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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 2/24/2001 10:14:24 PM EDT
this is NOT meant as a flame. i just want some intelligent responses. ok, other than strict range usage, is an AR really that great of a rifle? i mean, i know that all gun enthusiasts (myself included) like to think that one day there will be some ridiculous scenario where we will actually need all the stuff we've been collecting for years. but in any real-life civilian combat situation, wouldnt you rather have an AK than an AR?? more reliable and a more powerful round. who cares if its a few inches less accurate at a 100 yards. last time i checked, the COM on a human was about one foot by two foot, so an AK that shoots 5" groups will be alright. i have a beater MAK-90 that i have NEVER cleaned, and it functions flawlessly. so what im really asking is, asthetics aside, which gun would you really trust to defend your family?
Link Posted: 2/24/2001 10:36:18 PM EDT
I'd have to go with the AR, hands down. ANY well-made rifle will function if it is maintained. You check the oil and the brakes, and all the other things in your car, don't you? The AR, too, can be used for hunting(a lot of guys do it). You couldn't PAY me to go hunting with an AK. And it may not seem like it, but for defense, the 5.56mm rd is much better than 7.62x39mm. In real-world combat, If you can strike from a distance, you stand a much better chance of winning. The AK is just not designed for, nor is it capable of, long range engagement. The AR15 is very capable of engaging targets out to 500yds. Not taken as a flame, either, by the way. Really, though, if you're more confident with an AK, by all means, use it! Me, I've owned both, and am far more confident in my AR.
Link Posted: 2/24/2001 10:52:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2001 11:05:05 PM EDT by uglygun]
I own 3 AR15s and each has proven themselves to be extremely reliable, top notch accuracy and reliability with a round that many police agencies are switching to for CQB type environments over pistol chambering carbines. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=4933#lastPost they discuss the diverse 223Rem ammo one has to choose from for home defense type situations. With the AK, ammo selection becomes pretty limited. About a week ago out at the range with my buddy he and I were chasing around the 8inch steel plates at 400 yards and hitting them about 13 out of 15 times moving back and forth between the two of us, that was with a scope though. With iron sights I was nailing a steel plate squirrel siloutte at 200 yards about 3 out of 7 shots. Where I'm from a long range shot might be just as probable as a short range encounter. Also, I'm just downright "quick" with an AR design. I don't fumble when handling an AR, all the controls I need are put right where I'd want them to be and reloading is lightning quick. Last time I looked at an AK clone I didn't see any sign of a bolt release so your taking your hands off the grip to charge the weapon after every magazine change. I'll always take the AR15 over any of the AK clones.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 12:32:32 AM EDT
I would NOT feel inadequately armed with an AK. And, yes, the 7.62x39 seems attractive for shots under 150 yards. But for me, most AK's leave something to be desired... First (tactical disadvantage), the horrible sights. Second (tactical disadvantage), the horrible sights. Third (not tactically relevant), fit and finish is poor = no pride of ownership. I actually owned an Egyptian Maadi AKM for a short time but sold it, b/c I just couldn't develop any emotion to it. The poorly finished rifle just didn't "grow on me". Other perceived "disadvantages" are the magazine release, no bolt hold-back/release, and noisy selector/safety. These can be overcome with practice. AR mags are easier to release but harder to insert during stress. And, the AK bolt on an empty chamber can be reworked using the [b]support[/b] hand after inserting a fresh mag. Just reach underneath the weapon, grasp the bolt handle with the thumb/forefinger with palm facing the weapon and pull. You don't have to release firing grip. And, some people cure the noisy safety by wrapping fishing line around it. In the unlikely event that I had to actually use a rifle "civilian combat", I would grab my [b]reliable[/b] and clean Bushy Dissipator. Since we're talking about a "civilian" or (in my case) mega-urban scenario, there's no need to bring up sand and mud. If I accidently dropped the Bushy in a pit of lava, I would run home and grab my POS Romanian SKS. If I didn't live in the PRK, I would rush out and buy a good quality AK like the Krebs AK-103 without hesitation. Too bad, there isn't a Galil chambered for 7.62x39. Now, that would solve all of the AK's "disadvantages".
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 1:28:05 AM EDT
yeah, I figured you could reach up with the support hand and work the bolt with it similar to how one palms a shell into the ejection port of a shotgun, it still is nowhere near as fast as I am with an AR though. I've practiced doing AR magazine reloads till I'm blue in the face. It takes me about as long to reload an AR as it does to reload a pistol, for me it's just instinctual. The AR is just one smoking speed machine in my opinion. I hear the AUG guys really love their rifles but after shooting them they seem quick up until the time you need to reload and then to me it gets akward. I could shoot my iron sighted AR15 better than I could that AUG too, the donut reticle didn't impress me much on the AUG.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 5:32:38 AM EDT
Not only do you have the advantages listed above, but you also have more choices in the AR you can have a long range upper and a short range upper, by switching uppers you can match your rifle to the situation you expect to encounter, effectively having 2 rifles in 1.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 5:49:31 AM EDT
In order to say what is a better rifle is to ask what you will be using it for. I don't believe the majority of AR owners have an AR because they think a war is going to break out, but because an AR is a very accurate rifle and perfect for target shooting. An AK which may be a great weapon in war, is not the best rifle for sport or hunting in what most rifle owners do.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 6:02:05 AM EDT
The (2) most overated firearms are the AR-15 & the 1911. Most bolts out of the box are more accurate than the AR, and fire a more potent round. (I think most people just like its looks) The 1911 is a ninety year old design which was obsolete even in the 50's. (I guess you can fool most of the people most of the time) I have both & they are fun to shoot, but there are much better choices out there.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 6:15:27 AM EDT
I was (pushed by a friend) about to buy a Feg59 (the Hungarian version of the AK47 in 7,62 x 39) instead of the unfindable Colt AR15 sporter 2 HBar. The Feg59 cost about half of a AR15 and anyway is an assault rifle (oops... is a sporter utility rifly of military style...). The I stuck in the problem of reloading (mandatory in my country... if you want to shoot a lot...) and I start to consider that a single Speer ball in .311 for the AK47 cost almost like a commercial cartridge... Balls for AR15, instead, especially the ones in 55 grs., are cheap and easy to find. So 1) I can shoot a lot spending few money with the AR15; 2) In case of SHTF scenario, I can use the rouds that my government will supply to me and, in the meanwhile, to use my reserves of powder, balls and cases... I chose the AR15....
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 6:38:12 AM EDT
If I wanted an AK I would have bought an AK. Evidently, not cleaning their weapons is a common AK owner trait so it is nice that the AK is available. This is not a flame. [pyro]
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 7:45:18 AM EDT
i dont know how someone can say 7.62by39 is a better combat round than .223. theirs a reason the US adopted the m16 with .223. if in doubt just read the "lead snowstorm" string. and the ak may only lose a few inches at 100yds but howabouts at 200+
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 7:58:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2001 8:08:46 AM EDT by Waldo]
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 8:05:10 AM EDT
Real usefullness? The stray dog that got in with my goats this morning found out how useful my Bushmaster is...
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 8:19:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SS109: The (2) most overated firearms are the AR-15 & the 1911.
View Quote
*This* coming from a guy who's handle is SS109? :-)
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 8:21:00 AM EDT
Alright WALDO! [sniper]
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 8:23:47 AM EDT
AR for strict range use only?!? Somebody better tell our military quick before somebody gets hurt! Methinks you know not of what you speak, there's lots of opinions and myths on the subject and you shouldn't believe all of them. Would I trust my AR in a SHTF fantasy nightmare? Hell yes!!! If I told you my AR will shoot 500 rounds at the range with no jams you wouldn't believe it, so I'm not sure why I type it. Dude, unless I drag an ammo box around I can't carry more than 500 rounds on me anyway, so 500 flawless shots is "good enough" for me. A problem with the 7.62x39 is that it usually doesn't make that devastating energy dump like a 5.56 can, a 7.62x39 (often) will just make a big hole and pass through- a .223 as it swaps ends and fragments TEARS an ugly wound (but NOT always). The 7.62x39 doesn't shoot as flat as the 5.56 so you have to hold over on longer shots, with the AR it's just point and shoot. The great Kakashnikov admired the 5.56, I think he was suprised (as was Stoner) just how effective that little round can really be. ARs are reliable and rugged. I know you don't want to believe it, that's your business...
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 9:15:40 AM EDT
Camshaft, I use my AR for hunting the little deer here in Ca and love to shoot squirrels with it. About the only thing in Ca I wouldnt take it out to hunt is pigs although I know guys who have killed them with a .223.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 12:03:15 PM EDT
Another thing about the AR15-you can make it YOUR AR15. If you get an AK, it's just like everybody elses' AK. But, with an AR, you can make it just the way YOU want it. If a bunch of guys with AKs go to the range, everyones' rifle looks the same, but when a bunch of AR owners go to the range, you can tell whos' rifle is whos' instantly. SS109, most bolt guns are NOT more accurate as my 14.5 inch barreled Bushmaster, which will group under 1 inch at 100 yds all day long.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 12:28:49 PM EDT
Man Mexicans use AK's. nuf' said...
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 1:57:35 PM EDT
I'll tell you why I think the AR is a good choice. Number one the entire system is lighter, ammo, gun, magazine. Two, more accurate and just as lethal (maybe more so). Three, a modular system that can be configured a variety of ways all with better sighting options than an AK. Also, since we are not a third world country and have access to fine hand tools, the AR can be maintained in meticulous order.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 2:26:41 PM EDT
thanks for the replies all. this was not meant as a "ak vs ar" thread, just which gun would you prefer in a civilian combat scenario. if an AR is 99% reliable, then my AK is 99.9% reliable. and like i said, an AK is accurate enough to kill a man at reaslistic distances. i want to get an AR, i will buy one this summer.
Link Posted: 2/25/2001 2:51:17 PM EDT
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