CNC Machine guys - need some advice **Updated in OP selected a machine thanks for your advice!** - Page 3

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CNC Machine guys - need some advice **Updated in OP selected a machine thanks for your advice!** (Page 3 of 4)

Posted: 3/16/2017 11:29:37 PM EDT

[#1]

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Right. I've been crying since I bought an Okuma and a DMG/Mori. Fuck. Just fuck.

DMG/Mori CTX 800 Beta sub spindle live tool. About $425k out the door. Arrives, installed, chiller is DOA. 4 more weeks go by. Ellison ordered the wrong jaws for our chucks, not DMG's problem. Finally the machine is turned over to us. A week later it goes down. Over the next 6 months the machine runs maybe 2, interspersed with repeated technical issues stemming from a shit board in the controller that the Fatherland absolutely refuses to allow the Mori tech to change out without trying to flash the native code in the plc 24 fucking times, each one taking 72 hours before a message is sent to Germany, they wake up, change some code, send it back, tech installs and it's ineffective, rinse, repeat. Finally, after a full year of fiddlefucking around, the machine is fixed, works 100%, and, yes, it is a pretty nice machine. Now. Then all the coolant seals in the turret go out, in a machine that's maybe be up 50% of it's short service life, and those parts aren't covered, sorry, warranty is expired. You're fucking kidding me. $5k for fucking o-rings. Fuck Mori and fuck DMG.

Oh, Okuma? People love their Okumas. We bought one, our first Okuma. We built a building just for this mother fucker. An MCR A5C. 100x200x70" travel. We're looking at Mitsubishi, Toshiba and Okuma, and time to installation is important for the contract job we have. Morris says, we've got a machine on shore someone ordered and bailed on. It's not exactly what you want, but we can convert it in less time than the other guys can build you one. The difference? We want ours in a pit so the table is floor level. They have a floor mount machine. Their machine has a U-head, we only want a right angle head with 1 degree positioning. They convince us this converted machine is basically changing the way the pendant is mounted and swapping some parts in the spindle.

We build the building. The trucks show up. Japan shows up. They build that thing over the next 2 months and release it to us for production. There are some teething problems, I expect that. This thing took 7 semi trucks to deliver. I get it. Morris is extremely responsive and helpful. Then, one day, 3 months later, the right angle head starts making noise. The bevel gears are smoked. There's no fucking lube getting to the head. The spindle is lubed by a mister. The mister was DOA and handn't worked since day one. We're down weeks during the course of this. Then the fun starts. Random crashes on head changes. Random loss of position on tool changes. Right angle head ribbon cable shorts out. Connectors between the head and spindle short out. On and on and on and fucking on. I have a stack of service reports from Morris 1" thick. Okuma at first sends us this bigwig or that bigwig, and promises to engineer a solution. Promises a new right angle head. Promise after empty fucking promise. We get a new head. That took 6 months to build in Japan. They promise to rebuild our old head and put it on the shelf. The new head goes down. The old one they put on the shelf isn't available. I'm fucking down again. They won't sell me the original head so I can put it on my own shelf. What a fucking cluster fuck. Morris has bent over backwards doing what they can to help us. It's a great machine when it's running. Okuma has basically ignored any responsibility in how this piece of shit was installed incorrectly, and with giving us a solution to prevent randomly going down with a head change. That's what $1.2 million gets you from fucking Okuma.

While the 7 or 8 HAAS machines on my floor just tick away without a care in the world. They're just fucking boring in how well they run. When something does break, I have it back in 12 to 24 hours. When they're 7-8 years old and I'm ready for a new one, I get 35% of their original cost on trade in.

I fucking wish HAAS made more machines in the size and shape I need. The Toyoda HMCs we started buying when HAAS quit making 50 taper HMCs are spectacular. I wish Toyoda made a bridge/column mill that wasn't from Taiwan. But here I am. Fuck Okuma. Fuck DMG-Mori. You can have them.

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There seems to be some fuckery going on with Mori since they got into bed with DMG.

Posted: 3/16/2017 11:33:38 PM EDT

[#2]

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I say yes but that's having 20 operators and a few machinists. Crashes are inevitable for us. Toyoda was talking up spindle life, I asked how they handle having a 12'' Kaiser twin insert boring head rapided into the work. Guy hesitated only for a heartbeat and went into explaining how awesome their replaceable taper was, haha.

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Crashes are inevitable period. Can't do x setups a week for years and not fuck up once in a while. I've developed and teach my button mashers habits to keep the wrecks less than fatal. Doesn't always work...fucking people, we're always the weakest link.

Posted: 3/16/2017 11:42:50 PM EDT

[#3]

For the most part I am going to be running the machine. I have bad luck, I may crash it the day it gets installed, who knows lol.. I crashed the shit out of my Fadal ahahah but it just kept going. I have a bin of shame full of broken carbide.

I can't believe where I am at today vs where I was last week. I was ready to pull the trigger on an Okuma. If I am spending 90gs on a machine, I figured fuck it I can spend a little more and get what I want... BUT after going through and researching I think I just "want" the Okuma, and really only "need" a Haas for what I am doing. I can't believe I am considering paying just South of 90k for a Haas!! But it really hit me - the Fanuc control is dildos. The Haas control is perfect for me. The price on repair parts for other machines are extremely expensive and can put me right back into the same spot I am in. The price for a Haas spindle is basically borderline consumable. Swap it and go. There's a lot to be said for that really...

Posted: 3/16/2017 11:47:39 PM EDT

[#4]

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There seems to be some fuckery going on with Mori since they got into bed with DMG.

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I would agree. No more Axis machines for me

Posted: 3/16/2017 11:49:40 PM EDT

[#5]

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For the most part I am going to be running the machine. I have bad luck, I may crash it the day it gets installed, who knows lol.. I crashed the shit out of my Fadal ahahah but it just kept going. I have a bin of shame full of broken carbide.

I can't believe where I am at today vs where I was last week. I was ready to pull the trigger on an Okuma. If I am spending 90gs on a machine, I figured fuck it I can spend a little more and get what I want... BUT after going through and researching I think I just "want" the Okuma, and really only "need" a Haas for what I am doing. I can't believe I am considering paying just South of 90k for a Haas!! But it really hit me - the Fanuc control is dildos. The Haas control is perfect for me. The price on repair parts for other machines are extremely expensive and can put me right back into the same spot I am in. The price for a Haas spindle is basically borderline consumable. Swap it and go. There's a lot to be said for that really...

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I like the HAAS control. Plus they don't wait 20 years to make things like USB ports standard. Quick code is handy too.

Posted: 3/17/2017 12:19:54 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

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For the most part I am going to be running the machine. I have bad luck, I may crash it the day it gets installed, who knows lol.. I crashed the shit out of my Fadal ahahah but it just kept going. I have a bin of shame full of broken carbide.

I can't believe where I am at today vs where I was last week. I was ready to pull the trigger on an Okuma. If I am spending 90gs on a machine, I figured fuck it I can spend a little more and get what I want... BUT after going through and researching I think I just "want" the Okuma, and really only "need" a Haas for what I am doing. I can't believe I am considering paying just South of 90k for a Haas!! But it really hit me - the Fanuc control is dildos. The Haas control is perfect for me. The price on repair parts for other machines are extremely expensive and can put me right back into the same spot I am in. The price for a Haas spindle is basically borderline consumable. Swap it and go. There's a lot to be said for that really...

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I tend to have machines for a long time. I look at it like "holy balls I'm going to spend 100k or more...i need to get the most machine for the $" I also fear buyers remorse...cant stand signing that check if I'm not happy with the machine. See kurakis feelings on Okuma...its a bitter pill, and it gets more bitter the longer you live with a machine that disappoints you.

I spent twice the cost of a Haas spindle on a silly yellow box that says Fanuc on it for one of my lathes two weeks ago, that was a reman amp, and I did the install. A brand new amp costs more than a doosan spindle. The machine has 4 other nearly identical amps that could go whenever. That machine has been paid for for 5 years, and it paid for the Fanuc box already...a good machine is a no brainer investment if it's kept busy. My tricked out Okuma costs $15 an hour, 40 hrs a week...less than the guy that stands in front of it.

The big numbers are scary, but take a deep breath, go kick some tires and make a good choice.

Posted: 3/17/2017 12:36:03 AM EDT

[#7]

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I tend to have machines for a long time. I look at it like "holy balls I'm going to spend 100k or more...i need to get the most machine for the $" I also fear buyers remorse...cant stand signing that check if I'm not happy with the machine. See kurakis feelings on Okuma...its a bitter pill, and it gets more bitter the longer you live with a machine that disappoints you.

I spent twice the cost of a Haas spindle on a silly yellow box that says Fanuc on it for one of my lathes two weeks ago, that was a reman amp, and I did the install. A brand new amp costs more than a doosan spindle. The machine has 4 other nearly identical amps that could go whenever. That machine has been paid for for 5 years, and it paid for the Fanuc box already...a good machine is a no brainer investment if it's kept busy. My tricked out Okuma costs $15 an hour, 40 hrs a week...less than the guy that stands in front of it.

The big numbers are scary, but take a deep breath, go kick some tires and make a good choice.

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One positive I have in the Fanuc world is being a robot guy, my company stocks hundreds and hundreds of Fanuc robot parts - motors, amps, power supplies, etc.. Many cross reference over to CNC. I've repaired a power supply, amplifier IPM, and swapped out encoders with my Kiti machine... However - the new Fanuc stuff is not the same as what I have on the shelf since the new vintage stuff has changed over the years, so that advantage is gone for the most part. We can still rebuild the motors (bearings, brakes, and re-calibrate the encoder back onto the shaft) - but the parts are different. I'd say I could still most likely repair an amplifier in house if it's just an IPM or other off-the-shelf piece inside that fails....

But that still doesn't sell me 100% on the Fanuc control or the more expensive parts such as spindle. I am paranoid about spindles right now lol.

Posted: 3/17/2017 3:02:13 AM EDT

[#8]

Couple years ago my Mori NH4000 puked the fanuc main, out of the blue! Cost us 20k by the time the machine was back up and running. My Okuma mx40 loves to barf axis drives every so often, also very expensive. It's actually down at the moment because the vacII went. Thats another spendy fix. And yes the power has been tested and is good. My pair of nh5000's are great machines when they are running, but cost a fortune to fix when something breaks. Getting ready to replace linear Z guides in one of them, peppering the angus for that. Also had a debacle getting a b axis scale cable from japan on one of the 5000s, machine was down months!

This is the kind of stuff that leans me towards the Haas machines. At least when it comes to general capability milling machines. My vf8/50, 2 vf6ss, vf5ss, umc750, and even the GR712 router run every single day. They do also from time to time go down and need parts and repair, but the cost to fix them when they do break is so much less and down time is minimal. I also really like the control and probing, very easy and intuitive for people to use it well. They are plenty accurate for most. I have all but eliminated the use of boring bars by using helical interpolation endmill boring, works great! The vf5, vf6's, and umc750 all do simultaneous 4 and 5 axis very well. Both vf6's have steel 48" 4th axis trunnion tables run with 210 rotary, do big parts no problem.

Almost 3 years ago we did buy a Hwacheon Cutex 240B SMC lathe that I absolutely love, would buy more of those!

Posted: 3/17/2017 8:37:42 AM EDT

[#9]

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One positive I have in the Fanuc world is being a robot guy, my company stocks hundreds and hundreds of Fanuc robot parts - motors, amps, power supplies, etc.. Many cross reference over to CNC. I've repaired a power supply, amplifier IPM, and swapped out encoders with my Kiti machine... However - the new Fanuc stuff is not the same as what I have on the shelf since the new vintage stuff has changed over the years, so that advantage is gone for the most part. We can still rebuild the motors (bearings, brakes, and re-calibrate the encoder back onto the shaft) - but the parts are different. I'd say I could still most likely repair an amplifier in house if it's just an IPM or other off-the-shelf piece inside that fails....

But that still doesn't sell me 100% on the Fanuc control or the more expensive parts such as spindle. I am paranoid about spindles right now lol.

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Geez, if I was that handy with fanuc control electronics, I'd have a Fanuc mill and live with the interface. I'm just a part swapper when it comes to that stuff. Don't have time to fuck with them anyway. UPS red that shit from Tennessee or where ever and start making chips the next day.

I don't blame you for being paranoid about spindles right now, but it's really not that common to kill them. If you're banging them into things all the time maybe...i think your kiti has a plugged lube line or something. To go from happy and quiet to glowing junk is pretty drastic. Normally it's a slower process.

Posted: 3/17/2017 2:35:33 PM EDT

[#10]

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One positive I have in the Fanuc world is being a robot guy, my company stocks hundreds and hundreds of Fanuc robot parts - motors, amps, power supplies, etc.. Many cross reference over to CNC. I've repaired a power supply, amplifier IPM, and swapped out encoders with my Kiti machine... However - the new Fanuc stuff is not the same as what I have on the shelf since the new vintage stuff has changed over the years, so that advantage is gone for the most part. We can still rebuild the motors (bearings, brakes, and re-calibrate the encoder back onto the shaft) - but the parts are different. I'd say I could still most likely repair an amplifier in house if it's just an IPM or other off-the-shelf piece inside that fails....

But that still doesn't sell me 100% on the Fanuc control or the more expensive parts such as spindle. I am paranoid about spindles right now lol.

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Your episode with one spindle shouldn't be such a concern in my opinion. That machine probably had issues when you bought it or developed a lubrication problem that you didn't catch. I have yet to lose a spindle on any of my equipment aside from an Okamoto grinder. I'm solid in the Fanuc camp, they have proven to be solid controls and the drives just last and last, of course these are the higher end drives on OKK, Okuma Howa, and Mori Seiki machines. My philosophy has always been to buy the absolute best equipment I could afford and it has rewarded me with very little downtime. I did buy a Fadal mill once and got my money's worth out of it but the last few years I owned it that machine was relegated to non-critical work since it couldn't hold accuracy anymore. If most of your work is simple like the couple of examples you posted the EZ guide control on the Doosan machine is their branded version of Fanuc's Manual guide. It is not as intuitive as the Okuma or Haas control but it is very capable. Most of my programming is done off-line in Mastercam so the machine control is basically just a host anyway.

As an aside, a few years ago at IMTS in Chicago, Haas was a big sponsor and had their name all over town. In my hotel they had a Haas channel on the TV showing their manufacturing facility. Oddly enough most of the machines being used in the Haas plant to make parts for their machines were Mori Seiki, Makino, and Okuma. Guess they couldn't afford the downtime associated with their own product.

Posted: 3/17/2017 3:07:11 PM EDT

[#11]

Friend of a friend works for Okuma USA in charlotte...got talking machines, he said Haas was one of their best customers.

To be fair Hardinge was the same way, they didn't make big enough machines to mill the castings.

Posted: 3/17/2017 3:20:56 PM EDT

[#12]

HAAS had more of their own machines on their floor when they still made 50 taper HMCs.

Posted: 3/17/2017 6:50:02 PM EDT

[#13]

Ok - good progress today, getting somewhere.

I went to a machine shop and looked at a Doosan. Fucking gorgeous machine. Talked to the owner of the company and the operator. They love it for what they do. They have 2x sitting right next to each other and would buy them again and again. Ironically there were a few Haas in there - VF2, VF3, VF4, and a VF5... they were running, and making parts. Owner said they do what they need them to do... but when you hear them run and get worked - they are loud and sound like they're going to explode... It left an uneasy feeling with me.

Left that place and went down to Cranberry to visit the Haas outlet. They cut a chunk of steel for me. It cut nice. I looked over the machine, behind the covers, inside the doors. Man, I just don't think I can spend almost $90k on a Haas... I am sure they work, but yea, they are not built the same as others in the same price range. $60k - i'd buy 2x... But not almost $90. So Haas is out for me.

Left Haas and went to Morris down the street to see the Okuma M560V in person. Its a beast of a machine, but I told Morris where I need to be on price. We got close. It's still missing the tool setter probe, but has everything else... It's a VERY aggressive price. But - I am still not sure this is the way I want to go. 15k spindle makes me nervous... I am not sure what cost of ownership on this machine is going to be.

Happened to see a Hardinge V1000 sitting right next to it.. Heavy 15k machine, Mitsubishi control, tool and work probe, thru spindle, air thru spindle, chip conveyor... $83k.. FUCK this threw a big wrench in the mix lol... It's a taiwan machine however... but it's got great travel something like 41 x 22 x 24....

So I think it's between the Doosan DNM5700 and the Hardinge V1000...

Posted: 3/17/2017 7:03:23 PM EDT

[#14]

We have around 15 haas vertical mills where I work. I understand that they provide a good value from the owner perspective. From the perspective of some one that has to use them every day, I hate them and would look for something else. If you are looking at a horizontal, make sure to go look at one and try to do a set up in it. They took our horizontal guy to look at one and he said no way. In his opinion all of the safety stuff makes it nearly impossible to set up with any sort of proficiency.

ETA: our newer machines have also been fairly unreliable. The newest one is less than 6 month old and has had the software reloaded at least twice. The one that I run is known by name by the service techs. They have been out for a repair 6-8 times per year, every year, and it's 4 years old. It's on it's 2nd tool changer gear box, 4th mother board, 3rd screen, the z axis cable went bad in the middle of a cut and wrecked a $40,000 part that we were refurbishing. It leaks about a cup of transmission fluid every 2 months. I could go on and on.

Posted: 3/17/2017 7:24:39 PM EDT

[#15]

Depends on your tolerances and the material that you cut. If your tolerances are +/-.005 and you cut a lot of aluminum, then a Haas is tough to beat. A VF-3 with a 4th axis attachment is a good set up. A couple of Kurt vises and soft jaws and you can make about anything. My old shop where I worked for years is almost exclusively Haas We had 25 or 30 Haas of varying sizes and configurations. We also had a couple of Mazak verticals, 4 Chirons with pallets and a Haas Horizontal with a pallet changer. We also had a Haas with a 5th axis trunion. I'm not completely sold on that set-up. That being said, Haas has a great service support system and the controls are great. All the 20 plus lathes were Mazaks, various Integrexes, and turn-mill live tooling Mazaks.

Okuma also makes a damn fine and sturdy machine.

If you're doing parts with tolerances down in the .0001 range, Haas is not your best choice. Mitsui Seiki or Mazak makes a better machine for precision applications. The shop I'm with now and plan to retire with eventually, has mostly Mitsui Seiki and Mazaks. Both machine brands are very dependable and accurate.

Thank you Donald. MAGA.

Posted: 3/17/2017 8:06:31 PM EDT

[#16]

MBX5

You mentioned the Hardinge and being afraid of it since it was built in Taiwan. I am taking no sides in this but the Okuma you looked at is mfg in the Tatung factory in Taiwan.

Obviously Okuma didn't mention that and I think you should know.

Rebel13

Posted: 3/17/2017 8:59:22 PM EDT

[#17]

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MBX5

You mentioned the Hardinge and being afraid of it since it was built in Taiwan. I am taking no sides in this but the Okuma you looked at is mfg in the Tatung factory in Taiwan.

Obviously Okuma didn't mention that and I think you should know.

Rebel13

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Interesting... Sales guy told me straight to my face that it was made in Japan.... If that's the case the mofo lied... Very good to know!

Posted: 3/17/2017 9:02:17 PM EDT

[#18]

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Quoted:
MBX5

You mentioned the Hardinge and being afraid of it since it was built in Taiwan. I am taking no sides in this but the Okuma you looked at is mfg in the Tatung factory in Taiwan.

Obviously Okuma didn't mention that and I think you should know.

Rebel13

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The Genos lathes are made in Taiwan for sure but I've heard mixed messages about the 560. It is mechanically identical to the mb56. No scales, no optional spindles, no fine pitch screws. But the casting are the same, control is the same, spindle is one of the mb56 optional spindles. The sheet metal is the same, just painted differently. I'm not saying Okuma doesn't build the same machine in two different countries...but the data plate on mine says made in Japan. Either way it's a badass. Taiwan build isn't a bad thing.

The v1000 is a solid machine, I was this close to buying one but Morris and Okuma made me a deal I couldn't refuse. No experience with the mits control. Told you the Hardinge was worth a look. Morris likes Okuma so I think they short change the Hardinge stuff. The GX mills are the Haas level machine, but when Hardinge puts the conquest name on something they are always good stuff.

Did you hear the Okuma cut? That's the impressive part. Spindle is virtually silent and that beast eats vibration. The loudest is the chips hitting the windows.

Posted: 3/17/2017 9:09:27 PM EDT

[#19]

Yeah they were cutting a mold for someone actually... I think a hand soap bottle mold or something... shit load of ball mill work... it was glass. there were some tool selection issues in some spots but the machine performed fucking impressive. I was actually thinking - dude this is a lot more machine than you need...

I've never been one to buy the top end - in my selections the Okuma is the top end... The can reach my pricepoint with just about everything I want... I mean it's within reach for me... But why am I not jumping up and down about it? I keep considering the Doosan. It really impressed me too.

The Doosan will be roughly $15k less, has a 2 year warranty, tool allowance (yea fluff but cool)... includes freight and install...

Posted: 3/17/2017 9:18:31 PM EDT

[#20]

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Yeah they were cutting a mold for someone actually... I think a hand soap bottle mold or something... shit load of ball mill work... it was glass. there were some tool selection issues in some spots but the machine performed fucking impressive. I was actually thinking - dude this is a lot more machine than you need...

I've never been one to buy the top end - in my selections the Okuma is the top end... The can reach my pricepoint with just about everything I want... I mean it's within reach for me... But why am I not jumping up and down about it? I keep considering the Doosan. It really impressed me too.

The Doosan will be roughly $15k less, has a 2 year warranty, tool allowance (yea fluff but cool)... includes freight and install...

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I've never had too much machine....ever, but you are now in territory where you really can't go wrong. All 3 are solid machines, I'd sleep well owning any of them. I still feel the Okuma is the next level machine but the Hardinge and Doosan are good machines. Make the best deal you can.

Posted: 3/17/2017 10:41:07 PM EDT

[#21]

I used to run a Kit HX400 horizontal. Fanuc 16iM control, 50 tool ATC, 13K spindle. 2, 4 sided tombstones in the pallet changer. All things considered it was a good machine. I shopped for competitive units and all took up way to much floor space - even the Haas which couldn't seem to decide on what style ATC they should use.

I want to find a Kit MyCenter Zero Sparkchanger for my shop for small light work.

Between 2007-2009 the 2 Haas VF3-E at the company went through 5 spindles and 1 Y axis servo drive. The 2 turning centers went through 3 spindle drives. There were 9 Mazaks in house, only service call for them was to replace a damaged serial port. BTW the machines only did Aluminum.

Okuma has come up alot in there pricing. They are good machines and I have run several, but they do have there own unique flavor of G-code that will take getting used to.

One brand I keep an eye on is Hwacheon, There lathes were outstanding. I have run the CNC lathes, not tried any of there mills. Also they still make the original Mori-Seiki manual engine lathe under license. I would love one of those.

I am also looking into Fusion360.

Posted: 3/17/2017 10:55:55 PM EDT

[#22]

We've got a Hwacheon lathe in our tool room. Great machine.

Posted: 3/17/2017 11:19:10 PM EDT

[#23]

I have a Hwacheon Hi-Eco 21 unit I picked up cheap a/f... I am currently replacing the z-axis rails and linear bearings - someone crashed the sub spindle into the spindle during a transfer and ripped them out.. They're just 15mm THK rails, cheap fix. Fanuc 18-T control. Live tooling too, with c-axis indexing.

I paid around $10k for it... Hopefully have it up and rolling in a month... don't really have much demand but there are things I could make on it.

Posted: 3/18/2017 1:58:46 PM EDT

[#24]

Interestingly enough the Kitamura reseller in the area dropped their price quite a lot... still not enough however... I am not sure there is much value in that machine over what I am looking at right now, and it weighs about what a Haas does...

So I battle every hour between the Doosan and Okuma. That's where I'm at. Okuma guys have come back and offered a 2nd year parts warranty for the price. Their price doesn't include the Renishaw OTS tool probe hardware however - so I have asked them to price that as well. It's going to be a bit over my budget, but I am still getting a stupid good deal on that machine.

Right now I am 60/40 on the Okuma. It's taking a bit to feel comfortable with that because I know I can get the Doosan Fanuc in here and start running...even though I hate the control...

Posted: 3/18/2017 2:47:20 PM EDT

[#25]

Where you're at, knowing my loathing for Okuma right now because of my experience, I will say that Morris has been excellent for the support they provide. There are a few distributors out there I want nothing to do with, Ellison being one, but Morris has done everything they could to help us. It's Okuma, and likely Okuma Japan not USA, that's giving us our grief.

And on the machine you're looking at, 99% of your needs will be serviced by Morris. I personally dislike Okuma's control and odd language, and would be more comfortable with a Fanuc, but that isn't to say I like Fanuc controls. Just that I'm more comfortable with them. I guess one good thing about a lack of innovation is that you can go from a 15i to a windows based 310i without much hassle

Posted: 3/18/2017 9:18:29 PM EDT

[#26]

I've been talking to a lot of folks happy with the Genos... and folks that are very happy with the Doosan as well...

As I get down to it, the DNM5700 Doosan is going to be roughly $15-20k less depending on what they come back with on pricing for the additional OTS hardware/software and Okuma also doesn't include freight, the Doosan will include a $3k (at list price) tooling allowance, and will be 2 years parts and labor warranty. It will do everything I need. I know the control. I don't like it but I know it. Setup is going to be a lot less cumbersome with the probe system, so navigating through stupid menus isn't going to be as bad.

So I really have to decide - do I get what I need, or spend more $ on what I want.. when laying out this kinda ching, do I let the line between need and want blur? Do I take the money savings by going with the Doosan and buy some nicer work holding and tooling?

Posted: 3/19/2017 11:41:29 AM EDT

[#27]

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I've been talking to a lot of folks happy with the Genos... and folks that are very happy with the Doosan as well...

As I get down to it, the DNM5700 Doosan is going to be roughly $15-20k less depending on what they come back with on pricing for the additional OTS hardware/software and Okuma also doesn't include freight, the Doosan will include a $3k (at list price) tooling allowance, and will be 2 years parts and labor warranty. It will do everything I need. I know the control. I don't like it but I know it. Setup is going to be a lot less cumbersome with the probe system, so navigating through stupid menus isn't going to be as bad.

So I really have to decide - do I get what I need, or spend more $ on what I want.. when laying out this kinda ching, do I let the line between need and want blur? Do I take the money savings by going with the Doosan and buy some nicer work holding and tooling?

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Good thought process. Went through the same things. You need probing. You need good tooling, especially to take advantage of the big plus spindle. I agree Morris is good people, the 560 is one of the great machines from Okuma, I'd venture to guess they sell more of those than any other machine.

The 560 is a monster, it can hog well and lay down ridiculous finishes with very tight tolerances, the Doosan will hog steel and is a solid machine. Not the mold and tooling machine that the Okuma is. Objectively the Doosan is the best deal for your work. If they were the same price I'd go Okuma but $ matters, invest in good holders to take advantage of the new Doosan. ??

Posted: 3/19/2017 2:36:58 PM EDT

[#28]

Sounds like the Doosan is the best choice. Spend the savings on some hydraulic end mill chucks or a shrink fit system

Posted: 3/19/2017 3:32:47 PM EDT

[#29]

Yeah I am just about sold on the Doosan at this point. With the savings in price difference between the two, I will be looking at a few vises, some nice cutters, and need to spend a little on some thru spindle carbide drills for the work I do most.... I also like the Everede Nine9 stuff which I may have to look at. I've got a decent selection of Lyndex holders that came with the Kiti, and some some -meh- china collet holders, all are thru spindle so I just need to change to the Doosan style pull studs. I'll probably invest in some nice big plus tool holders for my face mills and larger end mills...
I should have roughly $13 to $15k to invest into a few necessary tools.
My Kurt vises work but they're the D688s and have really wide flanges for mounting which sucks when I need to put 3 side-by-side. I also end up using extra clamps on them to keep from moving.

I kind of like the GMT stuff - cheap, but I bet I'll get plenty of life out of them. I doubt I'll go out and buy $6k in Kurt vises.

Posted: 3/19/2017 3:38:51 PM EDT

[#30]

That job I was talking about drilling and tapping a million holes with the 4 spindle head, I bought four GMT double vises for that job. They're great.

Posted: 3/19/2017 4:08:32 PM EDT

[#31]

Take a look at Orange vice, really nice stuff. Good dude that makes them too, was involved with one of the other vice companies and then went out on his own.

I might take one more run at Morris, it's a magical time of year for Okuma on stuff that's in stock anyway. Tell them, last chance to move a machine before the end of March! You don't need to take delivery, just sign the documents.

If they don't match the price..it wasn't meant to be and enjoy your awesome 5700.

I've been pleased with my Lyndex taper plus holders, Mari tool is supposed to have good stuff, made in USA I believe and everyone raves about the price and service.

Take a look at Orange vice either way.

Posted: 3/19/2017 8:43:31 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Sounds like the Doosan is the best choice. Spend the savings on some hydraulic end mill chucks or a shrink fit system

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What do you like in hydraulics? I have a shunck tendo e compact. I bought for a specific job and it worked awesome. I've been thinking about a few more.

Posted: 3/19/2017 8:47:38 PM EDT

[#33]

Are hydraulics worth the $$? Honestly I've never used one.

Orange vises are definitely nice but very pricey. I've already got 2 Chick double vises though.

Posted: 3/19/2017 9:18:41 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
What do you like in hydraulics? I have a shunck tendo e compact. I bought for a specific job and it worked awesome. I've been thinking about a few more.

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Have only used the schunk, similar results. Tool life on that job nearly doubled compared to Weldon endmill holders.

Posted: 3/19/2017 9:20:57 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
Are hydraulics worth the $? Honestly I've never used one.

Orange vises are definitely nice but very pricey. I've already got 2 Chick double vises though.

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Higher feeds and speeds with less run-out. Longer tool life. If you're endmilling a lot, it's worth it.

Posted: 3/19/2017 9:26:56 PM EDT

[#36]

We replaced all our Kitamuras with Makino's did you get your Kitamuras used from a shop in Maryland

Posted: 3/19/2017 9:28:47 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:

Have only used the schunk, similar results. Tool life on that job nearly doubled compared to Weldon endmill holders.

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I was hard milling a large die component, too big for a wire, D2 62Rc nailed the dimension to within .0005 on a 18 inch bore. Really made a difference on that job. I was impressed with the run out and grip

Posted: 3/20/2017 12:42:10 AM EDT

[#38]

Okuma has come back including both probes and 2 year warranty. Machine is within my reach... We're talking not a lot more.

Dudes.. I think I'm going to buy something I want instead of something I need.

Posted: 3/20/2017 8:31:28 AM EDT

[#39]

Don't forget the cost of a new post for your CAM system, though I'm guessing that one is out there and inexpensive regardless of what you use.

Posted: 3/20/2017 9:33:40 AM EDT

[#40]

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Quoted:
Don't forget the cost of a new post for your CAM system, though I'm guessing that one is out there and inexpensive regardless of what you use.

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He's already got it.

Hsmworks has a great Okuma post for that mill already. Although I did find a bug a couple weeks ago. Didn't cancel G94 after a rigid peck tap cycle...or was it G95? Didn't switch back to IPM out of IPR...so 5 inches per rev at 1500 rpm was a wee bit too much for the next tool.

poopy pants time. The good news is that the mill will only feed up to 1200 Ipm or so...

Posted: 3/20/2017 9:37:18 AM EDT

[#41]

Haha that's a pucker moment for sure.

Posted: 3/20/2017 10:05:49 AM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
Okuma has come back including both probes and 2 year warranty. Machine is within my reach... We're talking not a lot more.

Dudes.. I think I'm going to buy something I want instead of something I need.

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Well, like we've said I don't think either is a bad choice. Don't be afraid to push on Morris, there is room to deal on those machines, this time of year. Don't get target fixation, if the money is truly close, go for it, but don't let the "want" overpower the good decision making.

Posted: 3/20/2017 11:11:03 AM EDT

[#43]

Yeah it's like a $6k difference. Too close to not do this. And when I add the data center to the Fanuc we're $4k difference. Morris is not making much on the machine.

Posted: 3/20/2017 1:01:10 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yeah it's like a $6k difference. Too close to not do this. And when I add the data center to the Fanuc we're $4k difference. Morris is not making much on the machine.

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I'm always amazed how much Morris can not make....

I think both Okuma and Morris will be OK. They fucked kuraki for a cold, hard, dry mil so....

. clowning...but yeah that sucks.

I was flat embarrassed at first when I was negotiating for my mill, the amount off of "list" was a huge number....like go buy a small Haas number. I started asking for more options, with less costs, and the answer was always yes. It's March madness. I was the last machine they sold in the region in that fiscal year, or so the story goes. I had a rep from Okuma in Charlotte walk into my little shop cold and basically do the the old "what will it take to put you in an Okuma today" routine.

Whatever, I got the machine I wanted for the price I could afford. I haven't regretted it a day since. Morris and Okuma have been good to me.

Posted: 3/20/2017 1:08:57 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

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A buddy of mine is using fusion. I've toyed with it but didn't like the assembly modeling. One of my employees has student version of inventor. I plugged in my license number for hsm and played around. I noticed that hsm is a lot more refined in Autodesk software than what it is in solidworks...even has probing. I guess us solidworks guys are getting boned since Autodesk owns them now

Eta looks like the free version of fusion doesn't have the 3d adaptive clearing.

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AutoDesk recently bought Delcam/PartMaker so we've been dealing with them lately. We're already a MasterCam shop in our Mil/lathel departments (I program Swiss Turns) but the looks of things PowerMill is pretty badass.

Post support is awesome and they have new pricing you might want to look into. No more $40k up front.

They've gone to a subscription model and it seems pretty reasonable. We were grandfathered in on our PartMaker but they showed us the new pricing (and let us play with PowerMill) and it seems like it should really benefit the smaller guys that don't have a huge checking account.

I watched a promotional video the other day where you could drag and drop solids into PowerMill and it basically did feature recognition and programmed itself. If you have a tool carousel with basic tooling you could really get by with barely having to do any programming yourself.

I was impressed.

Posted: 3/20/2017 1:17:40 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
VF3-SS with wireless probing (part and work), 12k spindle, side mount tool changer, programmable coolant nozzle, chip auger, thru spindle coolant, freight, 2 year parts and labor $85k. $3k more for the VF4-SS.

It might be worth seeing if I can get the 4SS for that price or somewhere in the middle.

It bums me out that their machines aren't as rock solid as a Doosan - the Doosan is priced right for me... but I FUCKING HATE FANUC CONTROLS lol.... I can't stand their interface... but, I know it enough to work with it... The Haas control is so much nicer in my mind... Okuma as well.

Do I need an Okuma? No. BUT - if they're able to deliver me a machine for $100k with what I want, I'm probably in.

2 things weighing on me heavily right now:

1.) Cost of spare parts is EXTREMELY high for Okuma and Doosan... A replacement 12k cartridge spindle for a Haas is $3500... Lol.
2.) Fanuc control blows assholes.

Arrrrgggghhh...

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We run all Haas in our shop. we do some big cuts but we trachordial (SP?) milling so we're not buried in the material hogging like 1979 machining. Price is right and they work.

Spindles are good, HP is sufficient and techs are on point. Most CAD/CAM will do whatever they call it. Mines called Vortex (PartMaker), I think Mastercam calls it Dynamic. Whatever, it works and tool life is greatly increased.

Posted: 3/20/2017 1:17:53 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:

AutoDesk recently bought Delcam/PartMaker so we've been dealing with them lately. We're already a MasterCam shop in our Mil/lathel departments (I program Swiss Turns) but the looks of things PowerMill is pretty badass.

Post support is awesome and they have new pricing you might want to look into. No more $40k up front.

They've gone to a subscription model and it seems pretty reasonable. We were grandfathered in on our PartMaker but they showed us the new pricing (and let us play with PowerMill) and it seems like it should really benefit the smaller guys that don't have a huge checking account.

I watched a promotional video the other day where you could drag and drop solids into PowerMill and it basically did feature recognition and programmed itself. If you have a tool carousel with basic tooling you could really get by with barely having to do any programming yourself.

I was impressed.

View Quote

Feature Recognition in FeatureCAM works pretty well too. I'm happy Autodesk bought Delcam, since we are already an Inventor shop. I'm hoping to see smoother integration between models and programming.

Still doesn't recognize fucking threaded holes

I played around with Fusion for a few minutes since we have full seats, but I just don't follow why it's not more intuitively laid out for an Autodesk user.

Posted: 3/20/2017 1:21:15 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'm always amazed how much Morris can not make....

I think both Okuma and Morris will be OK. They fucked kuraki for a cold, hard, dry mil so....

. clowning...but yeah that sucks.

I was flat embarrassed at first when I was negotiating for my mill, the amount off of "list" was a huge number....like go buy a small Haas number. I started asking for more options, with less costs, and the answer was always yes. It's March madness. I was the last machine they sold in the region in that fiscal year, or so the story goes. I had a rep from Okuma in Charlotte walk into my little shop cold and basically do the the old "what will it take to put you in an Okuma today" routine.

Whatever, I got the machine I wanted for the price I could afford. I haven't regretted it a day since. Morris and Okuma have been good to me.

View Quote

Don't ever feel bad.

The only time I felt bad was when Toyoda took 13 of us out for supper at Smith and Wollensky during IMTS and one of my guys sent his lobster back because the tail was too small.

Holy shit that thing they came back with was a fucking sea monster.

Also, we have not been invited back since

Posted: 3/20/2017 1:37:39 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

Don't ever feel bad.

The only time I felt bad was when Toyoda took 13 of us out for supper at Smith and Wollensky during IMTS and one of my guys sent his lobster back because the tail was too small.

Holy shit that thing they came back with was a fucking sea monster.

Also, we have not been invited back since

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Haha...shit. That's when you're like really guy? Your free lobster was too small? Sounds about right.