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2/23/2017 5:55:53 PM
Posted: 5/8/2001 1:52:16 PM EST
Just saw a news clip on Isreal and Palastine. The Palastinians are teaching their young children to hate the Isreales and are actively training them how to fight! I don't care what your beliefs are, teaching children to hate an entire people, and the best thing you can do is become a martyr for the cause, is perverted. They are even running a commercial portraying the child that died in his fathers arms in Paradise, telling all of his peers to pick up rocks and attack Isrealies. To anyone that thinks China and the US might be the next major war, I say look out for the Middle East. It hasn't even gotten started.
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 2:23:58 PM EST
I have been watching the Israel/Palestine thing for a while, and it seems to be getting worse. There is now ONE right way to handle it... The Palestinians are essentially an upstart people with a country, and want Israel for themselves. The core of the matter is religious, and each side is convinced they are right. In the Israelis, we have an increasingly dovish leadership who are under the misconception that "appeasement" is a relistic stratagem in weltpolitik. The Palestinians will settle for nothing less than the complete eradication of the Hebrew Nation, not limited to the Israelis - but worldwide. Allow the Israelis 48 hours to begin solving the problem, and then paste the Palestinians with the MEF. Since detente, appeasement, and rapproachment are not working, and they consider all-out genocide a reasonable goal - reverse the situation. Oh, and make sure we get them all. The worst thing you can do to a deadly enemy is ALMOST kill him... FFZ
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 6:33:37 PM EST
Like Saddam?
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 10:40:48 PM EST
The fault for the present situation is almost entirely to the British protectorate in Palestine. They scattered so much jews communities and arabic ones before 1948 (the principle was: "divide et impera" that is "divide and rule") that there is not an organic tissue of jews and arabs, so they have to confrontate and retaliate each other for a long time, even before the birth of Israel. The rest of the guilt can be divided by Israelis and Arabs almost equally: -there is an astonishing attitude by the Israel govt. in being deaf about israeli arabs communities. Since 1948, there was no "heart and mind" politic toward arabs. Integration was not the issue, and Sharon is really one of no help in this sense. If you think that Bedouins are used in Tsah'al as trackers, but the govt. is not willing to spend the same money for education as it is doing for the jewish counterpart. -arab aggressive behaviour against Israel. In 1948 most of the land foreseen in the UN deliberation were previously sold by jews from palestinians, and Jerusalem (and most of the actual territories of Israel) were not included. After FEW HOURS the Declaration of Indipendence of Israel five arab nations attacked Israel, were rejected and Israel conquered almost 77% (according to some sources) of the territories of the Palestinese future nation. This pattern was respected in 1956 and 1973, since 1967 War was a preventive war. I think that If the Arab were not so anxious to show their aggressivity, today Israel would be no bigger than the actual Tel Aviv...
Link Posted: 5/8/2001 11:02:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/8/2001 11:01:46 PM EST by Bigshooter]
I have no love for either side. However, I am outraged that my tax dollars continually go to support Isreal. It is my contention that Zionism is the mirror image of Nazi Germany. The only reason why Isreal hasn't liquidated the Palistinians is because they would lose all moral justification for their precious little homeland. So they did the next best thing, they set up an aparthied-style state and are gradually expelling the Arabs through expanded settlements, economic oppression, and military agression while at the same time wailing about anti-semitism and terrorism. The Jews have no desire to live in peace with the Arabs. They want an ethnically pure homeland where citizenship and all its benefits are determined by race. Sound familair to anything you learned about Europe, say, 60 or so years ago? I don't care who you are, if your ancestors have inhabited the same piece of land for 2000 years and then a group of people settle amoungst you and religate you to the status of peasants, you would fight back too. The Arabs have practically no rights, no weapons, and no hope. What do you expect them to do?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:35:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bigshooter: I have no love for either side. However, I am outraged that my tax dollars continually go to support Isreal. It is my contention that Zionism is the mirror image of Nazi Germany. The only reason why Isreal hasn't liquidated the Palistinians is because they would lose all moral justification for their precious little homeland. So they did the next best thing, they set up an aparthied-style state and are gradually expelling the Arabs through expanded settlements, economic oppression, and military agression while at the same time wailing about anti-semitism and terrorism. The Jews have no desire to live in peace with the Arabs. They want an ethnically pure homeland where citizenship and all its benefits are determined by race. Sound familair to anything you learned about Europe, say, 60 or so years ago? I don't care who you are, if your ancestors have inhabited the same piece of land for 2000 years and then a group of people settle amoungst you and religate you to the status of peasants, you would fight back too. The Arabs have practically no rights, no weapons, and no hope. What do you expect them to do?
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I am curious to see what are your information sources...
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:14:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 11:14:47 AM EST by Bigshooter]
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: I am curious to see what are your information sources...
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My opinions are based on numerous sources; textbooks, news, popular media, personal contacts, etc, just like anyone else. However, if you want to read up on the history of the region there are numerous books available. Two in particular that I remember from my undergraduate days are "A hitory of the holocaust" by Yehuda Bauer and "A history of the modern middle east" by William L. Cleveland. Both are somewhat long but worth the read. Each also received very good ratings on amazon.com if that means anything. I have many others packed away in boxes (I'm in the middle of a move at the moment). There are numerous others sources of course, but these will provide you with a reasonably thorough introduction to the topic as well as other historical information you might find interesting. Post your email and I will contact you if these are not satisfactory. If you have not already done so I suggest you also look into the attack of the USS Liberty. The exact date escapes me at the moment. I can find a good source of information on this event for you once I unpack my things. Bigshooter
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:22:28 AM EST
In a nutshell - Both sides are extremely crazy and we should have nothing to do with either of them. Both are butchers of children who kill in the name of GOD. We need new allies in the middle east, like Jordan. If we didn't actively support Israel(who gets 25% OF ALL OUR FOREIGN AID), gas would be about .75 cents a gallon.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:37:28 AM EST
Right about now I'd sit on Saddams lap and stroke his mustache for .75 cents a gallon.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:49:54 AM EST
Bigshooter: I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad you said it first, because I don't think I caould have said it as well. The US treats Israel as if they are the innocent victims in almost every circumstance. Israel is probably the only country in the world that regularly violates U.N. resolutions with total impunity. For example, we gave them a big pat on the back for pulling out of South Lebanon. This was a 1978 UN resolution!!! There is a very anti-arab sentiment in the US...especially in the media. I bet PaoloAR15 gets a much more objective view on his evening news than we do.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:06:18 PM EST
Try to imagine how YOU would feel, if in the late 40's, the rest of the world decided that YOUR country will now become SOMEONE ELSES country. Nobody gave Palastine, or the Palastinians ANY voice in the decision to annex their entire nation to make room for the abused European Jews. How do you think YOU would feel about that if you were a Palastinian? I'm not suggesting that at this point all the Isrealis should just pack up and wander the globe for eternity. What I am suggesting is this. For a group of people who NEVER let ANYONE forget how terribly they have been treated(the Jews), they sure as hell have a double standard for the entire population that they displaced by force. Either walk your walk, or put that out-stretched hand back in your pocket where it belongs. However, given the tenacity of the feelings of Isreals neighbors, I can easily see that middle ground is an impossibility. I can't say that I blame the Palastinians for not being "content" with middle ground either. It's like a group of people deciding that YOUR car should and will go to a more "deserving" person, who doesn't currently have a car. After years of back and fourth regarding this "take over", the group comes back with one bumper and a hub cap, and says "Here you go, now it's all fair and square."
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:40:04 PM EST
B.S. Isreal is only trying to exist!!!!!! they are surrounded by animals!!!!!! Isreal is only reacting to what those savages are doing. What if Mexico pulled that kind of crap?(would we tolorate what Isreal has been puting up with?)[uzi]
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:51:38 PM EST
The West Bank is far from a bumper and a hubcap. M4 you might want to brush up on your Israeli history bro. Both sides have [u]very[/u] valid issues, but when the Palestinians spit on the hand that is trying to outreach to them, frankly, it's really bad form and antagonistic. Israel will continue to be a shithole until the diffrent peoples are physically separated and allowed to cool down. Time to shove [b]all[/b] of the Palestinians into the West Bank, slam the gates and walk away. Let them sink or swim. Consider the West Bank a soverign country and if it continues to be antagonistic toward Israel, conduct retaliatory missle launches into Palestine everytime an attack against Israel happens. That should provide deterrant for any rogue bomblings.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 3:26:45 PM EST
Brush up on my Isreal history? What part of my post didn't you understand? Palastine was taken over by European Jews. Fact, not fiction. The question remains....if YOUR country was occupied by foreigners who forcably removed you from your OWN nation, how would YOU feel towards those who did it? I'm not saying that the Palastinians are warm fuzzy fun loving people. I'm simply saying that being forcably removed from your OWN country to make room for another group sure as hell wouldn't sit well with me. Maybe you would peacefully roll over on your back? Not me, and I understand why others wouldn't either.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 6:16:41 PM EST
Well sir, I completely understand your entire post. But there are 2 ways of looking at the situation. Your way: Jews kicked Arabs off their land without the right to do so, or... The other way: The Jews had occupied that land way before Allah was even a word, and got kicked out because of the Romans. They just reclaimed what they thought was rightfully theirs. Personally, I think that the truth falls somewhere in between. Having visited Israel last year just before the shit hit the fan, I can say positively that Israel was a freaking dump without any infrastructure before the Jews came back and only after they (Jews) turned that land into something that really resembles the U.S. (Gee, I wonder why) do the Palestinians want a piece of the pie. The Muslims already have Mecca, Christians have Rome, why can't the Jews legitimately have Jerusalem?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 7:20:40 PM EST
What a crazy situation, can you imagine a situation where your homeland is attacked and overrun by foreigners while being financed and supported by the major world powers? And then afterwards you were subjecated to second class status and your people where forced off there lands. But wait, it gets worse, then they murder, maim, and torture your people, all the while the world community STILL sits by and does nothing. Fuck that, I can't say that I support EVERYTHING they do but at the same time I'm lucky enough not to be in their shoes. Desperate times call for desperate men. What I think is really fucked up is that our tax dollars go to fund these genocidal Israelis. Those fuckers would have been done with along time ago without all our military assistance. Who the hell else would have supported them?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 7:29:09 PM EST
I think we'd be nuts to turn our back on the only democracy in the Middle East. Yes, European Jews make up a large part of Israel, but so what? Europeans make up an even greater part of the United States. Should they all be sent home, too? Jews have been living in this area for at least as long as any of the other peoples in the area. The Palestinians already have a 'homeland' - it's called Jordan! 80% of the population there is Palestinian. Yes, Israel has been 'guilty' of ignoring certain UN resolutions, and the problem with that is....? I think the US should be ignoring more UN resolutions, if you ask me. C'mon Israel, beat the crap outta whoever comes up against your country! You've done it many times before, and it looks like it's necessary for you to do it yet again. And the LORD said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: 'And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: [b]'And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee[/b]: and in thee shall all families of the earth shall be blessed.' [u]Genesis[/u], Chapter 12, vv.1-3. There seems to be the Hand of God at work in the regathering of the dispersed from all parts of the earth. Who would have thought that the dispossessed Jews, after 2000 years, would be permitted to have Jerusalem as their capital city again? What's the likelihood of that happening anytime else in all History? All I'm waiting for now is the rebuilding of the Temple. Then all things will be fulfilled. [size=3][i]Shaalu Shalom Yerushlaliim[/i][/size=3] (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem) Eric The(Believing)Hun
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 7:41:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:35:16 PM EST
Gee DK-Prof... Why don't we do that to solve all of our racial problems here?[;)] I will tell you this, when I was there last summer, I was very surprised at how many signs, t-shirts, towels, etc. that said things like: "America, we have your back!---" with some fascist-looking F-16s flying in formation in the background.----interesting. I also had to laugh while waiting at the border between Egypt and Israel when an American peace-keeping group came through, one Marine had a shirt on that said: "It's a Superpower thing, you wouldn't understand..." with the US flag in the background.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:45:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By M4: Brush up on my Isreal history? What part of my post didn't you understand? Palastine was taken over by European Jews. Fact, not fiction. The question remains....if YOUR country was occupied by foreigners who forcably removed you from your OWN nation, how would YOU feel towards those who did it? I'm not saying that the Palastinians are warm fuzzy fun loving people. I'm simply saying that being forcably removed from your OWN country to make room for another group sure as hell wouldn't sit well with me. Maybe you would peacefully roll over on your back? Not me, and I understand why others wouldn't either.
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Your facts can be easily confuted if you only care to know better Israel history. 1)The curious idea that jews where teletrasported in "Palestine" is false. Since the diaspora, even a small number of Jews ALWAYS remained in Palestine, even during the Ottoman Empire. Jews were living in East Jerusalem even before 1948, and 1967. Treated (of course) like the bottom of the society. 2)The first Alyah is dated 1882, if I remeber correctly. 3)The UN GAVE to the so called Palestinians the opportunity to have a Arab state in Palestine. It is in the UN resolution (don't ask me now the number issued)of the 1947. Due to the violent self-destructing attitude of the arabs, 6 countries attacked the newborn Israel a few hours after the constitution of Eretz Israel. If the arab countries (Iraq included) would remain quiet there would be 2 consequences: a)Israel would be half of his actual size, because, as a consequence of the 1948 arabic aggressive war, he annexed the 77% of the land given to Arafat and Co. b)there would alread be a Palestinese Nation. Aggression never paid to arab, but they never learned from experience. 4)About not complying UN resolution, USA are THE LAST that deserve to talk. The do whatever is in USA interest. So, if this is right for US Govt. why shouldn't like that for any other? Or there is a double standard for US. and the rest of the world? Israel is not exempt from critics. As a country founded by victims, they have the moral obligation not to make to others to suffer injustice. Unfortunately (and this is far from justifying some issues that I know very well and personally...) when there is a war the first victim is the innocence. Shalom
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:55:58 PM EST
I Apologize again for posting. This article can give an idea of how much the Israeli society is dynamical. from Ha'aretz Israeli newspaper: [url]http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/kat3_4.htm [/url] Try to find something similar in the arabic sites...
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:56:22 PM EST
My .02... You leave...FOAD..... You come back , shooting state of the art vs. rocks, and I should feel sorry for you? Tell you what...Come in MY front room, and try to squat at gunpoint....one entire side dies....NO TIES...NO BS.... I know there are opposing points, but I do think we ALL agree, US should stay out, BUT might I add..stay out should be equal...sell arms to all or none....(SUIT ON) DO NOT just sell to those who have the SAME pigments as the US...(Why do we protect the Kurds? Cause they are EUROPEANS!!!!)
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