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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:24:51 PM EDT
[#1]
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1) 2 has already been done. you can buy them shockwave. http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=2947. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have two questions. (1) Is the short (Sully?) stock now no longer a stock?  After all, if something like the shockwave can be shouldered, and now be considered a stock - how the can Sully stock of equal length be considered a stock? It seems to me - from reading the ATF opinion - that mounting braces further out on the buffer tube culd still technically be problematic. Of course, given all of this confusion, nobody will probably care about any of their opinions on this again, but it is funny to me now that there can be non-stock braces that are now longer than actual stocks.
(2) Who is going to be first to mount a shockwave (or whatever) to a Glock? And which genius will write a letter about that? 
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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:33:19 PM EDT
[#2]
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This entire argument is exactly why the NFA shoudl go away. How many hours have been wasted by the ATF trying to make sense of something as stupid as a brace. Personally, I think they should have said "You can only have a brace on your pistol if you have a disability that warrants the need." What able-bodied moron out there actually uses a brace for the purpose it was designed? Who wants to have a firearm attached to their body? It's fucking retarded. So by allowing people to shoulder these, they're essentially negated the need for people to go through the process of getting an SBR. Buy a pistol received, buy this stupid brace, and use it as a stock. Why not just say, "Go ahead and put a regular stock on it"? THIS shows just how stupid the whole SBR thing even is if they're pretty much allowing it to happen. I can carry a loaded AR15 pistol in my car under my CCW - I can't carry a loaded SBR - For years my state didn't allow SBR - The process through my state is cumbersome - You need a permission slip to cross state lines. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:41:10 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm happy for everyone that likes the brace option, but the fact that this is allowed is proof that SBR's need to be removed from the NFA. It's a silly archaic law that needs to be changed.
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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:45:46 PM EDT
[#4]
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You realize that there are benefits to an AR pistol? I can carry a loaded AR15 pistol in my car under my CCW - I can't carry a loaded SBR - For years my state didn't allow SBR - The process through my state is cumbersome - You need a permission slip to cross state lines. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:55:25 PM EDT
[#5]
How many folks have ordered a shockwave blade since this thread started?
BTW, they are $51.70 out the door at KAK. SG Ammo is out. 
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Posted: 4/25/2017 8:57:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Our own worst enemies. All the proof I'll ever need is right here in this thread.
I'll write a letter, which is what caused this shitstorm, because I don't have 30 hours to research it. We should ban braces for all but the handicapped. Sheesh. I'd say unbelievable, but not really |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:00:52 PM EDT
[#7]
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He needs to make more videos. I was subscribed to his YT channel awhile ago, but he rarely puts out vids. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This pic is now legal?! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/dubstyl/C9B14B87-F5F6-442F-A516-7A442D1907C5_zps2jljlqxb.jpg
He needs to make more videos. I was subscribed to his YT channel awhile ago, but he rarely puts out vids. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:14:25 PM EDT
[#8]
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I was thanking him for responding and clarifying his position. It wasn't intended to be a form of agreement. Almost every advocate of SBRs over braces seems to focus on looks alone so it was interesting to see someone try to make a "functionality" argument. It seemed like a stretch and indeed it was. The only point where he made even a little sense was the adjustability one, but this afternoon I learned these two things exist: http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2017/03/SB-Tactical-SBPDW.jpg http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/TailHook.jpg So yeah, its basically all bullshit for all the reasons you listed and more. LOP? Come on, you can make the LOP anything you want as long as it's less than 13.5" apparently. Cheek weld? Braces and stocks are both round on top...that's not rocket science. If adjustability is your thing then the pictures above debunk that. Stability? The KAK is built like a brick shit house when paired with the KAK tube. The ONLY reason you'd pay $200 and wait a year is for a very specific stock or for looks alone. To me that's not worth it. The braces seem to provide more legal flexibility, all the functionality of a stock, and don't require me to invite the man in to my life. I'll be buying one of the above options I do believe. Look, you don't have to like the reasons I gave, but it still doesn't mean that it is bullshit. Now that noisy long winded nonsense and no signal you just made trying to win the argument, that was bullshit all on it's own. And FYI: that first one costs more than the stamp and only has three positions and doesn't give a good cheek weld. The second offers the same cheek weld which made me not like OEM stocks, and a meh LOP. The pictures did not debunk anything at all, so I don't know why you're muddying the waters with BS opinions that you disguised as facts. And the KAK is flimsy made, has no cheak weld, is very uncomfortable, and all around sucks. So in reality, the ONLY reason buying that stamp is for function alone. And by the way, the minute you filled out that 4473, was enough to invite da man!!!!! in your life. Christ, this isn't hard. Just say you don't want to pay da man!!!!!!! instead of BS'ing this any further. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:14:40 PM EDT
[#9]
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Personally, I think they should have said "You can only have a brace on your pistol if you have a disability that warrants the need." Hi there, would you care to expand on the "warrants the need" comment? |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:26:17 PM EDT
[#10]
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So if red loctite makes the shockwave brace permanently affixed, would that same logic apply to muzzle devices? ;) |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:31:22 PM EDT
[#11]
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Time to draft a letter!!! |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:59:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Now you need to decide if you should use a pistol buffer tube or a rifle buffer tube.
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:02:59 PM EDT
[#13]
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I don't understand at all why the brace being "permanently attached" is a bad thing in any way. If anything I'd think they would prefer it to be locked on in some manner rather than adjustable. Is it because they want it to feel shquishy if you shoulder it or something? I just don't see any angle why that keeps getting a mention. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:04:37 PM EDT
[#14]
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Now you need to decide if you should use a pistol buffer tube or a rifle buffer tube. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:06:24 PM EDT
[#15]
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I thought that was strange, even by ATF reasoning, as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't understand at all why the brace being "permanently attached" is a bad thing in any way. If anything I'd think they would prefer it to be locked on in some manner rather than adjustable. Is it because they want it to feel shquishy if you shoulder it or something? I just don't see any angle why that keeps getting a mention. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:07:23 PM EDT
[#16]
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@pathfinder74 Hi there, would you care to expand on the "warrants the need" comment? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Personally, I think they should have said "You can only have a brace on your pistol if you have a disability that warrants the need." Hi there, would you care to expand on the "warrants the need" comment? |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:13:45 PM EDT
[#17]
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Easy man. Think this through. Shouldering a brace is where it all starts. One minute you're shouldering a shockwave, the next you're getting "Berzerker" tattooed on you're forehead. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Serious question, what does this really mean in the practical use of AR pistols? Am I clear to shoulder my shockwave? Does anybody know?
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:43:02 PM EDT
[#18]
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The folding version costs more than a stamp.  |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 11:14:34 PM EDT
[#19]
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I'm just guessing at their ass backwards logic here, but I think they mean if you have it fixed so far out you can't use it as a brace, then you must have intended to use it as a stock. I'm not a lawyer and can't tell you how that would play in court, or if they would pursue it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just guessing at their ass backwards logic here, but I think they mean if you have it fixed so far out you can't use it as a brace, then you must have intended to use it as a stock. I'm not a lawyer and can't tell you how that would play in court, or if they would pursue it. By "permanent affixing," ATF considers that to be adding permanent Loctite to the large set screw that secures the Blade into the dimples in the KAK tube. As long as you don't red Loctite the set screw in place, ATF considers it to be "temporarily placed" and "perfectly okay to shoulder." (He didn't beat around the bush on this topic.) http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/24/breaking-news-update-atf-reversal-letter-sb-tactical/ (see comments) |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 11:45:22 PM EDT
[#20]
This all reminds me of an odd conversation I had little while ago. I was at work and a guy comes in that touts himself as a big gun guy.
He normally comes in and inconsiderately chats me up about gun stuff. Usually in annoyed because I'm super busy working. That day he was the only one there at the moment. I decide I'll humor him this time. After some gun rant I excitedly tell him about the tailhook. I bring up the website and am half way into explaining why it's awesome. Suddenly he cuts me off. "You see that's the problem with this stuff". He goes into this whole rant on braces being bad because people buy them to make sbr's. Then he says ar's are assault weapons. (He even has two of them himself) . I smile the whole time thinking wtf bro. Finally another customer comes in and saves me. I know csb but I wonder about those folks. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 11:54:27 PM EDT
[#21]
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Yea, well I could grasp that easily, but read this from KAK's phone call to the ATF: Length of pull is then covered, but says it's fine as long as it's less than 13.x inches. Just don't use loctite, even if it is shorter than that basically. So WTF does loctite have to do with any of this??? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/24/breaking-news-update-atf-reversal-letter-sb-tactical/ (see comments) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm just guessing at their ass backwards logic here, but I think they mean if you have it fixed so far out you can't use it as a brace, then you must have intended to use it as a stock. I'm not a lawyer and can't tell you how that would play in court, or if they would pursue it. By "permanent affixing," ATF considers that to be adding permanent Loctite to the large set screw that secures the Blade into the dimples in the KAK tube. As long as you don't red Loctite the set screw in place, ATF considers it to be "temporarily placed" and "perfectly okay to shoulder." (He didn't beat around the bush on this topic.) http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/24/breaking-news-update-atf-reversal-letter-sb-tactical/ (see comments)  Arbitrary just like everything else the ATF does.
I find it very hard to believe that an ATF agent explicitly stated that shouldering a brace was okay, but then again its just one idiot in the whole bunch, and some of them did approve Form 1's for machine guns. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 11:55:04 PM EDT
[#22]
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You realize that there are benefits to an AR pistol? I can carry a loaded AR15 pistol in my car under my CCW - I can't carry a loaded SBR - For years my state didn't allow SBR - The process through my state is cumbersome - You need a permission slip to cross state lines. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 11:57:19 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 4/26/2017 12:48:16 AM EDT
[#24]
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This is what got us here in the first place. People writing letters and the ATF saying "What are all these tards going on about?" - "I want my own letter! Duuuuurrrrr! Where's my helmet??! DUUUUUURRRRRRRRR!"Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just sent my letter. Not willing to go to jail for what someone says on the internet, but I still want to shoulder my damn sig brace. Screw your $200 tax stamps. Do you think I have 30 hours of free time to sift through endless layers of bullshit just to find out wether what I'm doing is a felony? No thank you. I'd rather hear it from the source. My life and my property is what's at stake here, not some slap on the wrist and parking ticket. We'll see how long it takes to get a response and I'll start a thread since these fucks asses over at SB can't post the shit themselves. People writing letters and the ATF saying "What are all these tards going on about?" - "I want my own letter! Duuuuurrrrr! Where's my helmet??! DUUUUUURRRRRRRRR!"{interestingly inappropriate rant edited} Meanwhile, I be chilling the fuck out with my ATF letter, banging my hot wife, and might even get a dog... you know, that thing of yours that will have gotten shot. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 5:32:30 AM EDT
[#25]
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@pathfinder74 Hi there, would you care to expand on the "warrants the need" comment? Quote HistoryQuoted:
@pathfinder74 Hi there, would you care to expand on the "warrants the need" comment? So, if the ATF is going to try to keep people from using it, go about it by way of what it was designed for. Unless you're strapping this thing onto your arm as it was designed, you can't use it. I know it sounds stupid... which was pretty much my point. The entirety of the ATF/government deciding which parts you can put on a gun and how they can be used in combination with one another is what boggles me. Quoted:
You realize that there are benefits to an AR pistol? I can carry a loaded AR15 pistol in my car under my CCW - I can't carry a loaded SBR - For years my state didn't allow SBR - The process through my state is cumbersome - You need a permission slip to cross state lines. The NFA is retarded, but states that go beyond federal infringement and tack on their own ways to infringe are the worst of all. But hey, I'm glad there are ways to skirt the laws by calling a firearm clearly designed as a rifle a pistol and the moronical government allowing it. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 5:46:45 AM EDT
[#26]
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I'm happy for everyone that likes the brace option, but the fact that this is allowed is proof that SBR's need to be removed from the NFA. It's a silly archaic law that needs to be changed. I, personally, think that this is them saying, without overtly blurting, that they too think the law is fucking stupid. Problem is that they can't say they aren't going to enforce the law, nor are they going to say that the law is stupid. It's their job and they're going to do it. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 5:48:55 AM EDT
[#27]
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None of that made any sense. Look, you don't have to like the reasons I gave, but it still doesn't mean that it is bullshit. Now that noisy long winded nonsense and no signal you just made trying to win the argument, that was bullshit all on it's own. And FYI: that first one costs more than the stamp and only has three positions and doesn't give a good cheek weld. The second offers the same cheek weld which made me not like OEM stocks, and a meh LOP. The pictures did not debunk anything at all, so I don't know why you're muddying the waters with BS opinions that you disguised as facts. And the KAK is flimsy made, has no cheak weld, is very uncomfortable, and all around sucks. So in reality, the ONLY reason buying that stamp is for function alone. And by the way, the minute you filled out that 4473, was enough to invite da man!!!!! in your life. Christ, this isn't hard. Just say you don't want to pay da man!!!!!!! instead of BS'ing this any further. Have your SBR loaded in your car. Oh wait, you can't. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 6:03:12 AM EDT
[#28]
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When gays got the right to marry, you didn't see the homosexuals going 'Well umm, I'd like you know, for more clarification.' or 'I dunno guys, maybe it'll get reversed'. Gun owners are literally more timid than homosexuals  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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FIFY! Some make women look stable... I know a few exceptions... Gun owners are literally more timid than homosexuals 
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Posted: 4/26/2017 6:15:56 AM EDT
[#29]
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Just wondering out loud but how would the guys who bought $15k machine guns feel if they became unregulated again  I'd throw a BIG fucking party, and then RUN out and buy an uzi, m16, p90, 93R, mp7, hk23, and a Glock 18. ETA, almost forgot, RPK or RPD also. Machineguns are fun, whether they're cheap or expensive, and all making them cheap again would do is make it easier for me to buy more of them. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 6:20:25 AM EDT
[#30]
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Have your SBR loaded in your car. Oh wait, you can't. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 6:59:56 AM EDT
[#31]
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That is fucking awesome. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have two questions. (1) Is the short (Sully?) stock now no longer a stock? After all, if something like the shockwave can be shouldered, and now be considered a stock - how the can Sully stock of equal length be considered a stock? It seems to me - from reading the ATF opinion - that mounting braces further out on the buffer tube culd still technically be problematic. Of course, given all of this confusion, nobody will probably care about any of their opinions on this again, but it is funny to me now that there can be non-stock braces that are now longer than actual stocks.
(2) Who is going to be first to mount a shockwave (or whatever) to a Glock? And which genius will write a letter about that? 
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Posted: 4/26/2017 7:30:40 AM EDT
[#32]
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... you can here |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 7:34:47 AM EDT
[#33]
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You realize that there are benefits to an AR pistol? I can carry a loaded AR15 pistol in my car under my CCW - I can't carry a loaded SBR - For years my state didn't allow SBR - The process through my state is cumbersome - You need a permission slip to cross state lines. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 8:17:23 AM EDT
[#34]
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Cross state lines with your SBR. Have your SBR loaded in your car. Oh wait, you can't.
Our definition of "firearm" for LTC purposes is a barrel under 16". So you can't have a loaded "rifle" but you can have a loaded pistol or SBR. ETA: just a humble brag. I agree with the reasons to have at least one gun set up this way with a brace. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 8:42:19 AM EDT
[#35]
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Ever think that the BATFE might agree with you? I, personally, think that this is them saying, without overtly blurting, that they too think the law is fucking stupid. Problem is that they can't say they aren't going to enforce the law, nor are they going to say that the law is stupid. It's their job and they're going to do it. I know multiple people within the ranks of BATFE ranging from SRT door kickers to admin guys (all upstanding 2A supporters by the way) and the general consensus is that it's a largely irrelevant law and they don't really care who shoulders what. But if people keep asking, prodding, drawing attention, they're going to have to publicly 'clarify' their stance and I can assure you it won't be in a way that technically contradicts federal law. It's like when my son asks if he can play a little Halo on the Xbox. Shhhh yeah maybe after mom's gone, I tell him. But then he's gotta 'whisper' in this totally non-discreet way "so we can play Halo when she's gone right??" And guess what, the answer becomes no. Just go enjoy your non SBR SBRs and shut the hell up folks |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:06:58 AM EDT
[#36]
After seeing everything come out by the other companies yesterday, I'm glad that I was wrong on some parts of how i interpreted it.
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:21:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... you can here Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Have your SBR loaded in your car. Oh wait, you can't. SIG MPX SBR'ed is good to go. Kriss SBR G2G, Scorpion EVO etc, all G2G. Mk18 CBQR with a Colt N1 stock is good to go too but if you toss an LMT SOPMOD on it, it's just over 26" and I would be considered a rifle, not a pistol even if you also have an N1 for it and it's registered as a pistol. The few people I know who own Mk18's keep a COLT N1 Car stock just for the purposes of transporting them as a concealed SBR pistol. This is a Michigan thing btw. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:29:07 AM EDT
[#38]
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Spot on!! 5/16x18!! Woo!!! Now to figure out which "C" dimension projection fits http://catalog.te-co.com/category/hand-retractable-plungers-with-non-locking-handle?plpver=1003&pcat=spring-plungers |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:33:02 AM EDT
[#39]
I still have my KAK Shockwave from when my AR pistol converted to SBR.
Sounds like time to build another pistol... |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:42:18 AM EDT
[#40]
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Was this figured out yet? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Spot on!! 5/16x18!! Woo!!! Now to figure out which "C" dimension projection fits http://catalog.te-co.com/category/hand-retractable-plungers-with-non-locking-handle?plpver=1003&pcat=spring-plungers 
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:50:40 AM EDT
[#41]
Why can't we just say Thank you to the atf, no we have to argue. We have the sbr owners all up in arms because others have away around the nfa, then we have the well I would say idiots but that might be a coc violation so I won't use the word idiot, we have the guys saying it should only be for people with proven disabilities.
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Posted: 4/26/2017 9:54:21 AM EDT
[#42]
And we can't forget the letter writers which is probably the same group I mentioned. I'm sure the guy pushing the handicap side has his letter all written..
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:01:54 AM EDT
[#43]
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(2) Who is going to be first to mount a shockwave (or whatever) to a Glock? And which genius will write a letter about that? 
Eta: And I was already beat a page ago |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:03:25 AM EDT
[#44]
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So where's the letter? Are you willing to bet your freedom on some companies retelling of a phone call they had with a nameless ATF agent? 
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:23:22 AM EDT
[#45]
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Already been done. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/268039/GlockBrace-2--34968-1477942804-1280-1280-195652.jpg Eta: And I was already beat a page ago |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:27:34 AM EDT
[#46]
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IMO this is not a reversal, this is what the original opinion stated. A shoulder stock has a quantifiable legal definition. They said a brace can not be used as a shoulder stock under that quantifiable definition.. A sig brace is a sig brace and a shoulder stock is a shoulder stock. You can use a table leg for a shoulder stock, if that is its only quantifiable use while attacked to a pistol, where as a Sig brace has other legally accepted legal uses that makes placing it against you shoulder legal. But you could attach a brace to something, and if it can not be used as legally defined, the brace would be a shoulder stock, and its use illegal without first paying the NFA taxes. A certain professor threatened to ban me for stating the obvious on this. I forgive him though, English isn't his native tongue, and He may have had a high fever from bird flu. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:35:19 AM EDT
[#47]
this is a bullshit decision to make you all feel like they are giving you something. Who cares about shouldering sig braces?
Remove silencers from the NFA, then I will feel like we got something out of the NFA. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:37:04 AM EDT
[#48]
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this is a bullshit decision to make you all feel like they are giving you something. Who cares about shouldering sig braces? Remove silencers from the NFA, then I will feel like we got something out of the NFA. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:47:25 AM EDT
[#49]
I switched my pistol to an sbr because I was worried more about running into a local leo that wanted to be a hero. The stamp doesn't really save me from that 100% either, but I figured that a form from the atf with my name on it would go a long ways with all but the most hard headed. Cops aren't always gun people, or willing to listen to you explain that your ar thing isn't what it appears to be. I think that we are much more likely to run into a local cop than an atf agent.
How does that saying go? "You can beat the rap, but you've gotta take the ride"? I'd throw a party to burn all my stamps (not many compared to some) and not even ask for a refund or tax credit if we could have unfettered access to silencers and sbrs. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 10:55:06 AM EDT
[#50]
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No. I was hoping someone with more knowledge in the area would pick up the ball Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Spot on!! 5/16x18!! Woo!!! Now to figure out which "C" dimension projection fits http://catalog.te-co.com/category/hand-retractable-plungers-with-non-locking-handle?plpver=1003&pcat=spring-plungers Same here
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