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Posted: 5/12/2024 6:21:01 AM EDT
[#1]
I keep saying this in every thread but I can run irons and a red dot at the same speed within typical pistol distances.
The fine dot of the red dot makes it easier to shoot farther though, imo. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 6:33:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523]
[#2]
offense versus defense carry?
In the case of Defense carry, forget anything that is running electrics, since when used, great deal of the time sights are not used in the first place. Same goes for CCW type rigs, where your talking concealed, and even the added mass of light on the gun just make is harder to conceal without printing. As for offensive weapon, RDS sight on the gun just makes it harder to deal with a moving target, such as adding in the needed lead (why RDS on a shotgun for moving targets does not work. Hell, in regards to LEO, reaction time on a target when your life is in danger, still work by the front sight on target rule to begin with. Then you get into the reliability of the RDS itself, that when it goes bad, and you do not have back up sights, your pretty much screwed. Don't get me wrong, since I do run optics on unlimited class pistols for match use, but for real life carry pistols, use the unlimited/10L class rules instead. Hence MPF rules so pistol does do enough damage in the first place on target, and running iron sights that you don't have to worry about failing at any time, since again, if defense situation, if only going to be using the front site for the phone booth type distance in play. Simply, try to come out of a CCW holster with either of these (while getting your shirt out of the way, so you snag the gun on it on the way out to slow you down even more),  Where is not seconds, but micro seconds that counts isntead. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 6:37:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FoxValleyTacDriver: I keep saying this in every thread but I can run irons and a red dot at the same speed within typical pistol distances. The fine dot of the red dot makes it easier to shoot farther though, imo. I always wonder what people are doing when they are slower with irons. Your sights are there at the same time, so what is the hold up? People are just mentally slower with dots because the believe there is more to line up, but your gun is either on target or its not and that has nothing to do with sighting system |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 6:54:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: Why yall yammering on about stage management in a thread about rds on carry pistols? Steel and cardboard aint bad guys. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: Originally Posted By StevenH: A B class guy who shoots all alphas doesn’t have a shooting deficiency, he has a stage planning and movement deficiency. Hell my ex wife was C class shooting a 1911 and never shot anything but alphas. Why yall yammering on about stage management in a thread about rds on carry pistols? Steel and cardboard aint bad guys. Absent a temporary increase in police qualification scores*, competition is about the only measurable data for the advantages of a RDS handgun. *in police quals the scores increase may be attributable to the RDS training course as much as the RDS itself. Give a cop 8-hours of handgun training of course his scores will improve immediately after |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:02:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Absent a temporary increase in police qualification scores*, competition is about the only measurable data for the advantages of a RDS handgun. *in police quals the scores increase may be attributable to the RDS training course as much as the RDS itself. Give a cop 8-hours of handgun training of course his scores will improve immediately after Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By Obo2: Originally Posted By StevenH: A B class guy who shoots all alphas doesn’t have a shooting deficiency, he has a stage planning and movement deficiency. Hell my ex wife was C class shooting a 1911 and never shot anything but alphas. Why yall yammering on about stage management in a thread about rds on carry pistols? Steel and cardboard aint bad guys. Absent a temporary increase in police qualification scores*, competition is about the only measurable data for the advantages of a RDS handgun. *in police quals the scores increase may be attributable to the RDS training course as much as the RDS itself. Give a cop 8-hours of handgun training of course his scores will improve immediately after I would agree that the quals are going to go up simply as a result of the training if you’re getting a proper transition to the optic similarly a two day handgun workshop would accomplish a lot. However they also got far more than that with the irons initially. I think the bigger indicator for LE is that the scores went up and we’re still higher than years passed after they didn’t go train like they should. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:30:20 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cajunkraut: Fair enough. Were you as skeptical about the Bureau's opinion that 9mm is the optimal duty and CCW pistol caliber? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:33:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JBecker_72]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523: Simply, try to come out of a CCW holster with either of these (while getting your shirt out of the way, so you snag the gun on it on the way out to slow you down even more), https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/200145/IMG_2056_jpeg-3211852.JPG Where is not seconds, but micro seconds that counts isntead. No issues getting either out of an AIWB holster from concealment. One of those sharp ass Trijicon HD sights is more of a snag hazard than either of those. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:36:08 AM EDT
[#8]
It’s definitely better. Faster, more accurate, more intuitive and better in low light.
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:37:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JBecker_72: No issues getting either out of an AIWB holster from concealment. One of those sharp ass Trijicon HD sights is more of a snag hazard than either of those. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JBecker_72: Originally Posted By Dano523: offense versus defense carry? In the case of Defense carry, forget anything that is running electrics, since when used, great deal of the time sights are not used in the first place. Same goes for CCW type rigs, where your talking concealed, and even the added mass of light on the gun just make is harder to conceal without printing. As for offensive weapon, RDS sight on the gun just makes it harder to deal with a moving target, such as adding in the needed lead (why RDS on a shotgun for moving targets does not work. Hell, in regards to LEO, reaction time on a target when your life is in danger, still work by the front sight on target rule to begin with. Then you get into the reliability of the RDS itself, that when it goes bad, and you do not have back up sights, your pretty much screwed. Don't get me wrong, since I do run optics on unlimited class pistols for match use, but for real life carry pistols, use the unlimited/10L class rules instead. Hence MPF rules so pistol does do enough damage in the first place on target, and running iron sights that you don't have to worry about failing at any time, since again, if defense situation, if only going to be using the front site for the phone booth type distance in play. Simply, try to come out of a CCW holster with either of these (while getting your shirt out of the way, so you snag the gun on it on the way out to slow you down even more), https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/200145/IMG_2056_jpeg-3211852.JPG Where is not seconds, but micro seconds that counts isntead. More people need to grapple with their carry guns. If you haven’t practiced drawing with one hand while being punched in the head then you don’t know what you don’t know. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:40:09 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: I only pipe up when the Fudd Lords spew their typical BS. They're "just as good", can't answer training questions, they know exactly how their gunfight is going to go and the exact distance... blah blah. I don't give a shit what people carry, or how they carry. 87% of this board are squared away pocket carrying gunslingers! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Originally Posted By Krombompulos_Michael: The RDS zealots are like listening to crossfitters or ketards. Just shut the fuck up already and do what suits you. It isn’t a religion you have to preach. No one gives a shit. I have hand guns with RDS I have been using for well over a decade. Before they were a thing I was shooting USPSA in Limited and Production and became very proficient with iron sights. I do both. I have carry guns with and without RDS depending on how I feel that day. I can tear up a stage with an RDS equipped gun, but I can do the same with irons so I really don’t feel disadvantaged when I carry without. Options are great and I enjoy being able to use both on my handguns and long arms. I only pipe up when the Fudd Lords spew their typical BS. They're "just as good", can't answer training questions, they know exactly how their gunfight is going to go and the exact distance... blah blah. I don't give a shit what people carry, or how they carry. 87% of this board are squared away pocket carrying gunslingers! My Sig P320c I carry on duty had an RDS on it. So does the G45 I used at my last USPSA match in carry optics division. Who are you calling fudd? The fact that some of us who put in the range time to use iron sights proficiently doesn’t make us fudds. Like I said, I was shooting USPSA long before RDS pistol optics were a thing. If you can’t use both it probably means you need some more range time and lessons. It’s not a religion. I own them and use them. I also know how to use iron sights. Not a bad skill to have if your RDS shits the bed. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:42:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Krombompulos_Michael]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: OP gives a shit. He specifically asked for this discussion to be rehashed, again. Then there are other people asking questions and getting answers. If it makes you angry, maybe don't partake? I hate crossfitters as much as the next guy... But I don't go into threads about crossfitting and talk shit about their gay pullups or whatever and tell them that no one gives a shit about it. That would be weird. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By Krombompulos_Michael: The RDS zealots are like listening to crossfitters or ketards. Just shut the fuck up already and do what suits you. It isn’t a religion you have to preach. No one gives a shit. I have hand guns with RDS I have been using for well over a decade. Before they were a thing I was shooting USPSA in Limited and Production and became very proficient with iron sights. I do both. I have carry guns with and without RDS depending on how I feel that day. I can tear up a stage with an RDS equipped gun, but I can do the same with irons so I really don’t feel disadvantaged when I carry without. Options are great and I enjoy being able to use both on my handguns and long arms. OP gives a shit. He specifically asked for this discussion to be rehashed, again. Then there are other people asking questions and getting answers. If it makes you angry, maybe don't partake? I hate crossfitters as much as the next guy... But I don't go into threads about crossfitting and talk shit about their gay pullups or whatever and tell them that no one gives a shit about it. That would be weird. I’m not angry, just sharing my experience since OP opened the door. Lots of tender feelings here. The RDS religion is alive and well. The first commandment is obviously “thou shalt not use iron sights”. The level of zealousness for some RDS fanatics reminds me of the anti .40 crowd. Who gives a shit? Carry what you want and become proficient with it. Makes no sense to try to proselytize and convert people to what your preferences are. I do like my G45 with Trijicon RMS though. It has been a sweet setup for carry optics. I also carry it concealed on occasion. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:43:42 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm getting there, one at a time.
Question for the experienced. How do you set dot brightness? Daylight bright at all times? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:48:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Shooters choice.
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:49:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Gunnie357]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523: offense versus defense carry? In the case of Defense carry, forget anything that is running electrics, since when used, great deal of the time sights are not used in the first place. Same goes for CCW type rigs, where your talking concealed, and even the added mass of light on the gun just make is harder to conceal without printing. As for offensive weapon, RDS sight on the gun just makes it harder to deal with a moving target, such as adding in the needed lead (why RDS on a shotgun for moving targets does not work. Hell, in regards to LEO, reaction time on a target when your life is in danger, still work by the front sight on target rule to begin with. Then you get into the reliability of the RDS itself, that when it goes bad, and you do not have back up sights, your pretty much screwed. Don't get me wrong, since I do run optics on unlimited class pistols for match use, but for real life carry pistols, use the unlimited/10L class rules instead. Hence MPF rules so pistol does do enough damage in the first place on target, and running iron sights that you don't have to worry about failing at any time, since again, if defense situation, if only going to be using the front site for the phone booth type distance in play. Simply, try to come out of a CCW holster with either of these (while getting your shirt out of the way, so you snag the gun on it on the way out to slow you down even more), https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/200145/IMG_2056_jpeg-3211852.JPG Where is not seconds, but micro seconds that counts isntead. I’m not following the lead part with a RDS not being good for a moving target. A RDS means you place dot on the target and press, with irons your now moving two things keeping them aligned while following same target and press. Both do it just like both do it with people who have a RDS on a rifle. I agree the front sight on target press will work at generally accepted distances but so will the red dot. You can also still use the front sight on target or transition to traditional irons if you prefer. Just having a dot doesn’t preclude the use of irons. As for snagging on the draw in a concealed carry type role that goes back to training with your equipment, shooters have been fumbling draws and snagging guns in clothing since people started carrying them. People should carry whatever they are willing to carry and train with it and anything they choose will likely be sufficient. It has far more to do with the mindset and ability than the equipment people have guarded against evil with five shot snubbies for decades and did fine. Just like 9mm vs 45 or, Glock vs 1911 will get you killed now the irons guys say an optic will and the optics guys say irons will. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 7:51:40 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: More people need to grapple with their carry guns. If you haven't practiced drawing with one hand while being punched in the head then you don't know what you don't know. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:03:35 AM EDT
[#16]
You cant shoot your gun at night with irons without disgustingly emitting all over.
. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:04:46 AM EDT
[#17]
If a person doesnt want to use a RDS on a pistol it doesnt matter to me. The bigger question is; is the person training in some form with the sighing system they've chosen?
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:19:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: I’m guessing your “real world gunfight distance” is within arms length. I’m just going to start carrying a sword because of these ranges listed for gunfights. More damage faster. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:29:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: I’m just going to start carrying a sword because of these ranges listed for gunfights. More damage faster. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: I’m guessing your “real world gunfight distance” is within arms length. I’m just going to start carrying a sword because of these ranges listed for gunfights. More damage faster. There’s a cool thread for that already to help buy Japanese swords |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:33:12 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: I only come out at night. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By S-1: Ok. I take it that you haven't trained at night. Carry on. I only come out at night.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:36:13 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: To be fair I think you should also post a video of Jerry shooting an El prez if your posting videos of Stoeger. That was also my second match ever using moon clips. When I'm just working on reloads now I can get down to 2.5 sec shot to shot with a reload. I thought you’d come back with that and yeah that’s fair. Jerry can probably reload in under a second. But as far as people of average or even better than average skill…Sub 1.5 second reloads are pretty common in the semi auto world though. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:37:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: You cant shoot your gun at night with irons without disgustingly emitting all over. . My world doesn't involve the need for me taking precision pistol shots at distance with a handgun at nightin unlite areas. At night, my world involves the need for me to have a well concealed and non-cumbersome pistol that if I need to draw I can do so and hit at the close range point shooting that setting will be. LEO'S and 3 gunners have different mission statements for the gun on their hip, than I do. As do range target practice shooters - all of whome can benefit from the RDS. In my scenarios the extra bulk and snag undermine my style of CHL, and maintance care involving an electrically illuminated exposed glass system, are a trade-off for beneifits I wont likely be using. In a weapon system where headshots at 25 yards and multiple headshots ASAP, is not what I am going to using it for. Seeing rarely used lint filled RDS from the more layman shooter isn't the same as seeing a GrandMaster shaving seconds. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:39:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TW200]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: I have a 22/45, a gen 3 19, and a .40 2011 Limited division gun that don't have a dot. Everything else does, including my carry gun. I should get a cheap dot on my 22/45.   |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:41:45 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/188236/1000014214_jpg-3212300.JPG 
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:42:44 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: My world doesn't involve the need for me taking precision pistol shots at distance with a handgun at nightin unlite areas. Sounds lame. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:44:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Sounds lame. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: My world doesn't involve the need for me taking precision pistol shots at distance with a handgun at nightin unlite areas. Sounds lame. Its a world I don't want to live in. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:47:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Its a world I don't want to live in. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Originally Posted By RustedAce: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: My world doesn't involve the need for me taking precision pistol shots at distance with a handgun at nightin unlite areas. Sounds lame. Its a world I don't want to live in. 
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:50:00 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523: offense versus defense carry? In the case of Defense carry, forget anything that is running electrics, since when used, great deal of the time sights are not used in the first place. Same goes for CCW type rigs, where your talking concealed, and even the added mass of light on the gun just make is harder to conceal without printing. As for offensive weapon, RDS sight on the gun just makes it harder to deal with a moving target, such as adding in the needed lead (why RDS on a shotgun for moving targets does not work. Hell, in regards to LEO, reaction time on a target when your life is in danger, still work by the front sight on target rule to begin with. Then you get into the reliability of the RDS itself, that when it goes bad, and you do not have back up sights, your pretty much screwed. Don't get me wrong, since I do run optics on unlimited class pistols for match use, but for real life carry pistols, use the unlimited/10L class rules instead. Hence MPF rules so pistol does do enough damage in the first place on target, and running iron sights that you don't have to worry about failing at any time, since again, if defense situation, if only going to be using the front site for the phone booth type distance in play. Simply, try to come out of a CCW holster with either of these (while getting your shirt out of the way, so you snag the gun on it on the way out to slow you down even more), https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/200145/IMG_2056_jpeg-3211852.JPG Where is not seconds, but micro seconds that counts isntead. Wow. This is worthless. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:52:59 AM EDT
[#29]
My Roland has an ACRO, I love it and it's legit.
My carry gun still has irons. It's a 43x. Putting an Acro on that would print pretty badly. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:53:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TW200: As if you have a choice in the matter. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TW200: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: Originally Posted By RustedAce: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: My world doesn't involve the need for me taking precision pistol shots at distance with a handgun at nightin unlite areas. Sounds lame. Its a world I don't want to live in.  Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:54:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Nick_Adams]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SW-14: I’m all on board the RDS train, but after seeing several posters claiming the data backs up their advantages, I would be interested in seeing it. Post the science. Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges.  Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:55:46 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Sounds lame. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: My world doesn't involve the need for me taking precision pistol shots at distance with a handgun at nightin unlite areas. Sounds lame. The intent to take precision shots at distance at night on targets not actually identified well? Yes, indeed so. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:55:46 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Curdmugeon45: Wow. This is worthless. I did LOL too. Unlimited class? 10L? Neither exists. They’re called Limited and L10(Limited 10). When people flub basic details I tend to think they are not being honest. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:58:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges. Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. Go look at USPSA classifier stage hit factors, by division. THAT is real, controllable data, as real-world as it gets…. there isn’t any in the scenarios you put forward. The real data is there. You choose to dismiss it because it destroys your narrative. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:00:55 AM EDT
[#35]
You guys think this will work for defensive ranges?
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:01:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: The intent to take precision shots at distance at night on targets not actually identified well? Yes, indeed so. I identify my targets in 3 spectrums. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:03:03 AM EDT
[#37]
For thousands of years the debate between RDS and iron sights has continued. When will it ever end? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:04:05 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RustedAce: You guys think this will work for defensive ranges? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47980/IMG_4267-3212323.jpg Depends. Is that knife rocket propelled? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:13:15 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges. Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: Originally Posted By SW-14: I’m all on board the RDS train, but after seeing several posters claiming the data backs up their advantages, I would be interested in seeing it. Post the science. Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges. Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. Nick, I’m certain no such data exists. It would be very interesting to study “civilian” self defense shootings and break them down into groups. Iron sights shooter uninjured. Iron sights shooter wounded. Iron sights shooter killed. Iron sights suspect uninjured. Iron sights suspect injured. Iron sights suspect killed. Plus the same for dot sights. But when we toss out offensive gun use; cops, criminals, gangs there’s just not that many defensive shootings outside the home in the US. Before I retired I trained somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 cops. I’m proud that none of my students have ever been killed or injured by gunfire or prosecuted for their own uses of deadly force. Some of them use irons, some dots and staccato with dot seems to be all the rage. But mindset, reading people and marksmanship matters way more than irons vs dot. Cops of course are paid to seek out confrontations so their experiences are only loosely related to the “civilian” gun carrier. Cops fight isn’t over until the suspect is in handcuffs, jail or the hospital. My fights over when the criminal decides to pick a different target upon meeting unexpected level of resistance. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:21:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By madcap3k: I have a Glock 19 with rds I carry in my left hand and an sig p360 without sights carry on my right hip. I figure I'm right eye dominant so in a gunfight I'll need the rds for the gun in my left hand. I just point and shoot with the right hand. This way I'm covered for multiple ranges too. Long range I shoot with my left hand and right hand is for when they're up closer. Been in several simulated gunfights and this is what works best for me LOL!  WUT? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:28:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Nick, I’m certain no such data exists. It would be very interesting to study “civilian” self defense shootings and break them down into groups. Iron sights shooter uninjured. Iron sights shooter wounded. Iron sights shooter killed. Iron sights suspect uninjured. Iron sights suspect injured. Iron sights suspect killed. Plus the same for dot sights. But when we toss out offensive gun use; cops, criminals, gangs there’s just not that many defensive shootings outside the home in the US. Before I retired I trained somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 cops. I’m proud that none of my students have ever been killed or injured by gunfire or prosecuted for their own uses of deadly force. Some of them use irons, some dots and staccato with dot seems to be all the rage. But mindset, reading people and marksmanship matters way more than irons vs dot. Cops of course are paid to seek out confrontations so their experiences are only loosely related to the “civilian” gun carrier. Cops fight isn’t over until the suspect is in handcuffs, jail or the hospital. My fights over when the criminal decides to pick a different target upon meeting unexpected level of resistance. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By Nick_Adams: Originally Posted By SW-14: I’m all on board the RDS train, but after seeing several posters claiming the data backs up their advantages, I would be interested in seeing it. Post the science. Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges. Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. Nick, I’m certain no such data exists. It would be very interesting to study “civilian” self defense shootings and break them down into groups. Iron sights shooter uninjured. Iron sights shooter wounded. Iron sights shooter killed. Iron sights suspect uninjured. Iron sights suspect injured. Iron sights suspect killed. Plus the same for dot sights. But when we toss out offensive gun use; cops, criminals, gangs there’s just not that many defensive shootings outside the home in the US. Before I retired I trained somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 cops. I’m proud that none of my students have ever been killed or injured by gunfire or prosecuted for their own uses of deadly force. Some of them use irons, some dots and staccato with dot seems to be all the rage. But mindset, reading people and marksmanship matters way more than irons vs dot. Cops of course are paid to seek out confrontations so their experiences are only loosely related to the “civilian” gun carrier. Cops fight isn’t over until the suspect is in handcuffs, jail or the hospital. My fights over when the criminal decides to pick a different target upon meeting unexpected level of resistance. Quick Google Search for: "CHL Red dot encounter statistics vs irons", then set to image search. Basically... meh  Though again, that's 3-gun statistics, which involve speed holsters, lenses wiped, and fresh batteries; and don't account for draw hangups and slow-downs in the real world with the extra height and bulk. Run what you want - calling everyone else just fools for not running gee-whiz bulk and complexity that they aren't asking for is a bit much. The lady with the P365 and good RDS, shot my P7 with irons notably better than her P365 with the RDS. She's not you. But that's it, most people, aren't you. Most people shoot a lot less, practice a lot less, and just basically aren't as good. And a nice pleasant range day from the bench with a 2 second/shot limit under your tutelage, ain't the same thing. Get somebody afoot, and have them do draw and shoot from CHL level carry (safely), and doing so at variable distances from 3 to 10 yards, and with success criteria being 3 chest shots and not IDPA score-targets; and the RDS advantage fades fast for the unpracticed layman. While the occasional "how do I use this? why isn't this working? where's the dot I don't see it?" stoppage, gets noticed if you're willing to not just dismiss as "oh that doesn't count because..". RDS are great -run it. I may get one some day. They aren't the no-trade-offs improvement for everybody, that people in this thread act like. Personally, I think a modern ultra-light laser/light combo in front of the trigger guard (Which doesn't really add to the external dimensions), is a bit underappreciated and will do better at night. A green laser at night doesn't require the shooter to make sure that glass square is already well centered on target before the dot becomes visible. The one time I did a 3-gun night-shoot, lasers owned the night. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:29:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Nick, I’m certain no such data exists. It would be very interesting to study “civilian” self defense shootings and break them down into groups. Iron sights shooter uninjured. Iron sights shooter wounded. Iron sights shooter killed. Iron sights suspect uninjured. Iron sights suspect injured. Iron sights suspect killed. Plus the same for dot sights. But when we toss out offensive gun use; cops, criminals, gangs there’s just not that many defensive shootings outside the home in the US. Before I retired I trained somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 cops. I’m proud that none of my students have ever been killed or injured by gunfire or prosecuted for their own uses of deadly force. Some of them use irons, some dots and staccato with dot seems to be all the rage. But mindset, reading people and marksmanship matters way more than irons vs dot. Cops of course are paid to seek out confrontations so their experiences are only loosely related to the “civilian” gun carrier. Cops fight isn’t over until the suspect is in handcuffs, jail or the hospital. My fights over when the criminal decides to pick a different target upon meeting unexpected level of resistance. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By Nick_Adams: Originally Posted By SW-14: I’m all on board the RDS train, but after seeing several posters claiming the data backs up their advantages, I would be interested in seeing it. Post the science. Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges. Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. Nick, I’m certain no such data exists. It would be very interesting to study “civilian” self defense shootings and break them down into groups. Iron sights shooter uninjured. Iron sights shooter wounded. Iron sights shooter killed. Iron sights suspect uninjured. Iron sights suspect injured. Iron sights suspect killed. Plus the same for dot sights. But when we toss out offensive gun use; cops, criminals, gangs there’s just not that many defensive shootings outside the home in the US. Before I retired I trained somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 cops. I’m proud that none of my students have ever been killed or injured by gunfire or prosecuted for their own uses of deadly force. Some of them use irons, some dots and staccato with dot seems to be all the rage. But mindset, reading people and marksmanship matters way more than irons vs dot. Cops of course are paid to seek out confrontations so their experiences are only loosely related to the “civilian” gun carrier. Cops fight isn’t over until the suspect is in handcuffs, jail or the hospital. My fights over when the criminal decides to pick a different target upon meeting unexpected level of resistance. Okay, good points. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:40:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Nick_Adams]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Quick Google Search for: "CHL Red dot encounter statistics vs irons", then set to image search. Basically... meh https://i0.wp.com/www.tierthreetactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Red-Dot-vs-Irons.png?resize=1068%2C503&ssl=1 Though again, that's 3-gun statistics, which involve speed holsters, lenses wiped, and fresh batteries; and don't account for draw hangups and slow-downs in the real world with the extra height and bulk. Run what you want - calling everyone else just fools for not running gee-whiz bulk and complexity that they aren't asking for is a bit much. The lady with the P365 and good RDS, shot my P7 with irons notably better than her P365 with the RDS. She's not you. But that's it, most people, aren't you. Most people shoot a lot less, practice a lot less, and just basically aren't as good. And a nice pleasant range day from the bench with a 2 second/shot limit under your tutelage, ain't the same thing. Get somebody afoot, and have them do draw and shoot from CHL level carry (safely), and doing so at variable distances from 3 to 10 yards, and with success criteria being 3 chest shots and not IDPA score-targets; and the RDS advantage fades fast for the unpracticed layman. While the occasional "how do I use this? why isn't this working? where's the dot I don't see it?" stoppage, gets noticed if you're willing to not just dismiss as "oh that doesn't count because..". RDS are great -run it. I may get one some day. They aren't the no-trade-offs improvement for everybody, that people in this thread act like. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Originally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By Nick_Adams: Originally Posted By SW-14: I’m all on board the RDS train, but after seeing several posters claiming the data backs up their advantages, I would be interested in seeing it. Post the science. Yeah, I asked for the data twice, but yet - fully 6 pages into this thread - the “RDS Faucis” have sadly failed to post any links to real-world defensive shootings to support their preaching about RDS superiority over irons in that context. And particularly data NOT involving only L.E. or Mil engagements since L.E. and Mil folk are mission based, as another poster already pointed out. Nope, show us the data on civilian SD shootings where the legally-armed civilian - at a gas station, carry-out, or Walmart parking lot - “lost” a gunfight because he engaged at or inside 25-feet with an iron-sighted pistol instead of one topped with an RDS. Don’t want to hear about impressive “split times” racked up by all the IPSC/IDPA commandoes on lazy Sunday afternoons on their well-manicured Club ranges. Post up the real-world shooting data, my dudes. …. Prove me wrong. Nick, I’m certain no such data exists. It would be very interesting to study “civilian” self defense shootings and break them down into groups. Iron sights shooter uninjured. Iron sights shooter wounded. Iron sights shooter killed. Iron sights suspect uninjured. Iron sights suspect injured. Iron sights suspect killed. Plus the same for dot sights. But when we toss out offensive gun use; cops, criminals, gangs there’s just not that many defensive shootings outside the home in the US. Before I retired I trained somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 cops. I’m proud that none of my students have ever been killed or injured by gunfire or prosecuted for their own uses of deadly force. Some of them use irons, some dots and staccato with dot seems to be all the rage. But mindset, reading people and marksmanship matters way more than irons vs dot. Cops of course are paid to seek out confrontations so their experiences are only loosely related to the “civilian” gun carrier. Cops fight isn’t over until the suspect is in handcuffs, jail or the hospital. My fights over when the criminal decides to pick a different target upon meeting unexpected level of resistance. Quick Google Search for: "CHL Red dot encounter statistics vs irons", then set to image search. Basically... meh https://i0.wp.com/www.tierthreetactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Red-Dot-vs-Irons.png?resize=1068%2C503&ssl=1 Though again, that's 3-gun statistics, which involve speed holsters, lenses wiped, and fresh batteries; and don't account for draw hangups and slow-downs in the real world with the extra height and bulk. Run what you want - calling everyone else just fools for not running gee-whiz bulk and complexity that they aren't asking for is a bit much. The lady with the P365 and good RDS, shot my P7 with irons notably better than her P365 with the RDS. She's not you. But that's it, most people, aren't you. Most people shoot a lot less, practice a lot less, and just basically aren't as good. And a nice pleasant range day from the bench with a 2 second/shot limit under your tutelage, ain't the same thing. Get somebody afoot, and have them do draw and shoot from CHL level carry (safely), and doing so at variable distances from 3 to 10 yards, and with success criteria being 3 chest shots and not IDPA score-targets; and the RDS advantage fades fast for the unpracticed layman. While the occasional "how do I use this? why isn't this working? where's the dot I don't see it?" stoppage, gets noticed if you're willing to not just dismiss as "oh that doesn't count because..". RDS are great -run it. I may get one some day. They aren't the no-trade-offs improvement for everybody, that people in this thread act like. Thanks posting that chart. About what I suspected. Under conditions of a street confrontation occurring at real-world distances, there wouldn’t be enough of a difference to make a difference as between irons and RDSs. Again, civilians DF engagements. Situational awareness, mindset, and having trained regularly with your (iron-sighted) EDC pistol would decide the outcome. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:47:11 AM EDT
[#44]
I have irons. I think rds are better. Gotta find a slide that it milled
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:51:53 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JBecker_72: Just do it https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/200145/IMG_2056_jpeg-3211852.JPG One of these days I'll get my 43 milled. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 10:05:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Gunnie357]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: Thanks posting that chart. About what I suspected. Under conditions of a street confrontation occurring at real-world distances, there wouldn’t be enough of a difference to make a difference as between irons and RDSs. Again, civilians DF engagements. Situational awareness, mindset, and having trained regular with your (iron-sighted) EDC pistol would decide the outcome. I agree with SA, mindset, training will make more of a difference than equipment. I still however ask what the real world distance is when we have basically no data to go off of to say. The only person I know on the civilian side who’s kept track is Tom Givens and his data only represents something like 70 shootings which is fantastic and hope he can continue tracking it. Even then there’s like five percent occurrence at 15-25yds. The other data points often given to cite distances is derived from LE data some is good some really tells us nothing about the fight. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 10:06:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By anesvick: You were probably that dude next to me at the range whose five yard target looked like a 25 yard shotgun pattern that was extolling the virtues of RDS on a pistol to his girlfriend. Sorry if I embarrassed you.  Top, 25 yards, rapid fire, 92fs Mid 10 yards very rapid fire CZ P10C Bottom 25 yards slow fire P10C https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/249379/1000004052_jpg-3211983.JPG |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 10:20:28 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523: offense versus defense carry? In the case of Defense carry, forget anything that is running electrics, since when used, great deal of the time sights are not used in the first place. Same goes for CCW type rigs, where your talking concealed, and even the added mass of light on the gun just make is harder to conceal without printing. As for offensive weapon, RDS sight on the gun just makes it harder to deal with a moving target, such as adding in the needed lead (why RDS on a shotgun for moving targets does not work. Hell, in regards to LEO, reaction time on a target when your life is in danger, still work by the front sight on target rule to begin with. Then you get into the reliability of the RDS itself, that when it goes bad, and you do not have back up sights, your pretty much screwed. Don't get me wrong, since I do run optics on unlimited class pistols for match use, but for real life carry pistols, use the unlimited/10L class rules instead. Hence MPF rules so pistol does do enough damage in the first place on target, and running iron sights that you don't have to worry about failing at any time, since again, if defense situation, if only going to be using the front site for the phone booth type distance in play. Simply, try to come out of a CCW holster with either of these (while getting your shirt out of the way, so you snag the gun on it on the way out to slow you down even more), https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/200145/IMG_2056_jpeg-3211852.JPG Where is not seconds, but micro seconds that counts isntead. This is so fucked up I don’t even know where to start. I woke up with the intention of having a good day. We all were. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 10:27:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Irons will be left in the past. You kind of still need to know and understand them... You put an RDS on your pistol, go to the range. Get used to just pointing in the general direction and putting the dot on the target. Everything is cool. Then you go home... and it sits and the battery goes dead. Then you actually NEED to use it... so just put the target in the big window that doesn't have a dot anymore and hope? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 10:40:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AbleArcher]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By madmacs69: You kind of still need to know and understand them... You put an RDS on your pistol, go to the range. Get used to just pointing in the general direction and putting the dot on the target. Everything is cool. Then you go home... and it sits and the battery goes dead. Then you actually NEED to use it... so just put the target in the big window that doesn't have a dot anymore and hope? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By madmacs69: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: Irons will be left in the past. You kind of still need to know and understand them... You put an RDS on your pistol, go to the range. Get used to just pointing in the general direction and putting the dot on the target. Everything is cool. Then you go home... and it sits and the battery goes dead. Then you actually NEED to use it... so just put the target in the big window that doesn't have a dot anymore and hope? But according to some in this thread most people aren't going to use any sighting system if they actually NEED to use it anyway. ETA also, check your shit before you leave the house. Change your batteries on the solstices before you go kick it with the druids. |
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