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Posted: 7/24/2001 12:09:39 PM EDT
For super close range I have my glock and my shotgun. For inside of 50 yards or so I have me AK74, for 50-200 yards I have my 24" AR15. So the only thing I need a .308 for is either long range shooting or shooting through things like glass etc, which is usually long range too. I'm itching to get a FAL but it doesn't seem to be the best rifle to "add" to my collection since I'd take the AK or AR for shorter range and would prefer a "target" rifle for longer range. Am I missing the use of a AR10 or FAL?
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:18:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:23:00 PM EDT
I used to work with a Greek guy who wore a blue helmet in Bosnia in the early 90's, although his commander was an American bird colonel working with NATO. One trick the Serbs used to pull was to tip over those old wooden horse-driven carts, and ambush the guys from behind the cart. My friend and most of his buddies were issued FALs, but some of them had M16s. They all wanted M16s because the FAL and its ammo was a bitch to carry. However, in these ambush situations, only the FAL could punch through the wooden floor of those carts and take out the Serbs. The M16 round fragmented, and although it pierced the floor of the cart, by that time there wasn't enough bullet mass left to do any damage. It's something to think about.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:24:22 PM EDT
You mean you bought an AR prior to an M1A or M1? [:O] What were you thinking!?!?
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:24:52 PM EDT
You've got a .223, so a .308 is logical next. An M1 is fine and cheap but has a failure to feed every 8 rounds. I got several AR-10s and am happy with all of them except that there are too many choices. If you want a FAL or a G3 you should stick with an original like a Springfield or HK, not a rebuild. You can never have too many.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:34:32 PM EDT
That's interesting. It seems like the .308 semi might be a smarter all around choice because it has more killing power and full auto is not an option which is the M16s biggest plus. But you do have to concider the weight and accuracy issues because the AR15 is much lighter and more accurate. It seems like you need a little bit of everything if the SHTF. In Vietnam I'd take the M16, in Iraq I'd want a FAL. What is the best for Urban warfare?
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:34:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By T2: An M1 is fine and cheap but has a failure to feed every 8 rounds
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Very funny, the 'failure to feed every 8 rounds'. Never heard it quite put that way. I have 3 Garands for any long distance work, 1 with a match barrel and scope on a Springfield. I also have a 30-06 bolt heavy barrel to go along with them (same ammo).
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:41:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By T2: You've got a .223, so a .308 is logical next. An M1 is fine and cheap but has a failure to feed every 8 rounds. I got several AR-10s and am happy with all of them except that there are too many choices. If you want a FAL or a G3 you should stick with an original like a Springfield or HK, not a rebuild. You can never have too many.
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As to that fail to fire on the Garand, I thought as you do a long time ago. Untill I got started in service rifle competition and was "schooled" in the art of the garand. I watched in amazement as these older gentlemen fired round after round and when that clip came flying out, pull it down shove another in and right back on target. I even watched a demonstration one day at the range where 2 guys tried to see how quickly and accurately they could put lead down range. bottom line they both finished about the same time, with the edge going to the M1A, but not by much and when the M1A was out of its 20 the garand still had 4 more to go !!! practice and training are what makes any gun deadly. I,ll take the Garand in 30.06 thank you... my.02 [x]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:53:13 PM EDT
CRIPES,YES! You do need a semi.308. I hemmed and hawed about it until the day my cousin and I sighted in his mini14. One round was deflected by tumbleweed and missed the rest of the group by a good 6". The weed was about 8' in front of the target. Tumbleweeds ain't exactly what we all consider hard cover. With .308 things fall down. After a demonstration and side by side comparison with the M1A, all my friends have traded up. NOTE: .50BigMuthaf**kinGun would really be the long range choice, but in a SHTF, it's more like a crew served weapon.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 12:57:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: For super close range I have my glock and my shotgun. For inside of 50 yards or so I have me AK74, for 50-200 yards I have my 24" AR15. So the only thing I need a .308 for is either long range shooting or shooting through things like glass etc, which is usually long range too. I'm itching to get a FAL but it doesn't seem to be the best rifle to "add" to my collection since I'd take the AK or AR for shorter range and would prefer a "target" rifle for longer range. Am I missing the use of a AR10 or FAL?
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Almost sounds like you're going golfing. Just hire a caddy. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:01:09 PM EDT
Actually, one or more folks [b]have[/b] suggested carrying multiple firearms for whatever role they envision. I'm curious though; it seems like ammunition weight is a concern to many people. Unless you're a soldier required to cover a lot of ground, I wouldn't think weight would be a factor. The much discussed SHTF scenario seems to involve people vacating their homes and fleeing on foot through the forest. Anytime my friends talk about SHTF situations, they usually involve my friends saying they'd head over to my house (which is fine; I'll supply the hardware, they can bring the food and water).
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:20:00 PM EDT
Anyone here have a Remington 700 LTR? I've been thinking about this gun for a while. I know its not semi, but I'm thinking about getting a bolt gun for long range shooting. -bricklayer
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:22:55 PM EDT
You HAVE TO! Just for the bueaty of them! Here is one of mine done by Rich@CGW [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/013/Uz/zu/vJ/xx99285.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:42:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wadman: Anytime my friends talk about SHTF situations, they usually involve my friends saying they'd head over to my house (which is fine; I'll supply the hardware, they can bring the food and water).
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That's what my friends say too, but in a real SHTF situation, staying in a house would make it much easier for the enemy to find, surround, and blow yer ass up. My thoughts are to take what you need and get mobile. In which case the weight of the rifle and ammo do come into play. I've asked my non-USMC friends what they would take in SHTF scenario and they always end up listing about every gun they own, most of which they would throw away before they humped it a mile. I ask my USMC friends what they would take and knowing better than the average civilian they pretty much go with a AR-15/M-16, a handgun and all the ammo they can carry.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:47:15 PM EDT
Twins! I got mine put together by Rich also. 308 yes indeed. Go with an M1A or FAL.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:49:58 PM EDT
I have 2 answers. Should a well-rounded collection include a 7.62 autoloader? I think so. Given your stated SHTF anticipated uses, do you NEED a 7.62? No. Why not? Well, several reasons. Given the human wave fantasy of your percieved needs, you invision a SHTF instead of conventional and far more likely defense of home scenarios. The only armed "resistors" who will survive the first couple days of an "invasion" SHTF scenario are the ones smart enough to frigging run and hide, carrying whatever they think they can carry rapidly, like a .22, maybe a quiet one, primarily for hunting and last ditch defense. You, on the other hand, seem to favor the "Blaze of Glory" version of suicide. That will help the others escape. Given your description, I presume you will pick a "hide" and pick off several "troops" with your new 7.62 as they advance. When they get inside 200 yards, this perfectly fine weapon will be tossed aside in favor of the AR, which you also carried to the hide, along with plenty of additional mags. At 75 yards, time for a quick AK workout, replaced almost immediately by the trenchbroom, and , finally, the Glock. Save a round for yourself. Who's attacking, the frigging Zulu nation? Ever hear of a mortar, or a helo? BTW, you should pattern that shotgun, you might get 40 yards with the right buck load, and you'd be surprised at how well it groups at 100y with slugs it likes. You might not get to carry that AK into the bush.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 1:58:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2001 1:55:11 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 2:01:57 PM EDT
Yes!!! [img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=10577068&p=46196521[/img]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 2:05:24 PM EDT
I believe you are asking yourself the wrong question. It is not "do I need a 7.62?", the question should be, "Do I Want a 7.62". Of course you do! I used to try to rationalize my firearm purchases, I ran out of rationalizations. Now I just decide weather or not I really want one or not. guns762
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 2:10:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2001 2:09:27 PM EDT by Wadman]
Maybe we should define the term "REAL SHTF?" The ones I recall seeing on the news are riots, blackouts, and natural disasters. Riots can have many causes. They can be racially motivated such as the LA riots after the Rodney King case. Or they can be after sporting events such as after the Chicago Bulls first championship. In both cases, if your home or business were threatened, would you abandon either? Or would you hunker down and keep the mob away? Blackouts would have to take an extended time for civil unrest to unravel our society. Certainly the impoverished areas would go first. Again, are you going to cut and run? Are you going to leave your home and belongings for a mob to ransack? Natural disasters are the most probable. Hurricanes are predicted to become worse as are tornadoes. When Florida was hit several years ago, people sat outside armed and protecting their property. It seems like the only SHTF scenario you guys consider is one where a platoon of troops approach your house looking to vanquish you. I won't make guesses about your training or expertise, but I'm just Joe average civilian. Were such a thing to happen to me, I can put up a good fight, maybe bounce a few rounds off the APC, but I'm pretty much toast. A lot, if not most of you probably live near dense urban centers. As the tracks roll toward your apartment, where are you running off to? The 7-11? Edited because I hate typos.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 2:19:50 PM EDT
I agree with most of these guys, I bought an HK91 2 weeks ago, I now realize how wimpy a .223 really is, dont get me wrong a .223 has its place, but for SHTF senerio I'll take the .308.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 2:23:38 PM EDT
citadelgrad87,that pretty much sums it all up.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 3:06:43 PM EDT
Too many different SHTF scenarios, I guess I was thinking more along the lines of Red Dawn, invading force and all. Hell LA riots kind of stuff I consider more like the opening of hunting season.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 3:17:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2001 3:48:25 PM EDT by Wadman]
Bobby Vincent, The Red Dawn scenario seems to be the only one people consider. I've seen this on several other boards too. I don't know, maybe it seems the most glamorous? The next time you see such a thread, you should pose two questions to them. 1. How long do they think they'd last against a squad of green conscripts? 2. How long do they think they'd last against a squad of troopers from a mainforce unit of any Western nation? On whatever board you pose those questions, I'm sure some members who claim to be current or ex-military may actually not be lying. To them you should ask how long they think they'd last against a squad of their own buddies. Hell, you can even turn the question around; How long would a single armed civilian last against a squad of Rangers from the 75th (or whatever unit they were with). ========================================================== To be pertinent to the thread topic: [img]http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Wadman/308guns-4.jpg[/img] The answer to the 308 question would be [b]YES[/b]!!!
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 3:43:21 PM EDT
Best buy for the $......A GOOD garand.....or a eagle arms a10........both can be had for 700----800 price range (garand a little cheaper if you look around ) FAL ok but good ones expensive, same for m1a.....PERSONALLY......I`d look serious on the E/A a10....you can trust armalite quality and customer service...[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 3:47:51 PM EDT
Also..down the road, you can buy a matching 243 upper, reasonable, if you want........[:)]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 3:51:02 PM EDT
I have a AR10, it's a great rifle, but magazines are hard to come by. Get a FAL and surplus magazines are all over the place. OSA
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 4:39:12 PM EDT
I cannot permit this prepubescent masturbulatory masterpiece to fade so quickly. BTT! WOLVERINES!!! Wait, does anybody smell gas?
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 4:41:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2001 4:38:48 PM EDT by FrankSquid]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 4:43:52 PM EDT
.308 semis are great--but for most NOT for SHTF(unless you plan to remain stationary or cozied-up in an APC). NEVER underestimate fatigue when on the move. Weight is everything. Hell, if trained professional soldiers constantly seek a lighter weapons system, what does that tell you? .308s are out for any hopes for fast mobility. And as a citizen-soldier, mobility may be the one and only one thing going for ya. I'll take the 5.56 AR and I will make it work for me. OH, and YES I do very much want (to keep) my 7.62 FAL and M1A [:)]
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 4:55:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 5:01:27 PM EDT
Depends on your surroundings. Do you live in the mountains? On the plains? Near the woods? If you live anywhere you might have to take a shot at over 300 yards, yes, get a 308. If you live in an urban area, or enclosed wooded area, you don't need one.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 5:09:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 6:14:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By guns762: I believe you are asking yourself the wrong question. It is not "do I need a 7.62?", the question should be, "Do I Want a 7.62". Of course you do! I used to try to rationalize my firearm purchases, I ran out of rationalizations. Now I just decide weather or not I really want one or not. guns762
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Now this guy has it figured out! Want overides need every time!
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 6:42:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: RikWriter, respectfully disagree. One is MORE likely to need the 7.62's increased penetration abilities in an urban environment, than less. A 7.62 will shoot through a 12" live oak tree. Try that with a 5.56.
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Why would you need to penetrate a live oak in an urban environment? I personally would NOT want penetration in an urban environment...you don't know what's behind a wall or a door. It might be an innocent person.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 6:47:44 PM EDT
I own a couple 308 rifles because I want to own them. Do I need them? Probably not. But I enjoy shooting them so I have them. Regarding a SHTF scenario: I don't worry so much about having to fight off a band of marauding blue hats as I do about needing to deal with urban predators who decide to sojurn into the country in times of trouble (I live about 20 miles north of Phila, PA). During a large blizzard two years ago we had a power outage. Not a big surprise, it's kind of rural where I am (nearest neighbor is 150 yeards) and bad weather tends to bring oon power failure. I have a generator, but with my family in Florida I hadn't bothered to fire it up. It was around 1 AM, I was sitting in the living room with the embers of a fire in the fireplace, listening to the BBC World News on the SW and reading by candle light. I noticed, out through the front windows of the house, a couple of headlight beams pull into the circleat the end of my driveway. I thought perhaps it was one of my neighbors, but then a second SUV pulled up and switched off their lights. Their is no reason for this as their is no curb parking for any of the houses (6 on 18 acres) and I have the shortest driveway at around 130 feet long. Four or five people got out of the first SUV and went back to the second one, which appeared to have the same number of people inside. This is very odd behavior as I live on a private road off the back of a housing development which has about 5 Dead End street signs before you would actually get to my place. When they were still there after ~ 10 minutes, I picked up the phone and called the local PD. They said they would come out, but that they were dealing with a bunch of traffic accidents and didn't have anyone immediately available (there are only 2 -3 officers on at any one time, usually only 1 or two at night. Seven full and part-time total). Since the SUVs and their occupants were still out there (visible in the moon light in the storm) I decided that a little extra firepower was called for (beyond the 1911 I always have available), so I went over to the safe and decided to grab two guns, an AR carbine and a couple of loaded 30 round mags, and an M1 Garand with a couple of enbloc clips of black tip 30-06 (AP). If I had to make use of the firearms, I planned on neither the people nor the vehicles being in any condition to drive off. They milled around at the top of my drive for another 15 minutes or so, then drove off. I still have no idea what they wanted, but the town just south of me had a few break-ins during the black out. And I'm still waiting for the PD to show up. David<
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 6:47:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 7:43:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: RikWriter, I was envisioning a SHTF scenario here, as the thread was headed so. In any other case, your reservations are perfectly valid.
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Well, that depends on what SORT of SHTF scenario we get. I envision the total long-term breakdown of society and/or civil war to be extremely unlikely. However, I think a TEMPORARY breakdown because of riots, natural disaster (remember Hurricane Andrew) etc to be very likely. In such a case, in an urban environment, you would still have to be careful about where your bullets went.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 7:49:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 8:02:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DavidC: During a large blizzard (visible in the moon light in the storm) David<
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You folks over in PA sure have weird blizzards.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 8:13:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 8:18:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 8:50:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MDS: Twins! I got mine put together by Rich also. 308 yes indeed.
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more info please boys. I WANT ONE!
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 8:54:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steve: You HAVE TO! Just for the bueaty of them! Here is one of mine done by Rich@CGW [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/013/Uz/zu/vJ/xx99285.jpg[/img]
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GIMME!
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 9:20:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The Beer Slayer: because if i'm in a situation where i need my .308 or my 5.56 there will be no innocents.
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So you THINK. Recall Hurricane Andrew. Truckloads of looters cruising around the wrecked houses, but innocent people still all around IN those houses. Recall the LA Riots. Crowds of looters running around but also innocent people inside houses and shops and apartments and cars. You may want to rethink your statement.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 9:34:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: That's interesting. It seems like the .308 semi might be a smarter all around choice because it has more killing power and full auto is not an option which is the M16s biggest plus. But you do have to concider the weight and accuracy issues because the AR15 is much lighter and more accurate. It seems like you need a little bit of everything if the SHTF. In Vietnam I'd take the M16, in Iraq I'd want a FAL. What is the best for Urban warfare?
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The weight of a Standard M1A (M14) is 9.2 lb. The weight of a Colt Match Target HBAR (a civilian equivalent of the M16A2) is 8.5 lb. Ever since the AR15 has been modified from its original form, the weight advantage that it HAD over the M14 is now almost gone. It's primary advantage is the lighter weight of the ammo, and larger magazine capacity. In Vietnam you would NOT want to have had an M16 since at that time bores were NOT chrome lined, sights were poor, and the ammo was loaded with a ball type powder that left heavy deposits of calcium carbonate, severely fouling the gas system causing many failures to extract a spent round. Incidently the M16's at that time were NOT issued with a cleaning kit. The Aussies in Vietnam were quite happy with their FAL's as were members of the ROK who were armed with the "obsolete" (but more effective and reliable) M14. The original poster should seriously consider getting either a M1 Garand or a M1A.
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 10:32:43 PM EDT
A question to those who have personal experience: How much 223 ammo can you carry on your person when you are mobile? How much 308 ammo can you carry on your person when you are mobile?
Link Posted: 7/24/2001 10:37:34 PM EDT
700PSS LTR [img]http://www.shadows.com/dave/pss700ltr.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 7/25/2001 3:33:55 AM EDT
If you're serious about your guncollection, no one is whole without a .308 [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Kuiper/weapons.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/25/2001 3:38:02 AM EDT
Get a FAL! When it comes down to cleaning, you will thanks me. They are so easy to strip and clean.
Link Posted: 7/25/2001 5:03:42 AM EDT
Is there some SHTF rule of etiquette I've missed? if you can shoot them at 400 yds you can shoot them at 25 with the M1A. No need to break out the folding tactical wheelbarrow. Someone on another board once called this sort of thing "the Alamo Fantasy" Geez guys. Load up all that stuff you think you need and jog a mile. you'll change your packing list really quick! One guy I talked to thought his basic load was a Glock, 8 mags, an AK, 20 mags, and a Rem 870 with one of those ammo carrier slings with 30 rds of buckshot and slugs. Let's not forget the surplus GI frag vest. All this on a guy who's 30 lbs overweight. If you're being assaulted by more than 3 guys, you're toast. they're going to suppress and flank you, then blow your head off while you're nailed in place by 80 lbs of gear. This isn't some video game. Take one rifle, two spare mags, and use all that extra carrying capacity for food, water and first aid supplies.
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