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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:19:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pantexan: I thought it was a “forecastle” not a “focsile”. You'll see it spelled both ways. Fo'c'sile is the abbreviated shipboard colloquialism. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:19:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Just texted the question to my Maritime Engineer buddy. He was mainly on the Great Lakes but did some saltwater work.
He said: "Hard to say. After the emergency generator came on it shut off again almost immediately. That's the strange part." |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:22:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By webtaz99: Lack of proper maintenance. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:25:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Put me in the electrical issue camp as well.
Depending on how the electrical distribution on the ship is designed, I would guess they were running 2 of the diesel generators for electrical power + the main diesel for propulsion. If they had a main bus fault (ground, short or open) they could have easily lost the generator that was powering the critical infrastructure (fuel pumps, steering gear, etc.). Attempting to switch over to the other generator could have resulted in tripping both generators offline and leaving the ship without steering or the ability to utilize the bow thruster. The main engine might otherwise have still been operational but even with a back full bell, it takes time to slow the and reverse the shaft, and even more time and distance to slow and stop the ship. Maybe crappy maintenance, maybe just a complete fluke at the worst possible time, but to me it seems like a tragic accident. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:25:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Storm6436]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. Hopefully you were the one kick-ass Master Chief then. My 5 years at Second Fleet, the ITCM in my division was a legend in his own mind and the only other person who was probably impressed with him was the guy writing his EPR. He was the guy who spent 2 years ignoring my warnings about manning and then tried to illegally hire me under the table after I hit my EAOS to come back as a civvie contractor to fix all the shit I warned them about. The ISCM in J2 got caught balls deep in an uncleared E-3... in the SCIF chartroom by the rover because they'd propped the SCIF outer door open. The investigation that followed ate a number of careers because the thirsty bitch was banging two Chiefs (one of which was mine) , an E-6, a LCDR, and a few other officers. Quality leadership. Top. Men. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:37:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Storm6436: Hopefully you were the one kick-ass Master Chief then. My 5 years at Second Fleet, the ITCM in my division was a legend in his own mind and the only other person who was probably impressed with him was the guy writing his EPR. He was the guy who spent 2 years ignoring my warnings about manning and then tried to illegally hire me under the table after I hit my EAOS to come back as a civvie contractor to fix all the shit I warned them about. The ISCM in J2 got caught balls deep in an uncleared E-3... in the SCIF chartroom by the rover because they'd propped the SCIF outer door open. The investigation that followed ate a number of careers because the thirsty bitch was banging two Chiefs (one of which was mine) , an E-6, a LCDR, and a few other officers. Quality leadership. Top. Men. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Storm6436: Originally Posted By Paul: Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. Hopefully you were the one kick-ass Master Chief then. My 5 years at Second Fleet, the ITCM in my division was a legend in his own mind and the only other person who was probably impressed with him was the guy writing his EPR. He was the guy who spent 2 years ignoring my warnings about manning and then tried to illegally hire me under the table after I hit my EAOS to come back as a civvie contractor to fix all the shit I warned them about. The ISCM in J2 got caught balls deep in an uncleared E-3... in the SCIF chartroom by the rover because they'd propped the SCIF outer door open. The investigation that followed ate a number of careers because the thirsty bitch was banging two Chiefs (one of which was mine) , an E-6, a LCDR, and a few other officers. Quality leadership. Top. Men. Did the E-3 join a Tennessee PD in the civilian world? 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:13:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: interesting. so fuel contamination is accounted for. No. Debris in the fuel is accounted for by the use of strainers and settling tanks There is nothing you can do about the chemistry of the fuel causing issues which is why fuel samples go through analysis prior to delivery Something can still be introduced into the fuel to contaminate it between the refinery and delivery including something in the tanks of the bunker barge itself That's the extent of my knowledge on it and I'm no chemist that's for sure |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:17:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GilTPayne: This being said, there are simple to use for the laymen, and I assume much more complex and powerful programs for the competent hacker that allow you to search for open systems, and allow you to take control. Baby monitors, home HVAC controls, Building electrical systems, Power Plants, factories. Is that what happened here? I have *no* clue, I do know that we are in a cold war with at least a dozen, highly competent nation states, who all have the ability and motive to do this. Teams of people just probing all day and making lists of easily penetrated targets. What does occams razor say to you? Me, I am going to keep an open mind and see what the future patterns look like. There isn't an open wifi access point into the ship's automation system for some war driver on the Baltimore shore to click "turn off ship's power" like a 90s hacker movie |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:24:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Engines quit?
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:27:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Superluckycat: Just texted the question to my Maritime Engineer buddy. He was mainly on the Great Lakes but did some saltwater work. He said: "Hard to say. After the emergency generator came on it shut off again almost immediately. That's the strange part." If he is basing that on the appearance of the bridge lights, keep in mind these low draw circuits on the E bus are usually battery backed. They will run whether the EDG is operating or not. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:38:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Reaper: I'm not a bridge engineer. Is it normal to build a bridge in such a way that knocking out one support dominoes the entire thing? Yes. It always has been. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:38:31 PM EDT
[#12]
There are probably more people on the bridge of one of our aircraft carriers than in the entire crew of the MV Dali. No such thing as rapid response to emergencies. Not the first time tat ship has had an oops!
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:41:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By treelow: The ship isn’t even 10 years old. I'm sure the hull is still sound, but ten years is, really, a lifetime, from an electrical component corrosion standpoint. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:51:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Reaper: I'm not a bridge engineer. Is it normal to build a bridge in such a way that knocking out one support dominoes the entire thing? That's pretty much how all trusses work, take out one part and the rest crumbles. The boat hit the intersection of several different components, literally the worst spot |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:57:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gaweidert: There are probably more people on the bridge of one of our aircraft carriers than in the entire crew of the MV Dali. No such thing as rapid response to emergencies. Not the first time tat ship has had an oops! Crew is 22. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:00:45 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Crew is 22. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:04:10 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:24:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Morlawn66]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Thunder900: The Francis Key Bridge was completed 2 years before the Sunshine Skyway bridge disaster. Obviously they didn't reinforce the bridge or add in protective barriers like the new Florida bridge has. My complaint is don't they do some type of disaster risk assessment for different scenarios ? There are 100 year old bridge piers with better design than those . Aesthetically pleasing design with no thought of ship collisions . Driven H piles to water line with rip rap in fill to create artificial islands to deflect and dissipate collision forces . |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:13:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: There isn't an open wifi access point into the ship's automation system for some war driver on the Baltimore shore to click "turn off ship's power" like a 90s hacker movie Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: Originally Posted By GilTPayne: This being said, there are simple to use for the laymen, and I assume much more complex and powerful programs for the competent hacker that allow you to search for open systems, and allow you to take control. Baby monitors, home HVAC controls, Building electrical systems, Power Plants, factories. Is that what happened here? I have *no* clue, I do know that we are in a cold war with at least a dozen, highly competent nation states, who all have the ability and motive to do this. Teams of people just probing all day and making lists of easily penetrated targets. What does occams razor say to you? Me, I am going to keep an open mind and see what the future patterns look like. There isn't an open wifi access point into the ship's automation system for some war driver on the Baltimore shore to click "turn off ship's power" like a 90s hacker movie Is it your supposition that these ships are airgapped, 100% of the time? Or are you in agreement that they are connected to the net, in some way at some point of their journey? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:33:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Spider1]
[#20]
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:37:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: This is the purpose of an HFO settling tank Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: Originally Posted By AgeOne: If the tank had a bunch of crap settled at the bottom over years and they filled up in the port it could have disturbed the debris allowing it to get sucked up easier. that would make sense to me. This is the purpose of an HFO settling tank This. The settler typically gets filled once per day. A centrifugal separator then takes suction from the settler and fills the day tank continuously, with any excess intentionally overflowing back to the settler. The day tank feeds the engines. Typically, there are separate sets of tanks for generators and main propulsion. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:37:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: The 5G nanobots in the harbor pilots clot shot were hacked taking over his nervous system forcing him to ram into the bridge.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:54:17 PM EDT
[#23]
I bet it was somthing stupid like someone left the hose on and flooded a main buss bar or someshit.
probably a catastophic cross head bearing failure that yeeted the rod out the side and took out the gensets too! |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 11:55:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Teamer]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: No. Debris in the fuel is accounted for by the use of strainers and settling tanks There is nothing you can do about the chemistry of the fuel causing issues which is why fuel samples go through analysis prior to delivery Something can still be introduced into the fuel to contaminate it between the refinery and delivery including something in the tanks of the bunker barge itself That's the extent of my knowledge on it and I'm no chemist that's for sure That’s pretty much what happened to the Cathay Pacific Flight 780 A330 that became a glider and the got stuck on near max power when they got the engines relit a few years back. Fuel when delivered to the airport tanks passed the test. But they were doing expansion work at the airport which led to some fuel transfer lines from the holding area to the apron distro points being exposed to the elements allowing for water to get into the fuel. Multiple documentaries on it. Link to a video below. It is not out of the realm of the possible here for that scenario. Cathay Pacific Flight 780  “We Can’t Control the ENGINES!” The Nightmare of Cathay flight 780 |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 8:51:48 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DieselEngineer: This. The settler typically gets filled once per day. A centrifugal separator then takes suction from the settler and fills the day tank continuously, with any excess intentionally overflowing back to the settler. The day tank feeds the engines. Typically, there are separate sets of tanks for generators and main propulsion. Thanks fascinating, I would have never imagined there was so much going on with the fuel system, in my head it was just tanks distributed around the ship and pumped out in a way that allows the weight distribution to remain consistent. I also hadn't considered there was so much involved in filtration, I have no idea what their fuel supply looks like but I'd imagine its inconsistent quality between ports so having a good system to keep it clean would be required. Knowing what you know, how likely is it this was a fuel quality issue? |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 8:54:05 AM EDT
[#26]
In the wake of Boeing aircraft coming apart mid air, I will go with cost cutting by the owners.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:09:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillythePoet: Coming from a power plant, I'm shocked that a vessel that size doesn't have battery backup for critical systems, such as steering and navigation. I'm also ignorant to the abilities of a vessel that size, so maybe there is no steering without thrust? Was the power out longer that the bypass switch takes to go on backup power? It looked like it took longer than your switch takes which would tell a guy like me that doesn't really know anything about big boats that maybe the issue went beyond the engine shitting the bed due to bad fuel. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:32:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: I think we need a definition of dirty more precise than greater or lesser dirty. Is the cut off, "won't pass rat carcasses?" Enough rocks to fill a 55 gallon drum. An amazing amount of shop rags. Spill kit absorbing rags, often called diapers. Some kind of rubbery substance that was theorized to form after changing products caused old tank residues to come loose from tank walls and bottoms. Sample bottle. Ironically used to collect samples to check quality. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:34:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: The 5G nanobots in the harbor pilots clot shot were hacked taking over his nervous system forcing him to ram into the bridge. I KNEW it!!! |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:37:49 AM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:39:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GiveMeBackMyBullets: In the video you can see all the lights on the vessel go off, come back on, and then go off again just a few seconds before the bridge strike. Going to guess it ends up being some type of electrical system failure that inhibited the pilot’s ability to control the ship. Makes sense up to the u-turn. The u-turn is what’s sus. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:42:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperX925: Curious about the route those ships take getting to the port. I've looked at it on Google Earth and it appears that the shipping lane is under that bridge. But that ship appears too tall to go under it at any point. There are no secret ways to get in without going under that bridge. There are ways for a ship to leave taller going out than coming in due to loading or ballasting, tides, storm related tides, etc. A crane barge in the Houston ship channel hit a bridge while being in the correct channel because the crane wasn't lowered. I think it happened twice by the same barge. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:44:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By piperpa24: I think it was all part of Trump's dastardy plan to destroy democracy and take over the world. That ship did grab that bridge by the coochie so that makes sense. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:47:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZuoZongtang: One abject failure was protocol. Should have dropped anchor the second power went out. How come the captain's name hasn't been released? Why isn't he up in front of congress? Was any of the crew detained or arrested? How about maintenance records? Too many unanswered questions. I find it striking that from the first second this happened. It was called by all news Media outlets a Bridge collapse. Not a ship hitting a bridge. The important part of the disaster is bridge collapse. The cause was immediately reported as a ship hitting the bridge. Absolute tin foil to suggest media is covering up the ship's role in taking the bridge down when video showing that happen was what everyone was watching. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:54:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: Thanks fascinating, I would have never imagined there was so much going on with the fuel system, in my head it was just tanks distributed around the ship and pumped out in a way that allows the weight distribution to remain consistent. My ships fuel system isn't that complex, but there is a lot going on. Daytanks for machinery, storage tanks, overflow tanks, fuel oil purifiers, strainers and filters, and a variety of pumps and valves that can be configured a lot of different ways to get the go juice where it needs to be. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 10:13:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Reaper: I'm not a bridge engineer. Is it normal to build a bridge in such a way that knocking out one support dominoes the entire thing? Bridges that are designed specifically to span a wide channel to permit navigation or a deep canyon mean that the distance between the two supports on either side of the span is large. If you take out one of the supports, the bridge is falling. Various designs are used for large spans of obstacles. Suspension bridges using cables, steel truss bridges, etc. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 10:28:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eesmith: It's called a bridge collapse because the collapse is the main story, the ship hitting the bridge is noteworthy because it's the cause but ultimately secondary in importance and thus not the lede. The captain isn't in front of congress because it's only been like 48 hours and he's still on his ship stuck under the bridge and has all sorts of federal investigators stuffed up his ass, congress can hold off on the performative hearing sideshow for a bit. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 10:35:49 AM EDT
[#38]
Water in fuel
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 10:58:47 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By memsu: As an engineer too I'm curious as well. Seems like backup generators can't be used to steer ship. I thought these ships were like locomotives where it was diesel electric. In that case you could resort to backup gen power. I bet they have some electrical gremlin they haven't tracked down, but I bet they find it now. There are many aspects of steering a ship. In a single screw ship, you can't use variable screw thrust to help steer. Many commercial ships only have a single engine directly connected to a single screw. Many such designs have no gearbox, no clutch, no other power transmission between the engine and propeller. These are large, slow speed, two stroke diesel engines with the propeller directly connected to the engine and spinning at engine speed. Reverse means stopping the engine and starting the engine backwards. This us done with large amounts of compressed air. In a ship with a single screw, steering is overwhelming controlled by the rudder position and controlling that position. You have actuation power requirements to control the rudder. You have signals that must also reach the actuators. That's the mechanical, electrical, control part of steering. You also have the practical aspects of steering. Even if all technical aspects are functional, large ships are controlled by enormous forces and rudders may not be able to counter those forces with sufficient speed to avert a collision. Forward speed is important to rudder directional control. Directional control is very sluggish at low speeds. Running the engines in reverse can make directional control even worse. There are some ships with locomotive style power transmission. Most large cargo ships are not that style. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 11:01:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Houstons_Problem]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Competency crisis? I can say that while I wore Navy Master Chief boots I kicked a great deal of ass and motivated those around me to become better warriors. DEI, Didn't Earn It crisis is chomping at the bit to show the world just how fast everything everywhere falls the fuck apart. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 11:33:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: interesting. so fuel contamination is accounted for. Changing the fuel that an engine was designed to run on to something else can impact engine durability. Engine design can be modified to accommodate the fuel changes, but that mostly impacts new engines and even then it takes awhile for experience to show the problems. Heavy fuel oil is like tar at room temperature. Distillate fuel oils are substantially different. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 11:39:28 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 98Redline: Put me in the electrical issue camp as well. Depending on how the electrical distribution on the ship is designed, I would guess they were running 2 of the diesel generators for electrical power + the main diesel for propulsion. If they had a main bus fault (ground, short or open) they could have easily lost the generator that was powering the critical infrastructure (fuel pumps, steering gear, etc.). Attempting to switch over to the other generator could have resulted in tripping both generators offline and leaving the ship without steering or the ability to utilize the bow thruster. The main engine might otherwise have still been operational but even with a back full bell, it takes time to slow the and reverse the shaft, and even more time and distance to slow and stop the ship. Maybe crappy maintenance, maybe just a complete fluke at the worst possible time, but to me it seems like a tragic accident. Dirty fuel or engine problems usually mean engine shutdown and staying down for longer. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 11:51:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Cascading events or sabotage. I've read several account of the time line and conditions.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:18:15 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Morlawn66: My complaint is don't they do some type of disaster risk assessment for different scenarios ? There are 100 year old bridge piers with better design than those . Aesthetically pleasing design with no thought of ship collisions . Driven H piles to water line with rip rap in fill to create artificial islands to deflect and dissipate collision forces . Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Morlawn66: Originally Posted By Thunder900: The Francis Key Bridge was completed 2 years before the Sunshine Skyway bridge disaster. Obviously they didn't reinforce the bridge or add in protective barriers like the new Florida bridge has. My complaint is don't they do some type of disaster risk assessment for different scenarios ? There are 100 year old bridge piers with better design than those . Aesthetically pleasing design with no thought of ship collisions . Driven H piles to water line with rip rap in fill to create artificial islands to deflect and dissipate collision forces . They’re called “dolphins.” I don’t believe the Key bridge had them. The Sunshine Skyway bridge was rebuilt with dolphins after the 1980 collapse. IIRC there was a ship allision with the Key bridge not long after the Sunshine Skyway incident. MDTA for some reason didn’t take that as a warning to protect the piers. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:27:03 PM EDT
[#45]
The cause of the casualty is corporate greed, CEO pay, stock market returns, etc.
Which drive profits over everything else so schedule and on time deliveries and no delays are more important than maintenance, safety, repairs and expensive crews vs the cheapest crews you can hire Which leads to failures on boats which crash into bridges potentially The boat should not have left port from what I am hearing but I can guarantee you that there were not fewer than 50 People saying it needed to leave when it did I see this almost every day play out. I’m surprised this shit doesn’t happen more often than it does. Especially with commercial air travel If anything it is a testament to how well humans work under pressure with half the tools they need and can fix or avoid major accidents just due to sheer brain power |
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Posted: 4/6/2024 1:22:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Best analysis so far:
 What caused the Power Failure : The Dali Incident |
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