"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with iron sights"
-Alfred Einstein

Why are we using a handgun for HOME defense? If forced to use a handgun in that role I’ll take a full-size handgun with a light and red dot.

If you are at least a capable shooter, decent to expert, in self defense, from 0-5 yards, you're instinctively shooting. You're not  really using your sights, irons or optics. You don't need to. Your presentation will put you on target. you'll see the sights or the dot, but you're not lining it all up like you do when target shooting. You're shooting on instinct almost. You'll see the sights but  aligning them won't be your focus.

6-10 yards, your sights come into play more, and that that distance, there's really not much difference between the two.

Beyond ten yards is where the red dots start to become superior, and at 15 and out, they're definitely superior.

Looking at defensive use of handgun statistics, the vast, vast majority of defensive use is from contact distance to 5 yards.

FBI/LEO stats show that

44% of defensive handgun use is  0-5 feet. That between contact and less than 3 yards. You're not using sights. You're not even stretching your arms out. Your primary concern is retention of the pistol, and you're shooting from the hip or somewhere in between there and just getting your arms out.

21% of SD shootings occur from 6-10 feet. That's 2 to just over 3 yards. You might use your sights or you mighty not. All you're concerned with there is getting your pistol out in front of you and getting your shots off quickly. Most people will see their sights, but won't be focused on them. It'll be on the target, you know it's kinda lined up or that your dot is on it, and you pull the trigger.

15% is 11-20 feet. 3.6 yards-6.6 yards. At 3.6 yards, nothing's changed from the description above until you get to about 5 yards. 5 yards to 6.6 yards, you've got a better sight picture, but you're only lining up your front sight or you're seeing the dot on the target. You're not taking the time to be perfect. You're still in the mindset of getting rounds off before the bad guy does because at this distance, it's still all about putting rounds downrange.

8% is between 21ft-50ft. 7 yards to 16.6 yards. At the bottom end of that range, it's still just seeing a bit of your sights and getting rounds off. Past ten yards, you're still being fast, but you can start getting a sight picture. Either the irons or the dot is about as fast as the other, but past ten yards, the dot is starting to show it's advantages, but it's close.

12% is 50 feet and beyond. That's 16.6 yards. Irons are still pretty fast and easy, but the dots are taking over. I'd say past 20-25 yards, it's all dot.

So, for 75% of your defensive shooting, You're either not getting to look at your sights, or barely being able to until a certain point, and from there to about 15 yards, it doesn't matter what you have. Really, the red dots don't have a real advantage until about 15 yards in a defensive shooting, so maybe 15-20% of defensive shootings.

I know, I know, " I see my sights/dot just fine when I'm practicing." Yeah, we all do.

When you're under stress, moving to keep from getting shot, or a guy is on top of you or actively attacking you, you're not going to see your sights until you're around 10 yards away, and then for only a split second. At that distance it doesn't matter what you have. Beyond that, you might get a bit more time, and then it matters.

I've only had to fire a handgun in anger but twice. I couldn't see the guy shooting at me either time. They were hiding in the woods. I returned fire to get to cover and to get back into the house and call the police. Both times a building on my property had been broken into. I have had to draw on a few people, crackheads, when I worked security for a store owner. Never had to fire because they put theirs down and in one case could get it out fast enough. So, technically, I've never been in a gunfight, but I've been shot at a few times.

You don't really see your sights, whether it's a red dot or irons in a lot of cases. What you'll see, is your front sight or that dot for a half a second, unless you're behind cover or far enough away from the attacker.

Use what you want. I prefer irons on pistols for SD. Dots on all my rifles.

@Alaskanforfreedom

Grit Grips

I don't understand.

How long do some of you go without touching your primary defensive pistol?

I hope this is sarcasm

Yeah I don't get it either. I change batteries in my optics annually like I do my smoke detectors. And every time I put my carry gun on I get a practice draw in and verify the dot is functioning and the light works, make sure a round is chambered and the magazine is loaded, reholster it, and go about my day.

The FBI does not track shooting distances and publish it. They track the distance at which an officer was killed only. That tells us absolutely nothing about the fight other than the distance it ended. LEO data varies extremely wildly from almost no data to poor data to some ok data seems the only universal data point is people don’t like to share it.

There are people who will tell you they never used there sights in a gunfight and there are people who will tell you they did.

If I left my shit sitting around long enough between range or dry fire sessions to kill a battery, I'm not hitting anything anyway when I do pick it up. I'm not John Wick, I actually have to practice.

This would certainly be a concern for someone who is too inept to maintain their shit and only goes to the range once every three years or so.

Show me those stats.

It was posted a few pages back, but apparently you and others missed it.

https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_6377087e72264cd18dbcb04eea4686ce.pdf

For the TLDR crowd, here are some of the key conclusions:



It shows that, as many individuals here have stated, accuracy is improved with an RDS. In every scenario in the Norwich study, the RDS shooters were more accurate.







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Below is the Iron sight hitmap

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If you don't and aren't going to train, shoot or compete, stick with Irons.

Proficiency is far more important than the sight.

after shooting irons for 25 years and then RDS. RDS has a clear advantage, but I would not recommend carrying RDS without proper instruction on how to shoot with one.

Only if you pocket carry.

Cool. Using a red dot will make you better with irons.

Put the dot on the target,  like you put your irons on the target.  There..proper training done

Ok folks. Bacon Fat is here, we can cross this off of the list.



See you all in a few months

more science backing up the data

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Why are you guys making this a bigger deal than it needs to be? Stick a red dot on your G17/34/45 and go see. It absolutely blows the water out from irons.

Like anything else, you need to reasses what your needs are. Does your j-frame need an SRO? Probably not.

If you avoid diverse areas you probably won't need your gun in the first place.

Typical Dance RDS thread where the OP lights the fuse and runs away, I think the RDS guys are getting trolled.

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After a range trip yesterday, my buddy and I were at lunch (it's our range-day tradition to get Mexican food).

I asked him how many iron sights have failed on his guns. He answered 4.

I then asked him how many pistol red dots have failed on his guns. He answered 1. The Sig red dot with the plastic housing that came on one of his P365s.

He asked me the same. I've had 3 sets of irons sights fail on my pistols and no red dots have failed for me.

How long have you been shooting pistols with irons vs rds.

After 34 years of shooting handguns I've had 2 front sights fall off. I new both were loose but kept putting off fixing them.

After 10 years of using mrds I've had 1 rmr become unusable due to water in the emitter and on the lense. I couldn't even see the buis through the lense but after drying out its been fine.

I actually won't even add up all the cheap mrds I've had go down. Working at a sig dealer with a range I have no confidence in them. I don't think it's fair to lump good mrds in with the cheap ones.

I think irons that are loose are more likely to be caught by preventative maintenance while cleaning whereas mrds just kinda stop working.

12 years with irons, 4 with red dots

I still fucking hate this place

I shot these two yesterday
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Instinctive aiming at 15 feet.

I stopped reading there.

Well said. Thanks for posting those real-world distance stats on civy defensive shootings. At those distances, RDSs add no discernible advantage over irons.

I’m sure all the Stoeger-wannabes and RDS Faucis will be along to dispute those facts without providing legit links to their sources.

You can't instinctive shoot 15 feet?   How shitty is your index?

Lol

It's good enough that the dot goes right where I want it during my draw. Hence I don't need to index shoot.

I've also found most people who claim to be able to instinctively point and shoot can't do it like they claim.

Can you draw and hit a dog at 15 feet running from your right to your left about to bite your child?

Can you draw and hit a gunman behind a store shelf while he is moving towards your family presenting a firearm?

Oh, you can draw and shoot and maybe hit an IPSC target somewhere in the silhouette on a range from a prepared position? Wow. I'm impressed.

How would I know, I don't practice any of that...you shooting a lot of running dog chasing your kid or you just making up scenarios you can tactically masterbate to....

What I can do is 8" at 50 yards.  I can shoot and transition multiple targets at speed and call and hit head shots at 25yard with a gun with no sights.  

Fucking tactical timmays with their story time

Point-shooting with a pistol that has no sights?

Post a video of you doing it on steel so we can all see/hear your hits.

While I can’t and won’t speak to BaconFat’s ability to do it, it’s not as far fetched as it sounds:





To be clear, both Sage Dynamics/Aaron Cowan and myself are firmly on the side of “there are no downsides to RDS on pistols, period.”

ETA: Here’s a dude shooting steel at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards with a CZ75 with no sights:

I love red dots

But not on my carry. Nights sights only.  

I don’t want water, lint or any other shit that could build up in the new to interfere with my aim.

Red dots are better for accuracy and speed without a doubt but having shot matches in the rain or had a chunk of mud land on the lens, I’d rather have irons for my concealed carry.  I don’t think I’ll be using it to make 50yds shots and probably don’t need the irons for 10yd shots

All your listed objections can be prevented with an enclosed emitter

This.   I've heard of this before. Dudes that spend the time and ammo practicing Pont shooting, can get scary-good at it.  

He might actually be right.

(Though I still like the idea of the youtube video regardless)

LOL.  25 yard head box without sights?

Doubt, at any speed.

It's a training issue.     but I'm slow as fk with RDS   not so much with irons

Sure, and Jerry Miculek can do a clean Bill Drill with an upside-down M82A1. The exception does not prove the rule.

I like how you don't show the targets after shooting them or how far the steel target is.

ROFL.

Video 1 isn’t 25 yards.  Not even to the far targets.  There are also no head boxes.  There are partials… and no hits shown.

No distance shown in video 2, we just take your word for it?  From a 1 second video?

Again.  Doubt.

I have a cheap dot on my 22/45 and it is nice for plinking, but I would not want to carry it for hunting. It is too heavy/top heavy and it makes holster selection difficult. I have a fiber optic front sight on it and it is quite accurate with it as is. I'm considering removing the dot and keeping the irons.

(not a boomer, barely an X-er)

You can try to make up reasons why you think it didn't happen.  But the distances are accurate and the hits are good.  I don't take videos of things I pretend I can do, I take videos of what actual GM skills are.....but you'll never have them, because instead of thinking...hey maybe I should work to get my skills at that level, you try to pretend that it is fake.