Created for the purpose of supporting slavery, which was considered vital to the economies of the various coloinal powers.
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Racism a recent invention? I don't think so. The following is a little referenced clip from the Old Testament - "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman." [i]Numbers[/i], 12:1. At this point the Lord caused leprosy to come upon Miriam, until Moses beged the Lord to restore his sister, and the Lord relented and allowed the leprosy to remain only seven days. Now if that ain't racism, to speak against the miscegenation of your brother, I don't know what is! And seeing as how the date of this occurrence is appproimately 1300 BC, I hardly think that racism is a new sin invented by the slavetraders. Post from Stealth -
As for those that cheered.... screw 'em. Let them live in fear after we take out the rest.
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Yes, indeed, but let them also be the least of our concerns when dealing with Israel. Let them be the recipients of no further American charity. Let them be as a pariah in our world at least! Eric The(Forget?Hell!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 4:43:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 4:45:04 AM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 4:59:33 AM EDT
Striker, I think Americans (and people in general now due to our media) hear we are entitled to free speech and think that includes everywhere and is unconditional. That is not the case. Though people are protected to say [b]almost[/b] anything they wish on public property or their own property their right to “free” speech does not outweigh the rights of an owner of private property in this country. Example (poor as it may be): You may call me a jack@ss all you want on public property but if you call me a jack@ss in my own home I have the right to ask you to leave.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 5:04:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 5:04:20 AM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 5:45:40 AM EDT
Not advocating slurs of anyone, etc. However it might be useful to point out to the the PC bunch in this country that our political correctness is to a large extent to blame for the success of the WTC attack. God forbid that you should ever watch those of middle eastern descent, search them prior to getting on planes or be for enforcing our borders. To even suggest so makes us rascists, etc.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 5:47:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 5:59:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Not advocating slurs of anyone, etc. However it might be useful to point out to the the PC bunch in this country that our political correctness is to a large extent to blame for the success of the WTC attack. God forbid that you should ever watch those of middle eastern descent, search them prior to getting on planes or be for enforcing our borders. To even suggest so makes us rascists, etc.
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And this relates to this board how? Again this is private property. If you wish to use racial slurs you can use other boards or speak out in the park. I do not see how that has to do with political correctness.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:01:23 AM EDT
can someone explain to me what 'racist' means? and how the hell the r.h. and c.j. terms are racist? they are referring to stupid looking hats and what their poor tent-living asses ride on instead of cars not race at all. a person as lily-white as my nordic ass who wore one of those diaper-fanbelt combos I would still call them the r.h. term because those hats are fuckin' DUMB, not any less dumb for me to make fun of him but hey 99% of the text here is just that, dumb. Thats why I like it. I will also make fun of any amish fuggers I see as was done on this board not even a month ago, for letting religion dictate their fashion. not because I hate them or bear ill will toward them, just because they seem to WANT to stand out for mine and everybody else's entertainment. Hacidics are next, so watch it mean words are in the making. Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons better be on the lookout too come to think of it, for stinging words. We are equal opportunity offenders who have no qualms about offending especially when it comes to people who ride around on bikes and come to our doors to disturb us. I haven't even seen anybody use the s.n or d.c terms yet you all should be happy. Anybody who takes my post seriously get a life and go back to your Karl Marx, or bible or torah or koran or harry potter or god guns n rock n roll.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 6:36:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By erickm: can someone explain to me what 'racist' means? and how the hell the r.h. and c.j. terms are racist? they are referring to stupid looking hats and what their poor tent-living asses ride on instead of cars not race at all. a person as lily-white as my nordic ass who wore one of those diaper-fanbelt combos I would still call them the r.h. term because those hats are fuckin' DUMB, not any less dumb for me to make fun of him but hey 99% of the text here is just that, dumb. Thats why I like it. I will also make fun of any amish fuggers I see as was done on this board not even a month ago, for letting religion dictate their fashion. not because I hate them or bear ill will toward them, just because they seem to WANT to stand out for mine and everybody else's entertainment. Hacidics are next, so watch it mean words are in the making. Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons better be on the lookout too come to think of it, for stinging words. We are equal opportunity offenders who have no qualms about offending especially when it comes to people who ride around on bikes and come to our doors to disturb us. I haven't even seen anybody use the s.n or d.c terms yet you all should be happy. Anybody who takes my post seriously get a life and go back to your Karl Marx, or bible or torah or koran or harry potter or god guns n rock n roll.
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You obviously take your posts seriously enough to make them so maybe you should be reading some Harry Potter right now. Now to address your question(?). The term raghead is often used to refer to people who are not wearing “stupid looking hats”. I take that to mean that you are not referring to the hat but to the dress of some people of a similar racial or societal group to the intended target. You may not have noticed but the men who hijacked those planes were not wearing as you say “stupid looking hats”. Does the mean that they were not as you say “r.h.’s”?
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