User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 5:39:18 PM EDT
[#1]
You tell us, Future Man.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:02:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Depends on the Underwriters Laboratory rating for a particular safe.
Any safe that is fire resistant will be sure to mention an UL rating. If no mention then it is NOT fire resistant. Simple as that. Any safe owner can add fire-resistance to their existing safe by the simple means of adding internal sheets of commonly available sheet rock. Note that this involves the bottom and all sides, and ideally the sheet rock should be staggered. Unfortunately, adding sheet rock to the door is a bit problematic, but it can be done, after a little bit of practice.. Naturally, adding such fire retardant sheet rock also greatly decreases internal volume of a safe that formerly lacked such. It should be mentioned that for insurance purposes, any non-UL-listed safe is almost certainly non-insurable, and your contents are scrap. So, you can insure your collection for its full worth, but in the event of a fire, unless your safe is GTG as per your particular insurer, you are SOL Read the fine print, and get confirmation, in writing. from your insurer that your storage methods meet their standards. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:06:27 PM EDT
[#3]
There's no such thing as a fireproof safe... only fire resistant.
Had a guy give me about a dozen guns that were inside his "fireproof" safe during a house fire. The only one I could save was a 10/22. The rest were beyond savable. The only thing I could save from the 10/22 was the receiver. Everything else was a blob or rusted mess. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:13:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Better manufacturers use ceramic blanket instead of sheetrock. Look also for gaskets to seal the safe too. There is the Armory Forum with a Safe subforum. Member a1abdj is a full time safe vendor and I'd read up on some of his posts.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:20:42 PM EDT
[#5]
leave space around your safe and fill the gap with more sheetrock.
I've been thinking of putting a 55 gallon plastic drum on top of the safe, full of water. Figure if it melted thru, it might douse the immediate fire and prolong the time before all is consumed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:25:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Good point about defensible space. The more isolated, the better. Right against a cylinderblock, concrete filled corner (or poured wall) ensures that at least two sides of the safe is better protected. BTW, I'd use wonderboard over sheetrock. Tile cover it for more protection.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:26:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
leave space around your safe and fill the gap with more sheetrock. I've been thinking of putting a 55 gallon plastic drum on top of the safe, full of water. Figure if it melted thru, it might douse the immediate fire and prolong the time before all is consumed. Seems a little cartoonish, but would prob provide some extended or additional protection. That amount of water is likely not going to put out a room/house fire at all, even in the close vacinity. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:28:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
How well would a gun safe protect against a wildfire like the the recent Gatlinburg wildfires that melted engine blocks and rims? What kind of fire rating on a safe would it take? To be on safe side, it'd look like NORAD. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:30:42 PM EDT
[#9]
I've been to quite a few structure fires out in the boonies where the houses were razed to the foundation and the only thing left standing was the safe. Unfortunately wood still burns, plastic melts, metal warps even inside safes if they get hot enough for long enough. Don't count on a run of the mill safe for extended fire protection. I have no idea how the top of the line stuff holds up though.
Engine blocks and rims that melted were more than likely aluminum/magnesium. Steel melts at a higher temp, but not much higher (yes I had to look it up). eta We did the container of water on top of the safe discussion a few times before and it always ends up in a fight. The big thing is the weight. Water weighs 8.3 lbs/gallon. Then you do what? Wait for the container to melt? Better off with sprinklers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:33:07 PM EDT
[#10]
If yours is on the basement you could add a fire suppression sprinkler head above it. Most DIY people could do that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:36:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
How well would a gun safe protect against a wildfire like the the recent Gatlinburg wildfires that melted engine blocks and rims? What kind of fire rating on a safe would it take? It's not only the temp, but the time. Also, if water is used in the suppression, most likely the guns get very rusted especially if it is not protected from water getting in it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:40:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems a little cartoonish, but would prob provide some extended or additional protection. That amount of water is likely not going to put out a room/house fire at all, even in the close vacinity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
leave space around your safe and fill the gap with more sheetrock. I've been thinking of putting a 55 gallon plastic drum on top of the safe, full of water. Figure if it melted thru, it might douse the immediate fire and prolong the time before all is consumed. Seems a little cartoonish, but would prob provide some extended or additional protection. That amount of water is likely not going to put out a room/house fire at all, even in the close vacinity. Try Fire Grenades |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:45:49 PM EDT
[#13]
I doubt any safe will protect firearms against that.
When we had wildfires around here basements safes where intact but the contents were toast. That hot for that long turns safes into little ovens. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:47:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryYou could suspend that with some monofilament and the fire will drop it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:49:12 PM EDT
[#15]
In those fires all guns would be a total loss regardless of the safe.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:51:31 PM EDT
[#16]
The only thing that will protect your guns in a fire like that is insurance . . . and lots of it.
< < < NOT AN INSURANCE SALESMAN ! ! ! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 6:51:49 PM EDT
[#17]
fire is the main reason reason I built a vault into my new house. 12" thick walls, 10" top, 4" slab for a floor. Anything super important will go into my fire rated safe that will be in the vault.
I'm protected by basement savers out here in the country, I did all I could do to try and keep my valuables secure in case of a fire. Hopefully I never have to find out if it works. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:00:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point about defensible space. The more isolated, the better. Right against a cylinderblock, concrete filled corner (or poured wall) ensures that at least two sides of the safe is better protected. BTW, I'd use wonderboard over sheetrock. Tile cover it for more protection. I want to move a safe to the basement. I have poured concrete walls and a great location for a larger sized safe. My house is about 3 years old and I have never had any moisture issues in the basement. With that said, I would feel better if the safe was elevated about 6"- 1' off of the concrete floor if I ever had a "small" flooding issue. Is that valid concern or am I just being paranoid? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:12:16 PM EDT
[#19]
The safes here in Slave Lake did not fare well in the fire, neither did the ones from Fort McMurray I saw in pictures.
What appears to be the issue is that most safes with fire ratings are kind of designed to hold up for awhile until the fire can be fought, cooled and put out. During a SHTF scenario like Gatlinburg fires as well as the ones I mentioned noone is around to fight the fires effectively, so properties catch, and the safes just sit in coals cooking 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:13:11 PM EDT
[#20]
I think that the location of your safe in your house would be very important in how your guns survive in any safe. If your safe is in the middle of a stick-build structure, even if built on a slab, the fire will be all around and last a relatively long time. If you had your safe on a concrete slab in a cinder block garage, with only a wooden roof, then there is going to be less material to burn, and less length of time where the temperature is higher.
I had thought about putting a safe in a garage, in a corner, where the floor is a concrete slab, the walls near are block or concrete, and then building a casing around it of block, with layers of gypsum board in between for extra fire resistance. Definitely would make the safe hard to relocate, but would seem worth it for a permanent installation. The door opening would be the weakness. Install a fire sprinkler over the top (might help some depending how fast the pipes are damaged. The key is going to be to have your guns exposed to the lowest temp possible for the least amount of time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:23:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In those fires all guns would be a total loss regardless of the safe. I agree. Fire resistant safes are great if the fire department gets there in a timely fashion. If the entire structure burns to the ground then the safe won't make any difference. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:27:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to move a safe to the basement. I have poured concrete walls and a great location for a larger sized safe. My house is about 3 years old and I have never had any moisture issues in the basement. With that said, I would feel better if the safe was elevated about 6"- 1' off of the concrete floor if I ever had a "small" flooding issue. Is that valid concern or am I just being paranoid? After fire, water is the greatest threat to artifacts. Do elevate it but I'd pour a concrete and rebar pad for a platform. Do you have a sump and a sump pump? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:36:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After fire, water is the greatest threat to artifacts. Do elevate it but I'd pour a concrete and rebar pad for a platform. Do you have a sump and a sump pump? Yes, there is sump and sump pump. I was planning on adding a water powered backup pump in the sump. I also will be adding a complete new electric pump on the shelf in case of primary failure. I might be over thinking it.. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 7:42:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
leave space around your safe and fill the gap with more sheetrock. I've been thinking of putting a 55 gallon plastic drum on top of the safe, full of water. Figure if it melted thru, it might douse the immediate fire and prolong the time before all is consumed. LOL - that won't do shit. If there is a very small, very localized fire - maybe. But generally the heat from a fire is what will destroy the contents inside. As others said - different saves have different ratings. A house fire where the fire department gets there in time, will probably save it, especially if it is rated for a high degre fire for an hour or whatever. Those wild fires or fires where the whole house burns down, you end up with a standing safe and the contents cooked like in an over - the wood and plastic burnt/melted, ammo cooked off, ivory or rubber burnt, and if it gets hot enough the steel warps and weakens the steel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:07:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
leave space around your safe and fill the gap with more sheetrock. I've been thinking of putting a 55 gallon plastic drum on top of the safe, full of water. Figure if it melted thru, it might douse the immediate fire and prolong the time before all is consumed. Might as well put a small charge inside a 55 gallon drum full of baking soda. Hang the fuse for the charge onside the drum. Charge goes off, baking soda disperses everywhere. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:17:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Aren't most gun safes fireproofed with gypsum? If so, you are still facing some significant issues as gypsum is fire resistant because of its moisture content, which is converted to steam, which isn't going to be very kind to your guns either.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:22:08 PM EDT
[#27]
the physics majors showed up
too bad they are short bus team. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:22:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt any safe will protect firearms against that. When we had wildfires around here basements safes where intact but the contents were toast. That hot for that long turns safes into little ovens. Wildfires are not like house fires. House catches on fire, the FD is usually there within 5-10 minutes to start applying wet stuff to red stuff. Brushfires burn your house down and let the charred remains simmer for hours/days. I doubt there is much in the way of residential sized safes/security containers that will stand up to that. Too much heat transfer caused by long duration exposure. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:29:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might as well put a small charge inside a 55 gallon drum full of baking soda. Hang the fuse for the charge onside the drum. Charge goes off, baking soda disperses everywhere. My luck, it would create a FAE and blow up the house. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:31:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My luck, it would create a FAE and blow up the house. Baking soda doesn't make a good FAE. 
Unless you're running vinegar through your sprinkler system I think you'll be ok. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:40:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems a little cartoonish, but would prob provide some extended or additional protection. That amount of water is likely not going to put out a room/house fire at all, even in the close vacinity. Oh yes it would if put in the right place I have put out lots of fire with a water can back in the day steam expands biggly Might not do much on top of a safe but my point is if you know what you are doing you can put a room and contents fire out with 5 gallons Or at least knock it down Want to make the engine guys mad? Work on a truck company and put out their fire with a water can 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2016 8:46:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
leave space around your safe and fill the gap with more sheetrock. I've been thinking of putting a 55 gallon plastic drum on top of the safe, full of water. Figure if it melted thru, it might douse the immediate fire and prolong the time before all is consumed. Have you ever cooked an egg inside a paper cup stuck in the middle of a camp fire? It works, and quite well. I don't know for sure, but I imagine the same principle applies... the water would do a better job at keeping the bucket from melting then actually dousing your safe. Would be an interesting Mythbusters kinda experiment? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 8:08:14 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever cooked an egg inside a paper cup stuck in the middle of a camp fire? It works, and quite well. I don't know for sure, but I imagine the same principle applies... the water would do a better job at keeping the bucket from melting then actually dousing your safe. Would be an interesting Mythbusters kinda experiment? That is actually a very interesting theory. Sprinklers are probably the best way to go, especially if the expectation is that the neighborhood burns and the FD can't focus on my house first. As far as insurance goes, I'm looking at this from the perspective of protecting several machineguns from total destruction for the preservation of transferrables. If the regular stuff burns up, not that big of a deal, but the others are not replaceable. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 8:19:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not only the temp, but the time. Also, if water is used in the suppression, most likely the guns get very rusted especially if it is not protected from water getting in it. A lot of safes use sheetrock. It's not just for insulation, but because as it heats, it gives off water, which boils. That keeps everything in the safe from hitting 800F, but it also means the safe is full of nice, hot steam. Even when the guns survive metallurgically, I'd expect a lot of rust. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 8:46:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of safes use sheetrock. It's not just for insulation, but because as it heats, it gives off water, which boils. That keeps everything in the safe from hitting 800F, but it also means the safe is full of nice, hot steam. Even when the guns survive metallurgically, I'd expect a lot of rust. This is why all my guns are in gun socks, and my valuable paperwork is in another small safe in the safe. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 9:13:27 AM EDT
[#36]
I little bit of research would prevent one moving to a location that was consumed by fire.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 9:36:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As far as insurance goes, I'm looking at this from the perspective of protecting several machineguns from total destruction for the preservation of transferrables. If the regular stuff burns up, not that big of a deal, but the others are not replaceable. Store them broken down and grab the receivers along with your important papers (passport, birth certificate, marriage certificate, etc) right before you haul ass. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 9:40:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I little bit of research would prevent one moving to a location that was consumed by fire. Heck, the Great Sand Dunes should be about the safest place there is from fire then. Too bad it's a National Park Site.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 9:40:01 AM EDT
[#39]
I remember seeing gun safes after some wild fire in CA.
Whole house burned to the ground. Safe standing there in the middle of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 11:08:21 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The safes here in Slave Lake did not fare well in the fire, neither did the ones from Fort McMurray I saw in pictures. What appears to be the issue is that most safes with fire ratings are kind of designed to hold up for awhile until the fire can be fought, cooled and put out. During a SHTF scenario like Gatlinburg fires as well as the ones I mentioned noone is around to fight the fires effectively, so properties catch, and the safes just sit in coals cooking The only thing any safe can really do is buy time for the fire department to arrive. The good ones (ie not Sturdy) accomplish this by having materials (like drywall) that contain moisture. When heated this moisture is released into the safe which is what provides the protection. This can only last for so long though so once all of the moisture is released the safe will start to heat up internally quite rapidly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 11:11:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aren't most gun safes fireproofed with gypsum? If so, you are still facing some significant issues as gypsum is fire resistant because of its moisture content, which is converted to steam, which isn't going to be very kind to your guns either. That is true but it is also the only practical way to fight a fire in a residential "safe" according to TSG. Vaults and the like can rely on having 14"+ walls of concrete and other materials to keep heat out longer but moisture/steam is really the only way to manage the internal temperature of a space without having some sort of cooling device. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 11:20:45 AM EDT
[#42]
There was a forest fire here in CA that burned a members home. Safe had a good rating, but the contents were melted or burned. Nothing will withstand heat like that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 11:45:37 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is actually a very interesting theory. Sprinklers are probably the best way to go, especially if the expectation is that the neighborhood burns and the FD can't focus on my house first. As far as insurance goes, I'm looking at this from the perspective of protecting several machineguns from total destruction for the preservation of transferrables. If the regular stuff burns up, not that big of a deal, but the others are not replaceable. If that is the case, thick concrete walls with a vault door and a fp safe inside. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 12:01:07 PM EDT
[#44]
THE ONLY thing that might protect your safe in the event of a conflagration would be a domestic fire sprinkler head installed right over the safe. (assuming there is even pressure to meet the minimum GPM if "the entire block" is on fire.. )
They are the same heads used in a commercial or residential wet pipe fire sprinkler system, but you just install it on the cold water side of your home water lines. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 12:19:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In those fires all guns would be a total loss regardless of the safe. I'm going with this. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 1:33:04 PM EDT
[#46]
I wonder if creating a room that was totally lined with 2800* ceramic blankets would help?
I've put my hand on a DIY furnace that was built for knifemaking while the steel was heating up and it was only moderately warm on the outside. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 1:41:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever cooked an egg inside a paper cup stuck in the middle of a camp fire? It works, and quite well. I don't know for sure, but I imagine the same principle applies... the water would do a better job at keeping the bucket from melting then actually dousing your safe. Would be an interesting Mythbusters kinda experiment? Same principle works for boiling water in a big leaf or paper cup. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 1:46:24 PM EDT
[#48]
I have one of my safes wrapped with the ceramic wool on the outside that's rated to around that temp.
with some sheetrock then some sheetmetal as the outer layer, I hinged it so I could still get the door open and its a bitch but its where I keep my more expensive class 3 and civil war era guns that id like to keep in as good shape as possible if I ever have to deal with a fire I figure that it may help it withstand a fire a little longer then just a regular safe . the other safes I just keep as normal as the items in those can be replaced |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 5:42:11 PM EDT
[#49]
I'd imagine in a case like the wildfires in TN the only way to be safe would be clear distance between your structure and things that burn ,like brush and trees.
As the others said, moreso than a 'big tank of water' ,maybe a sprinkler system for just that room could be good. I really like the vault idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2016 5:45:09 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm thinking that in a situation like that your guns are going to be puddles.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
