Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 7/3/2001 8:55:28 AM EDT
Howdy,I am joining the armed forces later this year.At one point,I was gung ho on being a Marine,now I'm thinking ARMY.I've talked to both,but have more friend who did Army,one who was regular infantry,but he did sniper school,jump school,and all the other cool stuff.I heard the Army is better for the "long run" and I am more interested in the Army's larger opportunities for being a Special Forces guy.My current plan is to go for infantry,then to airborne,then onto Ranger.I was thinking going R.I.P,but my friend (army) told me I would be MUCH better off being airborne first,then Ranger,so I would have the edge over the FNGs.Marines are not completely outta the picture,so anything can happen.Army seems right for me,for the reasons I wanna join the "ground guys" whatever advice/comments you have,I'll be interested to hear em.I know alot of you people have done the deed already.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:12:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 9:11:08 AM EDT by oneshot1kill]
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:14:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 9:46:12 AM EDT by rg00red]
You current plan depends on many variables. You are assuming that you will get accepted and then pass through Ranger school, not that easy. Rangers are the best for a reason, their training program has a near 40% washout rate. Same thing goes for Spec. For. Incidentally you are required to have the approval of your C/O before you can go to any school. Normally they are eager to have Rangers under their command, but if you get a real dick (which happens a LOT) you might not get to do anything cool. I'm not saying these things to be mean or anything, just putting things into perspective. Given the current state of the Army, I wouldn't recommend it. Army has horribly low morale, low captain retention rates (which means that quite a few of the captains and majors are still Army because they couldn't make it in the civilian world, i.e. no marketable skills, poor inter-personal skills etc. NOT the kind of guys you want to commanding you), and significantly laxed recruitment and training standards (meaning your fellow troops won't be all that great either). Marine Corps on the other hand is highest in all regards. Despite raising recruitment standards they have consistently exceeded their recruitment quotas. Actually, Air Force is best from a career point of view (I was a Marine). But if your 2 choices are Army and Marine Corps, go Marines. This is not only coming from an ex-Marine, but somebody who knows and is related to a fair number of soldiers.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:22:00 AM EDT
facinating....sorta sucks to hear all this heat,but I gotta know this stuff.Yes,my plan does depend on variables,but I plan to do my best.I know it sounds corny and big-headed,but I am getting ready,and I think I'll have somewhat of an edge over some of the recruits I may be with.Jeez...any Army guys here?:) Thanks for your comments,all have been noted.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:38:08 AM EDT
Don't think just because your a gun lover,your gun-ho or because you think you are ranger material that you will make it.This is not a flame just trying to help you. I have a friend(E-4)in the 82nd airborne, he has went through ranger school 2 or 3 times and FAILED!!!!!!!He is leaving as soon as his contract is up.He is a gun owner,he comes from a long line of military people and he is pretty tough.He got the ranger school in his contract. A Major in ROTC I know is tabbed(not scrolled) and said it is hell on earth.As a officer,he along with the NCO's trying out,went through the R.O.P. training,I am sure it is hard but I figure that R.I.P. is harder since the e-4's and below are gonna be doing the dirty work.I am not saying officers and NCO's woul'nt but you get the idea. Read up about their training. Little sleep,one meal a day,instructors constantly yelling at you. You will have a great deal of respect for rangers and their training if you have ever try going on virtually no sleep and one MRE a day. You have to have 8 weeks on station before you can qualify for ranger school and a min. of 3 years for SFAS[i think that is the assesment course.] So don't get any delusions of grandure thinking that the DI's will see how cool you are and send you right to Delta training.Not saying you think this but I know of a kid who did,he never enlisted in the end. And in life things don't work out,remeber this. I had a friend who became a marine with the recon thing in his contract.He never made it to the school.WHY??? Because he banged up his knee in the crucible and it was a per. injury. He is now in a MOS that he never wanted doing stuff to him that is boring.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:44:03 AM EDT
"Any army guys out there?" I am in Army ROTC.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:47:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 10:07:04 AM EDT by Sukebe]
"Once a Marine, always is a Marine". The Marine Corps will make you a part of something much larger than yourself. Marine boot camp stresses indoctrination into a brotherhood that goes back 226 years. You will learn its history, customs and traditions like they were those of your own family. In a sense once you become a Marine they are your family history , customs and traditions. The Corps teaches all Marines pride in simply being a Marine. Other services teach it within individual units. You will hear an Army Ranger say " I am a Ranger" not I am a soldier. You will hear a Marine in recon or a cook say " I am a Marine". It is the overall organizational pride that's sets the Marine Corps above all others. Forget that Army of one B.S. The Corps is a team, a family. Marine recon is as well trained as Army Rangers and Navy SEALs. If you have to go infantry do it with style. The Corps is leading the way in modern war fighting. The Army is now lightening up its heavy units to be more mobile and agile to fight todays small wars and low intensity conflicts. The Marine Corps literally wrote the book on "Small Wars" back in the 20's and has been light and mobile throughout its history. A Marine infantry MOS opens doors to many other opportunities within the Corps. I your seriously considering being a lifer then infantry is the way to start. Don't plan on retiring from the infantry though, you will be old before your time. It can be a very hard life. Good luck with whatever decision you make. All that being said I have to add my final advise. Don't serve. Why should you risk your ass so that the wealthy and privileged won't have to. Bring back the draft and no college deferments I say.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:48:44 AM EDT
ARMY = Ain't Ready for Marines Yet [(:)] (Just kidding, dogfaces!) Nomad, Here are some questions to ask yourself: 1) Are you planning to make a career out of the military? 2) Are you planning to get married in the next few years? 3) How much is your recruiter willing to put [b]in writing[/b], in your [b]enlistment contract[/b]? 4) Do you have a problem with authority figures? 5) How do you feel about making things really, really, really clean? 6) Three years from now, when you're slipping down a muddy hill in the dark with a hundred pounds of gear strapped on and no feeling in your fingers, how much will you regret not joining the Air Force instead?
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:53:24 AM EDT
OK--I guess I'm an "Army guy". Of course my Army days were about 40 years ago, so I can't stand as an expert on current matters, but I'd still recommend the Army for several practical reasons. First, being a much larger outfit, you've got more opportunities for advancement, particularly in the specialized outfits you're interested in. I'd go Airborne first (I'm an old 82nd guy). When you get thru jump school, if you show up as being as sharp as you believe you are, you'll probably be invited to volunteer for one of the specialized units; either Ranger, SF, or whatever other outfits they've come up with, and even if they don't you can still apply, having acquired some knowledge by that time of what kind of outfit is most likely to interest you. Don't get me wrong, the Marines are a fine bunch; at least the enlisted guys are. I just think there's more places you can go in the Army. In the Marines, you're pretty much either Recon, or ordinary Gyrene(tho that ain't a bad thing to be either). What ever you decide, good luck.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:58:34 AM EDT
My 20 year old son was interested in the military two years ago. I discouraged him since Clinton was still in power and had done a lot of damage to our military. I didn't want him serving in some "peace keeping" force. I served in the Army. There was nothing glamourous about it. You have my respect for wanting to serve your country. My best to you. Times may have changed since I was in, but keep one thing in mind. Some recruiters lie. If it's not in writing it will not happen. You may end up doing something you hate. When I was a kid I wanted to be a Marine. Sometimes I wish I had done it. Good luck. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 10:18:05 AM EDT
Ever thought of doing reserve or guard for a couple years then going active??? What ever you do listen to me on this one below. Whatever you do talk to ex-mil. and current military people.Get all the advice and opinions you can,you will have to determin what is good and bad but get alot of different point of views Also try to visit a military base,there are rangers stationed in washington,can't remember base. And at Savahnah,Georgia,go see if you can talk to some off- duty rangers.Some might blow you off,some might call you a wanna-be,but in my experiance some will give good advise to you. Remeber get peoples opinions and visit a base to see what it is like to be active duty.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 10:21:53 AM EDT
I spent a little over 12 years in the army (got out in Dec 98) and for someone who started working his way up the ranks during the Reagan years when you got [b]everything[/b] you needed, the last 4 or 5 years were kinda hard to take. Morale WAS low, and while I think relaxed standards in basic training were part of the reason, the other part was officers and NCOs at platoon/company level had a hard time coming up with training that was applicable to a real-world mission - we didn't have one anymore, besides "peacekeeping" in lands where "peace" meant both sides were angry at you for interrupting their thousand-year fight. Common Task Training - the core of a soldier's knowledge - is very important, but you can only train on first aid, chemical warfare, or weapons cleaning for so long before you reach point of diminishing returns. We didn't have enough money to keep our vehicles operational, so often as not when we went out to the field you'd spend as much time working on the vehicle as you would putting theoretical rounds downrange. Plus, add to that the fact that field time was drastically cut in both length and frequency, and you can see why soldiers began to get bored (the worst thing for a soldier is boredom.) As an NCO it was my job to keep my soldiers trained, but sometimes my morale would keep me from doing that the best I could. "Hip pocket training" - impromptu training sesions used to fill up empty space in the day - was often a good idea that got brushed off and replaced with "you guys take off till 430, and STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE BARRACKS!" Again, back in the "old days" your sergeant could gather everyone up and head out to the woods for an hour or so to train his troops on map reading, field-expedient direction finding, etc, and not have to answer to anyone unless he neglected to finish another mission first, but nowadays you have to fill out a memorandum of training 6 weeks out, get it approved by everyone in your company or battery chain of command, and watch out if you deviate from the training schedule or do something that's not on the training schedule! What would I recommend? Well, I think that between the 2 services the army has more opportunities simply because it's bigger. But, the Marines being smaller means they haven't been hit with personnel cuts as hard as the other services, so they should have higher morale and feel they have a real purpose. If you enlist in the army, make sure you get airborne school in the contract, and you'll be able to go right from there to RIP or Pathfinder school (at least you could when I went through jump school back in 87.) If you wait till you get to your unit to put in for schools, what rg00red said is true - your CO can (and probably will) disapprove it unless the unit can benefit from it directly, because the unit has to pay your training costs since you're assigned to them. Sending you to Ranger School or SFAS will be money he spends and not only does he not get a return on it, but he'll be short-handed till a replacement shows up (whom he'll have to train.)
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 10:22:58 AM EDT
(cont) FWIW, when I enlisted it was a choice between army and Marines, and if I could go back in today it would still be a choice between them. I loved going to the field, and right now the best chance for lots of field time is to be stationed at a training area - Combat Maneuver Training Center in Hohenfels Germany, National Training Center in Ft Irwin CA, or Twentynine Palms CA (officially called something like USMC Air-Ground Combat Center.) I spent about a month there in Sept 97 with my unit from Ft Sill OK, and it was absolutely the best training I'd been through in my entire time in service. We got there, spent a couple days unloading the aircraft, getting the tracks off the railcars, and conducting PCIs, then rolled out for 2 1/2 weeks in the desert. When it was over, we spent 3 or 4 days doing after-ops maintenance, went to the railhead, loaded up the tracks, then loaded up the a/c and flew back home. A lot more training time, and a lot less administrative time, than we would have had if it had been any of the army-run training centers I'd been to.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 10:34:13 AM EDT
Nomad-FA2 Go Marine Corps! The Corps is much smaller and spread thinner. This can be a liability, but it has an up side. There are fewer men to do more and some of the "more" are some pretty cool jobs. Even if you didn't go Recon you would still have had the very best basic training in all of the U.S. armed forces. Has anyone talked to you about sea duty or embassy duty? Travel to strange lands and meeting exotic people of any interest to you? Marines guard all of our embassies. If you go Marines here are some points to keep in mind. Boot camp is tough. Not everyone makes it. My youngest brother couldn't hack it, and he was some kind of badass (always fighting, nearly stabbed to death in a knife fight and didn't learn). Although it is used as a slogan, it is a truism; Pain is temporary, Pride lasts forever. Boot camp will change you. It will make you stronger, not just physically but where it really matters, in your mind and in your heart. Here's the key to Marine Corps Boot Camp: Never give up, never quit trying to exceed your expectations. It just so happens that it is also the key to Life. If you will just do that you will graduate with honors, and you will be a sucess in life. The DIs will constantly push you to do more. To do some things you won't believe possible. But here's the secret: They will never ask you do something you are not capable of. The main job of the DI is to prepare you to push your self to the next level. The only thing that can stop you is you, if you quit trying. Good luck in what ever you choose to do. Semper Fi Vic.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 12:16:11 PM EDT
If you are making a career out of it, Go Army. If I had a nickel for every Marine that joined the Army because he couldn't get promoted past Lance Corporal, I'd be rich right now. I will agree that the average Marine is a much finer, more disciplined fighting soldier than the average Army Soldier. I spent 13 years active duty, 6 as a Ranger and I can tell you, that will be one of the greatest accomplishments of your life (2nd only to having children). If its not in writing, however, you can forget being guaranteed it. If you have any specific questions, you can e-mail me at francisangels@earthlink.net. Good Luck whatever you do.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 12:16:59 PM EDT
I guess I have the advantage of being an Officer of Marines and working with and training officers of both services. If your goal in life is to jump out of planes or being an operator, well the Army is probably a better choice for you, that is if you qualify. Here is an interesting tid bit that you might want to think about most of the army officers I work with say if they had to it to all over again they would have joined the Marines, so you can take that for what is worth. Here are some of the complaints that I often hear. -One of the big problem is the entire way of recruiting people. The entire premises is built around, come in the Army get money for college and leave. Although the Marine Corps has very similar veteran benefits, we don't advertise them. Why, we feel that we don't want someone's whose entire purpose in life is to earn money for school, we want people who want to be Marines. In the recent past the army also seems to focus on a lot of symbolism over substance items. -Entire focus of the Army is on training for the next CTC rotation, and less on warfighting in general. -For officers today, is about the planning process and less about executing. -A common refrain is if you cannot make the standard lower it and set low standards and fail to achieve them. This is one of the big problems, although they recruit from the same pool of talent as the Marines. Once they get the same people, they will set standards that are lower. And as you see, you get what you expect. If the standards are raised you would get much better results. You can even see that by the armies elite units, the Rangers and SF. They have very high standards, and imagine that the men in those units perform to them.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 12:36:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 12:36:53 PM EDT by cyrax777]
asking a army/marine veteren or currently enlisted man who to join is like asking a colt 1911 guy what he thinks of your glock. people can be very biased. so look at what they each offer
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 1:25:16 PM EDT
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY Nomad-FA2 Howdy,I am joining the armed forces later this year.At one point,I was gung ho on being a Marine,now I'm thinking ARMY.I've talked to both,but have more friend who did Army,one who was regular infantry,but he did sniper school,jump school,and all the other cool stuff.I heard the Army is better for the "long run" and I am more interested in the Army's larger opportunities for being a Special Forces guy.My current plan is to go for infantry,then to airborne,then onto Ranger.I was thinking going R.I.P,but my friend (army) told me I would be MUCH better off being airborne first,then Ranger,so I would have the edge over the FNGs.Marines are not completely outta the picture,so anything can happen.Army seems right for me,for the reasons I wanna join the "ground guys" whatever advice/comments you have,I'll be interested to hear em.I know alot of you people have done the deed already. [red] It sounds to me like you think the military is some kind of club you join. Take your pick of the the 2 services. It won't matter a bit if YOU don't have what it takes!! You have no idea the amount of hard work,sweat, and tears it takes to become a Soldier or a Marine. Why does every body want to be a Sniper? Shit, If you want to kill somebody get into Artilery. One shot one kill no way. Blow them all to hell I say!! I have never been in the Marines, but as a Soldier I can promise you its not an Army of One! You get in and bust your ass and try and do the best you can. You do your best and serve with honor. After a couple of years then decide if you have what it takes to be a Ranger. If you go in with the idea you are going to be some kind of bad ass you are screwed. I have seen guys come and go and the best ones lead by example. A patch on your shoulder or wings on your chest won't get you jack shit! They send cooks and to Airborn school. I judge a Soldier by his deeds and actions not by the ribbons on his uniform. I have seen guys put themselves in for a ribbon and get them so they don't mean much to me. Good luck to you and I hope you join up for the right reasons. If you do you will make it just fine . If you join for the wrong reasons you will hate it. MY .02 worth!
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 1:35:53 PM EDT
To bad your joining our fighting forces so late, had you joined earlier you would have had the pleasure of serving under the greatest commander-in-chief in history, me! [smoke]
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 1:49:36 PM EDT
Join the National Guard and go to college for free. At drill you get to play with M16s! My grandfather was active Army for 30+ years enlisted. He retired and lived in a trailer. Think about your future..go to school! Oh, and do ROTC while in the Guard and you get a crapload of money from the state and federal gov't. My personal experience with Marines(Army and Marine Military Police train at the same MP school) is they're either really funny, cool guys or extremely arrogant a**holes. Whatever you choose, you have my blessing and gratitude for serving our country.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 2:50:06 PM EDT
If you decide to join, get whatever schools you think you want in writing in your contract. Don't let the recruter tell you if you want this school or that school just tell your commander when you get to your assigned unit. Remember this is his job and he has a quota he has to fill, make him work for you. Most of them don't give a rat's ass about you, you're just a number. But as others have said, unless you are very dedicated it may be best to join regular infantry first and see how you can adapt, it is a totally different way of life and it's not for everybody.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 3:01:18 PM EDT
Wow,thanks guys! SPORTSMAN SUPPLY,I did'nt post to have people flaming on "how I have no idea how hard it is" however,I knew at least one guy would post that.I do appreciate everyone's views.I have numerous close friends who were Army,and they are a great help to me.I am not joining specifically for college,but I do plan to get a degree using Uncle Sam's tab.If I did it for the money,I would'nt be infantry....I just like serving was something I had to do,and when I got out,I'd be a better,sharper person as a whole,in many ways besides physically.Ya know? Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 3:11:50 PM EDT
A little OT. I've never been in the military and I know jack about what it's like, but I get the impression that these special forces units and the like are not necessarily compromised of the strongest and most physically fit guys, but with men that simply never give up. They never quit, no matter what crap they're put through. Am I on base here?
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 3:18:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 3:23:51 PM EDT by SPORTSMANS SUPPLY]
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY Nomad-FA2 Wow,thanks guys! SPORTSMAN SUPPLY,I did'nt post to have people flaming on "how I have no idea how hard it is" however,I knew at least one guy would post that.I do appreciate everyone's views.I have numerous close friends who were Army,and they are a great help to me.I am not joining specifically for college,but I do plan to get a degree using Uncle Sam's tab.If I did it for the money,I would'nt be infantry....I just like serving was something I had to do,and when I got out,I'd be a better,sharper person as a whole,in many ways besides physically.Ya know? Thanks guys! [blue]Nomad-FA2 I was not flaming you. If I had flamed you, you would know it and this thread would be locked. I respect you for wanting to serve our country and I am sure you have every intention of being a great Soldier. Good luck to you no matter what you do. I just wanted to be honest with you and you need to realize what you may be getting yourself into! Its hard as hell to be a Ranger and you can be Damn Proud just to be a Soldier. I took it from your first post that you think the Elite units are the only ones that count. They are important no doubt but don't ever underestimate any Soldier and I don't care what his MOS is. We all matter, Its called Teamwork. Special Forces and Rangers don't fight a war by themselves. They depend on the support of regular Soldiers to get their missions accomplished.[/blue] [red] P.S. If you think what I wrote was a flame just wait until you meet your first Drill Instructor. I'll Promise you he'll flame your ASS real good for days and days on end. You better hope your skin gets a liitle thicker before then!!
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 3:24:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: A little OT. I've never been in the military and I know jack about what it's like, but I get the impression that these special forces units and the like are not necessarily compromised of the strongest and most physically fit guys, but with men that simply never give up. They never quit, no matter what crap they're put through. Am I on base here?
View Quote
A fit man with mental toughness will excel where a fit man without mental toughness will fail. Goes without saying, but I said it anyway.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 3:30:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 3:27:53 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 5:46:39 PM EDT
All that being said I have to add my final advise. Don't serve. Why should you risk your ass so that the wealthy and privileged won't have to. Bring back the draft and no college deferments I say.
View Quote
Personally, if I ever go to war again, I want people next to me who want to be there, not some worthless pissant who is being forced to be there. Chris
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 5:55:23 PM EDT
As a former Marine, you may want to consider the Air Force. They do have combat type jobs (some, got the assignment in writing in your contract), and they live a hell of a lot nicer. Just a better way to go. Look at security forced and combat controllers. The pararescue guys are too much like the coasties, without the coast guard trigger time.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 7:08:18 PM EDT
it always seemed to me that the army guys had more fun. example: we ran out of old, dead, gutted helicopters on teh ground with pretend rotor blades to be weary of, because the corps has no money! WE HAVE DONE SO MUCH WITH SO LITTLE FOR SO LONG, THAT NOW WE CAN DO ANYTHING WITH NOTHING. but i went to an army base once and these guys were using real helocopters for training in lifting stuff and putting it back down! BUT, when we walked around that army base in our usmc uniforms (sleeves rolled up so the inside shows vs. the army guys with them rolled up with the outside showing) it just felt like we could take that whole damn base in one day. just felt that way thats all im saying. maybe thats the difference to me, money and opportunity or a feeling of being part of something. good luck either way pal.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 8:50:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2001 8:49:17 PM EDT by kpel308]
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:34:35 PM EDT
Semper Friggin Fi Devil Dogs. Got me all jacked up now. As for the question, I think you got whatever you do get it in writing, and even then, keep your fingers crossed. As for me, would do the whole Corps thing again in a heartbeat. Smaller unit = more comraderie. This also means, as someone else said earlier, that you get additional assignments that can be pretty cool. For example, my contract made me a mechanic....ened up as artillery mech, but got to be on the NBC team. Also held two Cpl billets at the same time as a PFC. Then the best part was I got sent to Parris Island as a marksmanship instructor (too cool). Ordinance plus working on a rifle range everyday tends to make some good times. I think you will find the marine corps will make you act more mature than others your age, give you an incredible sense of pride, and all other marines, current and former, become your brother (or sister). Your choice of duty stations aren't as great, and they just dont have as much money, but it will stay with you for a lifetime. You will always think like a marine.
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:37:40 PM EDT
::chuckle:: I've read the thread... and all I can say is that I went to 95B school with a Marine as a bunk mate. He was impressed by our supply. That was near the only difference I could see. I simply refuse to denigrate Marines. They have proved themselves far too many times. That said So has the 101st, 4th Infantry and the 2nd armor div. I'll close this ramble with an old joke. A marine and a soldier were in the latrine taking a leak. The soldier finishes, buttons up and heads to the door. "In the Marines they teach us to wash our hands after using the head." As he goes through the door, the grunt responds,"In the Army they teach us not to piss on our fingers."
Link Posted: 7/3/2001 9:58:48 PM EDT
The services all pay the same, and have the same benefits. It is only a matter of personal choice that will decide which branch you choose. If you don't have the desire to be the absolute best this country has to offer, don't pick the Marines. It would be a disservice to the truly dedicated Marines around you. Forgive me if I should misquote. I am doing this from memory, but the intent is from the original. "Some people wonder their entire lives if they ever made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem!" -- Ronald Reagan "I don't understand what makes them stand out the way they do. They are basically the same type of people, when you get right down to it." -- General John J. Pershing, commenting about Marines to an aide after inspecting an Army Division and a Marine Brigade side by side. An aide to General Douglas MacArthur speaking to Colonel Lewis B. Puller. Korea 1950 -- "My God Colonel, look at your Sergeants!" Puller -- "What's wrong with them!" Aide -- "Nothing! They should all be Second Lieutenants in the US Army!" The choice is yours and yours alone. Semper Fi
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 5:11:10 AM EDT
Let me comment in a like manner .... Who's the elite in the Marines ? Recon - which is airborne infantry. Army has a whole division of 'em. Then - what do the Marines have after Recon ? That's IT. Army, you keep on going if you have what it takes (Rangers, SF, Delta, etc.). You want to train, but never need to worry about going on real-world missions ? Join the Marines. Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia .... Seemed like ARMY to me. Who is forward-deployed throughout the world and performing real-world missions as we speak ? Army. Chris
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 5:45:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 6:02:59 AM EDT by STLRN]
mrcr0603 The Marine Corps hasn't had "airborne" type units since the Second World War. Reconnaissance uses parachutes as a means of deep insertion. It is just a way to get there, nothing more. The army does have a whole division of airborne, but when was the last time they did a combat drop against a force with more fire power than a crack dealer? It is almost like the amphibious assault, Something that will never be done against an enemy with any form of combat power, but can be shown to congress for PR purposes every time money becomes an issue. In general the 101st gives a bigger bang for the buck that the 82 these days. Outside of special operations, there is probably a good argument to do away with airborne forces as an unnecessary extravagance in today's diminishing military. "Who is forward-deployed throughout the world and performing real-world missions as we speak? Army." Well, welcome to what the Marine Corps has been doing since the end of World War Two. A Marine unit has been committed to a real world contingency mission on average once ever 10 weeks since the end of the Second World War. Since the end of the cold war, it has gone to once ever 6 weeks. Panama-We were attacking a crack dealer. Since it was an Army run operation, the Marine were assigned to BS jobs of taking done a few small objectives. But than again there was no chance for the US to lose. Desert Storm-Coalition force, Marines and army pretty much worked together. Notable the CINC of CentCom assigned the Marines to assault through the teeth of the enemy defense, if you are in the military you understand how this normally is not the best thing to do. Because of the Marine going faster than the time table, the army Corps that were sweeping through the desert didn't close the noose on the escaping Iraqi and the Air Force did most of the killing on the highway of death. Somalia-Well, a MEU from I MEF was first on scene, did a hand over to the 10th Mountain. TF Ranger and the fire fight made famous in "Black Hawk Down" occurred at that time. Prior to the handoff Marines from RLT 7 did similar raids, but went in with overwhelming force, not taking US causalities. Following the political fallout of the raid by TF Ranger, a MEU from I MEF was the covering force for the withdrawal of 10th Mountain. So if you are going to cite information don't cite incomplete info.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 5:52:54 AM EDT
I hear all you guys talkin about "best of the best" and I can't help thinking to myself, Rangers? No. Marine Recon? Nah. No way boys, I believe we got the "best" over here in the Navy, I think they are call SEALs or sumpin? They got this little school called BUDS that I heard is pretty hard, if you can get in,
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 6:04:10 AM EDT
mrcr0603, You need to open a history book! Marines were present in Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia and a long list of other "Real World" missions in recent history. Marines are continuously forward deployed to the worlds hot spots, sitting just over the horizon in the ARG's ready to kick in the door and ruin some bad guys party. If I remember, there was an Air Force F-16 shot down over the Balkins a few years ago. You would have thought the Air Force would have been able to respond with their PJ's after all their entire mission is based upon air crew rescue under the most difficult circumstances. Or perhaps the Army's Delta Force, or SF's, or Rangers, or Airborne would have been ready and able to respond. I guess the Navy didn't have a SEAL team ready either. Nope...the "elite" and "forward deployed" just couldn't get the job done as quickly as those "everyday, and half price on Sunday, run of the mill, no where near the action" Marines. Since 10 November 1775...in every clime and place...America's 911 Semper Fi
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 6:09:55 AM EDT
There is no best of the best, they all are some of the best at their specialty. And there is a lot overlap in specialties.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 7:41:10 AM EDT
Doing what you want is the most important thing. The Marines: -Recon (or so my understanding goes) is just that. Direct Action missions are not their usual job. -Living conditions. The Army treats their troops better, but if you want it really nice, go Air Force (the world's largest airline/delivery service who also happens to deliver bombs and air superiority). -Class system; the Marines treat their enlisted troops like crap. You can expect to be locked down like a pre-teenager and given little responsibility or input. If you can deal with that, you'll be a stronger man when you are done, but you will get more opportunity for real leadership in the other branches. The Army: -Greater opportunities because it is a larger branch. -Ranger School vs RIP. Ranger School is a school. It does not guarranty a high-speed assignment and you most likely won't get an opportunity until you hit Sergeant or so, which will take several years. Your best opportunity is to go to a Ranger Unit. Get your contract for 11X (unassigned infantry), Airborne and RIP. Ranger batts do Direct Action almost exclusively and are a good stepping stone to any follow-on assigment you could want. -SF; you won't even be eligible until you hit E-4 promotable (a few years at best). Rangers or Airborne Infantry are you're best route, but even clerks and REMFs get into SF, and sometimes they make better operators because they are more flexible. Any branch is a good choice. I admit to bias, but the Army will give you more chances to get into really high speed assignments, has better and newer gear, and will eventually treat you like an adult, once you have proven yourself. The same can not be said about the more junior branches of service.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 9:39:59 AM EDT
Let me comment in a like manner ....
View Quote
No detailed information was meant to be given. Just generalizations like the other replies.
Who's the elite in the Marines ? Recon - which is airborne infantry. Army has a whole division of 'em. Then - what do the Marines have after Recon ? That's IT. Army, you keep on going if you have what it takes (Rangers, SF, Delta, etc.).
View Quote
The point is, there's more opportunity in the Army to do things that some people on this board consider "elite".
Who is forward-deployed throughout the world and performing real-world missions as we speak? Army."
View Quote
Cold War - Who was in the heart of communism, on the Berlin Wall ? Present - Who is in Bosnia, Macedonia ? Who is 540 meters from the DMZ at Camp Garry Owen, or in the Joint Security Area at Panmunjom ? The Army is ON THE GROUND throughout the world (USASOC elements are [u]everywhere[/u]), with the Marines "over the horizon" watching our back.
Panama-We were attacking a crack dealer. Since it was an Army run operation, the Marine were assigned to BS jobs of taking done a few small objectives. But than again there was no chance for the US to lose.
View Quote
If Just Cause was as simple as you say, then the FBI/DEA would've walked right in there and arrested him, right ? Military personnel FOUGHT and DIED during Just Cause, including four SEALS at Patilla. A combat operation, not a drug raid.
Desert Storm-Coalition force, Marines and army pretty much worked together. Notable the CINC of CentCom assigned the Marines to assault through the teeth of the enemy defense, if you are in the military you understand how this normally is not the best thing to do. [u]Because of the Marine going faster than the time table[/u], the army Corps that were sweeping through the desert didn't close the noose on the escaping Iraqi and the Air Force did most of the killing on the highway of death.
View Quote
Marines were tasked to attack a relatively short distance compared to the HUNDRED or so miles that the Army did. Couldn't have been that the Army had the lift and fast armor capability, could it ? Didn't find exact numbers, but it looks like 2 Marine Divisions, and almost 10 Army Divisions. But the way you portray it, Marines won it ? Don't think so. Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War http://es.rice.edu/projects/Poli378/Gulf/gwtxt_ch8.html
Somalia-Well, a MEU from I MEF was first on scene, did a hand over to the 10th Mountain. TF Ranger and the fire fight made famous in "Black Hawk Down" occurred at that time. Prior to the handoff Marines from RLT 7 did similar raids, but went in with overwhelming force, not taking US causalities. Following the political fallout of the raid by TF Ranger, a MEU from I MEF was the covering force for the withdrawal of 10th Mountain.
View Quote
A MEU [u]on the ground[/u] in Oct 93 would've changed history.
So if you are going to cite information don't cite incomplete info.
View Quote
And [b]your[/b] historical descriptions are to be considered "complete" ?
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:08:50 AM EDT
Come on guys,this doesn't need to turn into a "SEALS are better than Rangers" thread. All of the USSOCOM units can hold their own. If they could'nt they would'nt be there. Rangers go hit hard in Somolia,big deal. Maybe if the operations were ran different it would'nt of happened,people can't use this as a excuse.Are you telling me every one that served in vietnam can't fight because the politicans would'nt let them win? Just because the SEALs got whipped in Grenada and panama does'nt mean they can fight.I,being a Army guy,love to make fun of SEALs,BUT I woul'nt let anyone tear them down for no reason. And I guess since two Delta snipers got killed in Somolia that Delta,inarguably this nations finest operators if not the worlds,are untrain- ed,ill-equipped soldiers?WRONG!!!!!!! Those two snipers{Gordon and Shugart} VOLUNTEERED to go to the black hawk wreckage to rescue survivors.They knew what the where doing and they went anyway.They knew they might not come home but they had a call. And they answered it. How many of you would have done that? All these guys know that they might die, but they chose to serve in elite services anyway.And because of that,in my book the are all the best.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 10:17:09 AM EDT
Nomad - My son enlisted USMC 2 years & 4 months ago - against my wishes, I might add. He just made SGT last week. My observation is that the Corps has given him a resource for character / personal potential development that he would not have found in the civilian sector. His biggest complaint? Shitheads that enlist looking for a free ride! Couldn't be more proud of him! Semper Fi. GCF
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 2:10:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 2:11:21 PM EDT by Ross]
Army seems right for me,for the reasons I wanna join the "ground guys" whatever advice/comments you have,I'll be interested to hear em.I know alot of you people have done the deed already.
View Quote
Do whatever seems right for you. You can talk to all sorts of people in all services, but in the end it's all what YOU make it. Only you can complete anything you set your mind to. No one else can do it for you. I enlisted as a PV1 when I was 17 and I got out as a CPT. You can do plenty in any of the services. As far as all the talk of "real world" missions, and all the other BS, the fact is all services do them. You don't have to be some SF guy to wind up wearing civillian clothes, packing your M-9, and driving in an armored Suburban in Central America. There are a suprisingly large number of "special" missions that are carried out, or just supported, by regular line folks. As far as danger goes, I've buried alot of friends and come close to buying the farm several times. You'll run across more than enough danger. My best advice is to go into whatever you want, and be the best whatever you are. Don't quit, and don't settle for anything but the best out of yourself. It doesn't matter if you're a cook, or a test pilot. Be the best you are, and you will be valued for what you are. [img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1289692&a=9560558&p=38468309&Sequence=0[/img] Ross (incidently, I wasn't flying that one. That's just one of the few pictures of me that exists)
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 3:13:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2001 3:11:02 PM EDT by kpel308]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 3:17:20 PM EDT
I always LOVE the Interservice arguements..... Having served (proudly damnit) in both the USMC & Army, I can offer a few truths. Marines LIVE Esprit De Corps, the Army likes to TALK about it. As previously mentioned, soldiers RARELY tell someone that they are ARMY, it's mostly "I'm a Ranger" or "I'm Air Assault/Airborne Infantry, 101st ABN" etc....on and on. A Marine will tell you, "I am a Marine". Soldiers, for the most part, live better, and are treated better. There are more specialties (jobs) in the Army. The Marines rely on other services for many support functions. Promotions are generally slower in the USMC. Promotions depend on your MOS (job) and on YOU. The Army lacks "pride of belonging". Soldiers, in the VAST majority, do not handle or shoot their individual weapon, NEARLY as well as the average Marine. Best advice: Go to ALL of the recruiters, for ALL of the services. Get the BEST deal for YOU. All of the chest-beating, and posturing, will not change the fact that you have to live with your decision, for at least 3 or 4 years. I truly believe that you CAN NOT enlist with the intention of making ANY service a career. This is POOR planning. Good luck, regardless of your decision. Short joke: The Joint Chiefs of Staff all are argueing about whom is the best...and as normally happens, they can't decide. Someone finally gets the idea to ask the Pope who God thinks is the best. So, they call the Vatican and ask. The Pope ponders the question, and prays. Acouple of days later an envelope is delivered to the Joint Chiefs. The answer was this: "God loves all of the services equally, as they all attempt to serve the greater good, and they all have their fine points". signed, God, USMC(RET)
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 3:25:39 PM EDT
Nomad , I spent a lot of time in Airborne & SF units and one piece of advice I can give you is : DO NOT just sign up to become a Infantryman (or any "unskilled") MOS. In the Army you can sign up to learn a skill that is needed in the world and at the same time get assigned to the cool units like Airborne , Rangers and SF. These skills would be as a example ; Medic , ATC , Commo , Electronics , etc. I do not know anything about the Marines except that they only want & keep high speed persons w/ no BS allowed. GOOD LUCK
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 4:03:19 PM EDT
SCORE.....army...10.......marines...12......air force...1.....navy...1.........go in the air force dude....[smoke]
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 6:35:34 PM EDT
No, they are not, but much more than yours. You cited Panama, Desert Storm Somalia, like the army were the only people there, which they weren't. I'm sorry but you sound like you are or were a very junior solider with very little experience in the joint world. Yes, American died in Panama, but in the grand scheme of things the death rate for American military personnel didn't go much higher than peacetime causality rates. And if I remember right Noriega was carried away by the DEA. "Cold War - Who was in the heart of communism, on the Berlin Wall ?" As I remember we never fired a shot there and one could make the same argument while the Berlin Brigade was sitting there acting as a trip wire, Airman, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines were actually involved in hot wars around the world actually fighting and bleeding. "Present - Who is in Bosnia, Macedonia ?" This is the welcome to what the Marine Corps has been doing since the end of World War Two, for those two missions that started around 1993 I could name dozens of similar ones the Marine Corps has done since 1945. "Who is 540 meters from the DMZ at Camp Garry Owen, or in the Joint Security Area at Panmunjom ?" Mostly it is the Rooks, but there are American trip wires there. But since there hasn't been much more than guard duty going on there in the last several years. It really isn't more dangerous than the Marines in Okinawa doing the same thing. "(USASOC elements are everywhere)" Actually it is JSOC that runs the show. I don't have to read the report to congress on the Gulf, we were told that we would take over 50 percent causalities clearing the defenses into and through Kuwait. Everyone, except the French moved faster than anticipated. If you look a the actually goal of the Gulf, the clearing of Kuwait, I MEF with Tiger BDE of 2nd Armor did that. The actual most effective units that the army had, were its heavy units (the ones that be your description aren't elite). And maybe you can answer this would a MEU with its Battalion Landing Team sized ground Combat element have made a difference, when 10th Mountain had a BDE on the ground? Maybe it is that we bring a lot more combat power to the table than a comparable sized army light, airborne or air assault unit?
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 7:34:18 PM EDT
Let me break it down to terms that we all can understand: CHICKS DIG MARINE UNIFORMS. And that's all I got to say 'bout that.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 8:22:59 PM EDT
Don't any of you Marines take this the wrong way, but the Plant Manager where I work is a retired Lt Col, USMC, and he is the biggest f*cking moron I have ever met. The dumb SOB absolutely REFUSES to listen to experience, and micro-manages even the most trivial matters. The guy HAD to have been PAO, or something equally stupid; I refuse to believe this guy could have EVER been a line officer. For all you guys who may have served under this idiot, you have my symathy. By the way, I was reg. Army, and loved it (the field, anyway), and have served under the Army's version of this guy.
Link Posted: 7/4/2001 11:06:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STLRN: No, they are not, but much more than yours. You cited Panama, Desert Storm Somalia, like the army were the only people there, which they weren't.
View Quote
I've posted about this topic before, and have NEVER demeaned the contributions of ANY branch, or the service of ANY member of the military. But when I hear what I feel is biased [u]bullsh#t[/u] talked about my branch, I'm going to say [b]SOMETHING[/b].
[u]I'm sorry but you sound like you are or were a very junior solider with very little experience in the joint world.[/u]
View Quote
Oh, don't apologize. That statement has truly clarified for me who I'm dealing with. A shot like that is just what's needed to bring things [b]down[/b] to "junior soldier" level.
Yes, American died in Panama, but in the grand scheme of things the death rate for American military personnel didn't go much higher than peacetime causality rates. And if I remember right Noriega was carried away by the DEA. "Cold War - Who was in the heart of communism, on the Berlin Wall ?" As I remember we never fired a shot there and one could make the same argument while the Berlin Brigade was sitting there acting as a trip wire, Airman, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines were actually involved in hot wars around the world actually fighting and bleeding.
View Quote
I just cannot see how you can so easily trivialize these events. I'm sure that the Marines at Guantanamo Bay would have strong words to say if the same was said about what they're doing.
"Who is 540 meters from the DMZ at Camp Garry Owen, or in the Joint Security Area at Panmunjom ?" Mostly it is the Rooks, but there are American trip wires there. But since there hasn't been much more than guard duty going on there in the last several years. It really isn't more dangerous than the Marines in Okinawa doing the same thing.
View Quote
Yep, they aren't doing sh*t up there. That's why there are KN security guards up there that rotate between JSA and the PX. See comment above.
"(USASOC elements are everywhere)" Actually it is JSOC that runs the show.
View Quote
And ? USASOC has a LTG in command that doesn't mean jack, right ? Anyway, they're STILL there ….
…. Everyone, except the French moved faster than anticipated. If you look a the actually goal of the Gulf, the clearing of Kuwait, I MEF with Tiger BDE of 2nd Armor did that. [u]The actual most effective units that the army had, were its heavy units[/u] ….
View Quote
The Tiger Bde, AND the Army was effective ?! I'm happy to see you write that. I'm staying clear of Somalia .... a subject that is already known about on this board. You are entitled to view military history with a slant toward your service, just as I will continue to view it with a slant toward mine. I will also continue to address attacks toward my branch as I feel necessary. I am a Sergeant First Class in the United States Army with 18 years of service next month, and [b]damn proud[/b] of who I am and of the branch I serve. Chris
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top