TL;DR: My truck was totaled, and the insurance company is trying to screw me based on a fraudulent software tool available only to insurance companies.

My truck was rear-ended - hard - two weeks ago. The frame was twisted and would have required total replacement. The shop estimate apparently would've turned it from a 6.5' bed with a backup camera and parking sensors into a 5.5' bed without them, so I don't trust them, but that doesn't matter anyway. The point is the truck is totaled.

I worked up a valuation based on a comparable listing (which is almost identical to my truck) and valuation websites. I used receipts for the fixed aftermarket parts, the car seat and base, sales tax, all of that. My valuation is (of course to me) fair. This valuation was $31,000 for me. A fair valuation (and what I would actually take) is probably closer to $28,500 to $29,000 total (value plus sales tax).

Liberty Mutual comes back with a CCC report that's at $23,000 total. The options listed for my truck aren't even close to accurate.

The second CCC report now offers $25,000 total. The options still aren't correct. Oddly enough, all comparable vehicles have increased in value. Some of their options changed. This makes no sense.

The third CCC report now offers $25,400 total. The options are finally correct (with the exception of the trailer brake controller). Once again, all comparable vehicles have changed, increasing in value.

I don't know if you have any experience with these things, but CCC has been subject to numerous lawsuits for undervaluing consumer cars. I get this - they sell their product to insurance companies because it helps them avoid paying a fair value when their insured drivers plow into stopped cars at 50 MPH. That's all well and good. Most people online say make sure the options are correct and find comparable vehicles. OK, great. One is for sale and is almost a perfect match. It's valued at $26,400.

The report itself shows that my truck has fewer miles than the comparable truck (by 139, so it's almost identical). The report also shows that the options my truck has are worth at least $875 more (they are itemized with a dollar value). The report shows that my truck, prior to the accident, had nothing wrong with it. They appear to apply a universal condition adjustment (probably what car websites call "good"), but I was still docked for one minor prior professional repair. While this is clearly double-counting (the "good" condition factors in potential prior repair), it too is quantified as a $531 value hit.

So there's all of this evidence provided in the report that shows my truck should be worth between $500 and $1000 more than the nearest comparable truck. Instead it's valued over $2000 less. There is ZERO reason for this. This report does not show any work for my vehicle and instead seems to include a big "fuck you" adjustment. My insurance adjuster was no help and is either unwilling or unable to defend the report or even offer a simple explanation. His manager has done nothing. I contacted their Presidential Customer Service or whatever and they haven't done anything. I filed a complaint with the Virginia SCC Bureau of Insurance, but I doubt that will do anything.

Fortunately, I don't need their rental and I don't need the money. I can do this all day long. I think they assume a report that looks technical is enough to fool people, and they are already up the creek without a car. They may need the money to get a new one.

I just think this may turn into an interesting game of them saying "we don't negotiate" (great, I don't either) and then seeing how much they negotiate. It's rather infuriating.

Insurance companies are probably the most corrupt businesses in existence.  

Tagging for outcome.

They don't like the L word, just saying... Get that necked checked out.

Go out to Auto Trader and do your comps there. You can find several vehicles almost identical to yours, then tell them to get fucking real.

They do the same bullshit with Medical Bills, auditing them for "reasonable and customary charges"......There are only two hospitals in my town, the next closest real hospital is over 100 miles away and most are 300 miles away. Whatever our two local hospitals charge IS the usual and customary charge for our area, end of story. But, they want to argue the fucking point as if my client will somehow get a discount because they don't want to pay the full bill.

Those are handled separately. My wife did suffer injuries and that is being handled separately. Interestingly enough, I read that many people hire injury lawyers because they aren't satisfied with the value they get for their car.

After getting fucked on their car as so many people are, they decide they AREN'T getting fucked again. You would be surprised how many clients come to me because they feel they were screwed on their PD claims.

You can't use For Sale ads as a valuation basis.  Asking price does not equal selling price. 

I found a nearly perfect comp - another loaded FX4 five miles from home - and so did they. Their adjusted valuation, or whatever they call it, is actually fair for that vehicle. It actually looks OK for most vehicles that have details provided. It just doesn't for mine, and there's no reason. Perhaps this is why nobody is even trying to explain it.

I personally suspect that they really have no idea how to read that report, much less analyze it. The "senior claims adjuster" handling my case, the one time he used insurance terms, told me they don't owe me replacement cost but instead actual cash value. I responded that in the event he wasn't aware, vehicle replacement cost is defined as the cost to purchase a new vehicle (a 2017 F-150) with a similar trim level and options, while actual cash value is defined as replacement cost less depreciation. By definition, the cost to purchase a used vehicle (a 2012 F-150) factors in depreciation and the two are identical.

I mean, if all the adjuster is doing is punching a few numbers and checking some boxes in a computer program without knowing what he's doing, I'm not sure what I expect.

I don't know all the particulars of your case, two sides to every story and all that... but just wanted to clear a few things up.  Any owned property in the car won't be covered, like a car seat.  Custom equipment is usually covered on an actual cash value basis w/ most companies, up to a certain dollar amount.  Sales tax is not figured into the equation at all, so your numbers are off by at least the car seat and sales tax.  Lastly, most insurance pay-outs are not retail value, they are actual cash value.  This means wholesale value, or dealer trade-in value.  

If you buy a new vehicle for 30k before tax, tag, and title... and then proceed to total it the following day, you're not getting 30k plus tax, tag, and title.  You won't even get 30k, because depreciation.  I'm not saying its right, that's the way the business works.  Many companies offer new car replacement to cover this, but of course you have to pay extra

If you want to get into the particulars, shoot me a PM.

Not anymore I wouldn't.

Stick to your guns.  They'll eventually settle.  If you don't need the money you can play the long game.  I helped my friend through a similar situation.  The insurance company tried to fix his car ($25,000 car new) and spent $15,000 for the first repair.  I pointed out there was still a twist in the frame, the A-Arm was bent and the trans mount was twisted.  They denied that any of that was from the wreck even though my buddy bought the car new off the lot and the wreck occured at about 10,000mi...so essentially a new car.  They played fuck fuck games while trying to fix this, then that...eventually the twisted trans mount put enough pressure on the transmission case to crack it dumping all the fluid everywhere while driving down the interstate.  So they fixed it again under the same claim.  

Finally after spending $39,000 in repairs (on a $25,000 car) they fired the adjuster, totaled the car, and wrote my friend a check for full MSRP.  It only took him a year of taking it back every single time they did a repair after driving it for 1-2 days.

I can verify this statement. Probably 80% of my injury clients initially spend more time bitching about the property damage issues. I can't tell you how many lawsuits result from an insurance company trying to nickel and dime someone over a car's value or a hospital bill (most of them). 

First of all, the replacement cost of the car seat and base were covered no questions asked, no receipt provided. I simply replaced them with what we had, which was inexpensive.

Second, sales tax, title fees, and registration fees are allowed in the state of Virginia, so they are added on to the vehicle's base value.

Third, there is no personal property in this situation. The aftermarket parts (stainless running boards, fiberglass tonneau cover, toolbox, and spray-in liner) are factored in using actual cash value. I have no complaints about this. I am not asking for the cost to replace with a brand new tonneau cover or anything like that.

While I wholeheartedly disagree with the concept that actual cash value is based on wholesale value or dealer trade-in value, my argument actually has nothing to do with that. There are 11 comparable vehicles listed in the report. Each one has the sales price (or list price), the dealer "take" price, if known, and the adjusted value based on options, mileage, and condition (if known). These values roughly equate to trade-in or private party value, but definitely not retail. My point is HOWEVER they calculate the value, my vehicle compares favorably to ALL of the comps, yet it is inexplicably valued below 8 out of 11. They are calculating the actual cash value of all the other vehicles and then saying, with no justification, that mine is worth less.

I've done my homework here.

You admittedly inflated your number, and started at $3,500 over what you think you would take.

Insurance company which does the professionally, in one of the most regulated industries, comes in at $5,000 under what you think you should get.

But THEY are committing fraud and trying to screw you, while you are just being reasonable.

A guy hit my Lincoln. The insurance offer was way low. I called his insurance company and told them what my cars value was, and oh, by the way, my back started to hurt at the time of the accident and has progressively been getting worse.


I had a check and a release to sign a couple days later for my amount.

What the fuck is CCC?

PD and BI are different, either by practice or by statute or regulation.  In my state, the carrier is obliged to make PD payments properly.

Check with your state insurance commissioner.  They will often take consumer complaints and investigate them.  There are several online appraisal services, such as KBB. Advertised prices are not comparables unless you can prove the sales price.  That will require a little telephone work.  You could spring for an appraisal, but it looks like you're not that far apart.  If they stuck at their initial offer, then I would definitely say to get an appraisal because the dispute was large.

In what way did I state that I inflated my number? I used an average of three valuation websites with an accurate listing of options and a "good" value, which is exactly what the vehicle is. The comparable for-sale listing was actually below that value. My worksheet included the asking price for the comparable vehicles, taxes and fees, and the aftermarket parts. I did not state that anything on that worksheet was worth more than I believed it was, and I was honest with the adjuster and said that I do not know legally what is required here, but if it's retail replacement cost this is a) what I paid for these parts, with receipts provided, and b) what they would cost now.

Aside from that, you clearly haven't read what I wrote. I started with an "everything goes my way" value, much like dealers do when listing vehicles for MSRP. Of course I would accept less, just as anybody selling anything would. That doesn't mean they're being fraudulent. I didn't accuse the company of committing fraud, either.

Insurance companies are nothing more than organized crime in my opinion. Corporate Gangsters.

Wanna see an adjuster's head explode?  Tell them you want to be paid for the difference in value between your non-wrecked vehicle and now wrecked-but repaired vehicle.   Nobody is paying you the same amount of money for a vehicle that has been substantially damaged as compared to a similar vehicle with no history of significant repairs.  It is a real financial loss, but insurance companies want you to forget all about that pesky little fact.

CCC is actually the estimating computer program, I am a Body Shop Manager and use it daily.

NADA value is the best you can hope for not private or business listings.  Go get a nada value based on your VIN

I've looked at thousands of CCC valuations. I've looked at thousands of Mitchell's TLV valuations.  I've looked at reports comparing the two.  If the correct information is put in they are pretty damn close.  The sticking point no matter how accurate you and your adjuster are is you have no idea how accurate the the lot monkey is that collects the comparable vehicle info for CCC.  That car for sale across town for $10k may or may not have all those options listed by CCC.

Get the options right is first thing.  Get the conditioning right is second thing.  You need to get the condition definitions from the Ins Co.  Believe it or not CCC has a couple dozen versions of that conditioning guideline.  It can be set to whatever the Ins Co wants.  By definition your truck may be "dealer ready" and worth more than "private party".  You may find that the Ins Co is not following the guidelines at all and that would be bad.

Neither company when pushed likes to give out their formulas for, "how they make the sausage".  Trade secrets, I guess.  

OP - I've seen what you are saying on the reports.  If you want to send me a copy I'll look at it.  One other thing you can do is make them run a wider radius on your search or run a new and different set of comparables.  The patient man wins this one.  If all else fails call you state DOI and file a complaint.

I don't work for Liberty Mutual.  I do work in Insurance.

Op, I went thru this on mine..mine was totaled...but the adjuster wanted to fix it..I lol at him on the phone.. In the end hat my lawyer said worked...do some research..figure out what's there, and what it is worth to you, if they won't even get close...just tell them your lawyer will deal with it..Luckily the adjuster got real on the second call..truck price was good, my add on's didn't exist..but we squared those up on that call....
 I would tell them flat out...This is your offer, this is mine..I will meet you exactly in the middle or I will hire the best lawyer I can find and you can deal with him....

Details on the subject truck, other than it's totaled?

Fuck SafeCo/Liberty Mutual.

Wife worked for them as an adjuster and manager for several years... nothing good to say about them.

I read exactly what you wrote.  

The question is, did YOU read what you wrote?

You wrote "...trying to screw you...." in the title, and then you wrote "...the insurance company is trying to screw me based on a fraudulent software tool..."  in the first sentence.  

I didn't put words in your mouth.

Actually they aren't. It is just that everyone likes to cheap out on coverage because they want to save a few bucks per month. Then when they have a claim they bitch and whine that the insurance company is screwing them. It is really hilarious actually. Maybe if you guys bothered to read your policy or had a good agent that can explain things to you then you would be made whole. Instead you save money for a pizza every month.

You are dealing with an adjuster.  His full time, 40+ hour a week job is to screw guys like you for every dime they can.  Lawyer up every accident.  Insurance companies they are nothing more than  legalized  crime syndicates.

No, they aren't.  They are one of the most heavily regulated businesses that exist.  As someone else said everyone wants cheap insurance until they need insurance.  

There are two kinds of people who buy insurance, those who buy it because the law says they need it to drive, and those who want to protect themselves from loss.

Insurance is a legal business model where they collect enough premiums to cover expected losses, operating expenses, and make a legal profit. Everyone thinks their clapped out seven year old car is worth top dollar.  Just like shopping for used cars on Craig's List tells us, people have crazy ideas of the value of used things.  

Insurance companies perform this service day in and day out, and have an obligation to not overpay on claims.  It's pretty easy to value a used car once you abandon the idea that it's any different than any other similar car.

ah, gotcha

I talked with a manager today and she actually clarified a few things for me. The things in the report that looked way out of place make some level of sense, albeit confusing.

The way my vehicle's value is calculated, supposedly, is that it's an average of the 11 comparable vehicles. As mine was loaded (near the highest possible MSRP), this penalizes my vehicle. However, they adjust the value of each vehicle, up or down, based on the differences in mileage and options between that vehicle and mine. The vehicle as a whole depreciates at a 50% rate, more or less, while the options depreciate at a 70%-75% rate, so this still penalizes me but not quite as much.

The shop decreased the value by $531 for the prior repair. Whether accurate or not, this is actually allowed by Virginia state law as a specific itemized deduction for betterment and depreciation. However, they adjusted the value of each vehicle down by $2,302 to account for "conditioning," which is not allowed as a blanket charge. The exact charges must be itemized with a fair and explicit dollar amount. She explained this to me as the amount it would take to make the vehicle in dealer sale condition, but this effectively counts depreciation twice. I proposed a settlement amount for the actual average of the 11 comparable vehicles (it was off), exclusive of that amount but inclusive of the $531 paint depreciation, plus sales tax. We'll see what they say.

What about when you have to deal with the at fault parties insurance company there champ?

Don't have to worry about that when you have good insurance there champ.

If this is your insurance company I highly doubt that you were insured for coverage of your accessories or "upgrades".

Not mine. Theirs. Their property damage covers aftermarket parts. I mean, it covers whatever they destroy, whether it's a mailbox, a street sign, or whatever. They damaged property, they fix it.

Ok. Didn't see that mentioned.

and they have huge lobbying groups spreading money around at both the federal level and state level which results in laws that allow them to screw you.

So they were trying to screw him out of $2300 (in a way that is not allowed).

Color me surprised. Insurance companies make every effort to not pay out money. Medical, auto, home, all of them. Yes, they need to make money to make it worthwhile to stay in business. They don't need to screw everyone over while doing that.

And we know some people on ARF who work in insurance.

My answer to a similar situation was:
I don't want a check, I want a similar truck. If that is what you think my truck is worth, then you should have absolutely no problem buying one for me at that price. I will even pick it up.
The look on his face was epic.

I've had 2 totaled vehicles in the last couple years. Actually been happy with what the insurance offered they were close to kb if not equal. The first car they were trying to fix which made no sense so I had it picked up from one shop and taken to another that dissected it  and showed it had frame damage so it got totaled. The 2nd was hail pretty light like you have to look real hard to see it but thye totaled it and we after salvage value it was paid off so we kept it. It's a great car and now it's free.

Excuse me, if you are in a wreck no fault of your own you have to settle with the at fault parties insurance company.  Both property and medical has to be settled.  Your own insurance as nothing to do with it.  If that was the case then there would be a lot of ambulance chasing attorneys out of jobs.

The amount of derp in these auto insurance threads never fails to amaze me.

Having a look at who your local elected reps take money from can be real eye-opening.  Insurance companies pharmaceuticals and oil industry are always in the top five.

Short answer?

Where do you think bullshit like Seatbelt laws, Drunk Driving Checkpoints and lowering the BAC to Zero essentially, Mandatory Airbags, Mandatory Backup Cameras, Car seats until kids are 29 or married comes from?

Liberty Mutual has ads on TV morning, noon and night. I wondered what their assertion "Liberty stands with you" actually means.  Unfortunately now we know.

And after the look, then what happened?

YUP, worked great for us.

Kid decided to park his dad's car (some little jap job with a skid plate under the front end ... IN my wife's trunk.  (she was stopped at a stoplight)
She went to the hospital to cover her ass, in an ambulance to get chedked out.

She was fine, we sent the police report to the insurance, I was going to have a local body guy do it for cash... I'd get the parts.  Our insurance paid the bill, sans a deductable.  I wasn't eeven worried,  I needed about 5K to fix it, a woman at the insurance was decent, was going to cut me a check for the blue book which would have covered it. ( car had 23K miles on it but it a 2001 Buick lesabre pro tour edition...
Hours later another woman calls me, she's a shitty bitch, OK.. sent her inspector out, he said yeah NP we can total it, you'll get the cjeck...
broad offers us 3K.  

I had the hospital send them the bill ( and notified our insurance)
bitch wouldn't budge, wanted medical records too which I wouldn't release.  this is where she got crunchy but still wouldn't move.

I called a personal injury attorney. ... took the car to the highest priced, best reputation place I coulkd find, threw the injury in the attorneys hands.

we still havent settled on a settlement, BUT the car repair was done and paid for, along with a brand new rental for the 3 weeks it was there.  I told the shop owner to take his time and do it right.  *wink wink*
His receptionist who I think is his mom told us that woman at the insurance is insane.

Moral of story.  get an attorney and screw the insurance as hard as you possibly can.

When I'm done I'll cost these assholes at least 10K,  the first chick was smart .. alpha bitch cost her company a ton instead.

Lawyer

I must have gotten lucky with mine or had a better insurance company.  In 2008, my 2004 Infiniti G35 coupe was totaled by some idiot who turned in front of me.  They offered me something like $18,500 telling me they based that on "fair" condition.  I instantly said no and that the car was in pristine condition.  Right there on the phone, they said OK, we'll give you $22,000, which was right in line with the KBB/NADA value.  Deal and I'm out.  I needed to get an SUV anyway.