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Posted: 6/22/2017 8:31:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Huh? What change in doctrine was there with the M14? It was primarily a replacement for the M1 rifle, and used in the same way. Since USMC automatic riflemen used to have the M249 LMG, and now they have the M27 IAR, it sure looks like replacement to me. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 9:41:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Sounds like they are going to have a nice setup. Using 1 D60 in the weapon and 6 40rd Pmags would a great addition. Not to mention is the USMC actually teaches recruits to shoot at extended ranges like previously with irons allowing Marines to fully utilize the optics when possible.
Also its nice that the individual get to kit out how they want. My unit had an SOP on where everything went depending on if you were a righty or lefty. That always didn't work out so well. It will be interesting to see how cans stand up as well. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 9:47:47 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God forbid we should hand somebody a compass and a topo map instead of scraping the finish off of rifles. That or teaching people how to properly operate and talk on a radio. I could think of a thousand better skils to work on that would cost not one cent more to perfect than abusing already clean small arms. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 9:47:53 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And nearly every rifle in the armory is clean enough, you are not achieving anything by making a Marine scrub his weapon for hours. There is so much more that can be used with that time. Seriously when I got sent to the armory I would pull my rifle out and just sit there with it because I knew it was clean because I cleaned it. I am not breaking it down and going after every piece of carbon with a set of dentists tools. "Attention to detail" be damned. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:00:21 AM EDT
[#5]
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Not sure if you have any time on an HK, but the difference in the time it takes comparatively is night and day. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:20:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Only cleaning the 416 needs is the piston. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:24:52 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does that mean a Mauser, Enfield or 03 Springfield never needs cleaned by that logic? It does, but only the piston which takes 3 seconds. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:29:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Very interesting discussion. Thanks!
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:51:38 AM EDT
[#9]
From my experience, an improved 40mm round with extended range would have a far greater effect to our capabilities than a bunch of 416s.
At the end of the day, what does a hit from M855A1 fired from an M4A1 look like compared to a hit fired from an M27? |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:57:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From my experience, an improved 40mm round with extended range would have a far greater effect to our capabilities than a bunch of 416s. At the end of the day, what does a hit from M855A1 fired from an M4A1 look like compared to a hit fired from an M27? And then the M4 barrel opens up to 5moa+ at 6,000 rounds and the M27 will maintain sub 2moa accuracy past 15,000 rounds. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 11:59:21 AM EDT
[#11]
How many of the Uber squad are going to be female?
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:01:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I say the 416 doesn't need cleaning? It does, but only the piston which takes 3 seconds. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:02:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M14 was supposed to replace multiple weapon systems BAR, M1 Rifle M1/M2 carbine , Thompson and Greasegun. At least that was the idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Huh? What change in doctrine was there with the M14? It was primarily a replacement for the M1 rifle, and used in the same way. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:08:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many of the Uber squad are going to be female? |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:09:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The same, then the M4 breaks bolts at 3-6,000 rounds and the M27 will keep chugging to 20,000+. And then the M4 barrel opens up to 5moa+ at 6,000 rounds and the M27 will maintain sub 2moa accuracy past 15,000 rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
From my experience, an improved 40mm round with extended range would have a far greater effect to our capabilities than a bunch of 416s. At the end of the day, what does a hit from M855A1 fired from an M4A1 look like compared to a hit fired from an M27? And then the M4 barrel opens up to 5moa+ at 6,000 rounds and the M27 will maintain sub 2moa accuracy past 15,000 rounds. Show me. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:14:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You've shot 20,000+ of M855A1 through an M27 and at 15,000 rounds it was sub 2 moa accurate? Show me. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:22:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if you have any time on an HK, but the difference in the time it takes comparatively is night and day. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:25:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep.... M14 Replaced the BAR and I would venture to say the M1919A4 since the M60 replaced it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep.... M14 Replaced the BAR and I would venture to say the M1919A4 since the M60 replaced it. This is nothing new. In fact it mirrors the M14 and M16 program in many ways It will be interesting to see if the all-M27 idea lasts, or if -- as with the M16 -- they eventually switch to having a belt-fed LMG in each fire team. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:55:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I say the 416 doesn't need cleaning? It does, but only the piston which takes 3 seconds. Is remarkably dumb. Are you suggesting that there won't be carbon/copper fouling in the bore? Are you suggesting there is zero accumulation of fragments/crud under the extractor? Do you think a piston system has zero carbon that enters the receiver? What about all the dirt, dust, sand, rain, ocean water, MRE tobasco sauce, jalapeno cheese, blood, mud, beer, semen and sweat that a grunt will get on and in his weapon? |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:22:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You've shot 20,000+ of M855A1 through an M27 and at 15,000 rounds it was sub 2 moa accurate? Show me. So if the M4 has a 3-6,000 round bolt and barrel life with M855 imagine what it is with M855A1. I believe I have heard the M4A1 bolt and barrel life is hovering around 3,000 rounds currently with M855A1. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:24:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That... Is remarkably dumb. Are you suggesting that there won't be carbon/copper fouling in the bore? Are you suggesting there is zero accumulation of fragments/crud under the extractor? Do you think a piston system has zero carbon that enters the receiver? What about all the dirt, dust, sand, rain, ocean water, MRE tobasco sauce, jalapeno cheese, blood, mud, beer, semen and sweat that a grunt will get on and in his weapon? If something gets in the rifle it's a quick 1 second wipe down and done. Barrel cleaning is the same between weapons. However internally unless you get something in it the M27 bolt and carrier can just be ignored. They stay spotless for thousands and thousands of rounds. Here's a comparison. 100 rounds on a M4/416. 
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:33:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nah, the main barrel and the spare barrel. Both suppressed from the get go.  
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:37:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I say the 416 doesn't need cleaning? It does, but only the piston which takes 3 seconds. That carbon gets caked the fuck on there, dude. And it's not like the bolt group doesn't get dirty. It does. Especially suppressed. Cyclic rate on the HK guns is crazy high suppressed, btw. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:42:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Only cleaning the 416 needs is the piston. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:43:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How the fuck would you know? Have you ever cleaned one? That carbon gets caked the fuck on there, dude. And it's not like the bolt group doesn't get dirty. It does. Especially suppressed. Cyclic rate on the HK guns is crazy high suppressed, btw. Unsuppressed the 416 stays spotless inside the receiver. The piston gets dirty, sure but it's easy to clean. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:45:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unsuppressed the 416 stays spotless inside the receiver. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 2:05:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every gun gets dirty suppressed. Unsuppressed the 416 stays spotless inside the receiver. The piston gets dirty, sure but it's easy to clean. I know this from personal experience with a friend's MR556A1, and I've even shot a full auto HK416D post sample a few times. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 2:19:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither of these things you just posted are true. I know this from personal experience with a friend's MR556A1, and I've even shot a full auto HK416D post sample a few times. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:07:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:13:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The same, then the M4 breaks bolts at 3-6,000 rounds and the M27 will keep chugging to 20,000+. And then the M4 barrel opens up to 5moa+ at 6,000 rounds and the M27 will maintain sub 2moa accuracy past 15,000 rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
From my experience, an improved 40mm round with extended range would have a far greater effect to our capabilities than a bunch of 416s. At the end of the day, what does a hit from M855A1 fired from an M4A1 look like compared to a hit fired from an M27? And then the M4 barrel opens up to 5moa+ at 6,000 rounds and the M27 will maintain sub 2moa accuracy past 15,000 rounds. 
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:22:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:23:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M4 tested with M855.  Attached File Attached FileAnd here is the requirements for the M27 with Mk318 SOST. Reliability
3.1 System Reliability. The system should demonstrate 15,000 Mean Rounds Between Essential Function Failure (MRBEFF) for Class III malfunctions (i.e., for non-operator correctable malfunctions which cause the loss of essential functionality) and 900 MRBEFF for Class I and II malfunctions combined. Class I malfunctions are operator clearable within 10 seconds, whereas Class II malfunctions require more than 10 seconds but less than 10 minutes (for 95 percent of all Class II malfunctions that occur) to clear but can be corrected by the operator with available equipment. 3.2 Barrel Life. The system barrel should have a service life of 24,000 rounds minimum with MK318 Government ammunition. 15,000 rounds before failure. 24,000 rounds barrel life. Compare that to the M4 according to SOCOM. 600 rounds between Stoppages. 3-6,000 rounds before failure 4-6,000 rounds barrel life. Of course that was prior to M855A1. The M4A1 with M855A1 is closer to 3,000 rounds on bolt and barrels now. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:31:31 PM EDT
[#33]
If you don't believe that take it from PEO.
Granted they list the stoppage rate much higher now. Gun is still toast by 6,000 rounds with M855. M855A1 is much harder on the gun, which is why it's burning out around 3,000 rounds.  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:39:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Is the HK 416 bolt subjected to HPT like the M4 bolts?
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:43:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn, have you been listening in on my phone calls? Im behind your direction a 100%. Its about time someone on high actually looked at whats available beyond what they say your only allowed to work with, see how that effects the squad on the enemy and played around squad structure developing new tactics/direction. These arent amazeballs billion dollar development technology boondogles like the Army puts out(and the USMC is guilty of it too). This is an off the shelf lets go fuck some shit up better mentality. Love it like some gourmet crayons. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 3:45:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the HK 416 bolt subjected to HPT like the M4 bolts? However Norway's C8s don't use HPT bolts and Colt Canada doesn't do that and they still break bolts at 6,000 rounds with M855. Norway's 416 have bolt life's in excessof 10,000 rounds. I've spoken with Arctic1 and he says on average he saw 15,000+ rounds through their 416s with nothing breaking. Fact is the M16 was fine for 1940s-1950s tech, but it's a piece of crap that breaks Ricky tick compared to modern guns. Metallurgy has come a long way in 77-67 years, and the 416 takes advantage of that. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:09:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Your bolt life figures are still off.
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:09:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I posted pictures a few posts up. They were taken by KevinB. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:31:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty much zero carbon enters the receiver on the 416 unless suppressed. If something gets in the rifle it's a quick 1 second wipe down and done. Barrel cleaning is the same between weapons. However internally unless you get something in it the M27 bolt and carrier can just be ignored. They stay spotless for thousands and thousands of rounds. Here's a comparison. 100 rounds on a M4/416. http://popgun.ru/files/g/2/thumbs/1457576.jpg http://popgun.ru/files/g/2/thumbs/1457578.jpg That's 100 rounds on that M4 bolt? Was there a stick of butter and a charcoal briquet jammed in the receiver during the shooting? Dude. Seriously, have you ever even fired any of these guns, even once? This is just like your expertise on suppressive fire. The M27 is a great gun, but you talk authoritatively about things you clearly don't know a fucking thing about. There are people on this board who argue against HK guns solely because HK's self-appointed spokesman (you) is retarded. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:32:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The DI picture resembles my ARs after 2-3k. The AR bolt gets dirty. It also runs when ridiculously dirty. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:38:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Remember you said that, my friend. We are watching the US Army LSAT developments....... I like machine guns and true light support weapons, too! I like them a lot. That capability looks promising...or something like it. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:42:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a special weekend duty assignment where a squad of marines operate Uber vehicles and transport drunk Marines from watering holes to their barracks at a cyclic rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What the hell is an "Uber Squad"??? 
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:51:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your bolt life figures are still off. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:53:38 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your bolt life figures are still off. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:55:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL. That's 100 rounds on that M4 bolt? Was there a stick of butter and a charcoal briquet jammed in the receiver during the shooting? Dude. Seriously, have you ever even fired any of these guns, even once? This is just like your expertise on suppressive fire. The M27 is a great gun, but you talk authoritatively about things you clearly don't know a fucking thing about. There are people on this board who argue against HK guns solely because HK's self-appointed spokesman (you) is retarded. The pro M4 crowd is just like the M14 crowd. It's the greatest gun in the world, except in testing, but the testing is always rigged in favor of others. Every argument for the M14 can be applied to the M4. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 5:10:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Henderson Defense has some good threads with some info on bolt life. The run a rental range for Full Auto's in Vegas, the non HPT bolts have a very long service life, but even the HPT bolts last longer in their use than the 3-6k mentioned here. Mind you they are not firing M855 or M855A1; which I understand makes a difference. Especially SOCOM, whom state the M4 has a 3-6,000 round bolt life with M855. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 5:12:48 PM EDT
[#47]
I'll also add this.
Two Broken 416 bolts. Both fired 25,000 rounds from a 10.4" variant. The Mk18 gets 3,000 rounds on a good day before it snaps bolt lugs. So the 10" 416 literally gets 8.33 times the bolt life of the Mk18. 
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Posted: 6/22/2017 5:26:58 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll also add this. Two Broken 416 bolts. Both fired 25,000 rounds from a 10.4" variant. The Mk18 gets 3,000 rounds on a good day before it snaps bolt lugs. So the 10" 416 literally gets 8.33 times the bolt life of the Mk18. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/attachments/hk416-hk417-hq/40971d1459002362-hk416-bolt-broke-25k-round-count-acceptable-lifespan-fb_20160326_22_16_45_saved_picture.jpg It's a problem, that's why they had LWRC enhanced bolts in their inventory, but for the most part they just conducted training until something actually broke. Before deployment you will need a new barrel/bolt and damaged bolts will get caught during inspections. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 5:41:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would say SOCOM and PEO know more about the M4 than Henderson could ever hope to. Especially SOCOM, whom state the M4 has a 3-6,000 round bolt life with M855. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Henderson Defense has some good threads with some info on bolt life. The run a rental range for Full Auto's in Vegas, the non HPT bolts have a very long service life, but even the HPT bolts last longer in their use than the 3-6k mentioned here. Mind you they are not firing M855 or M855A1; which I understand makes a difference. Especially SOCOM, whom state the M4 has a 3-6,000 round bolt life with M855. I want to see the US military adopt the best weapon systems they can at an affordable cost. If that is the IAR or something new, then so be it. If the costs of upgrading don't make a big enough benefit over the M4 then so be it. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 6:12:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice retort. M4 tested with M855. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/Screenshot-20170622-141915-236552.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/Screenshot-20170622-141921-236553.JPG And here is the requirements for the M27 with Mk318 SOST. 900 rounds between Stoppages. 15,000 rounds before failure. 24,000 rounds barrel life. Compare that to the M4 according to SOCOM. 600 rounds between Stoppages. 3-6,000 rounds before failure 4-6,000 rounds barrel life. Of course that was prior to M855A1. The M4A1 with M855A1 is closer to 3,000 rounds on bolt and barrels now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
M4 tested with M855. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/Screenshot-20170622-141915-236552.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/414147/Screenshot-20170622-141921-236553.JPG And here is the requirements for the M27 with Mk318 SOST. Reliability
3.1 System Reliability. The system should demonstrate 15,000 Mean Rounds Between Essential Function Failure (MRBEFF) for Class III malfunctions (i.e., for non-operator correctable malfunctions which cause the loss of essential functionality) and 900 MRBEFF for Class I and II malfunctions combined. Class I malfunctions are operator clearable within 10 seconds, whereas Class II malfunctions require more than 10 seconds but less than 10 minutes (for 95 percent of all Class II malfunctions that occur) to clear but can be corrected by the operator with available equipment. 3.2 Barrel Life. The system barrel should have a service life of 24,000 rounds minimum with MK318 Government ammunition. 15,000 rounds before failure. 24,000 rounds barrel life. Compare that to the M4 according to SOCOM. 600 rounds between Stoppages. 3-6,000 rounds before failure 4-6,000 rounds barrel life. Of course that was prior to M855A1. The M4A1 with M855A1 is closer to 3,000 rounds on bolt and barrels now.
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