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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:01:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp. You know full fucking well what i mean and are playing dense for whatever pedantic reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Still? Your original comment was, "An m4 isnt going to replace a 249." You know full fucking well what i mean and are playing dense for whatever pedantic reason. I'm not psychic. If you suffered an episode of brain fade, and typed M4 when you were thinking M27, you can't expect me to know it. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:23:45 PM EDT
[#2]
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Just like the M14 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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USMC literally picked the entrant that offered the least capability upgrade over the M4. It is planned to replace the M16/M4, M249 SAW, and fill the roll of the Mk12SPR. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 5:34:55 PM EDT
[#3]
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If they want to get any useable information from this experiment they need to fill this team with men who have both actual combat experience and solid GT scores. Inexperienced boots or drooling dumbasses won't get you anything worthwhile. 
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:07:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Wonder if the USMC is looking at the LSAT / 6.5CT stuff the Army has been messing with...
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:20:03 PM EDT
[#5]
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Then you roll up with your 240s and other larger weapons that are better and suppressing by volume than a SAW to begin with. Or use some mortars or M230/M320s. You know weapons designed to assist the fireteam/squad/platoon/company in winning a firefight. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:23:12 PM EDT
[#6]
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Keep an eye out for the Charlie G in the Marine Rifle Squad one day soon. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:23:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wonder if the USMC is looking at the LSAT / 6.5CT stuff the Army has been messing with... |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:24:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep an eye out for the Charlie G in the Marine Rifle Squad one day soon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Then you roll up with your 240s and other larger weapons that are better and suppressing by volume than a SAW to begin with. Or use some mortars or M230/M320s. You know weapons designed to assist the fireteam/squad/platoon/company in winning a firefight. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:25:25 PM EDT
[#9]
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Thankfully, no trade secrets as this has been in the media lately. Yes, we are looking at that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wonder if the USMC is looking at the LSAT / 6.5CT stuff the Army has been messing with... |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 6:29:15 PM EDT
[#10]
While you're here, are there any plans to shake up the Marine Corps Marksmanship program?
I've always felt that while the KD range is good to learn fundamentals with it hurts us in the long run because it in no way relates to the way we actually fight. Or will more intense marksmanship training only be part of predeployment training? |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 7:49:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Now this is a thread. Mr. Wade is here.
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:01:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep an eye out for the Charlie G in the Marine Rifle Squad one day soon. 
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:08:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep an eye out for the Charlie G in the Marine Rifle Squad one day soon. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:01:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't doubt that. But what is ignorant about your statement is that now you think Congress is going to be amused when the Marines go back to them and say they want all new rifles again for the third time in two decades. Everyone is in the process of replacing the M16/M4 with better weapons. The 416 will likely be the one chosen across the board. Besides I have a feeling things will be done differently this time. No carbine competition or anything, they'll find a way to make it happen without the rigors of procurement system screwing them and making us retain the M4 again. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:14:22 PM EDT
[#15]
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Besides I have a feeling things will be done differently this time. No carbine competition or anything, they'll find a way to make it happen without the rigors of procurement system screwing them and making us retain the M4 again. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:21:54 PM EDT
[#16]
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So the same procurement system that you claim is utterly unable to add a decent trigger, new extractor spring, and rail to M4 (thus giving our troops the best issue rifle in the world by a fair margin) is just going to magically say "fuck it" and buy a 416s without any sort of testing or bid process? It's fielded by JSOC, so we have CRANE data on how it works and the Army/Marines are currently doing massive testing on the M16A4/M4/M4A1/M27 firing M855A1. That test should conclude this month, and will show just how poorly the M16A4/M4/M4A1 performs compared to the M27 and will most likely drive the decision to pure fleet the M27. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:25:07 PM EDT
[#17]
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Not exactly. The M14 was never intended to replace a belt-fed machine gun. the M27 isn't replacing the SAW. The saw was no longer part of the current doctrine, therefore they ditched it. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:27:46 PM EDT
[#18]
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And this is, in the same way the M14 was........a change in doctrine dictating a change in weapon. the M27 isn't replacing the SAW. The saw was no longer part of the current doctrine, therefore they ditched it. So by ditching the SAW the M27 is replacing it....in a way. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:34:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 416 is already tested. It's fielded by JSOC, so we have CRANE data on how it works and the Army/Marines are currently doing massive testing on the M16A4/M4/M4A1/M27 firing M855A1. That test should conclude this month, and will show just how poorly the M27/416 performs compared to the M16A4/M4/M4A1/M27 with 855A1 and will most likely drive the decision to pure fleet the M27. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:36:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fixed I think a Gunner would know what in the fuck he's talking about. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:42:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fixed Gunner Wade is 0306 just fyi. Who are you again @m4hk33 ? |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 10:53:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol Congress doesn't care. Everyone is in the process of replacing the M16/M4 with better weapons. The 416 will likely be the one chosen across the board. Besides I have a feeling things will be done differently this time. No carbine competition or anything, they'll find a way to make it happen without the rigors of procurement system screwing them and making us retain the M4 again. 
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Posted: 6/20/2017 10:58:02 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lol Congress doesn't care. Everyone is in the process of replacing the M16/M4 with better weapons. The 416 will likely be the one chosen across the board. Besides I have a feeling things will be done differently this time. No carbine competition or anything, they'll find a way to make it happen without the rigors of procurement system screwing them and making us retain the M4 again. The procurement system will be circumvented because HK magic. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 11:06:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In a way the M27 is replacing the SAW, it's just that they have no room for the SAW. So by ditching the SAW the M27 is replacing it....in a way. That's not exactly "replacement." That's acknowledging obsolescence in the current climate and adapting, rather than the m27 being an improvement in firearm, it's just better suited to the current theory. Replacement invites discussion about the validity of the m27 doing what the SAW did, but better. Which isn't cogent to this situation since the m27 doesn't need to out MG the SAW because the MG isn't part of the theory they are fighting with. The discussion is really "is this new combat doctrine superior to the one it replaced" rather than "is the m27 a better SAW than the M249." If doctrine was to use volume of fire (let's not argue if it's better or worse), then the SAW would compare more favorably against the M27. The change in doctrine is what made the SAW less desirable. Since sustained fire is no longer necessary, why carry the weight? Why deal with the logistics of ammo belts. Why deal with the more complex workings of a belt-fed MG? Hence, why the M27 is more desirable. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 12:48:43 AM EDT
[#25]
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And this is, in the same way the M14 was........a change in doctrine dictating a change in weapon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not exactly. The M14 was never intended to replace a belt-fed machine gun. the M27 isn't replacing the SAW. The saw was no longer part of the current doctrine, therefore they ditched it. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 12:55:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Soldiers"???? 
Shouldn't that read, "Marines"? However, as an Infantryman I think the proper title,.... and the only "Army soldiers" or Marines I give a shit about.....is "Infantryman" 
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Posted: 6/21/2017 12:57:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And you know better than Gunner Wade? Gunner Wade is 0306 just fyi. Who are you again @m4hk33 ? 
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Posted: 6/21/2017 1:08:51 AM EDT
[#28]
Destruction squad.
A Carl G gunner, suppressed M27s for all, a better 203 for team leaders, one 240 as a constant base of fire(or something in .338NM) and a hand held 60 mm mortar just for fun. And portable reliable radio for the squad leader that doesnt lose comm after 2 km. POS prc152. That would be a squad of destruction right there. Bigly. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 1:17:27 AM EDT
[#29]
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Making dreams come true one post at a time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Keep an eye out for the Charlie G in the Marine Rifle Squad one day soon. I am assuming "Charlie G" is a Carl Gustaf recoilless rifle. If not ignore me. 
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Posted: 6/21/2017 1:27:41 AM EDT
[#30]
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Not when the shooter has only ONE D60, as will likely be the case. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep. The M27 has a sustained rate of fire of 36 rounds per minute. That means it can fire a D60 every 2 minutes indefinitely... Pile of d60s behind sandbags at a FOB would seem cool, though. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 1:35:27 AM EDT
[#31]
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Since when did HK reduce the $3000.00 pricetag down to just a hair over $1200? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cost is not an issue when the guns will be running just a hair over what the Marines paid for the M16/M4. $684 +optic* +rail +light* +IR laze* +buis +forward grip* +sling* *these need to be bought/attached to a 416 also... and cost more than 1200-684 |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 1:56:46 AM EDT
[#32]
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That will give Swede a wargasm. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Keep an eye out for the Charlie G in the Marine Rifle Squad one day soon. 
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Posted: 6/21/2017 11:52:35 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wade would seem to be the more knowledgeable poster. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 8:57:38 PM EDT
[#34]
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They will spend needles hours at the armory until small unit leaders and company commanders are educated and learn there is no need to clean weapons for half the day just because they gave nothing better to do. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:06:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am going to approach the manner in which we "clean" our weapons, but I must approach that through the USMC Ordnance community. Good thing is, they are "gun people" and they know just as well as anyone else that we do far more damage to our weapons by "cleaning" them than we ever do by firing them. That's an institutional rudder steer that's going to take some time to put into the references. And it is not going to go over well at, for example, the Recruit Depots. I can live with that if we can get the Operating Forces to stop destroying their weapons with ridiculous cleaning standards which detract from readiness and greatly increase cost. All in the tools and techniques being employed. Preaching to the choir as we all understand there is no reason to clean an AR to spotless except in a training/teaching situation. Making recruits clean their AR to white glove condition is valuable training for other purposes and does not necessarily require damaging the rifle. ETA: Proper lube is going to smudge the white gloves. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:06:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am going to approach the manner in which we "clean" our weapons, but I must approach that through the USMC Ordnance community. Good thing is, they are "gun people" and they know just as well as anyone else that we do far more damage to our weapons by "cleaning" them than we ever do by firing them. That's an institutional rudder steer that's going to take some time to put into the references. And it is not going to go over well at, for example, the Recruit Depots. I can live with that if we can get the Operating Forces to stop destroying their weapons with ridiculous cleaning standards which detract from readiness and greatly increase cost. I saw too many M4/M16s with nearly all of the anodizing worn off the rifle not from use but from being scrubbed for hours on end. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:07:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Destruction squad. A Carl G gunner, suppressed M27s for all, a better 203 for team leaders, one 240 as a constant base of fire(or something in .338NM) and a hand held 60 mm mortar just for fun. And portable reliable radio for the squad leader that doesnt lose comm after 2 km. POS prc152. That would be a squad of destruction right there. Bigly. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:09:15 PM EDT
[#38]
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AR can be cleaned to spotless inspection condition without damage as I assume you well understand. All in the tools and techniques being employed. Preaching to the choir as we all understand there is no reason to clean an AR to spotless except in a training/teaching situation. Making recruits clean their AR to white glove condition is valuable training for other purposes and does not necessarily require damaging the rifle. This is an issue outside of bootcamp, there is no point for a Marine to go to the armory, break down and clean his weapon when the weapon isn't dirty. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:15:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR can be cleaned to spotless inspection condition without damage as I assume you well understand. All in the tools and techniques being employed. Preaching to the choir as we all understand there is no reason to clean an AR to spotless except in a training/teaching situation. Making recruits clean their AR to white glove condition is valuable training for other purposes and does not necessarily require damaging the rifle. ETA: Proper lube is going to smudge the white gloves. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:18:30 PM EDT
[#40]
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Look I don't think you understand how much time is wasted and wear forced on the average Marine's weapon because he his forced to scrub it. This is an issue outside of bootcamp, there is no point for a Marine to go to the armory, break down and clean his weapon when the weapon isn't dirty. Attention to detail There is a realistic level of cleaning that can be acheived without scrubbing off the blueing and damage to the weapons. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:18:53 PM EDT
[#41]
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Look I don't think you understand how much time is wasted and wear forced on the average Marine's weapon because he his forced to scrub it. This is an issue outside of bootcamp, there is no point for a Marine to go to the armory, break down and clean his weapon when the weapon isn't dirty. From a tax paying outsider looking in I would prefer Marines learned how to break down and clean rifles without damage than attend SHARP training. I would much prefer Marines were cleaning rifles they got filthy from advanced marksmanship training.
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:35:51 PM EDT
[#42]
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I am going on the assumption that the cleaning serves a different training purpose than "How to Clean a Rifle". From a tax paying outsider looking in I would prefer Marines learned how to break down and clean rifles without damage than attend SHARP training. I would much prefer Marines were cleaning rifles they got filthy from advanced marksmanship training. It is nothing but a time waster that is actually hindering the life of the weapon. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:39:58 PM EDT
[#43]
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Discipline Attention to detail There is a realistic level of cleaning that can be acheived without scrubbing off the blueing and damage to the weapons. There is so much more that can be used with that time. Seriously when I got sent to the armory I would pull my rifle out and just sit there with it because I knew it was clean because I cleaned it. I am not breaking it down and going after every piece of carbon with a set of dentists tools. "Attention to detail" be damned. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:42:34 PM EDT
[#44]
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There is honestly no reason behind it, it's not a punishment. It is nothing but a time waster that is actually hindering the life of the weapon. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:43:07 PM EDT
[#45]
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There is honestly no reason behind it, it's not a punishment. It is nothing but a time waster that is actually hindering the life of the weapon. Maybe spend the time Dry Firing? |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 9:49:30 PM EDT
[#46]
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And nearly every rifle in the armory is clean enough, you are not achieving anything by making a Marine scrub his weapon for hours. There is so much more that can be used with that time. Seriously when I got sent to the armory I would pull my rifle out and just sit there with it because I knew it was clean because I cleaned it. I am not breaking it down and going after every piece of carbon with a set of dentists tools. "Attention to detail" be damned. 
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Posted: 6/21/2017 10:00:26 PM EDT
[#47]
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There is honestly no reason behind it, it's not a punishment. It is nothing but a time waster that is actually hindering the life of the weapon. That or teaching people how to properly operate and talk on a radio. I could think of a thousand better skils to work on that would cost not one cent more to perfect than abusing already clean small arms. |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 10:26:18 PM EDT
[#48]
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you are not achieving anything by making a Marine scrub his weapon for hours. You're embedding a deep seated urge to clean every weapon to bare shiny metal that they know in their heart of hearts is required for the weapon to function. Then when they become team leaders and squad leaders they'll be sure to pass that obsession to every boot under them just like we did 30 years ago when I was in the Army Infantry. With any luck that obsession will drive young troops to resort to caustic chemicals to clean carbon off the face of the pistons and if it strips off parkerizing or damages chrome plating then so be it. (There's some sarcasm in there for those who can't figure it out.) |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 8:02:11 AM EDT
[#49]
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God forbid we should hand somebody a compass and a topo map instead of scraping the finish off of rifles. That or teaching people how to properly operate and talk on a radio. I could think of a thousand better skils to work on that would cost not one cent more to perfect than abusing already clean small arms. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 8:25:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And this is, in the same way the M14 was........a change in doctrine dictating a change in weapon. the M27 isn't replacing the SAW. The saw was no longer part of the current doctrine, therefore they ditched it. |
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