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Posted: 7/21/2001 9:22:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2001 9:25:47 PM EDT by lbj]
Yeah it may be a bit cerebral, it doesn't come naturally to lbj BUT>>>>> Yep, the background checked, law abiding Citizen of the USA... the ones who identified themselves and legally bought firearms and are are recorded by the UN and our own Government are just barely OK for now. Yes... the UN recently declared "decent housing" a fundamental "Human" Right but your Right to personal self defense just may be suspect. One doesn't need to believe in God or a higher power. No problem. BUT, for political purposes this has profound implications. God Given "inalienable" Rights... preexisting Rights Human Beings have regardless of belief... those "Rights" the Left and the Right of the political spectrum we used to agree on were undeniable. Now they are a simple ruse of lip service which can be changed by at whim. Deny "inalienable" and accept Evolution...I can accept that. But hold onto the "Rights"? How? Deny God is your choice, I dunno you might be correct but consider the political ramifications and whoa! Moral authority flies out the window. How do we as a society make the undeniable Rights of Human Beings recognized by our Constitution as pre existing and a gift which cannot be questioned? How do we with all of science and faith still hold fast and give meaning and overiding power to these Rights? How does the political Right and Left come back together to hold these Truths dear? I believe in God, others do not but how do we insure our commonality, our Decency, our respect of the Individual when a Government or elected Body is free to decide? Where is the control and restraint? Where is the fear and respect to hold them back? What Humans give or accord other Human beings then isn't absolute. I dunno but wake up, I dun care your politics, it never mattered. How can we maintain basic Human Rights? Or has lbj gotten old-fashioned? I gotta know. The Right and Left of this Country have seemingly parted ways. It is personal. It is ideology... it is winning that overrides everything. What can be done to bring a little sense to the self righteous....ON BOTH SIDES!!!! How do we make these our Rights "inalienable" and with the power to withstand any challenge? I dunno but the Conservative and Liberal better come together or all is lost.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 9:52:42 PM EDT
religion should stay out of politics. power is not religious, power is political, ideologies may be grounded in religion, but some are not. if someone believes in socialism but goes to church every day, he is different than the conservative who disagrees and never goes to church. i am conservative, my ethics and morals are grounded in what i think is best for the nation based on principles learned from other great people, not religion. but the socialist who would like to see a paticular amm taken away can be extremely religious. so your statement that morals are reliant upon religion is incorrect. not to mention, we have all known religious people who are extreme hypocrits and history has revealed religious leaders whos brutality was hellish. so, that doesnt wash with me. politics is power, humans governing humans. church is to teach love and peace. they dont belong together. your frustration is understood but dont conclude that a god or gods or goddess is the cure for whatever percieved problems exist in this country.
Link Posted: 7/21/2001 10:05:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2001 11:20:21 PM EDT by lbj]
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Link Posted: 7/21/2001 11:21:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2001 12:57:17 AM EDT by lbj]
Darn man. I will not disagree with you about self righteous religeous Bigots. The printed word is brutal. I believe in God, but I reread my post, it isn't about "God" though I will admit I am NOT the greatest at writing or reading. I agree with you. lbj may be a self righteous pontificating old fool...that's a no brainer but the real question is... the one I meant is: without the old "common" belief" shared, what is another? What is the modern way? Where the heck can you and I on the same side let alone the opposite side share and believe and see a commom "Moral" authority to uphold common belief and prevent our Rights from going away? No critisizism here in general assuming no ill intent. I understand the frustration. But darn it... give lbj just clue. Heck if we agree and believe in firearm rights, tell me how our disagreement can be reconciled and how to reach the other side. Nope, lbj can hold his own. lbj is not a rocket scientist....lbj not smart but darn man, give me some positive input. I am serious and asking a serious question. lbj is not a Bigot and lbj is not particularly religeous, lbj is wrong a lot.... but lbj thinks it funny that the mere fact the God word is posted means those "Believers" cheer, those "non-Believers" hiss. But darn lbj does loves to bring the worst out from both sides. This ain't about my belief, heck it ain't about your belief. This darn thread is about where during 2001 do we find common values? How do we insure thaat there is something larger than ourselves? It doesn't have to be God but I will not apologize for that part. But the point is where do you and I and others turn to for a common shared Absolute? Where will you and I convince the opposition to the 2nd Amenndment is morally wrong? Darn, this question is more cerebral than dense ol' lbj thought. Darn, but I defy anyone here to disagree with my premise about the need for a "univerally" recognized "authority" and the need to find it before it's too late. It may already be too late. But all options and efforts must be tried first. Ya wanna fight? I think you'll be glad I'm with you but only if we exhaust every peaceful option first. Dun rush lbj. Then again, dun push lbj. Dun mess with lbj. lbj wrong a lot but never from lack of effort. ut you will see...it's like your Parent's revenge... like when those old Coots used to tell ya you would never understand unril you get older. I hated it then I hate it now but Darn It!.... since the GCA of 1968, you folks better find that cohesiveness. The future... who knows? But don't waste your time and fail like the "Hippies". Sure, we were gonna change the World. We are average Humans, no better no worse, well intentioned but wrong. Our firearm rights are slipping away but a sea change of public opinion could be just around the corner. Dun give up. Find that commonality. Do something. Try anything prudent I never considered. But find a way to get people you do not like or agree with to share a common value. Do something worthy of the Founding Fathers always referred to here. Do something better than lbj did. Yes succeed where I have failed darn it! Yes do it and admit ol' lbj who is long gone with mold growing on him wa right. Do it cause it is Just. Or get older and be content to say...that old buzzard was right.
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 7:03:18 AM EDT
The term 'human rights' is a sham. "inalienable, God given, rights" as stated in our Constitution means the people are supreme. No God in your life means you have no inalienable rights you only have the state given human rights. Why do you suppose that the Constitution and Bill of Rights has not been adopted by every government in the world. For 225 years the Constitution and Bill of Rights has stood as the preemininent organizational plan. No other document of governence gives the people the freedoms and protections we Americans have. Why didn't the U.N. adopt the "American Plan"? It was the "American Plan" that saved the world during WWII and WWI. Why didn't the countries we saved adopt our system of governance? The Old Testament shows us what happened to Gods' Chosen People when they turned from his laws. Every major religion has in common a "Ten Commandments." Rules for societies to live and prosper in peace. The "American Plan" is "Gods Plan." Deny the existence of God and you deny yourself the rights and protections of the "American Plan."
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 11:25:02 AM EDT
hangfire, you must have not heard a single word i said. lbj, you wanna know how to convince the left to ban together with us bla bla bla...? never happen. its a power struggle, who ever has the power is right. its a republic, not a public opinion pole, work to secure our guys in the majority and you dont have to worry about convincing liberals that you are right. its a mute issue, dont bother trying to convince a liberal that you are right because he will just be doing the same thing to you. they can be your friends, your church mates, your family but politically, we will always be different.
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 12:13:03 PM EDT
Get into Christian Apologetics, convince liberals that Christ was the SOn of God, and then have them read their BIble for moral lessons. Hopefully they(the liberals) will believe somewhere in the process. Then They can see certain unalienble rights. -Chuck
Link Posted: 7/22/2001 1:06:40 PM EDT
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
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I think the key phrase of discussion in this text is the word [b]Creator[/b]. Religious types interpret this to mean God. Your fear is that if someone doesn't believe in God, then the rights described in the document are not inalienable? IMHO this is not a problem because how we got here and who created us is something that many argue. The fact that we are here and have the ability to have this conversation suggests that I have this right. It is not something necessarily given arbitrarily by God, but the mere fact that I am gives me this right. Only the strong will be free. The weak will be subjects. In times of turmoil the strong will lead.
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