Statistical comparison of Geissele(x2), RRA and Larue(x2) triggers.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Statistical comparison of Geissele(x2), RRA and Larue(x2) triggers. (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:19:32 PM EDT

I've got several nice triggers I enjoy, multiple MBT's and a couple Geissele's. I recently decided to pull an MBT from one of my rifles and replace it with a B-G2S-E because I wanted a lighter weight second stage. I really wanted another Hi Speed Match, but I didn't want to fork out the cash and decided I would see how the more budget friendly B-G2S-E performed. For those who aren't familiar with the B-G2S-E, it's manufactured specifically for Brownells using the same techniques as the G2S, while replicating the pull of the SSA-E.

For reference, I sold and SD-C (same pull as the SSA, but with a straight trigger face) and bought another MBT as I thought the MBT felt as good or better than the SD-C.

I wanted a better guide to how my triggers are performing than just my feel. I've got a Lyman digital trigger gauge and figured I could put it to work. I decided to measure each trigger pull ten times, then see how large the extreme spread and standard deviation is. Just in case 10 pulls isn't enough, I went ahead and measured three sets of 10 pulls. For reference, I performed the same test on my Geissele High Speed Match. This test should provide a good idea of how consistent the break is on the different triggers.

The Lyman gauge measures in pounds and ounces, so I converted it to straight ounces to make the math easier.

Edited with second MBT (older) and more RRA data:

	B-G2S-E	Set 1				B-G2S-E	Set 2					B-G2S-E	Set 3
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined	Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined		Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	4	1.3	65.3		1	4	3.2	67.2			1	4	3	67
2	3	15.7	63.7		2	4	2.8	66.8			2	4	1.5	65.5
3	4	3.9	67.9		3	4	1.6	65.6			3	4	1.6	65.6
4	4	2.1	66.1		4	4	0.4	64.4			4	3	15.1	63.1
5	4	2.1	66.1		5	4	0.2	64.2			5	3	14.1	62.1
6	4	2.4	66.4		6	4	3	67			6	4	0	64
7	4	2.4	66.4		7	4	2.1	66.1			7	4	4.4	68.4
8	4	1.6	65.6		8	4	3.3	67.3			8	4	1.9	65.9
9	4	3.8	67.8		9	4	0.8	64.8			9	4	1	65
10	4	1.8	65.8		10	3	15.3	63.3			10	4	1.9	65.9
Average			66.11		Average			65.67			Average			65.25
ES	67.9	63.7	4.2		ES	67.3	63.3	4			ES	68.4	62.1	6.3
SD			1.142322		SD			1.355765			SD			1.737383


	New MBT	Set 1				New MBT	Set 2					New MBT	Set 3
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined	Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined		Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	4	0.1	64.1		1	4	5.2	69.2			1	4	3.2	67.2
2	4	2.7	66.7		2	4	1.8	65.8			2	4	3.1	67.1
3	4	1.7	65.7		3	4	2.4	66.4			3	4	2.5	66.5
4	4	1.3	65.3		4	4	3.9	67.9			4	4	4.8	68.8
5	4	0.3	64.3		5	4	2.4	66.4			5	4	4.9	68.9
6	4	0.3	64.3		6	4	1.9	65.9			6	4	3.1	67.1
7	4	1	65		7	4	2.3	66.3			7	4	3.5	67.5
8	4	2.8	66.8		8	4	1.9	65.9			8	4	3.4	67.4
9	4	4.4	68.4		9	4	3.3	67.3			9	4	1.4	65.4
10	4	2.7	66.7		10	4	4.4	68.4			10	4	0.9	64.9
Average			65.73		Average			66.95			Average			67.08
ES	68.4	64.1	4.3		ES	69.2	65.8	3.4			ES	68.9	64.9	4
SD			1.327441		SD			1.128938			SD			1.203162


	Hi Speed	Set 1				Hi Speed	Set 2					Hi Speed	Set 3
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined	Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined		Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	2	0	32		1	1	15.6	31.6			1	2	0.8	32.8
2	1	15.3	31.3		2	1	14.5	30.5			2	2	0.8	32.8
3	2	1	33		3	1	15.6	31.6			3	2	1.1	33.1
4	2	0.1	32.1		4	1	15.1	31.1			4	1	15.8	31.8
5	2	1.1	33.1		5	1	15.8	31.8			5	1	14.2	30.2
6	2	1	33		6	1	14.8	30.8			6	2	0.2	32.2
7	2	1.1	33.1		7	2	0	32			7	2	1.6	33.6
8	1	15.1	31.1		8	2	0.3	32.3			8	1	14.8	30.8
9	1	15.6	31.6		9	2	0.6	32.6			9	1	15.9	31.9
10	1	14.9	30.9		10	2	0.8	32.8			10	2	0.4	32.4
Average			32.12		Average			31.71			Average			32.16
ES	33.1	30.9	2.2		ES	32.8	30.5	2.3			ES	33.6	30.2	3.4
SD			0.834026		SD			0.714773			SD			0.986103


	Old MBT	Set 1				Old MBT	Set 2					Old MBT	Set 3
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined	Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined		Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	3	11.4	59.4		1	3	10.1	58.1			1	3	12.2	60.2
2	3	8.8	56.8		2	3	11.3	59.3			2	3	11.4	59.4
3	3	11.2	59.2		3	3	12.4	60.4			3	3	11.1	59.1
4	3	14.4	62.4		4	3	12.6	60.6			4	3	11.8	59.8
5	3	12.1	60.1		5	3	9.3	57.3			5	3	13.2	61.2
6	3	13.8	61.8		6	3	11.6	59.6			6	3	12.2	60.2
7	3	13.5	61.5		7	3	14.5	62.5			7	3	12.5	60.5
8	3	12.2	60.2		8	3	11.2	59.2			8	3	11.7	59.7
9	3	14.8	62.8		9	3	10.7	58.7			9	3	13.3	61.3
10	3	12.9	60.9		10	3	13	61			10	3	12.6	60.6
Average			60.51		Average			59.67			Average			60.2
ES	62.8	56.8	6		ES	62.5	57.3	5.2			ES	61.3	59.1	2.2
SD			1.690828		SD			1.433911			SD			0.687023


	RRA Varmint	Set 1				RRA Varmint	Set 2					RRA Varmint	Set 3
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined	Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined		Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	4	8	72		1	4	10.2	74.2			1	4	3.8	67.8
2	4	3.8	67.8		2	4	5.4	69.4			2	4	4	68
3	4	5.9	69.9		3	4	5.5	69.5			3	4	3	67
4	4	3.1	67.1		4	4	5.1	69.1			4	4	2.4	66.4
5	4	2.6	66.6		5	4	3.9	67.9			5	4	0	64
6	4	2	66		6	4	3.4	67.4			6	4	1.2	65.2
7	4	1.4	65.4		7	4	3.6	67.6			7	4	1.5	65.5
8	4	1.8	65.8		8	4	2.1	66.1			8	4	2.9	66.9
9	4	2.3	66.3		9	4	3.9	67.9			9	3	15.6	63.6
10	4	0.8	64.8		10	4	2.4	66.4			10	4	2.4	66.4
Average			67.17		Average			68.55			Average			66.08
ES	72	64.8	7.2		ES	74.2	66.1	8.1			ES	67.8	63.6	4.2
SD			2.10383		SD			2.180482			SD			1.412657

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:21:15 PM EDT

[#1]

The third set of data for each trigger seems to be misaligned, hopefully it's still easy to read.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:27:56 PM EDT

[#2]

HiSpeed Match > all

What I gathered from these results was that the first two are Pretty similar.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:30:26 PM EDT

[#3]

Also, where on the trigger do you position the Gauge? I'm pretty sure minor changes to position can affect the reading.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:31:17 PM EDT

[#4]

thanks for the data

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:32:28 PM EDT

[#5]

1. Samples of one.
2. Gage R&R completed?

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:35:30 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
1. Samples of one.
2. Gage R&R completed?

View Quote

We're also gonna need control charts and capability studies.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:35:56 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

1. Samples of one.

2. Gage R&R completed?

View Quote

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:37:15 PM EDT

[#8]

Does the Lyman provide a spec on it's own accuracy? Do you know what the full scale reading of the Lyman is?

I have several different G triggers (SSA, SSA-E, SD-C, 3Gun) and a couple MBT's. I prefer the feel of the G triggers but the MBT is good to go as well.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:38:17 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

Also, where on the trigger do you position the Gauge? I'm pretty sure minor changes to position can affect the reading.

View Quote

Yes it can. I tried to be very careful in aligning it to the same spot on every trigger. Nominally about two thirds of the way down the trigger face. Deep enough into the curve that it didn't roll at all. I also did my best to ensure each pull was straight back and used the line of the buffer tube to help ensure I only pulled straight back.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:38:28 PM EDT

[#10]

I'm gonna need to see a calibration sticker on that Lyman scale

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:40:02 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

1. Samples of one.

2. Gage R&R completed?

View Quote

I would be happy to sample more if you want to send them my may

I've got another MBT that I ran through a set of 10. I haven't finished running it through the next two sets though.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:41:15 PM EDT

[#12]

OP can you include any disclosure statements as to equity interests and conflicts of interest. Your tax returns for the last three years might also be useful.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:46:47 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

OP can you include any disclosure statements as to equity interests and conflicts of interest. Your tax returns for the last three years might also be useful.

View Quote

Lol. I have received multiple "free" bottles of a seasoning I enjoy. I think a couple years ago I got a free hat. I would like to have a G hat, but I've never bought direct from him (accept for the fundraiser he did awhile back).

I like gear, whether ADM, Larue or Geissele makes it.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:48:57 PM EDT

[#14]

FYI, one thing about the HSNM that is going to make it look better in raw values is the fact that the numbers are smaller to begin with so the arithmetic kind of favors it based on trigger pull weight. Looking at the percentage of the average pull weights kind of gives a different insight into the consistency of the pull. (Imagine if the pull weight was 10 pounds...a variation of several ounces wouldn't really be noticable at all!

So here's the averages with percentages...cuz I'm a nerd.

ETA as a pic instead

As a percentage of pull weight the MBT "wins" pretty clearly.

Posted: 7/28/2016 12:51:43 PM EDT

[#15]

interesting post is interesting. thanks

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:08:07 PM EDT

[#16]

That's a remarkable piece of forum code alignment work.

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:10:19 PM EDT

[#17]

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:21:41 PM EDT

[#18]

this is nearly as good as 3 shot groups to define performance

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:22:43 PM EDT

[#19]

OP, I'm at work. Using my brain to find a conclusion to your data would make my head explode at the moment. Can you give me a TL;DR version?

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:29:42 PM EDT

[#20]

Pull weight is what it is. The MBT isn't meant to be a HSNM, just as a HSNM isn't meant to be a SD-C. The MBT seems to sit somewhere between the SSA and SSA-E in weight, though I've only used an SSA a handful of times and don't own one (unlike the MBT-2S and SSA-E).

IMHO, the MBT take up and break is superior to the SSA-E take up and break. The MBT-2S has a smoother takeup and the break is much more clean/sharp/crisp with less over travel.

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:30:04 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:

this is nearly as good as 3 shot groups to define performance

View Quote

Hey, it's worth at least as much as you paid for it

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:33:33 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
FYI, one thing about the HSNM that is going to make it look better in raw values is the fact that the numbers are smaller to begin with so the arithmetic kind of favors it based on trigger pull weight. Looking at the percentage of the average pull weights kind of gives a different insight into the consistency of the pull. (Imagine if the pull weight was 10 pounds...a variation of several ounces wouldn't really be noticable at all!

So here's the averages with percentages...cuz I'm a nerd.

ETA as a pic instead
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=90596

As a percentage of pull weight the MBT "wins" pretty clearly.

View Quote

Somewhere in rural Virginia, L_JE screams in anguish because he missed a chance to fire up Excel.

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:39:44 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
1. Samples of one.
2. Gage R&R completed?

View Quote

Need environmental impact statement, a California-says-this-might-kill-you-with-cancer sticker, and whether this test was at STP.

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:40:05 PM EDT

[#24]

I own both - Have shot both...Still prefer the SSA-E.

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:41:19 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
Also, where on the trigger do you position the Gauge? I'm pretty sure minor changes to position can affect the reading.

View Quote

it does..

Posted: 7/28/2016 1:43:46 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
OP, I'm at work. Using my brain to find a conclusion to your data would make my head explode at the moment. Can you give me a TL;DR version?

View Quote

Using an Anderson-Darling Normality test and Two-Sample t test, it is impossible to determine a difference between the larue and G2S.

Posted: 7/28/2016 2:38:40 PM EDT

[#27]

Of note, the first stage on the B-G2S-E reads around 2lb 11oz to 2lb 15oz. I didn't measure the first stage weight on the MBT I measured above before I pulled it

On one of my other MBT's the first stage weight measured around 2lb 1oz to 2lb 4oz.

If you would rather have a lighter second stage while keeping the pull weight around the 4lb mark, the B-G2S-E seems like an excellent option.

Here is the data from 10 runs of my slightly older MBT:

	Old MBT
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	3	11.4	59.4
2	3	8.8	56.8
3	3	11.2	59.2
4	3	14.4	62.4
5	3	12.1	60.1
6	3	13.8	61.8
7	3	13.5	61.5
8	3	12.2	60.2
9	3	14.8	62.8
10	3	12.9	60.9
Average			60.51
ES	62.8	56.8	6
SD			1.690828

Posted: 7/28/2016 2:45:48 PM EDT

[#28]

I will continue to enjoy my SSA-E. What about Rock River ?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 7/28/2016 2:49:48 PM EDT

[#29]

one divorce, 2 bans and six time outs.

Posted: 7/28/2016 2:51:11 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:

I will continue to enjoy my SSA-E. What about Rock River ?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

View Quote

Nothing wrong with an SSA-E! I've only got an initial ten runs done on an RRA Varmint trigger.

	RRA Varmint
Pull#	Pounds	Ounces	Combined
1	4	8	72
2	4	3.8	67.8
3	4	5.9	69.9
4	4	3.1	67.1
5	4	2.6	66.6
6	4	2	66
7	4	1.4	65.4
8	4	1.8	65.8
9	4	2.3	66.3
10	4	0.8	64.8
Average			67.17
ES	72	64.8	7.2
SD			2.10383

Posted: 7/28/2016 5:03:04 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

Does the Lyman provide a spec on it's own accuracy? Do you know what the full scale reading of the Lyman is?

I have several different G triggers (SSA, SSA-E, SD-C, 3Gun) and a couple MBT's. I prefer the feel of the G triggers but the MBT is good to go as well.

View Quote

I'll have to look at the instruction sheet tonight to see if it goes into more detail.

I think Mark Larue has a thread about the problems with gauges with rollers on them.

These guys (and Lymans website) say plus or minus .1oz. http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/lyman-trigger-pull-gauge/

Posted: 7/29/2016 11:45:27 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:

interesting post is interesting. thanks

View Quote

At least someone liked it

Posted: 7/29/2016 11:48:36 AM EDT

[#33]

The Lyman gauge, even when its working properly requires 3 pulls and then averaging.

A simple knock off the work bench takes it out of CAL, that is why its use was suspended by the Navy.

Posted: 7/29/2016 1:30:21 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:

At least someone liked it

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

interesting post is interesting. thanks

At least someone liked it

I like charts. Do you have a gun with a standard trigger you can test the same way?

Posted: 7/29/2016 2:03:57 PM EDT

[#35]

You didn't test how likely them things are to go off and kill somebody.

Triggers are parts of guns, and guns are icky.

Posted: 7/29/2016 2:11:14 PM EDT

[#36]

Very cool!

I wonder if wear would change those numbers significantly.

Posted: 7/29/2016 2:48:03 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:

Very cool!

I wonder if wear would change those numbers significantly.

View Quote

I'm not sure. S7 that Geissele's and Larue's are made from is pretty tough stuff. I would think it would have some effect given enough rounds down range though.

Posted: 7/29/2016 2:56:41 PM EDT

[#38]

I want super precision

Posted: 7/29/2016 3:10:21 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:

I want super precision

View Quote

I've already got Super Precision

Posted: 7/29/2016 5:12:27 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:

Hey, it's worth at least as much as you paid for it

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

this is nearly as good as 3 shot groups to define performance

Hey, it's worth at least as much as you paid for it

I appreciate the OP's data set.

Many folks will implicitly understand how limited this data set is in it's current form.

Yet, IMO, it stands in stark contrast to the gun culture patrons rushing out to purchase items (triggers, scopes, mounts, slings) without ever having laid eyes on the items --or -- having any means by which to contrast one market offering against another.

Posted: 7/29/2016 5:29:05 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:

I like charts. Do you have a gun with a standard trigger you can test the same way?

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

interesting post is interesting. thanks

At least someone liked it

I like charts. Do you have a gun with a standard trigger you can test the same way?

I'm pretty sure I've got a couple standard triggers around here somewhere. Hopefully I'll have some time to run through a few more triggers over the weekend.

Posted: 7/29/2016 5:39:23 PM EDT

[#42]

I statistically have two of each. Two times Two means I like them at a minimum of 87% with a standard deviation of -0/+13%.

My maths say I will be buying more of each.

That wall of fuzzy maths numbers in the OP has no affect on my purchasing decision.