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Posted: 6/23/2001 6:11:07 PM EST
has? I want to see what it looks like. Thanks, JC
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 6:18:40 PM EST
i've seen it. it looks similar to flectarn. though, not as cool imho. flectarn crossed with russian "computer" camo. alas, no pic.
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 6:27:03 PM EST
Go to the Tactics forum. There was a discussion of the new Marine cammo there with a couple of pictures about 1-2 months ago.
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 6:27:28 PM EST
[img]www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/man-la-bdu-010210.jpg[/img] Sorry about the quality... Best one I could find (only one). HTH, havoc
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 6:41:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/23/2001 6:39:18 PM EST by sherm8404]
[url]http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/utility/NewUtesHome.htm [/url] Has all the pics you could want. And the funny part? Navy personnel assigned to the FMF [b]WILL[/b] wear the new utes with the EGA on the left front pocket.
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 7:04:07 PM EST
Nice link! Notice that leggings are back. Also, what's up with that VERY CUTE x-tra wide brim floppy?? FITTER out
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 7:13:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/23/2001 7:27:22 PM EST by pbrstreetgang]
thanks for the pics. wow, space marines! i'm currently lobbying for some gear. not hopeful. can anyone tell me about the new issue lbe? are they going to issue that "molle" gear i saw in u.s. cav. a while back? in the new camo? how about desert? hey, i'll bet THOSE hats (covers!) aren't made in china! all they need is brown furniture on those m-16's and they'll dissapear!
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 7:23:29 PM EST
OK, where can a average joe buy some of these new bdu's especially the desert boonie hat !!!! [x]
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 7:37:54 PM EST
I like the new utilities. Its about time the Corps went back to a distinct utility uniform. Those leggings, wow! What was old is new again. I just wish they would get rid of those god awful Army POS name tapes. Your name is Marine! G*d D*mn it!
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 7:51:11 PM EST
Maybe the retention rate will go up since you don't have to polish boots anymore! Damn kids got it easy...
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 8:17:39 PM EST
Man! I love boonie hats but that floppy assed thing looks like some old lady's beach hat! Yeeech!
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 9:09:36 PM EST
Thanks for the replies and link, those are some odd ball looking boots...
Link Posted: 6/23/2001 9:42:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Five O: Man! I love boonie hats but that floppy assed thing looks like some old lady's beach hat! Yeeech!
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If you have been to Saudi in August you would really like it.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 2:00:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 2:53:38 AM EST
The wide brim boonie cover will be changed to a standard sized boonie cover. The tops and bottoms are made of two different weight fabrics, to even out the wear rate of the uniforms. The sleeves on the pockets were one of the points that about ever Marine requested, since many Marines make field cammies by cutting the lower pockets off their cammie blouse and have them sown on their sleeves. You cannot get to the pockets on your blouse easily with your body armor on, anyway. The trousers have standard pockets, but per the request of the Marines they have draw cords on them. The actually cammies are an adaptation of the Canadian CADPAT, which is considered on of the most effective camouflages on moving objects. The actual pattern is "patented." There are EGA part of the pattern in the cammies. Beside the boots not being polished, the uniforms are also designed to not be pressed. The plan for issue is that starting this winter Recruits and Officer Candidates will start receiving them. Within the next 5 years ever Marine will receive 5 sets, 2 desert and 3 woodland, and two pairs of boots, 1 jungle and 1 ICB.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 3:23:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 3:36:01 AM EST
EGA=Eagle, Globe and Anchor or the common name for the Marine Corps Emblem. The trousers have normal flaps over the pockets, the actual cargo (side) pockets have a draw cord on their opening. So you can close them like normal, but they can also be cinched down for use in the field, making things falling out more difficult.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 4:00:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 5:31:12 AM EST
Rip, I can certainly see the benefits of a good wide brim but after that thing is washed and softens up it will be all down in you line of sight and forget peripheral vision... At least that would seem to be a potential problem. Glad to see STLRN advises the wide brim is being replaced.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 6:44:04 AM EST
I think the woodland pattern is very effective. Did yall look at the pics, especially the first one of the guy standing out in the woods with the M16? From a small distance away his body would be virtually invisible. Its amazing how well it blends in... Michael
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 7:01:28 AM EST
Sorry guys. It is going to take me a little while to let this new style camo to grow on me. I still prefer the woodland camo and the tiger stripe camo to this stuff. Not that I am totally against it mind you, it is just going to take a while to get used to it. DK [:D]
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 7:12:31 AM EST
I think Woodland colors with this pattern would be ideal... [img]www.predatorcamo.com/images/patterns/fb.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 8:16:00 AM EST
Mach if you know exactly were you will fight you can customize your cammies to that terrain, but it generally doesn't work well in other places. There was a Tiger Strip pattern similar to that that was tested, it was found the pattern that was selected was the best all around, sure for one specific environment you can do better, but since the Marine Corps deploys around the world, a jack of all trades beats a master at one.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 8:31:57 AM EST
It's about time. Looks good, and I hate to say this, but, I like the leggings. I dunno HOW many times I screwed up my shins. Just getting in and out of an AMTRAC was always a shin-buster. I wore boots similar to the new ones, and they are good. What are the wear-out dates going to be on present issue? A "suit" now costs over $160.00, do we have an idea what the total cost is going to be? Good Idea about having different trouser/blouse material also. Lew
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 11:31:33 AM EST
Starting at the end of the year the cost will by aprox $59.00 for a set (the commandant has said they will remain at the same price as Army BDUs). Enlisted Marines will either get them issued or get a special clothing allowance. Officers will have to purchase them and the boots, the current time line is everyone will switch over in 5 years. But I can see it that we will probably have to buy a few sets prior to that since Junior Marines and Officers will show up in the FMF with only the new style. I can assume that no change of command next summer will be in old style cammies since the new guys won't have them.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 11:32:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 11:41:48 AM EST
Well, the pattern was tested by the Scout Sniper School at Quantico. The Scout Snipers instructors, supposedly some of the best observers and snipers in the world, went through the different patterns at different ranges under differant light conditions and picked out one that were hardest for them to see most of the time. So if they say it was the most difficult to see, I believe them.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 12:58:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By STLRN: Mach if you know exactly were you will fight you can customize your cammies to that terrain, but it generally doesn't work well in other places. There was a Tiger Strip pattern similar to that that was tested, it was found the pattern that was selected was the best all around, sure for one specific environment you can do better, but since the Marine Corps deploys around the world, a jack of all trades beats a master at one.
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I agree. There is know one best camo for all situations, but I know from field experience that Predator camo works, and is versatile. The biggest problem I see with this new Marine camo is that it will probably work up close, but what wouldn't? Take a look at a man wearing that same camo at 50 or 100yds and you will see a dark silhouette.Bad news. In all fairness, I would need to see this new camo out in the field in person to make a final judgement.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 1:43:48 PM EST
In regards to the Cam sitrep ongoing with the USMC. I think its a good change, and appears to be quite practical, and much more effective than the old 'woodland ptrn'. Here in Australia we went to AUSCAM DPCUs back in the 80's. It looks absolutely stupid (check out www.army.gov.au), but it is really effective in the field, and is suited both to tropical vegitiations, and to dryer areas too. We have the angle breast pockets and a pocket on the left shoulder (which is useless). No lower pockets on the shirt, and good quality cargos on the trousers. You will get used to having no lower pockets on the shirt. They just get in the way of LBE etc. Anyways, 'good on ya's' for the new Cam! 1feral1 Sydney
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 1:50:37 PM EST
This is from the Permanant Uniform Board and how the new patern was made http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/mcub/utility/CammieConsid.htm Camouflage is the concealment of personnel or equipment from the enemy by making them appear to be part of the natural environment. This is a vital concern for Marines, and covers a broad area of tactical study. In a manner of speaking, camouflage is the ability to disguise, or mask, ourselves from the detection of our opponents' senses - whether by sight, sound, smell or even electronic sensors. Camouflage can be used for either defensive or offensive purposes. For surveillance or reconnaissance, this may mean to not reveal ourselves at all. For an assault, it may mean waiting until we are within a short distance from an unsuspecting enemy. It helps us to obtain and maintain the initiative in combat, by allowing us to conceal ourselves from the enemy until the moment of our choosing when we want our presence known. As the Marine Corps first considered development of a new combat utility uniform, one of the primary areas reviewed for improvement was the camouflage pattern. The camouflage pattern is one of the most important components of any combat uniform. As the uniform covers most of the body, it is one of our key personnel camouflage concerns. Recognizing this as an complex field of study, the project team turned to one the premier experts of the field: the Scout Sniper Instructors School. The Scout Sniper Instructor School considered various factors that influence personnel camouflage. Most of these are termed as target indicators, which means anything Marines do or fail to do that subsequently reveals themselves to the enemy. One primary target indicator is improper camouflage. Since the purpose of camouflage is to blend in with the immediate surroundings, having an appearance that contrasts with the environment would be considered improper camouflage. The ability to blend into the environment is often relative to the perception of the viewer. Perception is often dictated by whether the viewer is trained to view the world with primary vision, or if the viewer has the natural tendency to use secondary vision. Secondary vision is when the viewer associates what he or she sees with pre-conceived mental images, a limiting form of memory recognition. If an observer searching for a specific object does not see something that corresponds with a pre-conceived image, the object often goes unnoticed. An observer trained in primary vision, however, will not view a visual area with pre-conceived notions of what to expect, and therefore has a better chance of picking up on partial or obscured objects. A deer concealed in vegetation may not be seen by someone using secondary vision because they are looking for a head with antlers; whereas someone using primary vision will spot the white tail. Most people are not trained to see with primary vision skills and rely instead on secondary vision. Even so, the average observer can still detect improper camouflage.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 1:51:22 PM EST
This is generally caused by having an appearance that is intuitively recognizable as man-made. Natural objects often follow a random flow of colors and patterns in their appearance; man-made objects often have geometric shapes, solid and contrasting forms, or other indications of a recognizable pattern. With these concerns in mind, it is useful to think of a uniform's camouflage in terms of pattern and color. The pattern helps break up the outline of the wearer's body by implying a flow of space. An untrained observer naturally divides a field of view into positive space and negative space. A tree, building or other specific object that draws our focus is considered positive space. The visual area in between two positive spaces is considered negative space. As a person's observation moves across a field of vision, his or her natural tendency is to jump from positive space to positive space. Anything that interrupts this flow of space would be considered a target indicator. Many commercial camouflage patterns are based upon some representation of positive space. Most hunters tend to find a position near a tree or other form of positive space. As they tend to remain in position for long periods of time, camouflage patterns such as those imitating tree bark and leaves work to their advantage. Marines, however, spend most of their time being mobile, and they often cross negative space while moving toward an objective or checkpoint. They need a camouflage pattern that breaks up their outline, reducing their identification as positive space and lending to the perception of being as part of the background. Obviously, the speed of movement in itself can attract attention, but disciplined movement can reduce this to an acceptable minimum. The ideal pattern would allow for a squad to move through an environment with as little signature as possible. If the squad were to halt while in a dispersed formation with some members motionless in an open area, good camouflage would break up their outlines and allow them to blend in with the surrounding negative space - or allow natural and uninterrupted flow of space.
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 1:52:20 PM EST
Colors can also be perceived as natural or man-made. Drab colors blend more evenly in a natural environment than do primary colors, which are more commonly found outside of nature. Primary colors, in this sense, apply to the true value of the color. True blue and true yellow mixed in equal amounts make true green. Although different shades and hues of green can be found in any forest, true green is not common - therefore, a target indicator. The same can be said for true brown, which is composed of equal parts of true red, true yellow and true blue. Shades of brown are more commonly found in nature than green. Preferred camouflage uses medium value colors. Medium value colors have a greater tendency to make use of ambient light reflected off surrounding objects. Take a green leaf: it absorbs sunlight -- which is composed of all colors of the spectrum -- but reflects the color green. This is the color our eyes see. It is also reflected onto surrounding objects, which in turn absorb or reflect the color in addition to the sunlight. A medium value brown will absorb some of this color and reflect back the rest. The result is a slight shift in the brown's perceived value to match the environment. Basically, if an object closely resembles its surrounding environment, the mind often makes the automatic assumption that what it sees is part of the environment. This is usually the case, unless the color obviously contrasts with the natural environment or if the observer is well-trained in primary vision. Medium value brown generally comes close in hue to most common natural colors. This also explains why black is often used in camouflage patterns. Black is rarely found in nature, but most observers register shadows or dark colors as black. It is no secret that our current utility uniform violates a few of these principles. It has four colors arranged in contrasting "blotches" throughout the surface of the uniform. The green and brown used in the pattern dominate the overall color scheme, both of which are close to their primary value. These colors are not suitable for most wooded environments. The excess use of green in the pattern has been determined to more often than not draw attention to the wearer. In addition, each colored "blotch" on the pattern has well-defined edges, causing abrupt transitions between colors. These qualities of pattern and color on our current uniform tend to interrupt the flow of space and attract attention to the wearer. As the Scout Sniper Instructor School tested various camouflage patterns, it applied these considerations to determine the best pattern. The pattern had to break up the outline of the wearer. Out of eight patterns submitted to the School for evaluation, two were regarded as the leading contenders. An improved "tiger stripe" pattern and a computer generated pattern called the "MARPAT."
Link Posted: 6/24/2001 1:52:49 PM EST
The tiger stripe is a pattern well-known to most of the military. Different variations are used throughout the world. The proposed Marine version used colors that had been optimized to use medium value colors for maximum effect. The pattern itself had a natural flow which lent to an effective break up of the wearer's outline, although the flow tended to be bi-directional. The MARPAT also uses optimized colors with medium values, and has a random, omni-directional pattern. Viewed up close, this pattern appears in small digital blocks, but with increasing distance serves to blend in with any numerous environments. Although the tiger stripe was found to be more effective than the current pattern, the MARPAT was considered the best of the selection due to its multi-environment flexibility, tactical effectiveness and ability to provide service distinctiveness.
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 2:50:43 AM EST
Why don't you justs cut to the chase and spare us the verbose prose next time and just say: "Service Distinctiveness" They didn't pick what was best for Marines, they picked what was best for the Corps. But then most Marines won't know the difference. BUT I like it anyway. MC
Link Posted: 6/28/2001 12:37:32 PM EST
erbspaniard That was merely cut from the Marine Corps web site about the uniform to explain why the specific pattern was chosen. I would have preferred to go with the new cammie design with the old woodland pattern because you ID people at a distance by the cammie they are wearing having two or more patterns in DOD with all the joint ops isn't good.
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