Theology question, reconciling paradise (heaven) and not having loved ones there? - Page 4

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Theology question, reconciling paradise (heaven) and not having loved ones there? (Page 4 of 4)

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:39:32 PM EDT

[#1]

I hate being human. We're week, frail, and victims to our vices.

I have not particularly enjoyed my life, and the idea of being rewarded or punished by a fickle God that created this world appalls me.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:39:57 PM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:

Wrong....Read Randy Alcorn's book Heaven.

The Bible says a ton about heaven....just no one is paying attention.....as usual.

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I've read a little Alcorn. From the little I have read, Alcorn conflates the coming Kingdom of God (or the post-judgment world or whatever you want to call it) with heaven. When most people talk about "heaven," they're referring to what happens right after you die, not what happens after God's ultimate judgment is imposed when ever that time comes to pass. To me, it's a bit of a trick to talk about the post-judgment world (which the Bible does say a good bit about) as "heaven." It's a way of dodging the question.

For example, in the Matthew 25 quoted on page three, Jesus is talking about what happens upon the universal judgment. Not what happens to us as individual souls when we each die. In other words, that passage is not about "heaven," as most people use the word.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:41:47 PM EDT

[#3]

Remember what it was like before you were born?

No?

Well, that's what it'll be like when you're dead. So quit worrying about it and go have some fun. You only live once.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:44:50 PM EDT

[#4]

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Quoted:
Remember what it was like before you were born?

No?

Well, that's what it'll be like when you're dead. So quit worrying about it and go have some fun. You only live once.

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That wasn't my experience when I went into the tunnel of light.

I was still me, nothing changed, other than I realized I wasn't in my body anymore after a while.

It was very peaceful. Very, very peaceful.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:47:26 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:

That wasn't my experience when I went into the tunnel of light.

I was still me, nothing changed, other than I realized I wasn't in my body anymore after a while.

It was very peaceful. Very, very peaceful.

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Woah! You had an NDE?

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:47:36 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
If someone (or a group of people in this case) were going to just make up a story about a messiah or a god coming to walk the earth, the story of Jesus is pretty much the last thing they would make up.

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You stop believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny at some point in your life - the story of "Jesus" and "God" is literally no different. That includes the make believe "heaven and hell."

It's a fairy tale that helped primitive mankind explain life.

There's actually a semetary near where I grew up that is separate from the main cemetery - it was purpose designed for babies that died before they were baptised (they ended up in "limbo").

The sad and absolutely pathetic thing is that so many people still believe this bullshit.

If someone (or a group of people in this case) were going to just make up a story about a messiah or a god coming to walk the earth, the story of Jesus is pretty much the last thing they would make up.

You make that statement through the intellect and understanding of the world around you as a modern man, not one from the period of "Jesus."

A.W.D.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:53:49 PM EDT

[#7]

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Take a step back and actually look at that story. Does it make any sense at all?

It seems utterly pointless and absurd.

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I see it as God is keeping his word. He told Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree or you will surely die. He can't change that or he would have no credibility. Imho, there is a bigger picture and forces out there that we have no idea are there and it is the ultimate war between good and evil. He is showing the universe that Satan's plan sucks compared to his plan. It is playing out right here on this earth. We are lucky he found a work around to save us from the permanent death sentence without compromising his word.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:53:53 PM EDT

[#8]

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D&C 19

I have a hard time seeing a Heaven free from sorrow entirely.

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I know this will likely turn into a mess, but to those that believe I have an honest question. As a precursor, I am a non-believer, haven't been to church since I was a kid.

If heaven is supposed to be paradise, free of pain and sorrow, how can that be reconciled with the possibility of loved ones that have fallen off the path, or with non-believers not being allowed in?

It seems like if your family was excluded you would spend eternity full of sorrow, amplified more if they were suffering in hell.

D&C 19

I have a hard time seeing a Heaven free from sorrow entirely.

Lets try and keep everyone following the same guide book for the sake of this discussion. Injecting "updated rules" will only confuse people.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:55:40 PM EDT

[#9]

What if...

Jesus was just really fucking high, and people of the time were just really unintelligent?

What if...

The virgin Mary really "got it on" with the farmer in the next valley and made up the whole thing to protect herself?

A.W.D.

Posted: 4/25/2017 6:59:36 PM EDT

[#10]

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So let me ask you........has anyone ever shown you air?

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The effects, existence and constituent components of air are verifiable and observable.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:02:48 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
That wasn't my experience when I went into the tunnel of light.

I was still me, nothing changed, other than I realized I wasn't in my body anymore after a while.

It was very peaceful. Very, very peaceful.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Remember what it was like before you were born?

No?

Well, that's what it'll be like when you're dead. So quit worrying about it and go have some fun. You only live once.

That wasn't my experience when I went into the tunnel of light.

I was still me, nothing changed, other than I realized I wasn't in my body anymore after a while.

It was very peaceful. Very, very peaceful.

You should write a book and make some money off the gullible.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:04:45 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
What if...

Jesus was just really fucking high, and people of the time were just really unintelligent?

What if...

The virgin Mary really "got it on" with the farmer in the next valley and made up the whole thing to protect herself?

A.W.D.

View Quote

You must be reading a different book. The one we are talking about doesn't say that.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:05:42 PM EDT

[#13]

family is so much bigger than family when you have Jesus included. When I get to Heaven I look forward to seeing my dogs but truth is I will look forward to seeing other members pets just as much.

In the presence of our Lord there will be dirt bikes, fishing boats and no traffic - 1000 year reign on Earth - not a hard party to get invited to.

Hitler was a christian? Really? just because he went to church doesn't mean he accepted Christ.

you know how to identify christians, they do things that Jesus did (were loving and extended kindness) with no strings attached. don't allow the selfishness of man to come between you and God.

picture Earth except way better - Rhodesian threads with HD video!

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:12:38 PM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:
Lets try and keep everyone following the same guide book for the sake of this discussion. Injecting "updated rules" will only confuse people.

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Quoted:
I know this will likely turn into a mess, but to those that believe I have an honest question. As a precursor, I am a non-believer, haven't been to church since I was a kid.

If heaven is supposed to be paradise, free of pain and sorrow, how can that be reconciled with the possibility of loved ones that have fallen off the path, or with non-believers not being allowed in?

It seems like if your family was excluded you would spend eternity full of sorrow, amplified more if they were suffering in hell.

D&C 19

I have a hard time seeing a Heaven free from sorrow entirely.

Lets try and keep everyone following the same guide book for the sake of this discussion. Injecting "updated rules" will only confuse people.

Injecting recent revelation does the opposite.

Man has had so many years to tinker with God's revelation in the past, that you have thousands of different belief systems out there with a lot of confusion.

I'll go ahead and start referencing D&C and the Book of Mormon a lot more. Can't hurt, the way I see it.

If there was one thing I would tell anybody with my last breath, it would be to read the Book of Mormon, ponder it, study it, and pray about it.

I would say the same thing to family or stranger, really.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:13:50 PM EDT

[#15]

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You should write a book and make some money off the gullible.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Remember what it was like before you were born?

No?

Well, that's what it'll be like when you're dead. So quit worrying about it and go have some fun. You only live once.

That wasn't my experience when I went into the tunnel of light.

I was still me, nothing changed, other than I realized I wasn't in my body anymore after a while.

It was very peaceful. Very, very peaceful.

You should write a book and make some money off the gullible.

Wouldn't be much to write about that, unless going into a tunnel of light sells.

Now if I told about the drama around who tried to kill me, yeah, that would sell for sure.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:15:51 PM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:
Injecting recent revelation does the opposite.

Man has had so many years to tinker with God's revelation in the past, that you have thousands of different belief systems out there with a lot of confusion.

I'll go ahead and start referencing D&C and the Book of Mormon a lot more. Can't hurt they way I see it.

If there was one thing I would tell anybody with my last breath, it would be to read the Book of Mormon, ponder it, study it, and pray about it.

I would say the same thing to family or stranger, really.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I know this will likely turn into a mess, but to those that believe I have an honest question. As a precursor, I am a non-believer, haven't been to church since I was a kid.

If heaven is supposed to be paradise, free of pain and sorrow, how can that be reconciled with the possibility of loved ones that have fallen off the path, or with non-believers not being allowed in?

It seems like if your family was excluded you would spend eternity full of sorrow, amplified more if they were suffering in hell.

D&C 19

I have a hard time seeing a Heaven free from sorrow entirely.

Lets try and keep everyone following the same guide book for the sake of this discussion. Injecting "updated rules" will only confuse people.

Injecting recent revelation does the opposite.

Man has had so many years to tinker with God's revelation in the past, that you have thousands of different belief systems out there with a lot of confusion.

I'll go ahead and start referencing D&C and the Book of Mormon a lot more. Can't hurt they way I see it.

If there was one thing I would tell anybody with my last breath, it would be to read the Book of Mormon, ponder it, study it, and pray about it.

I would say the same thing to family or stranger, really.

In a discussion involving christianity, at least do people a favor and tell them "this is how the mormons see it" or something along those lines. Bear your testimony in full disclosure. It's the honest thing to do.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:18:56 PM EDT

[#17]

If Satan is god's adversary, why does he punish those that shun god? Or is it that the absence of god is punishment enough (roll eyes), meanwhile Lucifer and the damned are down there living it up having a good 'ol time. That is were all the strippers and porn stars go ain't it?

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:27:17 PM EDT

[#18]

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Quoted:... Hitler was a christian? Really? ...

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He thought he was. You know who else thought he was? The Pope. TWO popes, even. You should read the letters they wrote to each other.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:27:47 PM EDT

[#19]

To all the atheists and millennials who think all these things are a bunch of out-dated ideas written by old men, I was the poster boy for being a rebellious youth...

...except I never rebelled against the Gospel of Jesus Christ because I found it to be true after a ton of personal study and prayer.

When I asked God if He was really there, it changed my life permanently. It was literally like being born again, not something some preacher smacked me on the head in front of a congregation, but a very real, personal experience that seared my soul with eternal warmth.

If it was any different, I would tell you.

All I have to inherit in this life is ridicule, mocking, marginalization, and scorn for telling the truth of my experience, but I have to call a spade a spade.

I'm not sorry if that doesn't fit the simpleton view of life, where reading and reaching outside yourself for answers might be uncomfortable.

It was probably the most uncomfortable thing I ever did, filled with a lot of uncertainty, but the reward of knowing my Heavenly Father and His Son has no measure unless you've felt it too.

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:28:27 PM EDT

[#20]

Easy, Satan likes to hurt who God loves. He knows his time is short and the more people he can keep from going to heaven (a place he knows well) the more it hurts God. Remember, Satan wanted to be God. It says Satan is walking to and fro ON this earth. He and his billions of fallen angels are right here around us. Imho, all these strange things we attribute to aliens are actually Satan and the boys. Towards the end, all of you waiting for a "sign" will get some and will be fooled into thinking it's from JC and not Satan. If he wants to go to a strip club he goes to the ones you do......

Posted: 4/25/2017 7:43:39 PM EDT

[#21]

What amazes me is Arfcommers who get offended when Liberals want to remove all reference to God from the founding documents, the dollar bill, etc.; and then trash God when a thread like this comes along.

Posted: 4/25/2017 8:09:20 PM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:

He thought he was. You know who else thought he was? The Pope. TWO popes, even. You should read the letters they wrote to each other.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/H8_zpsd9ankal4.jpg

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i've logged thousands of hours on hitler and have never seen him kneeled before a cross in nazi uniform, seen him dressed as an alter boy in the church where he got the swaztika from but never kneeling before christ as an adult. wanting all the religous artifacts for power isn't the same as turning all power over to christ.

the pope would have offered up mussolinis asshole if it would keep the nazis out of vatican city. thats politics at play there not divine declaration.

Posted: 4/25/2017 8:11:18 PM EDT

[#23]

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You're not going to get the answer here.

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Not here on this site or "here" as in this plane of existence?

Posted: 4/25/2017 8:23:21 PM EDT

[#24]

context matters. your priorities and values are based on your culture and your upbringing. if you were brought up elsewhere, your view of loved ones would change accordingly. similarly, where you are in life also changes. you probably didn't care about a mortgage when you were in college or high school. for example, in some cultures, daughters are not loved as much as sons.

similarly, the next life will be a different context. you won't understand your priorities or the value of your current 'loved ones'. they are your most important asset right here and right now, but to think they always will be is not farsighted.

even now, who are your loved ones? if they changed personalities, would you still love them? if they became murderers, rapists, anarchists, potatoes, liars? at some point, your definition of who they are to you does not really encompass who they really are. you love your understanding of them, but not necessarily who they really are. most religions state that the earthly state is just the current patch that god is currently on. in the next patch, god fixes sorrow, pain, torment. maybe the new patch there won't need to be a need for 'loved ones'. everyone will treat others with the utmost respect, they will be happy in any and every context.

Posted: 4/25/2017 8:24:31 PM EDT

[#25]

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And this is kind of like that computer simulation thread from a few weeks ago.

If you know that they were only copies, or figments of your imagination, wouldn't that make it worse knowing the real ones were in turmoil or limbo?

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If we can't tell it is a sim now then we wont know after. Or maybe we were programmed to always believe in some sort of creator as part of the sim.

Posted: 4/25/2017 9:14:46 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
To all the atheists and millennials who think all these things are a bunch of out-dated ideas written by old men, I was the poster boy for being a rebellious youth...

...except I never rebelled against the Gospel of Jesus Christ because I found it to be true after a ton of personal study and prayer.

When I asked God if He was really there, it changed my life permanently. It was literally like being born again, not something some preacher smacked me on the head in front of a congregation, but a very real, personal experience that seared my soul with eternal warmth.

If it was any different, I would tell you.

All I have to inherit in this life is ridicule, mocking, marginalization, and scorn for telling the truth of my experience, but I have to call a spade a spade.

I'm not sorry if that doesn't fit the simpleton view of life, where reading and reaching outside yourself for answers might be uncomfortable.

It was probably the most uncomfortable thing I ever did, filled with a lot of uncertainty, but the reward of knowing my Heavenly Father and His Son has no measure unless you've felt it too.

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There is truth in this man's statement.

Posted: 4/25/2017 10:09:03 PM EDT

[#27]

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He thought he was. You know who else thought he was? The Pope. TWO popes, even. You should read the letters they wrote to each other.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/H8_zpsd9ankal4.jpg

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And he promised Chamberlain peace in our time!
And he promised Stalin he would not attack Russia!
And he told the Popes whatever they wanted to hear to get them off his back!

Gee, Hitler never lied about anything!

Posted: 4/26/2017 9:13:01 AM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:

I've read a little Alcorn. From the little I have read, Alcorn conflates the coming Kingdom of God (or the post-judgment world or whatever you want to call it) with heaven. When most people talk about "heaven," they're referring to what happens right after you die, not what happens after God's ultimate judgment is imposed when ever that time comes to pass. To me, it's a bit of a trick to talk about the post-judgment world (which the Bible does say a good bit about) as "heaven." It's a way of dodging the question.

For example, in the Matthew 25 quoted on page three, Jesus is talking about what happens upon the universal judgment. Not what happens to us as individual souls when we each die. In other words, that passage is not about "heaven," as most people use the word.

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I'm not sure "conflates" is the right word with regards to what Randy Alcorn does....the Bible itself seems to do that however and it's confusing to most people. I know it was to me for years. I'm not sure I would consider it a 'trick" either. Randy unties or untangles that knot and makes a good argument for the "two" heavens- what he calls the Present Heaven (what happens right after death-what Jesus referred to has "Paradise") and the eternal home of believers The New Heaven and the New Earth.
As I read scripture I am always aware of the "eternity"or eternal nature of God and the space time continuum. Jesus often spoke of events as they happened...or would happen as if He were present....which of course He was. "See these stones....not one will be left upon another" 5000 years ago is the exact same moment to an eternal God as right now and I often use our concept of "time" to help others understand the Trinity.
At any rate...I can't wait to get there. Can't wait....

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Theology question, reconciling paradise (heaven) and not having loved ones there? (Page 4 of 4)

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