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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:13:21 AM EDT
[#1]
BP muzzleloaders would become firearms
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:13:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BP muzzeloaders would become firearms Yep |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:15:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Why does the ATF get to decide what a rifle is?
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:15:41 AM EDT
[#4]
Could have an impact on caseless ammo too.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:15:54 AM EDT
[#5]
FATF
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:16:21 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could have an impact on careless ammo too. None of my ammo cares. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:16:36 AM EDT
[#7]
So is it too late to make a run on BP rifles?
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:16:42 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
None of my ammo cares. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Could have an impact on careless ammo too. None of my ammo cares. Damn autocorrect 
Although, I think they are just syncing up the regulations with the actual statute: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:16:47 AM EDT
[#9]
Yep now they're going after blackpowder
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:17:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Fuck!
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:17:55 AM EDT
[#11]
No more mail order black powder guns.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:18:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FATF X a billion 
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:18:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Written to cover case-less and polymer cased ammo.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:18:25 AM EDT
[#14]
Maybe this will shake the fudd tree.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:18:44 AM EDT
[#15]
So does that mean a short barrel black powder gun is now an SBR?
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:19:30 AM EDT
[#16]
from the looks of it, muzzle loaders are the topic of discussion here.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:19:36 AM EDT
[#17]
The definitions are codified in the laws themselves.
The ATF can't change the language, only the interpretation. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:19:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Well there is that wave of muzzleloading gang crime.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:19:58 AM EDT
[#19]
Doesn't including black powder rifles and shotguns then close a "convicted felon with firearm" loophole too? Or is the wording on that different already.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:20:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Not caseless. Polymer cased. It's a lot closer to reality than you think. Currently a gun shooting polymer cased ammo doesn't meet the definition of a gun.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:20:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Transfers and background checks for muzzle loaders now?
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:20:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So does that mean a short barrel black powder gun is now an SBR? Seems that way |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:21:10 AM EDT
[#23]
Railguns
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:21:25 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:21:59 AM EDT
[#25]
It's also going after cannons and other fun stuff that doesn't use fixed case ammo.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:22:06 AM EDT
[#26]
FBATFE
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:22:10 AM EDT
[#27]
Fuck, fuckty fuck.
I hate the fucking ATF....fucking bunch of fucktard fuckbags. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:22:24 AM EDT
[#28]
"They hate us for our freedom"......so they simply legislate it away.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:22:26 AM EDT
[#29]
This is about polymer cases, not black powder guns.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:23:07 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep now they're going after blackpowder This is to take care of those like my friend in San Francisco who keeps a loaded cap and ball revolver in his pickup. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:24:21 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn autocorrect
Although, I think they are just syncing up the regulations with the actual statute: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Could have an impact on careless ammo too. None of my ammo cares. Damn autocorrect
Although, I think they are just syncing up the regulations with the actual statute: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 Looks like most black power / muzzle loaders would be covered under the "antique firearm" section of the law: (16) The term “antique firearm” means— (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica— (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:25:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does the ATF get to decide what a rifle is? Chevron Deference. They are the regulatory agency for firearms, therefore they get to decide what the regulations are and what the legal interpretation of the regulations will be. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:25:06 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's also going after cannons and other fun stuff that doesn't use fixed case ammo. Plastic PVC barrel and chamber. Explosive mixture of hair spray and air, potato for projectile = FIREARM. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:25:19 AM EDT
[#34]
can't have the commoner's shooting smokepoles without the necessary registration.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:26:48 AM EDT
[#35]
It could've very easily been amended to "fixed metallic, plastic, or polymer cartridge" if polymer cases were the concern, instead of the overly broad verbiage they went with
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:29:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
BP muzzeloaders would become firearms Yep My thoughts as well. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:29:44 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It could've very easily been amended to "fixed metallic, plastic, or polymer cartridge" if polymer cases were the concern, instead of the overly broad verbiage they went with Very well may have started there, but then got expanded to be a catch-all They could have very easily worded it in a way that covered non-metallic cased cartridges yet left alone black powder weapons. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:30:33 AM EDT
[#38]
Is gunpowder considered and explosive legally?
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:32:03 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not caseless. Polymer cased. It's a lot closer to reality than you think. Currently a gun shooting polymer cased ammo doesn't meet the definition of a gun. I've still got a couple boxes of PCP .308. Does that mean my .308 isn't a rifle when I actually pull the trigger on that stuff? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:32:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Nothing is going to happen to BP shit. They are under a whole separate category known as "antique firearms." They aren't even touched by these subcategories. We need to stop over-reacting to shit like this and focus on important topics.
The legal definition of FIREARM isn't changing. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:35:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why does the ATF get to decide what a rifle is? Because Congress has never reigned them in. Congress can make a law that defines what a firearm is and the ATF wouldn't be able to do anything about it. When enough people complain Congress will start looking into the issue. That works for and against us. Time to contact your legislators. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:35:37 AM EDT
[#42]
They are probably worried about caseless or nonmetallic cartridges, but it does look like that would include muzzle loaders.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:36:24 AM EDT
[#43]
Smokeless powder isn't an explosive, it's an accelerant, undergoing deflagration and not detonation.
Wouldn't that be a fun defense? "No, Mr ATF, this isn't a rifle, as there is no explosive." |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:40:17 AM EDT
[#44]
This also removes the "fixed ammunition" verbage.
If this is correct, the can cannon is now a short barreled shotgun no matter how x products changes it short of an 18" barrel. Among a whole pile of other problems. I still don't understand how the ATF can arbitrarily change definitions that are codified in law, not just opinion letters. It is spelled out in black and white. 
ETA: Ok after reading the BATFE memo, what they are doing is actually changing procedure based on the changes in law that were made in a 1999 bill that was passed and signed into law. So this has been the law of the land since 1999? What a mess. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:41:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Gangs are tearing up the cities with muzzleloaders. Busloads of kids killed by grapeshot... Uncased ammo is a plague on our society.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:43:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gangs are tearing up the cities with muzzleloaders. Busloads of kids killed by grapeshot... Uncased ammo is a plague on our society. "pass the powder horn homie, I'm about to smoke these fools" said no gang member ever |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:44:39 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does the ATF get to decide what a rifle is? Because they say so |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:45:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems that way Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So does that mean a short barrel black powder gun is now an SBR? Seems that way SBS, or are most of them rifled? I don't know much about BP. |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:48:07 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does the ATF get to decide what a rifle is? the 'do whatever the hell they want and get away with it' agency |
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:49:55 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Written to cover case-less and polymer cased ammo. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile And t-shirt cannons, potato guns, nail guns, dummy launcers and everything else fun that we are still allowed freedom to enjoy. |
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