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Posted: 3/18/2024 12:33:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zephyr: It's a $30 caliper. You may find this surprising. I took a set of cheap Hornady calipers to a USAF PMEL once as a joke and had them checked on their ceramic block things. I was there with an inspection team doing a compliance inspection. The $35 Hornady calipers passed all requirements and the kids even put a PMEL sticker on the box as a joke. My point is, OP’s calipers are likely fine. The issue you have with calipers or any hand measurement tool is operator error. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 12:43:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ridgerunner9876]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mudholestomper: Weird how you’re so great with accuracy but want to LOL when you remove the context of what you’re quoting and say something that’s incorrect in response to what you didn’t include in your quote. I responded (correctly) to the information that you included in your post. You responded incorrectly to the information that you included in your post. Wait…the “I have a handle on measurements” guy isn’t expecting us to assume anything from the information he didn’t include, right? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mudholestomper: Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Originally Posted By mudholestomper: Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Originally Posted By green_bullet: The 0.00045 variance on either end from the theoretical cartridge is to account for different manufactuers? Chamber has to physically be bigger than the cartridge if only by a hair, as it is not a close slip-fit That's almost four thousandths, not ten thousandths. About 3 hairs, total, actually. I'd say that is a loose chamber, if your calipers are correct. Inexpensive calipers are notorious for ID readings being off. Do you have any known ID to use as a master? 0.00045 is 45 ten thousandths. Almost four thousandths? If a positive number starts with a four followed by a 5, it’s more than four. LOL. I have a handle on measurement in thousandths of an inch. Go back and read the measurement OP posted and the nominal cartridge dimension. It is almost .008 different. The poster I quoted listed .00045 per side difference. It should have been .004 depending on which dimension set was used as the calipers were showing different ones. Weird how you’re so great with accuracy but want to LOL when you remove the context of what you’re quoting and say something that’s incorrect in response to what you didn’t include in your quote. I responded (correctly) to the information that you included in your post. You responded incorrectly to the information that you included in your post. Wait…the “I have a handle on measurements” guy isn’t expecting us to assume anything from the information he didn’t include, right? Try again. The other guy got it. The man claiming .00045/ side was the clearance OP was measuring was incorrect. I said it was close to .004 depending on which measurements you wanted to use. You, somehow, dragged out of that , that I didnt know how to read decimals. OP cartridge diagram listed .425. ID readings of .434 and .432. That poster said .00045 /side clearance presumably using the .434 number with is .009 or .0045/side and misstating the difference. I used the mean of .433 and stated the clearance was close to .004/side, explaining he was a decimal point off. Where upon you jumped with both feet claiming that somehow I was confused. This reminds me of a Mr.Higgs thread. I've done this for a living since '86 and for myself since 92. Re reading your post, I can see how you got confused. I was not completely clear because I mixed simply correcting his .00045 to .0045, with correcting to the mean of .008 total clearance and listed "nearly .004". Yes, 45 tenths are almost fifty millionths and yet much smaller than almost half a hundredth, but nearly identical to a hundredth of a mm. Gotta love them decimal measurments |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 12:49:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryThis, since first off wouldn't trust the cheap calipers as far as I could throw them, and even with starrett calipers, still not the way you measure ID surface, since different pressure on the wheel, is going to give different readings. Hence if you think that the chamber is over sized, then do a casting, and messure the casting. Next, Really giving no detail on the bullet, be it copper jacket, copper plated, poly coated, or just waxed (which you never run throught a tennifer barrel since it will lead the hell out of it quick), much less the OD size of the bullet. Hence if jacketed bullet, then od should be .401", while if the other than that, the bullet needs to be in the .402~.403" range before it going to hold onto the rifling down the bore. and with say a 10mm pistol that your pushing cast round, lead needs to be at a hell of lot harder than lyman #2 hardness. As for loads, once the above is correct, then need to work it up, since at some point will be just trying to push the bullet too fast, and its not going to group well from this alone. The last one, gives us no idea if you can shoot tight groups for an auto to begin with (and from a 10mm, than that FBI had to switch to 40cal (10mm lights before that) so most of the personal could qualify to begin with), or just your typical revolver shoot that is still fighting the slide recoil. Bottom line, go find a match shooter and let him run a few mags of decent factory jacket pointed rounds through the pistol, to see if it you/ the reloads the problem, or the pistol instead. Glocks are not known for their match type accuracy, but should be able to print better than a 3" group at piston range with stock trigger pull weights, right out of the box once cleaned correctly. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:08:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spasm: Lol epic thread. Op refuses to buy a few boxes of inexpensive factory ammo to rule out his poor reloads. Op creates new epic copy pasta. This thread keeps on giving. Not refusing but buying ammo here is not like walking into a Walmart and buying a box. I started this thread last night, work until 7pm tonight, won’t be able to buy a box and shoot it until next week. Sorry. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:20:00 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mblades: I don’t see a group of generals standing and watching in awe of your shooting ability like the story. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mblades: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By 03RN: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By SemperGumbi: Originally Posted By rabidus: Never got an award for pistol. I was at MCRD or Pendleton back in ‘08 for an educator workshop. Got to shoot the simulator. It was fun, for the pistol range, one of the Marines asked if I needed a tutorial, told him, “thanks but I got it..” Started shooting, all shots were hitting COM and head shots. Ran 2-3 mags through it and the room got quieter, heads started to turn over, granted, these are teachers so not much to talk about. Got done. Stopped for a second, looked around and the entire room was watching me. A major and a colonel were watching and smiled. 2 young Marines pushed some teachers aside and said, we got this…they shot 1/2 a mag, shot like shit, and moved away from the line. A few people in the room said, “Damn” As I passed the officers, the Major gave me a nod. I don’t shoot competition, I’m sure many can beat me but at the range, I only met 1 other person who could outshoot me with a pistol, he won awards in the Army pistol competition. So I’m no Jerry Miculek by any stretch but I’m also not a slack jawed basement dweller. OMG it is sad that you would write something like this about yourself. You need to get out of your own head once in awhile.  GD, “Your groups suck because you cannot shoot!” “That’s rifle, where are your pistol scores?” “Some people should not own guns” “In all my years of teaching new shooters, it’s not the gun, it’s you.” “It’s the Indian, not the arrow” I then defend myself that I can shoot using real life examples. GD OMG it is sad that you would write something like this about yourself. You need to get out of your own head once in awhile. You guys are insufferable. Lol, you defend yourself with a made up story No. True story. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_8888_jpeg-3162567.JPG I don’t see a group of generals standing and watching in awe of your shooting ability like the story. My only photo for the day. When I was shooting I was not using my flip phone. Maybe someone there took photos or video but it’s been 17 years. Ohwell, think I’m lying or telling the truth, I can’t prove it other than my word. Was the best shooter the officers have ever seen? No. Not even close. Were they surprised they a teacher could shoot? Probably. But I’ll take it. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:20:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperX925: @rabidus If you want a cheaper factory ammo with true 10mm Auto ballistics look for some Sig Sauer 10mm Auto Elite 180gr. FMJ. Academy around here carries it. It is advertised at 1250fps which is solid 10mm Auto ammo. Will do! Have found some sig10mm brass around here, thanks! |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:22:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Is the chamber the result of the poor groups? Never had this poor groupings before out of any pistol I shot. That’s why I’m on here. The loose chamber is the only thing I can think of. It could be me. Sure. I don’t think it is. I’m on here for any possible answers to the groupings other than me. This is a gun forum. You post something you think is not right and try to get more answers. Instead it turned into a pissing match that I can’t shoot. Dog pile even. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By SimonPhoto: I’m confused - is your concern that the chamber is loose, or that it’s out of round? I honestly don’t know if two thou is enough of a difference to be an issue, if the chamber is egged along the axis you measured, or if your caliper is accurate enough to be able to reliably measure a difference that small. Is the chamber the result of the poor groups? Never had this poor groupings before out of any pistol I shot. That’s why I’m on here. The loose chamber is the only thing I can think of. It could be me. Sure. I don’t think it is. I’m on here for any possible answers to the groupings other than me. This is a gun forum. You post something you think is not right and try to get more answers. Instead it turned into a pissing match that I can’t shoot. Dog pile even. I doubt it. I guess it's possible if it's causing a variable amount of gas to blow by the cartridge, which would result in varying velocity. You'd be able to see that on the breechface. Intuitively, I'd say it's either the barrel itself (i.e., the rifling) or perhaps a badly cut crown - but by far the first thing I would assume is that it's the ammo. you're using. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:27:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Not refusing but buying ammo here is not like walking into a Walmart and buying a box. I started this thread last night, work until 7pm tonight, won’t be able to buy a box and shoot it until next week. Sorry. Itd prolly shoot straighter in a free state. 
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:30:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: curiomatic]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: This sounds like the best answer. Do you know any true velocity 10mm ammo other than Buffalo bore? I know guns like different brands but any Glock 10mm owners chime in what ammo has worked well for them? 180gr like someone said as it has a large bearing surface. XTPs have shot well out of my Glocks, 1911, and CZ 75. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By curiomatic: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By curiomatic: If you want to know your Glock's chamber dimensions, you'll have to make a chamber casting with Cerrosafe or some similar product. Brownell's sells it. Glocks are built more for reliability than match accuracy. I'd be okay with a "loose" chamber if a bear was charging me. Maybe try a Gen5, G20 with the new and improved barrel? Was going to order cerrosafe but wanted to wait for the KKM barrel. Only Gen 3 Glocks are allowed in California unless I’m a LEO (which I’m not) I agree on loose chambers and reliability but after shooting great groups with pistols for years, I cannot accept 8” at 12 yards and no group whatso ever. Rounds land high, low, left, right and everything in between. You should establish your accuracy baseline with good factory ammo and work from there. When I shot matches with my 1911 where brass retrieval wasn't possible, I used Blazer aluminum case 45 ACP ammo, which worked well in my Colt Series 70. If your Glock doesn't shoot well with three or four brands of factory ammo, call Glock. This sounds like the best answer. Do you know any true velocity 10mm ammo other than Buffalo bore? I know guns like different brands but any Glock 10mm owners chime in what ammo has worked well for them? 180gr like someone said as it has a large bearing surface. XTPs have shot well out of my Glocks, 1911, and CZ 75. "True velocity" is whatever is available on the commercial ammo market. When you shop for ammo, go to the manufacturers' websites and make note of their published velocities. Although these aren't always accurate, they will give you an idea of who loads the hotter ammo. Some manufacturers keep their range ammo velocity low for punching paper, while other manufacturers make higher velocity Range ammo to duplicate the recoil of their Defensive loads. Good luck in your quest for accuracy. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:30:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Is this for real? Done if the shit you guys complain about is
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:35:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTallest: Is this for real? Done if the shit you guys complain about is .Like dupes? |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:44:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kiltakaze: I think the problem is probably the Indian and not the arrow dude. If you’re getting consistently crappy groups from a variety of pistols, you need to shoot more and measure less. Don't want to gang up on the OP, but this. Let a few people using factory ammo shoot it and see the results. Three different guns that need to go back because they're "inaccurate?" What are the odds. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:48:19 PM EDT
[#13]
You showed the drawing for the cartridge, not the chamber.
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:52:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: The gun doesn’t shoot that bad. The combo of the shooter, the reloads and the gun could possibly shoot that bad. However OP didn’t even post a pic of the target. This might be an epic troll. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By rb889: Gun prints 8” at 12 yards. GD: “Lol OP suxorz, git gud scrub!” Typical. The gun doesn’t shoot that bad. The combo of the shooter, the reloads and the gun could possibly shoot that bad. However OP didn’t even post a pic of the target. This might be an epic troll. They were so bad I didn’t even bother taking a pic. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:52:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: kc3]
[#15]
Chamber diameter for 10mm is .4281 +.004.
You posted the drawing for the cartridge, not the chamber. Also measuring holes with calipers is easy to be .002-.003 off. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 1:57:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Measured with a $19 chinesium caliper? Have someone else shoot with some factory stuff from a rest.
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:00:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crusaderf8u: And if you’re able, there’s nothing wrong with that. But drawing conclusions based on insufficient evidence (reloads only with Bo factory ammo if a round you are unfamiliar with) seems to be the issue. Even with CA prices a couple different boxes of factory 10mm is going to give you much more useful data than a KKM barrel will for less investment. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crusaderf8u: Originally Posted By rabidus: Only bought 1 box of 45-70, reloaded the rest. Haven’t bought a box of 45acp in 15 years. That’s how I roll. And if you’re able, there’s nothing wrong with that. But drawing conclusions based on insufficient evidence (reloads only with Bo factory ammo if a round you are unfamiliar with) seems to be the issue. Even with CA prices a couple different boxes of factory 10mm is going to give you much more useful data than a KKM barrel will for less investment. Sufficient evidence is why I created this post. I’m new to the cartridge, not to reloading. The fun/burden of a new cartridge is figuring out the right bullet, powder, COL, primer, casing and barrel. These are variables I can control. But in the 20 years of reloading, I’ve never had a pistol shoot this poorly. Usually at such a short distance, there will be a baseball sized group, I then work from there. Never had gun not like 2 different bullets. Granted they are at the extreme ends of a bell curve but still, no rhyme nor reason with the pattern. Hence the creation of this thread. The chamber was my suspicion as the loaded round wiggles in it worse than any other pistol chamber Ive owned. That became my focus. Did not have any feeding nor any failure to fire, all rounds went bang. So my measuring was bad, but so is the round in the chambering. My Glock 19s do not wiggle as much in their OEM barrel chambers. Interestingly, they shoot better or on par with my Wilson combat Glock 19 barrel. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:01:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ManiacRat:  You're delusional. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ManiacRat: Originally Posted By rabidus: Never got an award for pistol. I was at MCRD or Pendleton back in '08 for an educator workshop. Got to shoot the simulator. It was fun, for the pistol range, one of the Marines asked if I needed a tutorial, told him, "thanks but I got it.." Started shooting, all shots were hitting COM and head shots. Ran 2-3 mags through it and the room got quieter, heads started to turn over, granted, these are teachers so not much to talk about. Got done. Stopped for a second, looked around and the entire room was watching me. A major and a colonel were watching and smiled. 2 young Marines pushed some teachers aside and said, we got this they shot 1/2 a mag, shot like shit, and moved away from the line. A few people in the room said, "Damn" As I passed the officers, the Major gave me a nod. I don't shoot competition, I'm sure many can beat me but at the range, I only met 1 other person who could outshoot me with a pistol, he won awards in the Army pistol competition. So I'm no Jerry Miculek by any stretch but I'm also not a slack jawed basement dweller. You're delusional. It happened. Not much else I can say about it. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:05:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Did you get one? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By zpduff: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By GreatWaputi: Not everyone should own guns https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_0110_jpeg-3162257.JPG Lmao. Did you seriously post a picture of your Appleseed target? That stuff is for kids to learn how to shoot. Getting rifleman rank at Appleseed is extremely easy. Did you get one? Yes. My first attempt, and so did my friend that went with me. Then we both repeated it multiple times. I think Appleseed is a cool project but in my opinion it's for teaching children or brand new shooters basic rifle handling. I would never use it as an example of impressive marksmanship. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:11:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523: This, since first off wouldn't trust the cheap calipers as far as I could throw them, and even with starrett calipers, still not the way you measure ID surface, since different pressure on the wheel, is going to give different readings. Hence if you think that the chamber is over sized, then do a casting, and messure the casting. Next, Really giving no detail on the bullet, be it copper jacket, copper plated, poly coated, or just waxed (which you never run throught a tennifer barrel since it will lead the hell out of it quick), much less the OD size of the bullet. Hence if jacketed bullet, then od should be .401", while if the other than that, the bullet needs to be in the .402~.403" range before it going to hold onto the rifling down the bore. and with say a 10mm pistol that your pushing cast round, lead needs to be at a hell of lot harder than lyman #2 hardness. As for loads, once the above is correct, then need to work it up, since at some point will be just trying to push the bullet too fast, and its not going to group well from this alone. The last one, gives us no idea if you can shoot tight groups for an auto to begin with (and from a 10mm, than that FBI had to switch to 40cal (10mm lights before that) so most of the personal could qualify to begin with), or just your typical revolver shoot that is still fighting the slide recoil. Bottom line, go find a match shooter and let him run a few mags of decent factory jacket pointed rounds through the pistol, to see if it you/ the reloads the problem, or the pistol instead. Glocks are not known for their match type accuracy, but should be able to print better than a 3" group at piston range with stock trigger pull weights, right out of the box once cleaned correctly. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dano523: This, since first off wouldn't trust the cheap calipers as far as I could throw them, and even with starrett calipers, still not the way you measure ID surface, since different pressure on the wheel, is going to give different readings. Hence if you think that the chamber is over sized, then do a casting, and messure the casting. Next, Really giving no detail on the bullet, be it copper jacket, copper plated, poly coated, or just waxed (which you never run throught a tennifer barrel since it will lead the hell out of it quick), much less the OD size of the bullet. Hence if jacketed bullet, then od should be .401", while if the other than that, the bullet needs to be in the .402~.403" range before it going to hold onto the rifling down the bore. and with say a 10mm pistol that your pushing cast round, lead needs to be at a hell of lot harder than lyman #2 hardness. As for loads, once the above is correct, then need to work it up, since at some point will be just trying to push the bullet too fast, and its not going to group well from this alone. The last one, gives us no idea if you can shoot tight groups for an auto to begin with (and from a 10mm, than that FBI had to switch to 40cal (10mm lights before that) so most of the personal could qualify to begin with), or just your typical revolver shoot that is still fighting the slide recoil. Bottom line, go find a match shooter and let him run a few mags of decent factory jacket pointed rounds through the pistol, to see if it you/ the reloads the problem, or the pistol instead. Glocks are not known for their match type accuracy, but should be able to print better than a 3" group at piston range with stock trigger pull weights, right out of the box once cleaned correctly. The 200gr bullets are 22 BHN hi-ten coated sized to .401” The 135gr were Noslers, jacketed hollow points. Bullets were sorted by weight. Powder was individually scaled. Brass was brand new Starline. COL was moved from 1.26”, 1.255”, and 1.25” all with a string of powder charges per COL. Normally, with every pistol I’ve shot, I found promise. With 2 or more COLs, powder charges, bullets etc. This was the first time there was no recognizable pattern. The impacts were all varied and random. I’ve loaded perhaps, 15,000-20,000 rounds over the years from 12ga, 338LM, 45-70, 308, 30-06, 6.5 CM, 7.7 Japanese, 300 BO, 5.56, 9mm, 45acp, 45 Colt, anneal, cast my own bullets, slugs etc, powdercoat, resize to .001” over bore etc. And in all of that, I’m perplexed about this pistol, any groups are worse than my some of my worst rifle grouping at 100 yards. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:21:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: Gun prints 8” at 12 yards. GD: “Lol OP suxorz, git gud scrub!” Typical. If it were 8" at 12 yards it would keyhole. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:24:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Check for broken locking block
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:24:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Sufficient evidence is why I created this post. I’m new to the cartridge, not to reloading. The fun/burden of a new cartridge is figuring out the right bullet, powder, COL, primer, casing and barrel. These are variables I can control. But in the 20 years of reloading, I’ve never had a pistol shoot this poorly. Usually at such a short distance, there will be a baseball sized group, I then work from there. Never had gun not like 2 different bullets. Granted they are at the extreme ends of a bell curve but still, no rhyme nor reason with the pattern. Hence the creation of this thread. The chamber was my suspicion as the loaded round wiggles in it worse than any other pistol chamber Ive owned. That became my focus. Did not have any feeding nor any failure to fire, all rounds went bang. So my measuring was bad, but so is the round in the chambering. My Glock 19s do not wiggle as much in their OEM barrel chambers. Interestingly, they shoot better or on par with my Wilson combat Glock 19 barrel. I would not get hung up on the velocity of the rounds to establish a baseline; just get some 180gr FMJ to at least have a known starting point. If it is still inaccurate with factory ammo then there is your answer. Whether the FMJs go 980fps or 1300fps is secondary to establishing if the barrel is needing replacement. Once you’ve run a couple boxes thru then start spicing up your hand loads accordingly. Also, maybe see if anyone you know also has a 10mm to try the rounds you loaded thru? Tho you may be in the same boat I’m in, that no one I shoot with owns a 10mm but me lol. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:26:45 PM EDT
[#24]
I too do appleseeds. This was shot with a California neutered (bullet button) SCAR-17. Rifleman is easy with a reliable .22.
 Not disparaging you. Pistols are much more difficult to shoot accurately than a .22 rifle |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:35:36 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Everybody must be drunk tonight. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By NachoDip: Glocks are known for increased reliability. Part of that is having a slightly oversized chamber and some loose tolerances. If you want a match fit. Get a match barrel. Your gun is fine. You’re wasting everyone’s time and should feel bad. If you want a match we can laugh at you because of feeding and reliability issues after we go down that route. You’re also not being consistent with your calipers in how you’re measuring the chamber. I know you’re thinking you’re the genius behind all of the reasons and excuses you have. Reality is you can’t hit shit with it and you’re blaming the tool not the man holding it. Everybody must be drunk tonight. Please stay off the tech forums and stay in GD. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:38:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By boomeruni: You can’t believe that post would do anything to help your case. When you started getting into everyone nodding and handing out free handjobs that ship had sailed. 
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:40:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: If it were 8" at 12 yards it would keyhole. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: Originally Posted By rb889: Gun prints 8” at 12 yards. GD: “Lol OP suxorz, git gud scrub!” Typical. If it were 8" at 12 yards it would keyhole. Not necessarily. I had a .44 mag Marlin that wouldn't keep any cast bullet, no matter the weight or velocity, on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 15 yards. None tumbled. It shot jacketed bullets just fine. Never found out why. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:42:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Surprised this thread has made it this long.
Wth I'm in |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:42:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Itd prolly shoot straighter in a free state. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Originally Posted By rabidus: Not refusing but buying ammo here is not like walking into a Walmart and buying a box. I started this thread last night, work until 7pm tonight, won’t be able to buy a box and shoot it until next week. Sorry. Itd prolly shoot straighter in a free state. Being free causes less cognitive distractions, so, yes! |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:43:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Check for broken locking block Yeah, assuming OP is right about the accuracy, I really doubt the loose chamber is the problem. I'd look elsewhere. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:47:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curiomatic: "True velocity" is whatever is available on the commercial ammo market. When you shop for ammo, go to the manufacturers' websites and make note of their published velocities. Although these aren't always accurate, they will give you an idea of who loads the hotter ammo. Some manufacturers keep their range ammo velocity low for punching paper, while other manufacturers make higher velocity Range ammo to duplicate the recoil of their Defensive loads. Good luck in your quest for accuracy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By curiomatic: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By curiomatic: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By curiomatic: If you want to know your Glock's chamber dimensions, you'll have to make a chamber casting with Cerrosafe or some similar product. Brownell's sells it. Glocks are built more for reliability than match accuracy. I'd be okay with a "loose" chamber if a bear was charging me. Maybe try a Gen5, G20 with the new and improved barrel? Was going to order cerrosafe but wanted to wait for the KKM barrel. Only Gen 3 Glocks are allowed in California unless I’m a LEO (which I’m not) I agree on loose chambers and reliability but after shooting great groups with pistols for years, I cannot accept 8” at 12 yards and no group whatso ever. Rounds land high, low, left, right and everything in between. You should establish your accuracy baseline with good factory ammo and work from there. When I shot matches with my 1911 where brass retrieval wasn't possible, I used Blazer aluminum case 45 ACP ammo, which worked well in my Colt Series 70. If your Glock doesn't shoot well with three or four brands of factory ammo, call Glock. This sounds like the best answer. Do you know any true velocity 10mm ammo other than Buffalo bore? I know guns like different brands but any Glock 10mm owners chime in what ammo has worked well for them? 180gr like someone said as it has a large bearing surface. XTPs have shot well out of my Glocks, 1911, and CZ 75. "True velocity" is whatever is available on the commercial ammo market. When you shop for ammo, go to the manufacturers' websites and make note of their published velocities. Although these aren't always accurate, they will give you an idea of who loads the hotter ammo. Some manufacturers keep their range ammo velocity low for punching paper, while other manufacturers make higher velocity Range ammo to duplicate the recoil of their Defensive loads. Good luck in your quest for accuracy. I have watched many videos and many 10mm manufacture claims does not match the chronograph. Historically, Hornady has shot well for me, or federal match ammo. Honestly, I just don’t buy factory. Never bough factory 338LM, I can shoot sub MOA using 3 different bullet weights, just from reloading. Pistol ammo I’m willing to cut a lot of slack but a baseball group at 12yards supported is something I can work with, tweak to a nice match load. But 8”? No way. All rounds landed in a circle pattern. Completely random. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:49:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By diesel1: Accurate enough. And please explain how one would use a micrometer to measure an inside diameter. Lol, you use a split-ball hole gauge, which you then measure with a micrometer. Jeezus. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:49:57 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperX925: One would use an ID micrometer. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperX925: Originally Posted By diesel1: Originally Posted By Coffin-Nail: Calipers aren't really that precise, you need a mic for real accuracy. Accurate enough. And please explain how one would use a micrometer to measure an inside diameter. As others have said, as slight variation in chamber size should not affect accuracy. I'd be more concerned about bore dimensions. Good suggestions re factory ammo. One would use an ID micrometer. Or that. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:51:59 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Strela: Don't want to gang up on the OP, but this. Let a few people using factory ammo shoot it and see the results. Three different guns that need to go back because they're "inaccurate?" What are the odds. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Strela: Originally Posted By Kiltakaze: I think the problem is probably the Indian and not the arrow dude. If you’re getting consistently crappy groups from a variety of pistols, you need to shoot more and measure less. Don't want to gang up on the OP, but this. Let a few people using factory ammo shoot it and see the results. Three different guns that need to go back because they're "inaccurate?" What are the odds. People keep repeating this. The two colts were never fired. I saw the chatter and sent them back, by the 2nd python with the same issue, I got a refund. This pistol shoots like crap, so far, although more testing needs to be completed. Others were cheap $500 lever guns. I was not expecting match ammo but they did make 1 right and shoots lights out. What baffled me was the CZ 527. It had failures to fire, using factory and reloaded ammo. Through my research, I was not the only one. I’m picky. I work my ass off for the guns I buy, I want them to work and work well (reasonable accuracy). I saved for 6 months to buy this pistol. Researched the shit out of it. Which added to the shock of the poor groupings. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:52:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By diesel1: OK but very limited "reach" into a bore. He's not measuring the fucking bore. Jeezus. |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:53:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Damn that's ugly. Good you called them on their shit .
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:53:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JeepersCreepers]
[#37]
Originally Posted By StevenH: This might be an epic troll. Did you miss the post where he said he's such a good shot that when he shot on a virtual simulator, USMC majors and colonels stopped what they were doing to watch in amazement  |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:54:25 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kc3: You showed the drawing for the cartridge, not the chamber. Realized that after creating this thread. It still supports my limited anecdotal evidence of the loose chamber (rattling) and using deductive reasoning with other Glocks in different calibers and not getting that rattle. Another poster has confirmed a loose chamber in their G20. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 2:59:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rabidus: Realized that after creating this thread. It still supports my limited anecdotal evidence of the loose chamber (rattling) and using deductive reasoning with other Glocks in different calibers and not getting that rattle. Another poster has confirmed a loose chamber in their G20. Do you know what "tolerances" are? It says on the drawing that chamber body diameters are +.004. .4281 + .004 = .432, exactly what you measured, and given that most newbs measure holes oversized with calipers, either because they spring them, or they're not square to the hole, your chamber is almost surely within SAAMI specs. But for God's sake, don't listen to people who make barrels for a living. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:04:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zpduff: Yes. My first attempt, and so did my friend that went with me. Then we both repeated it multiple times. I think Appleseed is a cool project but in my opinion it's for teaching children or brand new shooters basic rifle handling. I would never use it as an example of impressive marksmanship. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zpduff: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By zpduff: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By GreatWaputi: Not everyone should own guns https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/IMG_0110_jpeg-3162257.JPG Lmao. Did you seriously post a picture of your Appleseed target? That stuff is for kids to learn how to shoot. Getting rifleman rank at Appleseed is extremely easy. Did you get one? Yes. My first attempt, and so did my friend that went with me. Then we both repeated it multiple times. I think Appleseed is a cool project but in my opinion it's for teaching children or brand new shooters basic rifle handling. I would never use it as an example of impressive marksmanship. I did as well my first attempt. How many shooters attend the event and how many walk away with a patch? |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:11:18 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: I too do appleseeds. This was shot with a California neutered (bullet button) SCAR-17. Rifleman is easy with a reliable .22. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20220811_210702-2485972.jpg Not disparaging you. Pistols are much more difficult to shoot accurately than a .22 rifle Agreed. But my post was in response to, “Some people should not own guns” How would you have responded if your skills were called into question? By 10 different people? All nitpicking your posts calling you a liar? Appleseed was a common metric of marksmanship. I don’t shoot competition. I run ‘n gun with my friend and drill for fun/passion. Not everybody can earn a rifleman patch. Do I post groups at 100 yards? GD response, “Herr durr, anybody can shoot that on a rest!” I don’t video myself shooting. That is full of one’s self. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:14:45 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kc3: You're the dumbass who doesn't know what he's measuring or how to measure it. Please stay off the tech forums and stay in GD. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kc3: Originally Posted By rabidus: Originally Posted By NachoDip: Glocks are known for increased reliability. Part of that is having a slightly oversized chamber and some loose tolerances. If you want a match fit. Get a match barrel. Your gun is fine. You’re wasting everyone’s time and should feel bad. If you want a match we can laugh at you because of feeding and reliability issues after we go down that route. You’re also not being consistent with your calipers in how you’re measuring the chamber. I know you’re thinking you’re the genius behind all of the reasons and excuses you have. Reality is you can’t hit shit with it and you’re blaming the tool not the man holding it. Everybody must be drunk tonight. Please stay off the tech forums and stay in GD. I have limited tools, I can post, “my chamber in my 10mm is rattling/loose. Why are my groups terrible?” Am I not allowed to learn? People want measurements/answers. I’m limited on what numbers I can give. All I got was you’re a terrible pistol shooter. Now you’re calling me a dumbass. Thanks. Wish I knew it all. My ivory tower would be taller than GDs imagination. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:15:56 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By David0858: Not necessarily. I had a .44 mag Marlin that wouldn't keep any cast bullet, no matter the weight or velocity, on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 15 yards. None tumbled. It shot jacketed bullets just fine. Never found out why. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By David0858: Originally Posted By carcrazysammy: Originally Posted By rb889: Gun prints 8” at 12 yards. GD: “Lol OP suxorz, git gud scrub!” Typical. If it were 8" at 12 yards it would keyhole. Not necessarily. I had a .44 mag Marlin that wouldn't keep any cast bullet, no matter the weight or velocity, on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 15 yards. None tumbled. It shot jacketed bullets just fine. Never found out why. Marlin “micro groove” barrels were poor shooters with unjacketed bullets |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:22:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Skydivesnake:  School of the American Rifle alt account ? 
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:23:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kc3: Do you know what "tolerances" are? It says on the drawing that chamber body diameters are +.004. .4281 + .004 = .432, exactly what you measured, and given that most newbs measure holes oversized with calipers, either because they spring them, or they're not square to the hole, your chamber is almost surely within SAAMI specs. But for God's sake, don't listen to people who make barrels for a living. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kc3: Originally Posted By rabidus: Realized that after creating this thread. It still supports my limited anecdotal evidence of the loose chamber (rattling) and using deductive reasoning with other Glocks in different calibers and not getting that rattle. Another poster has confirmed a loose chamber in their G20. Do you know what "tolerances" are? It says on the drawing that chamber body diameters are +.004. .4281 + .004 = .432, exactly what you measured, and given that most newbs measure holes oversized with calipers, either because they spring them, or they're not square to the hole, your chamber is almost surely within SAAMI specs. But for God's sake, don't listen to people who make barrels for a living. ? Never refuted barrel makers. I’ve been mainly responding to posts about my shooting skills being the factor. They very well maybe, but has t been an issue with any other gun I’ve fired. While not the best, it’s better than 8” at 12 yards, supported. How well do you respond to dog piled criticism? I’m not a machinist, not an engineer. I’m a casual shooter who loves shooting/reloading. I like my rounds landing where I aim them. When this doesn’t happen, I ask questions, is it me or the gun? |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:24:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Try again. The other guy got it. The man claiming .00045/ side was the clearance OP was measuring was incorrect. I said it was close to .004 depending on which measurements you wanted to use. You, somehow, dragged out of that , that I didnt know how to read decimals. OP cartridge diagram listed .425. ID readings of .434 and .432. That poster said .00045 /side clearance presumably using the .434 number with is .009 or .0045/side and misstating the difference. I used the mean of .433 and stated the clearance was close to .004/side, explaining he was a decimal point off. Where upon you jumped with both feet claiming that somehow I was confused. This reminds me of a Mr.Higgs thread. I've done this for a living since '86 and for myself since 92. Re reading your post, I can see how you got confused. I was not completely clear because I mixed simply correcting his .00045 to .0045, with correcting to the mean of .008 total clearance and listed "nearly .004". Yes, 45 tenths are almost fifty millionths and yet much smaller than almost half a hundredth, but nearly identical to a hundredth of a mm. Gotta love them decimal measurments Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Originally Posted By mudholestomper: Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Originally Posted By mudholestomper: Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Originally Posted By green_bullet: The 0.00045 variance on either end from the theoretical cartridge is to account for different manufactuers? Chamber has to physically be bigger than the cartridge if only by a hair, as it is not a close slip-fit That's almost four thousandths, not ten thousandths. About 3 hairs, total, actually. I'd say that is a loose chamber, if your calipers are correct. Inexpensive calipers are notorious for ID readings being off. Do you have any known ID to use as a master? 0.00045 is 45 ten thousandths. Almost four thousandths? If a positive number starts with a four followed by a 5, it’s more than four. LOL. I have a handle on measurement in thousandths of an inch. Go back and read the measurement OP posted and the nominal cartridge dimension. It is almost .008 different. The poster I quoted listed .00045 per side difference. It should have been .004 depending on which dimension set was used as the calipers were showing different ones. Weird how you’re so great with accuracy but want to LOL when you remove the context of what you’re quoting and say something that’s incorrect in response to what you didn’t include in your quote. I responded (correctly) to the information that you included in your post. You responded incorrectly to the information that you included in your post. Wait…the “I have a handle on measurements” guy isn’t expecting us to assume anything from the information he didn’t include, right? Try again. The other guy got it. The man claiming .00045/ side was the clearance OP was measuring was incorrect. I said it was close to .004 depending on which measurements you wanted to use. You, somehow, dragged out of that , that I didnt know how to read decimals. OP cartridge diagram listed .425. ID readings of .434 and .432. That poster said .00045 /side clearance presumably using the .434 number with is .009 or .0045/side and misstating the difference. I used the mean of .433 and stated the clearance was close to .004/side, explaining he was a decimal point off. Where upon you jumped with both feet claiming that somehow I was confused. This reminds me of a Mr.Higgs thread. I've done this for a living since '86 and for myself since 92. Re reading your post, I can see how you got confused. I was not completely clear because I mixed simply correcting his .00045 to .0045, with correcting to the mean of .008 total clearance and listed "nearly .004". Yes, 45 tenths are almost fifty millionths and yet much smaller than almost half a hundredth, but nearly identical to a hundredth of a mm. Gotta love them decimal measurments 
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:32:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: kc3]
[#47]
Stop whining.
For one, I'd stop using bullets the gun maker advises against. That said, have you looked at the crown? Any defects there would affect accuracy a thousand times more than the chamber, or even the bore. Have you had any case-head separations, or even any Glock "smileys" on your fired cases? If not, your chamber is fine. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:46:44 PM EDT
[#48]
In summary:
1. Use factory 180Gn ammo 2. Have another shooter try it If it still doesn’t group: 1. Inspect for broken locking block 2. Return to Glock Skipping all that and going straight to buying an expensive aftermarket barrel is a waste of time on a new gun still under warranty. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:49:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kc3: Stop whining. For one, I'd stop using bullets the gun maker advises against. That said, have you looked at the crown? Any defects there would affect accuracy a thousand times more than the chamber, or even the bore. Have you had any case-head separations, or even any Glock "smileys" on your fired cases? If not, your chamber is fine. I’ve mentioned the locking block, a few times, because OPs obsession with “real” 10mm and hand loading may have cracked it |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:58:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: I’ve mentioned the locking block, a few times, because OPs obsession with “real” 10mm and hand loading may have cracked it Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By kc3: Stop whining. For one, I'd stop using bullets the gun maker advises against. That said, have you looked at the crown? Any defects there would affect accuracy a thousand times more than the chamber, or even the bore. Have you had any case-head separations, or even any Glock "smileys" on your fired cases? If not, your chamber is fine. I’ve mentioned the locking block, a few times, because OPs obsession with “real” 10mm and hand loading may have cracked it That’s a good call. If OP is as sloppy about his reloading practices as he is about taking measurements he may have damaged the gun. |
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