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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:20:35 PM EDT
[#1]
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For fuck's sake, no religion wants honesty. That's why there is faith. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Mormons claim to know where the battles of Nephites and Lamanites took place (Hill Cumorah), purchased some of the land where it supposedly occurred, and yet no surveys or digs have ever been publicly published. Hmm. Good luck ever seeing this question answered honestly. No kidding. I don't see that any Mormon has bothered to answer it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:21:56 PM EDT
[#2]
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Tell that to the Mormons that didn't make it out of Missouri. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll explain it all in one word, nonsense. It's not like they are lopping heads off of non Mormons. They seem like pretty upstanding folks. I just leave them to believe whatever they want. Tell that to those poor folks from Arkansas that didn't make it out of Utah. Tell that to the Mormons that didn't make it out of Missouri. Snatching wives and daughters tended to cause that, back then ...... |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:23:13 PM EDT
[#3]
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No, but people like you love to point out Mountain Meadows like it's something that is kept hidden. Well, it was attempted to be kept hidden. Oops .... If only they had Hillary's IT guy on the case . |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:24:17 PM EDT
[#4]
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Polygamy, raising your own army, claiming to have an ear to God, etc... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There's a lot of parallels between Joseph Smith and Mohammed actually. Oh aren't you a piece of work. Polygamy, raising your own army, claiming to have an ear to God, etc... Child brides .... |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:24:25 PM EDT
[#5]
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Well, it was attempted to be kept hidden. Oops .... If only they had Hillary's IT guy on the case . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, but people like you love to point out Mountain Meadows like it's something that is kept hidden. Well, it was attempted to be kept hidden. Oops .... If only they had Hillary's IT guy on the case . When 150 years ago, because everyone knows about it now. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:27:01 PM EDT
[#6]
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Rule 42 of the internet: If it exists, there is porn of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Shit this thread reminds me: I was talking to someone about Mormons and I wondered if Temple Garment porn was a thing. Off to research..... ETA: Yes it is a thing. Rule 42 of the internet: If it exists, there is porn of it. Rule 34, heretic! |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:30:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Indoctrination is a hell of a drug!
Mormons are pounded from the second they are born into believing the Book of Mormon as an undeniable fact. Their whole lives are one long brainwashing session where non party line thought is stomped out immediately. Indoctrination happens in every religion though, Catholics, Christians, jews and Muslims, hell every single religion in the world does it. They all take kids who are too young to be able to think critically or question unfounded beliefs and teach them that their religion is the only true and right one and if you question it you will burn in hell forever. Thats pretty strong ju ju for a 4 year old who doesn't have the ability to question anything yet. They do this via Sunday school - Vacation bible school, Madrasas, church camps, Youth groups and so on. By the time the child reach adulthood the religion is usually so ingrained into their brains they can't even begin to question it. So I laugh to myself when a christian or a catholic dresses down a mormon because they believe something different when the same logic could be used to discount and discredit their own faith. Look at Islam, how do you think they get a steady stream of people willing to blow themselves up? Its because they have been brainwashed their whole lives and are blinded by faith because they know nothing else. The same thing is happening in ever religion just not to this extreme currently, but it has in the past. IMHO All religion is about control and they are all generaly bull shit. You can poke holes at will at every single major religion in the world with little effort. The thing is most people are too indoctrinated to even conceive that what they have been tough their whole lives is not true but rather a nice story but not really based in fact. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:30:40 PM EDT
[#8]
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No kidding. I don't see that any Mormon has bothered to answer it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Mormons claim to know where the battles of Nephites and Lamanites took place (Hill Cumorah), purchased some of the land where it supposedly occurred, and yet no surveys or digs have ever been publicly published. Hmm. Good luck ever seeing this question answered honestly. No kidding. I don't see that any Mormon has bothered to answer it. It has been answered in this thread. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:31:55 PM EDT
[#9]
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I'm sure somebody more studious, devout, whatever than I am will chime in, but the short answer to your question is yes. In the Book of Mormon the Lamanites essentially wipe out the Nephites. The Book of Mormon ends around 400AD and it is a commonly held belief amongst Mormons that Native Americans are descendents from the Lamanites. Having said that, I think I've read that genetic research has disproven that a bit and claims Native Americans are not of Middle Eastern descent (i.e. Israelites). They built great cities, too, but there's no archeological evidence of that, either. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:35:09 PM EDT
[#10]
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Snatching wives and daughters tended to cause that, back then ...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll explain it all in one word, nonsense. It's not like they are lopping heads off of non Mormons. They seem like pretty upstanding folks. I just leave them to believe whatever they want. Tell that to those poor folks from Arkansas that didn't make it out of Utah. Tell that to the Mormons that didn't make it out of Missouri. Snatching wives and daughters tended to cause that, back then ...... Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? As for the poor victims at Mountain Meadows, that was a result of panic/paranoia due to an advancing army (sent based on incorrect rumors) combined with desperation of the wagon train which needed supplies to survive the trip across to California. The locals at Cedar City weren't selling (because they were stockpiling in anticipation of a siege) while the wagon train was desperate to buy supplies. Tempers flared and the sad result was the massacre that followed. Wasn't so much a religious issue as some would like to portray it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:38:49 PM EDT
[#11]
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When 150 years ago, because everyone knows about it now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, but people like you love to point out Mountain Meadows like it's something that is kept hidden. Well, it was attempted to be kept hidden. Oops .... If only they had Hillary's IT guy on the case . When 150 years ago, because everyone knows about it now. Because the Mormans that perpetrated it were much lousier at hiding it, than doing it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:44:15 PM EDT
[#12]
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It's Rule 34. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Shit this thread reminds me: I was talking to someone about Mormons and I wondered if Temple Garment porn was a thing. Off to research..... ETA: Yes it is a thing. Rule 42 of the internet: If it exists, there is porn of it. It's Rule 34. My bad the internet has too many rules |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:44:33 PM EDT
[#13]
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Indoctrination is a hell of a drug! Mormons are pounded from the second they are born into believing the Book of Mormon as an undeniable fact. Their whole lives are one long brainwashing session where non party line thought is stomped out immediately. This is a distortion. We are taught of course that the Book of Mormon is true but are encouraged weekly to not take the words of those who've already received the witness from the Holy Ghost that it is true, but to receive our own witness from the Holy Ghost; which the Book of Mormon it self suggests we do. Big difference between indoctrination and teaching our children the doctrine and encouraging them to seek the truth of it through the witness of the Holy Ghost. It is the experiences that we have with the Holy Ghost that allows us to know truth though the world may disagree. Indoctrination happens in every religion though, Catholics, Christians, jews and Muslims, hell every single religion in the world does it. They all take kids who are too young to be able to think critically or question unfounded beliefs and teach them that their religion is the only true and right one and if you question it you will burn in hell forever. Thats pretty strong ju ju for a 4 year old who doesn't have the ability to question anything yet. They do this via Sunday school - Vacation bible school, Madrasas, church camps, Youth groups and so on. By the time the child reach adulthood the religion is usually so ingrained into their brains they can't even begin to question it. So I laugh to myself when a christian or a catholic dresses down a mormon because they believe something different when the same logic could be used to discount and discredit their own faith. Look at Islam, how do you think they get a steady stream of people willing to blow themselves up? Its because they have been brainwashed their whole lives and are blinded by faith because they know nothing else. The same thing is happening in ever religion just not to this extreme currently, but it has in the past. IMHO All religion is about control and they are all generaly bull shit. You can poke holes at will at every single major religion in the world with little effort. The thing is most people are too indoctrinated to even conceive that what they have been tough their whole lives is not true but rather a nice story but not really based in fact. Just what precisely do you think religions are trying to control and to what end? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:45:50 PM EDT
[#14]
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Because the Mormans that perpetrated it were much lousier at hiding it, than doing it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, but people like you love to point out Mountain Meadows like it's something that is kept hidden. Well, it was attempted to be kept hidden. Oops .... If only they had Hillary's IT guy on the case . When 150 years ago, because everyone knows about it now. Because the Mormans that perpetrated it were much lousier at hiding it, than doing it. LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:47:57 PM EDT
[#15]
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Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:48:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just what precisely do you think religions are trying to control and to what end? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Indoctrination is a hell of a drug! Mormons are pounded from the second they are born into believing the Book of Mormon as an undeniable fact. Their whole lives are one long brainwashing session where non party line thought is stomped out immediately. This is a distortion. We are taught of course that the Book of Mormon is true but are encouraged weekly to not take the words of those who've already received the witness from the Holy Ghost that it is true, but to receive our own witness from the Holy Ghost; which the Book of Mormon it self suggests. Big difference between indoctrination and teaching our children the doctrine and encouraging them to seek the truth of it through the witness of the Holy Ghost. It is the experiences that we have with the Holy Ghost that allows us to know truth though the world may disagree. Indoctrination happens in every religion though, Catholics, Christians, jews and Muslims, hell every single religion in the world does it. They all take kids who are too young to be able to think critically or question unfounded beliefs and teach them that their religion is the only true and right one and if you question it you will burn in hell forever. Thats pretty strong ju ju for a 4 year old who doesn't have the ability to question anything yet. They do this via Sunday school - Vacation bible school, Madrasas, church camps, Youth groups and so on. By the time the child reach adulthood the religion is usually so ingrained into their brains they can't even begin to question it. So I laugh to myself when a christian or a catholic dresses down a mormon because they believe something different when the same logic could be used to discount and discredit their own faith. Look at Islam, how do you think they get a steady stream of people willing to blow themselves up? Its because they have been brainwashed their whole lives and are blinded by faith because they know nothing else. The same thing is happening in ever religion just not to this extreme currently, but it has in the past. IMHO All religion is about control and they are all generaly bull shit. You can poke holes at will at every single major religion in the world with little effort. The thing is most people are too indoctrinated to even conceive that what they have been tough their whole lives is not true but rather a nice story but not really based in fact. Just what precisely do you think religions are trying to control and to what end? Fear of imaginary gods is the bases of all laws. Once people started living together in communities there had to be law and order and you need some supreme deity with super powers too strike fear. How better to control a population if not with the threat of eternal damnation for not playing by the rules? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:48:31 PM EDT
[#17]
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I dunno. How do Jews, Christians, and Muslims deal with the inconvenient genetic research discrepancies in the story of Adam and Eve? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm sure somebody more studious, devout, whatever than I am will chime in, but the short answer to your question is yes. In the Book of Mormon the Lamanites essentially wipe out the Nephites. The Book of Mormon ends around 400AD and it is a commonly held belief amongst Mormons that Native Americans are descendents from the Lamanites. Having said that, I think I've read that genetic research has disproven that a bit and claims Native Americans are not of Middle Eastern descent (i.e. Israelites). Interesting. How do mormon's deal with the inconvenient genetic research discrepencies? I dunno. How do Jews, Christians, and Muslims deal with the inconvenient genetic research discrepancies in the story of Adam and Eve? Well, you either believe that scientific research is wrong or you adopt the position that the particular story is allegorical and not meant to be taken literally. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:49:01 PM EDT
[#18]
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Because the Mormans that perpetrated it were much lousier at hiding it, than doing it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, but people like you love to point out Mountain Meadows like it's something that is kept hidden. Well, it was attempted to be kept hidden. Oops .... If only they had Hillary's IT guy on the case . When 150 years ago, because everyone knows about it now. Because the Mormans that perpetrated it were much lousier at hiding it, than doing it. 
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:50:17 PM EDT
[#19]
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Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. 
I think you got the roles reversed. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:50:59 PM EDT
[#20]
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Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. Don't forget the raping... |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:52:26 PM EDT
[#21]
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LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:55:20 PM EDT
[#22]
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I think you got the roles reversed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county.
I think you got the roles reversed. Ever heard of the Danites? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 1:59:29 PM EDT
[#23]
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Fear of imaginary gods is the bases of all laws. Once people started living together in communities there had to be law and order and you need some supreme deity with super powers too strike fear. How better to control a population if not with the threat of eternal damnation for not playing by the rules? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Indoctrination is a hell of a drug! Mormons are pounded from the second they are born into believing the Book of Mormon as an undeniable fact. Their whole lives are one long brainwashing session where non party line thought is stomped out immediately. This is a distortion. We are taught of course that the Book of Mormon is true but are encouraged weekly to not take the words of those who've already received the witness from the Holy Ghost that it is true, but to receive our own witness from the Holy Ghost; which the Book of Mormon it self suggests. Big difference between indoctrination and teaching our children the doctrine and encouraging them to seek the truth of it through the witness of the Holy Ghost. It is the experiences that we have with the Holy Ghost that allows us to know truth though the world may disagree. Indoctrination happens in every religion though, Catholics, Christians, jews and Muslims, hell every single religion in the world does it. They all take kids who are too young to be able to think critically or question unfounded beliefs and teach them that their religion is the only true and right one and if you question it you will burn in hell forever. Thats pretty strong ju ju for a 4 year old who doesn't have the ability to question anything yet. They do this via Sunday school - Vacation bible school, Madrasas, church camps, Youth groups and so on. By the time the child reach adulthood the religion is usually so ingrained into their brains they can't even begin to question it. So I laugh to myself when a christian or a catholic dresses down a mormon because they believe something different when the same logic could be used to discount and discredit their own faith. Look at Islam, how do you think they get a steady stream of people willing to blow themselves up? Its because they have been brainwashed their whole lives and are blinded by faith because they know nothing else. The same thing is happening in ever religion just not to this extreme currently, but it has in the past. IMHO All religion is about control and they are all generaly bull shit. You can poke holes at will at every single major religion in the world with little effort. The thing is most people are too indoctrinated to even conceive that what they have been tough their whole lives is not true but rather a nice story but not really based in fact. Just what precisely do you think religions are trying to control and to what end? Fear of imaginary gods is the bases of all laws. Once people started living together in communities there had to be law and order and you need some supreme deity with super powers too strike fear. How better to control a population if not with the threat of eternal damnation for not playing by the rules? Basis of all morality you mean? The morality that says it's not right to punch you in the head for saying foolish things spawns laws made by men against assault. This is a bad thing? It's not fear of imaginary gods but the love of God that resides in the hearts of God fearing(respecting) people that allows a free people to live in harmony with each other. It is only as we've begun to lose that God given morality born of love that we've had to legislate and make laws against every selfish act. The less people love and believe in God the more laws will be necessary to cohabitate peacefully, until either we have no peace or we have no freedom. Surely you can see this. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:09:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? The Mountain Meadows Masacre was a horible act perpetrated by men in difficult circumstances. The men responsible were excommunicated from the church once the truth was known and 'local authority' involved was executed for his crimes. It is brought up 150 years later only to try to smear the names of millions of people who had not one thing to do with it by association. Bad men commited horrible crimes and they were punished for it. It does not change the value of a belief system when some people who purport to be a part of it decidedly commit acts that are not in accordance with that belief system. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:16:21 PM EDT
[#25]
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been kind enough to address the topic itself. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng Don't forget this documentary on the subject. 
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:18:39 PM EDT
[#26]
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Well, you either believe that scientific research is wrong or you adopt the position that the particular story is allegorical and not meant to be taken literally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm sure somebody more studious, devout, whatever than I am will chime in, but the short answer to your question is yes. In the Book of Mormon the Lamanites essentially wipe out the Nephites. The Book of Mormon ends around 400AD and it is a commonly held belief amongst Mormons that Native Americans are descendents from the Lamanites. Having said that, I think I've read that genetic research has disproven that a bit and claims Native Americans are not of Middle Eastern descent (i.e. Israelites). Interesting. How do mormon's deal with the inconvenient genetic research discrepencies? I dunno. How do Jews, Christians, and Muslims deal with the inconvenient genetic research discrepancies in the story of Adam and Eve? Well, you either believe that scientific research is wrong or you adopt the position that the particular story is allegorical and not meant to be taken literally. I looked into mormonism after seeing some "elders" who were teenagers. Nice, polite kids. There are other irreconcilable conflicts beyond the DNA problems in the book of mormon. 1 - Construction of a second Jewish temple. By Jews. The temple in Jerusalem was and will ever be the ONLY one. It has absolute centrality in Judaism, and can only exist in that one place. 2 - Geography. Aside of archaeology failing to establish any evidence of the giant battle in upstate NY, or any of the sprawling cities described to have existed in the USA, the description of the geography does not match. 3 - Flora and Fauna - Horses, corn, wheat and many others that simply didn't exist here during that time are claimed to have existed. 4 - Failed prophesy - Kinderhook plates, "the book of abraham," people living on the moon, etc. 5 - No ancient text, manuscript or any writing from anyone during the time period to corroborate. I'm not saying there isn't an inexplicable thing in the Bible, but the Bible says 'Jerusalem' ....and there's Jerusalem. The Bible says now what it said back then, and textual criticism along with ancient documentary evidence clearly establishes it, along with a translation lineage that isn't debatable. This video highlights some of the differences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1mFdO1wB08 Of course there are apologists who will box these in one at a time and reach extremely far for even a scintilla of a maybe. So far, that it sounds like this: Go to the Jersey shore and look for black grains of sand. It will take time, but you'll find some. Collect a small baggie of them, then go back to the midwest and rail from a soapbox about the black sand beaches of New Jersey. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:18:56 PM EDT
[#27]
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Ever heard of the Danites? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county.
I think you got the roles reversed. Ever heard of the Danites? Yeah i always blame cause on effect on the effect and not the cause. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:41:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryBasis of all morality you mean? The morality that says it's not right to punch you in the head for saying foolish things spawns laws made by men against assault. This is a bad thing? It's not fear of imaginary gods but the love of God that resides in the hearts of God fearing(respecting) people that allows a free people to live in harmony with each other. It is only as we've begun to lose that God given morality born of love that we've had to legislate and make laws against every selfish act. The less people love and believe in God the more laws will be necessary to cohabitate peacefully, until either we have no peace or we have no freedom. Surely you can see this.
I never said laws or morality was a bad thing I was only stating the how/why the concept of law originated. You say It's not fear of imaginary gods but the love of God that resides in the hearts of God fearing(respecting) people that allows a free people to live in harmony I assume you are speaking of only your God in this scenario? Religion has more to do with geography then belief based on facts. Most people have their religion decided before they are even born. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:41:59 PM EDT
[#29]
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The Lord did leave a message in the Book of Mormon for you though Old Painless. I truly hope you consider these words carefully. <snip> Thanks for the offer, but I wholly reject that as blasphemy and heresy. I will trust the God of the Bible, not the one that Joseph Smith made up. It is too late for Smith to change his mind, but not for you. Please reconsider while there is time. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:52:45 PM EDT
[#30]
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Thanks for the offer, but I wholly reject that as blasphemy and heresy. I will trust the God of the Bible, not the one that Joseph Smith made up. It is too late for Smith to change his mind, but not for you. Please reconsider while there is time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Lord did leave a message in the Book of Mormon for you though Old Painless. I truly hope you consider these words carefully. <snip> Thanks for the offer, but I wholly reject that as blasphemy and heresy. I will trust the God of the Bible, not the one that Joseph Smith made up. It is too late for Smith to change his mind, but not for you. Please reconsider while there is time. Yes the old testament of the bible written by goat herders 2500 years ago is way more believable than every other religion that came before or since. Just because there are geographical name consistency in the bible and today doesn't mean the rest is factual or any more believable then Joseph Smith's magic glasses and magic tablets only he can see. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 2:54:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? Even if the MMM was as you would like it to be (worst-case scenario), what are you getting at? That because of the actions of a group of people 150+ years ago that hasn't been repeated, that all Mormons are evil and the religion is bad? Does that also work for any other group or individual who does something like that? Has the US military ever done anything akin to that, for example? If so, how many times? Once, like the Mormons?  I may be assuming, but given your posts on this subject, it seems like you're trying to take whatever happened at MMM and extrapolate that out to mean that Mormons are bad people, the religion is bad, etc, etc. All based on one single event. Now, if the Mormons were doing that repeatedly, again and again - then we'd have something to talk about, but is that the case? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:00:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. Sounds like what the federal government and non-Mormon, did to all the Native American tribes..... |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:02:49 PM EDT
[#33]
I've made postings before asking for a philisopical discussion between christians and and athiests (me), and was met with some seriously intense personal attacks; I was pretty shocked.
This thread has done incredible things in showing how brainwashed some people are in their beliefs. Really fascinating. "Your belief in israelites becoming the native americans is absurd, but my prophet totally rose from the dead after his crucifixion." |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:06:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say that as we transitioned to adults, when they tried to convert me and I said NO. Well that was the very last time I heard from 99% of them. There is one older guy that will still talk to me if he sees me. This was all over 30 years ago. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:06:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've made postings before asking for a philisopical discussion between christians and and athiests (me), and was met with some seriously intense personal attacks; I was pretty shocked. This thread has done incredible things in showing how brainwashed some people are in their beliefs. Really fascinating. "Your belief in israelites becoming the native americans is absurd, but my prophet totally rose from the dead after his crucifixion." 95% of the personal attacks are from atheists. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:09:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I was reading about the Mormon religion, and had a question. Founded by Joseph Smith, the faith drew its first converts while Smith was dictating the text of The Book of Mormon from golden plates which had reformed Egyptian writing on them which he said he found buried after being directed to their location by the Angel Moroni. The book described itself as a chronicle of early indigenous peoples of the Americas, known as the Nephites, portraying them as believing Israelites, who had a belief in Christ many hundred years before his birth. According to The Book of Mormon, the Nephites are one of four groups (including the Lamanites, Jaredites, and Mulekites) which settled in the ancient Americas. The Nephites are described as a group of people that descended from or were associated with Nephi, the son of the prophet Lehi, who left Jerusalem at the urging of God c. 600 BC and traveled with his family to the Western Hemisphere, arriving in the Americas c. 589 BC. Does this mean that Nephites became Native Americans, or what is supposed to have happened to these people? To some extent they're part of the races of North and Central America The Book of Mormon does not exclude other groups who might have been here or migrated here. Or talks of them. The Book of Mormon is of "one" such group. Basically a family. One of the interesting things about archaeology is that the civilizations of the America's seemed to have originated in the south and moved north. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:09:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've made postings before asking for a philisopical discussion between christians and and athiests (me), and was met with some seriously intense personal attacks; I was pretty shocked. This thread has done incredible things in showing how brainwashed some people are in their beliefs. Really fascinating. "Your belief in israelites becoming the native americans is absurd, but my prophet totally rose from the dead after his crucifixion." Religion is mass brainwashing that is passed down generationally based on geography. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:11:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
95% of the personal attacks are from atheists. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've made postings before asking for a philisopical discussion between christians and and athiests (me), and was met with some seriously intense personal attacks; I was pretty shocked. This thread has done incredible things in showing how brainwashed some people are in their beliefs. Really fascinating. "Your belief in israelites becoming the native americans is absurd, but my prophet totally rose from the dead after his crucifixion." 95% of the personal attacks are from atheists. Not in my experience. I've never insulted a christian for their beliefs, but have been called a fool, troll, liar, disciple of satan, ignorant, close minded, weak, etc for simply offering opposing views. Hell, look at this page. There's some serious mud slinging between mormons and (other)Christians. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:12:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not in my experience. I've never insulted a christian for their beliefs, but have been called a fool, troll, liar, disciple of satan, ignorant, close minded, weak, etc for simply offering opposing views. Hell, look at this page. There's some serious mud slinging between mormons and (other)Christians. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've made postings before asking for a philisopical discussion between christians and and athiests (me), and was met with some seriously intense personal attacks; I was pretty shocked. This thread has done incredible things in showing how brainwashed some people are in their beliefs. Really fascinating. "Your belief in israelites becoming the native americans is absurd, but my prophet totally rose from the dead after his crucifixion." 95% of the personal attacks are from atheists. Not in my experience. I've never insulted a christian for their beliefs, but have been called a fool, troll, liar, disciple of satan, ignorant, close minded, weak, etc for simply offering opposing views. Hell, look at this page. There's some serious mud slinging between mormons and (other)Christians. Yeah you gotta watch those protestants, they like burning people at the stake. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:29:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? 1. Yes, local LDS members from the Cedar City area, at that time, perpetrated the massacre. 2. Local leadership? As in the leadership in Cedar City? Yes. Some were excommunicated when it was discovered what they did. One was sentenced in a court of law and executed. IMO, there were more who deserved execution. 3. Yes, the locals attempted to shift the blame to the Native Americans. 4. Yes, they were confiscated. Another crime that again I think more of the locals deserved criminal charges for. 5. Both President Buchanan's administration in Washington and the LDS leadership in Utah were eager to sweep the matter under the rug for years. First because Buchanan had egg on his face for unnecessarily launching what was the most expensive US military expedition in US history up to that time. Second, the LDS had good reason to be paranoid of further persecution and attacks from the government back east. The result was that a more extensive criminal investigation did not occur. 6. If not for the army marching towards the territory, it is unlikely the massacre would have ever occurred. The locals wouldn't have been stockpiling/hoarding goods for an anticipated siege, wouldn't have been paranoid, would have been willing to sell to the wagon train the way they had to many other wagon trains before and after, and the wagon train would have had access to the supplies it needed to cross to California. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:35:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Mountain Meadows Masacre was a horible act perpetrated by men Mormons, specifically Utah Territorial Militia, under a false flag of truce in difficult circumstances for no damned reason at all, and possibly with the concurrence of Brigham Young. The men responsible were excommunicated from the church once the truth was known cover-up was blown and 'local authority' one scapegoat involved was executed for his crimes. It is brought up 150 years later only to try to smear the names of millions of people who had not one thing to do with it by association. Bad men commited horrible crimes and they all of ONE were punished for it. It does not change the value of a belief system when some people who purport to be a part of it decidedly commit acts that are not in accordance with that belief system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? The Mountain Meadows Masacre was a horible act perpetrated by men Mormons, specifically Utah Territorial Militia, under a false flag of truce in difficult circumstances for no damned reason at all, and possibly with the concurrence of Brigham Young. The men responsible were excommunicated from the church once the truth was known cover-up was blown and 'local authority' one scapegoat involved was executed for his crimes. It is brought up 150 years later only to try to smear the names of millions of people who had not one thing to do with it by association. Bad men commited horrible crimes and they all of ONE were punished for it. It does not change the value of a belief system when some people who purport to be a part of it decidedly commit acts that are not in accordance with that belief system. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:40:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? As for the poor victims at Mountain Meadows, that was a result of panic/paranoia due to an advancing army (sent based on incorrect rumors) combined with desperation of the wagon train which needed supplies to survive the trip across to California. The locals at Cedar City weren't selling (because they were stockpiling in anticipation of a siege) while the wagon train was desperate to buy supplies. Tempers flared and the sad result was the massacre that followed. Wasn't so much a religious issue as some would like to portray it. And Benghazi was over a video... |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:41:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah i always blame cause on effect on the effect and not the cause. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county.
I think you got the roles reversed. Ever heard of the Danites? Yeah i always blame cause on effect on the effect and not the cause. So in your world, the Mormons weren't gathered in Missouri because they were going to inherit the land of the existing settlers after the establishment of "Zion" there? Mormon vigilantes did not burn out or drive out non-Mormons and former Mormons? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:41:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been kind enough to address the topic itself. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng Don't forget this documentary on the subject.  youtu.be/3HSlbuli7HM |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:41:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes the old testament of the bible written by goat herders 2500 years ago is way more believable than every other religion that came before or since. Just because there are geographical name consistency in the bible and today doesn't mean the rest is factual or any more believable then Joseph Smith's magic glasses and magic tablets only he can see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Lord did leave a message in the Book of Mormon for you though Old Painless. I truly hope you consider these words carefully. <snip> Thanks for the offer, but I wholly reject that as blasphemy and heresy. I will trust the God of the Bible, not the one that Joseph Smith made up. It is too late for Smith to change his mind, but not for you. Please reconsider while there is time. Yes the old testament of the bible written by goat herders 2500 years ago is way more believable than every other religion that came before or since. Just because there are geographical name consistency in the bible and today doesn't mean the rest is factual or any more believable then Joseph Smith's magic glasses and magic tablets only he can see. Old Testament has fulfilled prophecy. Joseph Smith? Not so much. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:42:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the offer, but I wholly reject that as blasphemy and heresy. I will trust the God of the Bible, not the one that Joseph Smith made up. It is too late for Smith to change his mind, but not for you. Please reconsider while there is time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Lord did leave a message in the Book of Mormon for you though Old Painless. I truly hope you consider these words carefully. <snip> Thanks for the offer, but I wholly reject that as blasphemy and heresy. I will trust the God of the Bible, not the one that Joseph Smith made up. It is too late for Smith to change his mind, but not for you. Please reconsider while there is time. You saying that to me is like a Jewish person telling you to give up Jesus Christ and the New Testament and accept only the first 5 books of the Old Testament (the Torah). You would never do such a thing because presumably you know what Jesus Christ has done to your life and your heart. I feel the EXACT SAME WAY about the Book of Mormon, which testifies of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I know it is truth because I've received the witness of the Holy Ghost that it is. I know it is true because I've lived by its precepts and have seen my life expand toward God. I get that just like the Jews of old you will reject the further words of God to man, the other witnesses of Christ, but asking me to do so is as preposterous as a Jewish person asking you to reject Christ. I will not do it, I already know it's true. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:44:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? The Mountain Meadows Masacre was a horible act perpetrated by men Mormons, specifically Utah Territorial Militia, under a false flag of truce in difficult circumstances for no damned reason at all, and possibly with the concurrence of Brigham Young. The men responsible were excommunicated from the church once the truth was known cover-up was blown and 'local authority' one scapegoat involved was executed for his crimes. It is brought up 150 years later only to try to smear the names of millions of people who had not one thing to do with it by association. Bad men commited horrible crimes and they all of ONE were punished for it. It does not change the value of a belief system when some people who purport to be a part of it decidedly commit acts that are not in accordance with that belief system. Your colorful description falls apart once one considers that non-LDS wagon trains passed through Utah before and after this isolated event without incident. A rational person would want to understand why a community that freely traded and allowed safe passage for wagon trains before and after would behave in this singularly different manner. Your response also manifests a desire to assume the worst no matter what is known. I don't see any reason to continue the conversation with you. 
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:47:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even if the MMM was as you would like it to be (worst-case scenario), what are you getting at? That because of the actions of a group of people 150+ years ago that hasn't been repeated, that all Mormons are evil and the religion is bad? Does that also work for any other group or individual who does something like that? Has the US military ever done anything akin to that, for example? If so, how many times? Once, like the Mormons?
I may be assuming, but given your posts on this subject, it seems like you're trying to take whatever happened at MMM and extrapolate that out to mean that Mormons are bad people, the religion is bad, etc, etc. All based on one single event. Now, if the Mormons were doing that repeatedly, again and again - then we'd have something to talk about, but is that the case? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL! You talk as if you're an expert on the LDS, yet don't even know how to spell "Mormon" correctly. Question 1 - the people that perpetrated the MM Massacre were Mormon (correct spelling?)? Question 2 - the massacre was a conspiracy involving local church leadership? Question 3 - an attempt was made to shift blame for the deaths to Native Americans - yes? Question 4 - livestock, wagons, valuables, and children were confiscated by the Mormons? Even if the MMM was as you would like it to be (worst-case scenario), what are you getting at? That because of the actions of a group of people 150+ years ago that hasn't been repeated, that all Mormons are evil and the religion is bad? Does that also work for any other group or individual who does something like that? Has the US military ever done anything akin to that, for example? If so, how many times? Once, like the Mormons?
I may be assuming, but given your posts on this subject, it seems like you're trying to take whatever happened at MMM and extrapolate that out to mean that Mormons are bad people, the religion is bad, etc, etc. All based on one single event. Now, if the Mormons were doing that repeatedly, again and again - then we'd have something to talk about, but is that the case? Nope. Germans in general aren't bad people - but the Holocaust happened. Japanese in general aren't bad people. But Unit 731 and the Rape of Nanking happened. Any particular German or Japanese that tried to deny those? That particular German or Japanese is not a "good person". Mormons in general are good people. Where would we be today without John Moses Browning or Howard Hughes? However, the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened, it was a conspiracy on the part of the local Mormon leadership. It was inspired by the national Mormon leadership, although they may not have had particular foreknowledge of it. National Mormon leadership did participate in covering up and stonewalling the investigation of this heinous crime, and all of ONE person was ever convicted of this. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:48:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like what the federal government and non-Mormon, did to all the Native American tribes..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not sure what you're talking about? If you're referring to plural marriage, there was a single case in Kirtland Ohio, and no more instances until Nauvoo, IL. So I don't see how that relates to Missouri? So who's wives or daughters were being snatched in Missouri? Your right. In Missouri, they weren't snatching wives and daughters. They were burning them out of their houses. When not running them out of the county. Sounds like what the federal government and non-Mormon, did to all the Native American tribes..... Disease did far more to the Native Americans than overt action. You do have a point. My counter would be that there still exist some of our aboriginal peoples - not so much elsewhere. Here, Australia, and Japan are kind of special that way. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 3:51:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Theology matters.
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