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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:36:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Whiskey1Alpha: Gee, I wonder why that is, and how someone would go about fixing that....... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Whiskey1Alpha: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Gee, I wonder why that is, and how someone would go about fixing that....... Neither you, or any politician can or will fix that. Only individuals making personal choices on what to spend their limited income can fix that. Offer them something of good enough quality, that they want, at a price they can afford, with American made components and they may choose to buy it. Force them to pay a lot more for their own good.....and they will make their choice as well. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:36:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief.
I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:37:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: yea LIKE STEEL!!!! OH WAIT Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By C-4: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? Because what we are doing now as a country has worked out splendidly. We make more shit here than you could possibly imagine. yea LIKE STEEL!!!! OH WAIT Are you for real? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:38:42 PM EDT
[#4]
We used to build it all here. We can do it again. Make the rust belt great again.
Having everything we get come from China, when China is major asshole, is fucking stupid. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:40:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: I don't know if everyone realizes it but we beat the shit out of China on lots and lots of shit every day. We make a huge amount of shit here. Better shit than China in industries where it matters. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By RoccoOnFire: He should focus on improving the regulatory environment to be production friendly instead of levying taxes. I can understand some protective tariffs for domestic industries for national security purposes, but these basically blanket tariffs don't make a lot of sense without fixing other issues first. This is an area where "get both" applies. Some folks don't realize that there is no Chinese "private sector". All businesses are owned by the Chicoms. As such, they can choose to undercut any price in any industry in order to drive competitors out. And, they have done just that in many industries. Our private sector cannot compete with their CCP owned businesses since the playing field is not level. Until that is corrected, our industries will continue to atrophy and our manufacturing jobs will not return. So, it's not *just* our regulatory environment that (desperately) needs to be fixed but the entire competitive environment that needs to be fixed. I don't know if everyone realizes it but we beat the shit out of China on lots and lots of shit every day. We make a huge amount of shit here. Better shit than China in industries where it matters. We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:40:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: yea LIKE STEEL!!!! OH WAIT Don't worry. He ALWAYS slings that line out in these "discussions" but can never back it up with facts and statistics. He has never and will never change his mind. The programming is permanent. Look at all the American made car batteries!! |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:40:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. This, all those other countries have tariffs on our goods. They just don't call them tariffs. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:42:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Tariffs are driving imports to Mexico then cross-border to the U.S.
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:42:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:44:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. |
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SGP
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:45:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jacon: Tariffs are driving imports to Mexico then cross-border to the U.S. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:50:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Are you for real? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By C-4: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? Because what we are doing now as a country has worked out splendidly. We make more shit here than you could possibly imagine. yea LIKE STEEL!!!! OH WAIT Are you for real? ARE YOU, is the more appropriate question. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:50:54 PM EDT
[#13]
You think medical care is expensive now? Make everything imported significantly more expensive, that should be the death blow. We use TONS of imported stuff in hospitals everyday.
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:54:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:54:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Primetime_1: You think medical care is expensive now? Make everything imported significantly more expensive, that should be the death blow. We use TONS of imported stuff in hospitals everyday. Anybody who thinks we need to keep buying china is nuts. Its gotta stop somehow. FML |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:55:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phatmax: Don't worry. He ALWAYS slings that line out in these "discussions" but can never back it up with facts and statistics. He has never and will never change his mind. The programming is permanent. Look at all the American made car batteries!! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phatmax: Originally Posted By Lug1: yea LIKE STEEL!!!! OH WAIT Don't worry. He ALWAYS slings that line out in these "discussions" but can never back it up with facts and statistics. He has never and will never change his mind. The programming is permanent. Look at all the American made car batteries!! We make lots of steel. Just not low cost crap steel. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:56:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Primetime_1: You think medical care is expensive now? Make everything imported significantly more expensive, that should be the death blow. We use TONS of imported stuff in hospitals everyday. Yep. Because relying on supplies from countries to perform basic care to specialized care is the best longterm solution. God help us if those supply lines are ever interrupted by disaster, war, politics or quality. Maybe we should get back to making those things here while overseas supplies are still available. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:57:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: We make lots of steel. Just not low cost crap steel. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:58:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VeryAverage: Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VeryAverage: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 8:58:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: ARE YOU, is the more appropriate question. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By C-4: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? Because what we are doing now as a country has worked out splendidly. We make more shit here than you could possibly imagine. yea LIKE STEEL!!!! OH WAIT Are you for real? ARE YOU, is the more appropriate question. Do you really not know we make lots of steel here? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:00:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: We don't make near the steel we used to. And your comment is disingenuous. LOL. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: We make lots of steel. Just not low cost crap steel. So you lied and said we don't make steel and now we do but not enough. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:01:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Do you really not know we make lots of steel here? You think the steel industry is what it used to be here, you are full of it. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:02:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: So you lied and said we don't make steel and now we do but not enough. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:03:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: No you are trolling. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: So you lied and said we don't make steel and now we do but not enough. You lied and I'm guilty. Got it. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:03:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: So you lied and said we don't make steel and now we do but not enough. Never had an issue with you til now. I did not lie and you just did. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:04:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lug1]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: You lied and I'm guilty. Got it. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:05:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:06:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. Bullshit. Show me the small UAS motor companies in the US. Show me the companies that make rare earth magnets for those motors in the US. Show me the companies that manufacture electronic speed controllers that drive those motors in the US. Show me the companies that make accelerometers and magnetometers here. This is because the communist Chinese government decided they wanted to destroy our ability to compete in those industries by driving those companies out of business by state absorption of the losses associated with selling those items at a cost below production cost. The problem is that we don't (and can't by definition) have mutually beneficial transactions with communist countries. Even inveterate free-trader Milton Friedman agreed their are times when tariffs might be necessary. For example, "First is the national security argument--the argument that a thriving domestic steel industry, for example, is needed for defense. Although that argument is more often a rationalization for particular tariffs than a valid reason for them, it cannot be denied that on occasion it might justify the maintenance of otherwise uneconomical productive facilities." The problem that we have is that we have allowed the Chicoms to essentially take over many industries and push US manufacturers out of business. The only way to compete with communist state supported industries is to apply tariffs that level the playing field and restrict imports of their products in proportion to their restrictions on importing our products. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:06:58 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: I said like ohh wait. I never said we don't make steel. That puts you the LIAR with this post, and you need to watch your mouth kiddo about you call a liar. Never had an issue with you til now. I did not lie and you just did. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lug1: Originally Posted By batmanacw: So you lied and said we don't make steel and now we do but not enough. Never had an issue with you til now. I did not lie and you just did. Get over yourself. Im arguing for real solutions and everyone else just wants more powerful government. I'm seriously blown away. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:08:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Bullshit. Show me the small UAS motor companies in the US. Show me the companies that make rare earth magnets for those motors in the US. Show me the companies that manufacture electronic speed controllers that drive those motors in the US. Show me the companies that make accelerometers and magnetometers here. This is because the communist Chinese government decided they wanted to destroy our ability to compete in those industries by driving those companies out of business by state absorption of the losses associated with selling those items at a cost below production cost. The problem is that we don't (and can't by definition) have mutually beneficial transactions with communist countries. Even inveterate free-trader Milton Friedman agreed their are times when tariffs might be necessary. For example, "First is the national security argument--the argument that a thriving domestic steel industry, for example, is needed for defense. Although that argument is more often a rationalization for particular tariffs than a valid reason for them, it cannot be denied that on occasion it might justify the maintenance of otherwise uneconomical productive facilities." The problem that we have is that we have allowed the Chicoms to essentially take over many industries and push US manufacturers out of business. The only way to compete with communist state supported industries is to apply tariffs that level the playing field and restrict imports of their products in proportion to their restrictions on importing our products. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. Bullshit. Show me the small UAS motor companies in the US. Show me the companies that make rare earth magnets for those motors in the US. Show me the companies that manufacture electronic speed controllers that drive those motors in the US. Show me the companies that make accelerometers and magnetometers here. This is because the communist Chinese government decided they wanted to destroy our ability to compete in those industries by driving those companies out of business by state absorption of the losses associated with selling those items at a cost below production cost. The problem is that we don't (and can't by definition) have mutually beneficial transactions with communist countries. Even inveterate free-trader Milton Friedman agreed their are times when tariffs might be necessary. For example, "First is the national security argument--the argument that a thriving domestic steel industry, for example, is needed for defense. Although that argument is more often a rationalization for particular tariffs than a valid reason for them, it cannot be denied that on occasion it might justify the maintenance of otherwise uneconomical productive facilities." The problem that we have is that we have allowed the Chicoms to essentially take over many industries and push US manufacturers out of business. The only way to compete with communist state supported industries is to apply tariffs that level the playing field and restrict imports of their products in proportion to their restrictions on importing our products. So.....do I need to go through the millions of things we do make here? Would you be moved at all? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:09:34 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? You are the one who should be embarrassed if you think for a millisecond that ChinaIsAsshoe has a free market or is a free market participant. A "basic understanding of economics" would tell anyone that communist governments that rely on forced labor are not competing in or with a free market. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:10:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gspointer: I think everyone gets that. I think it’s worth it to manufacture stuff here again. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gspointer: Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Everyone should understand that all tariffs are paid by the end consumer. There is nothing to celebrate here. I think everyone gets that. I think it’s worth it to manufacture stuff here again. No ones going to build new manufacturing bases in the US when they know those tariffs are going to disappear in 4 years & they’ll be left dangling. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:11:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThornBooger: China is our enemy. That you are apparently in bed with them is your problem. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:11:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Consigli: In before someone cries that their iPhone will cost $10,000 because of Trump. competition says someone will build something cheaper buy that instead |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:12:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: So.....do I need to go through the millions of things we do make here? Would you be moved at all? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. Bullshit. Show me the small UAS motor companies in the US. Show me the companies that make rare earth magnets for those motors in the US. Show me the companies that manufacture electronic speed controllers that drive those motors in the US. Show me the companies that make accelerometers and magnetometers here. This is because the communist Chinese government decided they wanted to destroy our ability to compete in those industries by driving those companies out of business by state absorption of the losses associated with selling those items at a cost below production cost. The problem is that we don't (and can't by definition) have mutually beneficial transactions with communist countries. Even inveterate free-trader Milton Friedman agreed their are times when tariffs might be necessary. For example, "First is the national security argument--the argument that a thriving domestic steel industry, for example, is needed for defense. Although that argument is more often a rationalization for particular tariffs than a valid reason for them, it cannot be denied that on occasion it might justify the maintenance of otherwise uneconomical productive facilities." The problem that we have is that we have allowed the Chicoms to essentially take over many industries and push US manufacturers out of business. The only way to compete with communist state supported industries is to apply tariffs that level the playing field and restrict imports of their products in proportion to their restrictions on importing our products. So.....do I need to go through the millions of things we do make here? Would you be moved at all? We make millions of McDonalds burgers here. So what? That does not change the fact that we have entire industries that cannot compete against state actors. Your refusal to even acknowledge that says a great deal about your head being stuck firmly in the sand. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:13:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Massive tariffs built American up until WW2. They work, it really isn't debatable unless you are pursuing an alternate agenda.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:14:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ThornBooger]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Trump's tariffs cost you money directly....he didn't negotiate. He just taxed us. Tax me harder daddy, Trump!  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By markmars: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Where you around when he was in office before? Trump uses the threat of tariffs as a negotiation tool. I'm not a fan of tariffs but don't pull your punches in negotiations. He'll impose a tariff and they come back to the negotiation table. Trump's tariffs cost you money directly....he didn't negotiate. He just taxed us. Tax me harder daddy, Trump! |
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ABW
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:14:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redfish86: Good Build shit in America. Fuck chy na Someone PLEASE explain to me how unions wouldn’t be onboard by supporting a POTUS who would bring more work to this country Because they listen to their "representatives" who blatantly lie to their faces. For some reason, unions love the left. Even though they're actually effing themselves. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:15:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. What does it say about a person who refuses to acknowledge that an enemy of the US is controlling what choices can be made here because they chose to drive companies out of business? |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:15:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: You are the one who should be embarrassed if you think for a millisecond that ChinaIsAsshoe has a free market or is a free market participant. A "basic understanding of economics" would tell anyone that communist governments that rely on forced labor are not competing in or with a free market. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? You are the one who should be embarrassed if you think for a millisecond that ChinaIsAsshoe has a free market or is a free market participant. A "basic understanding of economics" would tell anyone that communist governments that rely on forced labor are not competing in or with a free market. To say they are not part of the market is ridiculous. They don't play fair but we the people choose who we buy from every day. You don't like it, but either you come to the table in a competitive way or go do something else. Why do millions of American goods win over Chinese products every day? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:18:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway.  We never should have normalized relations with them in the first fucking place. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:19:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: What does it say about a person who refuses to acknowledge that an enemy of the US is controlling what choices can be made here because they chose to drive companies out of business? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. What does it say about a person who refuses to acknowledge that an enemy of the US is controlling what choices can be made here because they chose to drive companies out of business? It says you want control. You believe in the worst ideas of the collectivists and you don't even know it. I've offered solutions with less government and all you can do is offer more government. You don't even know why millions of manufacturing businesses thrive in spite of China. |
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ABW
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:21:16 PM EDT
[#43]
I agree with build here, buy here.
Also, we need more competition in THIS COUNTRY. That's why things built here are "expensive" as others say, because of all the BS companies HERE, IN THIS COUNTRY have to go through. Yet you can import the "same" [obviously lesser quality] product for cheaper. If people actually stuck together like they used to, we wouldn't have this issue. But they didn't/don't so we do. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:21:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThornBooger: You can't compete against countries using slave labor, unless you also use slave labor. We never should have normalized relations with them in the first fucking place. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: We do make a lot of stuff here still. I don't think that's the point. The point is that generally our industries can't compete when their government is willing to support their companies that can lose huge amounts of money for years and years until they drive competitors out of business. My wife worked for an outfit that was thinking of outsourcing to ChinaIsAsshoe. The Chinese basically told them they could get whatever level of quality they wanted, they just had to specify what that was. They provided price structures according to that as well. It was well below what they could produce the products for domestically even at the highest specification. Again, we have regulatory structures that unnecessarily hamstring our industries. But, our companies also cannot compete against state funded actors. We compete and win every day. You have been lied to. If China can make it so cheap then why try to complete on price? Either get more efficient or make better quality for higher end markets. You believe you can bring certain industries back here without being competitive and then tell a young family that they must pay a higher price on goods because it's good for them. The entire basis of economics is mutually beneficial, voluntary transactions. People making individual choices to spend hard earned dollars on scares goods. Those goods must cost more and come from your preferred sources. That changes the calculus for every individual in the country. The results are not as predictable as you believe and the preferred companies may fail anyway. We never should have normalized relations with them in the first fucking place. We kick the shit out of them daily on millions of products. Slave labor isn't efficient. Our workforce is much more efficient. How about we let them loose instead of placing chains on the consumer? |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:22:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. ^hey this guy knows everything apparently. The tariffs on China never materialized in higher prices for us. The commies stealing the election did though. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:22:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: To say they are not part of the market is ridiculous. They don't play fair but we the people choose who we buy from every day. You don't like it, but either you come to the table in a competitive way or go do something else. Why do millions of American goods win over Chinese products every day? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By VeryAverage: Anyone opposed is profoundly ignorant beyond all belief. I’ve been to China. Our goods are insanely overpriced there, well above and beyond what it is just in currency difference or logistics. Other countries have been and are charging extreme amounts for us to sell them goods, but then we give them sweetheart deals on their exports. I’d be in favor of a tit-for-tat system where we match another country’s tariffs. At this point, though, we need to seriously scale back the Chinese economy. We need to break them economically before it becomes necessary to do it militarily. They’re working on it and we’re fools for not fighting this trade war as if it’s a world war. So many logical fallacies that it's hard to find a starting point. Why do we live better lives than they do? Even our poor are rich compared to them. How is it even possible that any US businesses exist? Certain things are more difficult to offshore for various reasons. China is in an economic and production war with us. They are fighting us. You demand that we surrender. You’re a defeatist. Again with the complete lack of an basic understanding of economics. My solution is free market and based on individual choice. Your solution is bigger, more powerful government and increasing money to that government. Aren't you embarrassed? You are the one who should be embarrassed if you think for a millisecond that ChinaIsAsshoe has a free market or is a free market participant. A "basic understanding of economics" would tell anyone that communist governments that rely on forced labor are not competing in or with a free market. To say they are not part of the market is ridiculous. They don't play fair but we the people choose who we buy from every day. You don't like it, but either you come to the table in a competitive way or go do something else. Why do millions of American goods win over Chinese products every day? Go back and read what I wrote again. And then do it again. What part of "FREE MARKET" did you miss?
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:23:26 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Yes and no. Tariffs on their own are really stupid, economically speaking. They are really an indirect form of command economy. That said...there are national defense reasons not to do business with certain countries. I don't think we should increase tariffs on China per se...I think we should gradually embargo them. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:23:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. Better to let a communist government on the other side of the world that openly hates us and has massive tariffs against our goods decide for us, right comrade? |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:24:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: It says you want control. You believe in the worst ideas of the collectivists and you don't even know it. I've offered solutions with less government and all you can do is offer more government. You don't even know why millions of manufacturing businesses thrive in spite of China. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. What does it say about a person who refuses to acknowledge that an enemy of the US is controlling what choices can be made here because they chose to drive companies out of business? It says you want control. You believe in the worst ideas of the collectivists and you don't even know it. I've offered solutions with less government and all you can do is offer more government. You don't even know why millions of manufacturing businesses thrive in spite of China. So what happens when there is a major conflict between the US and China? Well, kinetic, since the US is already in a major cyber and fifth generation war with China. This may be difficult for those who never served a day in their life to contemplate. |
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Posted: 5/8/2024 9:24:12 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: It says you want control. You believe in the worst ideas of the collectivists and you don't even know it. I've offered solutions with less government and all you can do is offer more government. You don't even know why millions of manufacturing businesses thrive in spite of China. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By ThornBooger: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Originally Posted By cmmeur01: Originally Posted By batmanacw: Fucking stupid. Only a complete economic illiterate can support that. Much of what is built here has Chinese components. We will all pay billions in new taxes in the form of higher prices due to tariffs paid to the government. The higher prices are not helping anyone but to feed the government more money and power. Maybe we could you know build those components here? Guess that's just fucking stupid too? We need to start building back the manufacturing sector here at some point (shoulda never left but the FIRE types run the show). Are you familiar with the concept of a component meeting the requirements of the manufacturer and the price point necessary for the product to sell? You think you can force a company to buy much, much higher priced components just because, and you will not destroy that company with shear stupidity? You are the enemy of anyone who wants the freedom to choose without big government idiots controlling what choices can be made. You think you can control 300 million individuals and their choices. What does it say about a person who refuses to acknowledge that an enemy of the US is controlling what choices can be made here because they chose to drive companies out of business? It says you want control. You believe in the worst ideas of the collectivists and you don't even know it. I've offered solutions with less government and all you can do is offer more government. You don't even know why millions of manufacturing businesses thrive in spite of China. What horseshit. It says that you are willing to overlook communist Chinese state actors interfering in our market. You have no idea why many manufacturing industries are simply *GONE*. Ignorance is not bliss. |
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