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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:36:21 AM EDT
[#1]
Should stay locked. Like a very awkward bolt action.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:37:37 AM EDT
[#2]
Remove the cam pin for the win.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:38:19 AM EDT
[#3]
It would fire and your bolt carrier would get stuck in the buffer tube.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:39:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would fire and your bolt carrier would get stuck in the buffer tube. How would it unlock without the gas system attached. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:40:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Should stay locked. Like a very awkward bolt action. Makes sense to me. The bolt lugs should be locked in position so without the carrier coming back to cam the lugs out of alignment, it should all just stay put. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:40:57 AM EDT
[#6]
It would just go bang. Not any real magic to it.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:42:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How would it unlock without the gas system attached. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:43:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How would it unlock without the gas system attached. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It would fire and your bolt carrier would get stuck in the buffer tube. How would it unlock without the gas system attached. See, I wasn't sure if the cartridge going off would be enough to blow the bolt back. Would the recoil cam the bolt at all, unlocking it? |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:44:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP didn't get it all the way in battery. Where'd you gather that? |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:44:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would fire and your bolt carrier would get stuck in the buffer tube. No it wouldn't. The bolt would stay locked becaused the sole purpose of the gas system is to unlock and open the bolt. And the sole purpose of the buffer tube is to push the bolt back closed. Lot's of rifles come with adjustable gas blocks, and closing the gas block would have same exact same effect as doing what OP described, which is to turn it into a manual (bolt action) rather than semi auto gun. The only thing out of the ordinary to happen in OP's scenario is that some gas would escape the hole at the top of the barrel. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:45:14 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
See, I wasn't sure if the cartridge going off would be enough to blow the bolt back. Would the recoil cam the bolt at all, unlocking it? I wouldn't think so. The entire point of the locking lugs is to keep everything in place until the gas system drives the carrier back. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:46:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Is it on a treadmill?
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:47:41 AM EDT
[#13]
So, the carrier wouldn't get pushed back from gas (because there's no gas system), but would the cartridge going off transfer force through the bolt into the BCG like a Newtons Cradle type of thing? If so, it would then cam over and unlock, but would it still have enough left to blow back?
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:48:41 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Remove the cam pin for the win. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:48:56 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it on a treadmill? Hamster wheel. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:49:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
See, I wasn't sure if the cartridge going off would be enough to blow the bolt back. Would the recoil cam the bolt at all, unlocking it? Gas goes through the carrier key and down inside the bolt, and fromm there it expands and pushes the BCG backwards. As the BCG moves back the cam pin moves along a cut in the upper receiver, which in turn forces the bolt to rotate and unlock. Recoil alone will cause none of these effects. The bolt will remain locked without the gas pressure. In fact, that's the whole point of the rotating bolt being locked--so recoil doesn't force it out of battery too soon (that would be dangerous). |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:50:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Talk with our GB friends. They have a lot of experience with no gas system AR's.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:55:24 AM EDT
[#18]
I think OP needs to lookup "blow back operation", which simply uses a heavy enough bolt that locking is not necessary, and "gas operation". I think he has just figured out that they are different systems. Only low power guns can use blow back, because higher powered cartridges would require a massive bolt in order to delay blowback long enough for the bullet to leave the barrel.
A perfect example of direct blowback operation is the Hi-Point pistols with their big ugly slides. Those slides have to be that big to avoid needing a more complicated system. Most 9mm pistols today use "recoil operation" to delay opening the bolt and that's why they can have smaller slides. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:10:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gas goes through the carrier key and down inside the bolt, and fromm there it expands and pushes the BCG backwards. As the BCG moves back the cam pin moves along a cut in the upper receiver, which in turn forces the bolt to rotate and unlock. The gas goes through the carrier, forces the bolt rearward and the cam pin follows a slot cut into the bolt carrier, not the upper receiver. Once the bolt comes unlocked, THEN the bolt group goes rearward. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:13:16 AM EDT
[#20]
It would fire just fine. The second show would be awkward (probably impossible) without a forward assist though.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:14:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, the carrier wouldn't get pushed back from gas (because there's no gas system), but would the cartridge going off transfer force through the bolt into the BCG like a Newtons Cradle type of thing? If so, it would then cam over and unlock, but would it still have enough left to blow back? The bolt engages locking lugs in the barrel extension. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:16:22 AM EDT
[#22]
All semi auto gun designs require a brief delay before opening the bolt. The bullet must leave the barrel before the bolt backs off the chamber or the high pressure gasses will escape towards the shooter. Technically any type of mechanism could cause the delay (i.e. motorized). The simplest is always going to be blowback, because on a low powered gun like a 22LR the recoil spring alone can hold the bolt in place long enough.
Gas impingement (or gas piston) is used a lot for powerful calibers because it is very important the bolt stays locked, since recoil is sufficient to whack the bolt open violently otherwise. So we leave the bolt locked until the bullet is about to exist the barrel (that's why the gas block it towards the end of the barrel and not the front), and then we can just skimp off the necessary amount of gas to operate the reloading action. 
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:20:12 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, the carrier wouldn't get pushed back from gas (because there's no gas system), but would the cartridge going off transfer force through the bolt into the BCG like a Newtons Cradle type of thing? If so, it would then cam over and unlock, but would it still have enough left to blow back? I'm not saying to actually do this, but if someone were to...hypothetically...put an AR-15 barrel in a vice, chamber a round, close a bolt on that round, put a firing pin inside the bolt, and hit the head of that firing pin with a hammer, that contraption would go boom like a regular gun. Just saying... |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:30:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, the carrier wouldn't get pushed back from gas (because there's no gas system), but would the cartridge going off transfer force through the bolt into the BCG like a Newtons Cradle type of thing? If so, it would then cam over and unlock, but would it still have enough left to blow back? when forward, the bolt is locked into the locking lugs of the barrel extension. go stick a cleaning rod down into the barrel and try to push the bolt rearward when it's forward, you will not be able to. 
the bolt remains locked, until the bullet has left the barrel, and pressures drop to a safe level for extraction. that is the whole point of a gas operated firearm. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:30:47 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The gas goes through the carrier, forces the bolt rearward and the cam pin follows a slot cut into the bolt carrier, not the upper receiver. Once the bolt comes unlocked, THEN the bolt group goes rearward. Yes the bolt cam pin is unlocked using the cut in the carrier but that's only because the cam itself is captive in the upper receiver. I know it's a minor detail, but it's interesting to point out how important the upper receiver is in relation to the bolt locking and unlocking. It isn't just a slot for the BCG to ride in, there is a channel for the cam that is very important to proper functioning of an AR-15. For example, the cam channel keeps the bolt locked open even as it strips a cartridge from the magazine, and doesn't allow the bolt to rotate until it is in battery. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:49:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when forward, the bolt is locked into the locking lugs of the barrel extension. go stick a cleaning rod down into the barrel and try to push the bolt rearward when it's forward, you will not be able to.
the bolt remains locked, until the bullet has left the barrel, and pressures drop to a safe level for extraction. that is the whole point of a gas operated firearm. Honestly, it had never crossed my mind to try that. Just tried it. Holy crap, that is a lot of lock. Consider me schooled. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:58:56 AM EDT
[#27]
An AR without a gas system would just be a straight pull.
Some UK gun owners own various semi autos that work exactly like this. No gas system, the rest is the same. User cycles the action manually each shot. Straight Pull Saiga 103 in UK |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 3:00:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when forward, the bolt is locked into the locking lugs of the barrel extension. go stick a cleaning rod down into the barrel and try to push the bolt rearward when it's forward, you will not be able to.
the bolt remains locked, until the bullet has left the barrel, and pressures drop to a safe level for extraction. that is the whole point of a gas operated firearm. In the gif posted above, it looks like the bolt is locked when in its rearmost position relative the carrier. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 3:32:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, the carrier wouldn't get pushed back from gas (because there's no gas system), but would the cartridge going off transfer force through the bolt into the BCG like a Newtons Cradle type of thing? If so, it would then cam over and unlock, but would it still have enough left to blow back? No. The pressure during firing would push the bolt back onto the locking lugs. After the pressure has dropped enough to allow the bolt to move away from the lugs there will not be enough pressure to move the bolt back. |
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