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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:01:33 PM EDT
[#1]
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IDK, its kinda hard to argue with a real life been there, done that guy Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This thread won't take a turn for the autistic at all. Guaranteed. The premise is that because he was from that community, that he's competent about firearms selection and application for HD. He's still clearly in the "heard from cleatus behind the gun counter, so shotgun for HD it is" category. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:02:09 PM EDT
[#2]
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Last few months he has been talking guns a few times, he said he has been hanging with some seals and FBI guys but hasn't gone into detail Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Stern as in... ...Howard? 
I had no idea he talked about stuff like that on his show. Stern's show can be entertaining at times, and he's in favor of people having the right to own guns for self defense... as long as they're subject to "reasonable regulation." He's no friend to the gun owner. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:02:34 PM EDT
[#3]
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And I'll point out that the U.S. investigated the high incidence of head shots in Iraq, discovering, again, that the 5.56 is not a reliable stopper in CQB and that soldiers and marines were using an extra round to ensure their targets were stopped... "In Fallujah, Marines with ACOG-equipped M16A4s created a stir by taking so many head shots that until the wounds were closely examined, some observers thought the insurgents had been executed." Oh. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:02:51 PM EDT
[#4]
i have three shotguns set out
One on top of the tv cabinet One in my closet One in a hall closet I am not going to kill my neighbors saving my ass with an ar-15 I would feel underguned with an ar-15 A shotgun is the first choice for home defense. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:06:12 PM EDT
[#5]
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A.22caliber carbine is the only weapon you can trust your life to. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:12:01 PM EDT
[#6]
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Is that what they discovered? "In Fallujah, Marines with ACOG-equipped M16A4s created a stir by taking so many head shots that until the wounds were closely examined, some observers thought the insurgents had been executed." Oh. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And I'll point out that the U.S. investigated the high incidence of head shots in Iraq, discovering, again, that the 5.56 is not a reliable stopper in CQB and that soldiers and marines were using an extra round to ensure their targets were stopped... "In Fallujah, Marines with ACOG-equipped M16A4s created a stir by taking so many head shots that until the wounds were closely examined, some observers thought the insurgents had been executed." Oh. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:15:43 PM EDT
[#7]
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This thread won't take a turn for the autistic at all. Guaranteed. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:15:43 PM EDT
[#8]
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There's a difference between a former Navy Seal with a shotgun and an average Joe with no training with a shotgun for home defense, just saying. There's a huge difference between a SEAL with years of training and some malnourished mountain ape with an RPG or PKM. There's a huge difference between a SEAL sitting on a MH-47 ramp with no retention lanyard and an 11B with one. Joe Blow with a few days of training on his AR15 and in goood physical shape will win the fight almost every time against a SEAL with a shotgun, if not every time. A shotgun is a handicap in an HD scenario if you're facing someone with an AR. Facing someone with a knife, crowbar, or pistol, it's ok, but not something an experienced person would choose. Suppressed SBR AR with light and laser is such a huge advantage over a shotgun, it shouldn't even be an argument, other than decades of gun counter BS fighting logic and experience. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:16:22 PM EDT
[#9]
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My post could have been clearer, but that's my point. The shot in the head was relied on to stop the turds because the body shots weren't doing the job. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:19:12 PM EDT
[#10]
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Bullshit. Even just limited to the AR platform there are a number of better options. 6.8 SPC being just one.  
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:21:56 PM EDT
[#11]
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It's actually very easy. The premise is that because he was from that community, that he's competent about firearms selection and application for HD. He's still clearly in the "heard from cleatus behind the gun counter, so shotgun for HD it is" category. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:25:51 PM EDT
[#12]
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I like my ARs, and my shotguns. An experienced duck or goose hunter can, using a 12ga 3", 3 1/2" or 3 1/2" 10ga drop two or even thee ducks or geese at a time, with capacity limited to three rounds by federal law for migratory birds... International trap and skeet are doubles games... But somehow the recoil of a shotgun becomes prohibitive when some ahole is in your house? Really, sissies? And somehow that pump shotgun the duck and goose or dove hunter or deer hunter has shot thousands of times at clays and birds, deer, maybe rabbits, squirrels, quail, crows and other stuff suddenly becomes too complex to shuck? Please... And btw, the greater the recoil the easier and quicker to cycle. Thousands of deer are killed with shotguns every year, many in states where 223/5.56 is illegal because it is believed insufficiently lethal for quick, humane kills... And I'll point out that the U.S. investigated the high incidence of head shots in Iraq, discovering, again, that the 5.56 is not a reliable stopper in CQB and that soldiers and marines were using an extra round to ensure their targets were stopped... |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:26:56 PM EDT
[#13]
you are a fool if you think 12ga 3" 00 buck is an ineffective man stopper
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:27:35 PM EDT
[#14]
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I don't agree, SG are not so terribly hard to manipulate and people kill each other every damn day, why do some feel it is this monumental task. Have you ever looked at the mug shots of all these people killing other people or even the people that successfully defended themselves with lethal force they aren't exactly tier 1 operators yet they get the job done. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sure he's BTDT. So it stands to reason he's well trained and tempered under fire and will never short-stroke or fumble a reload, anticipate recoil, etc while under duress. Joe-blow America who has not been tested under fire would be better off with a magazine-fed rifle. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:27:40 PM EDT
[#15]
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i have three shotguns set out One on top of the tv cabinet One in my closet One in a hall closet I am not going to kill my neighbors saving my ass with an ar-15 I would feel underguned with an ar-15 A shotgun is the first choice for home defense. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:28:00 PM EDT
[#16]
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He killed Osama, he can say anything he wants and I'll agree. The actual shooter prefers to remain a silent professional. The guys who captured Saddam have a totally different view on HD weapons selection, and they shoot a lot more shotgun than Dev. They don't recommend shotguns. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:28:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Seems to me like if you factor in possible body armor issues, you may want to choose the rifle.
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:31:10 PM EDT
[#18]
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Bolt action rifles aren't terribly hard to manipulate either. That doesn't make them a smart choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sure he's BTDT. So it stands to reason he's well trained and tempered under fire and will never short-stroke or fumble a reload, anticipate recoil, etc while under duress. Joe-blow America who has not been tested under fire would be better off with a magazine-fed rifle. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:31:11 PM EDT
[#19]
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My post could have been clearer, but that's my point. The shot in the head was relied on to stop the turds because the body shots weren't doing the job. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:32:15 PM EDT
[#20]
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He (Stern) has also said that Hillary was a better choice than Trump, that his FBI buddies all hate Trump, that they all had Comey's back, that they're just about ready to lead the FBI in a coup against Trump..... Stern's show can be entertaining at times, and he's in favor of people having the right to own guns for self defense... as long as they're subject to "reasonable regulation." He's no friend to the gun owner. I know he is for the cunt and some gun regs but I wasn't commenting about that because I wasn't asked about any of the points you brought up just that stern has been talking guns and fbi and seals friends at the same time. Hard to believe those aren't the guys he is getting gun info from. I agree being for background checks is darn near being an anti but if the .gov was for confiscation or something like that he would go on air and be against it. Thats something 
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:33:31 PM EDT
[#21]
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Bolt action rifles are not a smart choice. Pump shotguns are a very smart choice. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:36:37 PM EDT
[#22]
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Anybody saying that a shotgun is inadequate for HD is a fool. I have a nasty SOB of a shotgun too. It holds 7 rounds of "ack right." HAHA!! |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:40:23 PM EDT
[#23]
OP: You realize O'Neill didn't kill Bin Laden, right?
He is also described by guys from that Unit as a seeker of the spotlight, deviated from his assigned clearance route in the objective so he could try to get a shot at Bin Laden. A show-boater. People in units like that don't like it when one of their own violates their trust and writes a book about what they do, goes on TV to talk about it, or any other schemes to shine attention on themselves. Especially when they make claims about where they were, what they did, that falsely describe the event, which shouldn't be discussed in the first place, it's not exactly the reputation you build off of to "settle" arguments on weapons selection. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:43:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Every pilot who ever crashed was an expert right up to the last half second of his life.
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:44:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Asking people who use firearms in life or death situations for opinions is like asking attorneys who practiced before the Supreme Court for opinions. You are likely to get as many differing opinions as people you ask for their opinions.
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:47:29 PM EDT
[#26]
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OP: You realize O'Neill didn't kill Bin Laden, right? He is also described by guys from that Unit as a seeker of the spotlight, deviated from his assigned clearance route in the objective so he could try to get a shot at Bin Laden. A show-boater. People in units like that don't like it when one of their own violates their trust and writes a book about what they do, goes on TV to talk about it, or any other schemes to shine attention on themselves. Especially when they make claims about where they were, what they did, that falsely describe the event, which shouldn't be discussed in the first place, it's not exactly the reputation you build off of to "settle" arguments on weapons selection. I know they don't want to talk about it but someone somewhere besides arfcom would be saying this. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:47:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Double tap
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:49:42 PM EDT
[#28]
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GD has Nutnfancy and YouTube videos and their emotional Investment in muh tactical training and muh tactical gear I'm sure Rob's Mossy isn't your run of the mill Wal-Mary special. Not to mention, I'm sure he has other stuff at his disposal he won't talk about. I sure as shit wouldn't. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:50:15 PM EDT
[#29]
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You must listen to the show more because I heard him say his FBI buddies liked Comey and they said he was a good guy. Never heard Sten say those FBI guys hated Trump or are about ready for a coup. I'd like to hear that interview. I know he is for the cunt and some gun regs but I wasn't commenting about that because I wasn't asked about any of the points you brought up just that stern has been talking guns and fbi and seals friends at the same time. Hard to believe those aren't the guys he is getting gun info from. I agree being for background checks is darn near being an anti but if the .gov was for confiscation or something like that he would go on air and be against it. Thats something |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:50:17 PM EDT
[#30]
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This thread won't take a turn for the autistic at all. Guaranteed. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:52:25 PM EDT
[#31]
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why do you hate your ears so much? Those things suck. 
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:55:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IDK, its kinda hard to argue with a real life been there, done that guy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This thread won't take a turn for the autistic at all. Guaranteed. 
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:55:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP: You realize O'Neill didn't kill Bin Laden, right? He is also described by guys from that Unit as a seeker of the spotlight, deviated from his assigned clearance route in the objective so he could try to get a shot at Bin Laden. A show-boater. People in units like that don't like it when one of their own violates their trust and writes a book about what they do, goes on TV to talk about it, or any other schemes to shine attention on themselves. Especially when they make claims about where they were, what they did, that falsely describe the event, which shouldn't be discussed in the first place, it's not exactly the reputation you build off of to "settle" arguments on weapons selection. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:56:31 PM EDT
[#34]
These threads remind me of the Guns and Ammo article written by some cowboy action shooter talking about what a great idea single action cowboy guns were for trying to shoot it out with burglars.
Just because you're really in love with a dumbass gun doesn't make it any less dumb because "it's probably good enough." There are probably skeet shooters who go on about how Jack Ryan fought IRA terrorists with a double barrel Beretta. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:57:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No I'm drunk and stupid. Please, flagellate my stupid hide. I will die surrounded by useless 5.556 brass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP: You realize O'Neill didn't kill Bin Laden, right? He is also described by guys from that Unit as a seeker of the spotlight, deviated from his assigned clearance route in the objective so he could try to get a shot at Bin Laden. A show-boater. People in units like that don't like it when one of their own violates their trust and writes a book about what they do, goes on TV to talk about it, or any other schemes to shine attention on themselves. Especially when they make claims about where they were, what they did, that falsely describe the event, which shouldn't be discussed in the first place, it's not exactly the reputation you build off of to "settle" arguments on weapons selection. 
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:57:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's actually very easy. The premise is that because he was from that community, that he's competent about firearms selection and application for HD. He's still clearly in the "heard from cleatus behind the gun counter, so shotgun for HD it is" category. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This thread won't take a turn for the autistic at all. Guaranteed. The premise is that because he was from that community, that he's competent about firearms selection and application for HD. He's still clearly in the "heard from cleatus behind the gun counter, so shotgun for HD it is" category. You must be a fool thinking a early century ballistic design and weapons platforms are antiquated and have been surpassed. You must be drunk and stupid like me. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:58:32 PM EDT
[#37]
Maybe we can all go back to 4" 357 revolvers. I every shotgun argument applies to a smith and Wesson 686.
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Posted: 7/18/2017 10:59:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These threads remind me of the Guns and Ammo article written by some cowboy action shooter talking about what a great idea single action cowboy guns were for trying to shoot it out with burglars. Just because you're really in love with a dumbass gun doesn't make it any less dumb because "it's probably good enough." There are probably skeet shooters who go on about how Jack Ryan fought IRA terrorists with a double barrel Beretta. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:00:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Drunk Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP: You realize O'Neill didn't kill Bin Laden, right? He is also described by guys from that Unit as a seeker of the spotlight, deviated from his assigned clearance route in the objective so he could try to get a shot at Bin Laden. A show-boater. People in units like that don't like it when one of their own violates their trust and writes a book about what they do, goes on TV to talk about it, or any other schemes to shine attention on themselves. Especially when they make claims about where they were, what they did, that falsely describe the event, which shouldn't be discussed in the first place, it's not exactly the reputation you build off of to "settle" arguments on weapons selection. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:01:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Shouldn't we poll the other eight guys who shot UBL, subtract any ban state residents and then finally see if more pick shotgun or rifle?
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:03:29 PM EDT
[#41]
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Ok...since you have brought it up twice and noone has asked you to back up your statement, I'll bite. So if he didn't kill him, then why doesn't Bissonette come out and say it wasn't him. I mean, they both want attention right? And why don't we hear a little something publically about other seals being mad at him for making a false claim? I know they don't want to talk about it but someone somewhere besides arfcom would be saying this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP: You realize O'Neill didn't kill Bin Laden, right? He is also described by guys from that Unit as a seeker of the spotlight, deviated from his assigned clearance route in the objective so he could try to get a shot at Bin Laden. A show-boater. People in units like that don't like it when one of their own violates their trust and writes a book about what they do, goes on TV to talk about it, or any other schemes to shine attention on themselves. Especially when they make claims about where they were, what they did, that falsely describe the event, which shouldn't be discussed in the first place, it's not exactly the reputation you build off of to "settle" arguments on weapons selection. I know they don't want to talk about it but someone somewhere besides arfcom would be saying this. O'Neill canoed Bin Laden's head as he lay there dead already, making PID for intel people not on sight more difficult, and Bissionette pumped rounds into his chest. It's the kind of behavior I would expect from undisciplined PFC's in some sub-standard unit with poor NCOs, not an SMU. The whole thning is clown shoes B-rate circus with no tricks, just drunk clowns. You know who officially got Saddam? 4th Infantry Division. Even to the extent that all the google images have been cropped to cut out those 4th ID soldiers' KAC MRE handguards. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:03:29 PM EDT
[#42]
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Why exactly would a pump shotgun be better than something like an Enfield No. 5 MK1? |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:05:55 PM EDT
[#43]
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I like my ARs, and my shotguns. An experienced duck or goose hunter can, using a 12ga 3", 3 1/2" or 3 1/2" 10ga drop two or even thee ducks or geese at a time, with capacity limited to three rounds by federal law for migratory birds... International trap and skeet are doubles games... But somehow the recoil of a shotgun becomes prohibitive when some ahole is in your house? Really, sissies? And somehow that pump shotgun the duck and goose or dove hunter or deer hunter has shot thousands of times at clays and birds, deer, maybe rabbits, squirrels, quail, crows and other stuff suddenly becomes too complex to shuck? Please... And btw, the greater the recoil the easier and quicker to cycle. Thousands of deer are killed with shotguns every year, many in states where 223/5.56 is illegal because it is believed insufficiently lethal for quick, humane kills... And I'll point out that the U.S. investigated the high incidence of head shots in Iraq, discovering, again, that the 5.56 is not a reliable stopper in CQB and that soldiers and marines were using an extra round to ensure their targets were stopped... Btw 5.56 wasn't going through skinnies in Mog with no effect. They were missing
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:07:52 PM EDT
[#44]
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Mobile, but feel free to regale us with your extensive resume and experience as you've asked for mine to qualify my opinion, instead of engaging in straw-men or insults. You are the one that questioned the ability and the reasoning for not carrying a pistol of the guy who shot bin laden. You stepped in it and instead of stepping out you jumped in. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:08:06 PM EDT
[#45]
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No I'm drunk and stupid. Please, flagellate my stupid hide. I will die surrounded by useless 5.556 brass. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:09:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I say anything that requires a resume? You are the one that questioned the ability and the reasoning for not carrying a pistol of the guy who shot bin laden. You stepped in it and instead of stepping out you jumped in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Mobile, but feel free to regale us with your extensive resume and experience as you've asked for mine to qualify my opinion, instead of engaging in straw-men or insults. You are the one that questioned the ability and the reasoning for not carrying a pistol of the guy who shot bin laden. You stepped in it and instead of stepping out you jumped in. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:12:00 PM EDT
[#47]
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Pretty sure over-penetration would be a real concern with a .303. Also, in my hands at least, the shotgun would be far faster to manipulate between shots. HD shotguns would be shorter overall (18.5" barrels), and lighter too. The No 5 Mk1 has an 18.8 inch barrel. It weighs 7.1lbs, the action is super fast, and it has a 10round detachable mag. So why is one super smart and one not smart? |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:12:34 PM EDT
[#48]
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I like my ARs, and my shotguns. An experienced duck or goose hunter can, using a 12ga 3", 3 1/2" or 3 1/2" 10ga drop two or even thee ducks or geese at a time, with capacity limited to three rounds by federal law for migratory birds... International trap and skeet are doubles games... But somehow the recoil of a shotgun becomes prohibitive when some ahole is in your house? Really, sissies? And somehow that pump shotgun the duck and goose or dove hunter or deer hunter has shot thousands of times at clays and birds, deer, maybe rabbits, squirrels, quail, crows and other stuff suddenly becomes too complex to shuck? Please... And btw, the greater the recoil the easier and quicker to cycle. Thousands of deer are killed with shotguns every year, many in states where 223/5.56 is illegal because it is believed insufficiently lethal for quick, humane kills... And I'll point out that the U.S. investigated the high incidence of head shots in Iraq, discovering, again, that the 5.56 is not a reliable stopper in CQB and that soldiers and marines were using an extra round to ensure their targets were stopped... |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:13:11 PM EDT
[#49]
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Anybody saying that a shotgun is inadequate for HD is a fool. |
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Posted: 7/18/2017 11:16:09 PM EDT
[#50]
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In any situation where over-penetration is a concern EFFECTIVE shotgun rounds have the same over-penetration concerns as HD rifle rounds. The No 5 Mk1 has an 18.8 inch barrel. It weighs 7.1lbs, the action is super fast, and it has a 10round detachable mag. So why is one super smart and one not smart? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Pretty sure over-penetration would be a real concern with a .303. Also, in my hands at least, the shotgun would be far faster to manipulate between shots. HD shotguns would be shorter overall (18.5" barrels), and lighter too. The No 5 Mk1 has an 18.8 inch barrel. It weighs 7.1lbs, the action is super fast, and it has a 10round detachable mag. So why is one super smart and one not smart? According to extensive audiological investigation, the racking sound of a common shotgun is 84 decibels, while a bolt action, especially of the pull angle of a Lee Enfield only produces 67-72 decibels. As a result, the shotgun has at the very least over 10 decibels of pants-shitting, slide-racking, click-clacking, advantage. |
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