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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:03:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How would that avoid double and even tripple taxation on some items. You buy a house...taxed Builder builds house...taxed on materials And so on down the line... If taxes are paid every time an item changes hands, you pay taxes over and over on the same item. Picture one nail used on that house. How many times it is taxed up to where the final owner gets it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? While I disagree with your premise. A straight flat percentage would be the fairest we are likely to get. Since the poor pay no taxes and the more money you make the bigger percentage you pay...... That being said I think the fairest option would be to have a flat tax on purchases and not income. Then anyone who saves their money is not penalized. Then you if purchase an economy car you pay a flat 10 percent or if someone wants to buy a multi million dollar yacht they pay a flat 10 percent. How would that avoid double and even tripple taxation on some items. You buy a house...taxed Builder builds house...taxed on materials And so on down the line... If taxes are paid every time an item changes hands, you pay taxes over and over on the same item. Picture one nail used on that house. How many times it is taxed up to where the final owner gets it? I read the book several years back and I think that it could work easily and well. I think the overall plan is unnecessarily burdensome with the payments for living expenses and the higher rate that it necessitates. Having said that I would support it in its current form with no reservations. It's worth reading about so that you can debunk if you choose. ETA: http://fairtax.org |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:04:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Funny how you guys fall for that bullshit statistic that says the rich pays 90% of Federal income tax.
I can't remember the exact numbers but if you confiscate all of the wealth from the top 10% it would only run the government for something like 6 months. The middle class are the ones floating this government, not the rich. The only thing we can't do as individuals is give millions of dollars to political superpacs. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:04:46 AM EDT
[#3]
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That's what we'll have, eventually. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The problem is they want both a consumption tax and an income tax... That's what we'll have, eventually. We already have both. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:07:46 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. It was unconstitutional to begin with anyway. A consumption tax (fair tax) would be the way to go. For one, it's largely voluntary. You don't wanna pay tax on your food? Grow your own. You don't wanna pay tax to build a home? Harvest your own lumber. Etc. In addition, a fair tax gets paid by everyone. Whores, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, tourists, etc. You can't cheat the fair tax. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Abolish the income tax. This. It was unconstitutional to begin with anyway. A consumption tax (fair tax) would be the way to go. For one, it's largely voluntary. You don't wanna pay tax on your food? Grow your own. You don't wanna pay tax to build a home? Harvest your own lumber. Etc. In addition, a fair tax gets paid by everyone. Whores, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, tourists, etc. You can't cheat the fair tax. Actually, the income tax was excruciatingly constitutional. They passed an amendment to the constitution, it sucks, but we should hold the government to that standard on a lot things. There would be a great number less of freedom stealing laws if that were the standard rather than "pass it and let them sue to stop us." |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:09:03 AM EDT
[#5]
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This is the point I was getting to make that went right over a lot of people's heads Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Good question. Imagine this: we have a cost of government. We divide that cost by the number of eligible taxpayers (assume all able adults age 18 to 60 - this is an illustration - don't get stuck on the numbers). That is the individual tax burden per taxpayer, no percentage required, and theoretically more "fair" than a percentage. This is the point I was getting to make that went right over a lot of people's heads And what happens to those who earn less than that flat amount? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:09:54 AM EDT
[#6]
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Actually, the income tax was excruciatingly constitutional. They passed an amendment to the constitution, it sucks, but we should hold the government to that standard on a lot things. There would be a great number less of freedom stealing laws if that were the standard rather than "pass it and let them sue to stop us." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Abolish the income tax. This. It was unconstitutional to begin with anyway. A consumption tax (fair tax) would be the way to go. For one, it's largely voluntary. You don't wanna pay tax on your food? Grow your own. You don't wanna pay tax to build a home? Harvest your own lumber. Etc. In addition, a fair tax gets paid by everyone. Whores, drug dealers, illegal immigrants, tourists, etc. You can't cheat the fair tax. Actually, the income tax was excruciatingly constitutional. They passed an amendment to the constitution, it sucks, but we should hold the government to that standard on a lot things. There would be a great number less of freedom stealing laws if that were the standard rather than "pass it and let them sue to stop us." There are a lot of people on this site who have no idea what "constitutional" actually means. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:10:52 AM EDT
[#7]
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Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? especially when the people paying $1000 are more likely to cost government services much greater than the 10k guy. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:11:45 AM EDT
[#8]
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A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. This |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:16:19 AM EDT
[#9]
Especially when it is used by the press to say things like the CEO's secretary pays more tax than he does. It's all bullshit.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:17:09 AM EDT
[#10]
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Not my problem.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm sure students working part time would love that too. I'f the tax was only $1,500/yr, someone making 7.50 an hour would have to work 40 hrs a week for 5 weeks just to pay taxes. Not my problem.... But they are paying a higher percentage than someone that makes more money - how is that fair? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:20:06 AM EDT
[#11]
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This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Consumption tax is what you are looking for. This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. Once you remove the taxes the companies that make the goods and sell the goods pay, it will not be too bad. Plus everyones take home pay will be a lot higher. In the end it supposed to even out. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:20:39 AM EDT
[#12]
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Not my problem.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm sure students working part time would love that too. I'f the tax was only $1,500/yr, someone making 7.50 an hour would have to work 40 hrs a week for 5 weeks just to pay taxes. Not my problem.... Those people would send you to a gulag. It obviously is your problem and your tax philosophy is blatantly flawed. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:21:33 AM EDT
[#13]
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Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? Why should one person get paid more than another? If we are being 'fair' about it then we need to level income too, right? Everybody makes a different amount of money. A percentage based tax rate puts the same proportional hurt on everyone. The dollar amount is irrelevant |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:25:31 AM EDT
[#14]
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This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Consumption tax is what you are looking for. This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. But you are ignoring the elimination of the other taxes, which puts more money into the economy. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:32:30 AM EDT
[#15]
nope. tax on income is bullshit.
consumption tax is only fair tax. tax only on new items. no food or land. watch business grow as employeer portion on tax is removed, prices of products fall since the tax burdon is shifted from corporate and income to point of sale. tie congress spending to percentage of GDP and allow no more. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:35:49 AM EDT
[#16]
I believe in a flat sales tax, fresh foods and medications excluded. That way you capture some of the black market money and the working poor who spend a large portion of their money on food are not hit add hard.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:38:16 AM EDT
[#17]
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nope. tax on income is bullshit. consumption tax is only fair tax. tax only on new items. no food or land. watch business grow as employeer portion on tax is removed, prices of products fall since the tax burdon is shifted from corporate and income to point of sale. tie congress spending to percentage of GDP and allow no more. That is definitely needed. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:44:51 AM EDT
[#18]
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I think everyone should have skin in the game and those that don't...why are they allowed to vote? Some old customs are good customs, others not so much. Flat tax is so much more fair than a percentage based progressive tax it's not even in the same ballpark. This. I'll go further and say I think a person should get additional votes based on how much tax they pay. Something like: 1 + log(taxes paid/median taxes paid) in all jurisdictions where you pay taxes. Catch would be you get the initial 1 vote in only the jurisdiction you live in as your stated permanent residence. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:44:56 AM EDT
[#19]
yes, how could it not be fair
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:47:12 AM EDT
[#20]
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But you are ignoring the elimination of the other taxes, which puts more money into the economy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Consumption tax is what you are looking for. This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. But you are ignoring the elimination of the other taxes, which puts more money into the economy. The first problem with this line of thought is that a large percentage of Americans would see an increase in the overall cost of living. The other, bigger problem is that a consumption tax penalizes consumers. Such taxes will discourage people from buying things and have a massive impact on the economy. I'd guess the automotive, furniture, and tech industries would be hit the hardest. Are you ready to see another round of bankruptcies for the Big 3? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:48:26 AM EDT
[#21]
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Maybe fair but it's not realistic. Currently, the average middle class family works till the middle of April to pay their share of the taxes. A flat tax would wipe out the middle class and makes slaves of the poor. If the rich don't like paying percentage tax then they need to quit giving millions of dollars to the party elites. The wealthy don't pay income taxes. They pay lower rate investment and capitol gains taxes. The upper middle class and lower upper class gets hosed to subsidized the feed bill and medical care for the ultra wealthy's low wage employees. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:01:56 AM EDT
[#22]
If we are all equal then we all should pay the same.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:10:32 AM EDT
[#23]
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I'm sure students working part time would love that too. I'f the tax was only $1,500/yr, someone making 7.50 an hour would have to work 40 hrs a week for 5 weeks just to pay taxes. Boo fucking hoo. If they don't want to work five weeks to be protected by our nuclear equipped military 52 weeks a year they can fucking create or otherwise find their own country. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:16:04 AM EDT
[#24]
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Why not just a flat amount? If we are both paying the government to make a road why should I pay $20 and you $200? you're trolling right? some people dont make but $12,000/yr (like some seniors on SS). so it's right to take $10,000 of that to cover their tax liability while taking $10,000 from me when I make over $100,000 ? percentage of consumption is the only way to fairly tax a people who's economic means vary as much as it does in the united states. BUT, I think it should be more like 13-15% (8% federal / 5%-7% state - no county/city) |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:41:32 AM EDT
[#25]
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Good question. Imagine this: we have a cost of government. We divide that cost by the number of eligible taxpayers (assume all able adults age 18 to 60 - this is an illustration - don't get stuck on the numbers). That is the individual tax burden per taxpayer, no percentage required, and theoretically more "fair" than a percentage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Good question. Imagine this: we have a cost of government. We divide that cost by the number of eligible taxpayers (assume all able adults age 18 to 60 - this is an illustration - don't get stuck on the numbers). That is the individual tax burden per taxpayer, no percentage required, and theoretically more "fair" than a percentage. Everyone gets the same bill at the end of the year. Voting habits would change real quick |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:54:35 AM EDT
[#26]
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So the guy who makes $10,000 should pay $1 to make it more fair? You have to be a Democrat. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? So the guy who makes $10,000 should pay $1 to make it more fair? You have to be a Democrat. You got it backwards... They both sould pay the same amount... Where do you guys come up with these responses. It is not that hard... |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:55:47 AM EDT
[#27]
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If you don't believe a flat tax is fair, it's obvious you flunked basic math in grade school. A true flat tax is fair a flat tax based on percentage centage is not.... But go on insult me more... |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:57:57 AM EDT
[#28]
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Funny how you guys fall for that bullshit statistic that says the rich pays 90% of Federal income tax. I can't remember the exact numbers but if you confiscate all of the wealth from the top 10% it would only run the government for something like 6 months. The middle class are the ones floating this government, not the rich. The only thing we can't do as individuals is give millions of dollars to political superpacs. interesting that you dismiss our statistic for one of your own. the FACTS are easy to see, THERE ARE ACTUAL WEBSITES with the facts, so please stop dismissing ours and start reading. the top 1% pays 38% of all taxes the top 10% pays 90% of all taxes |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:59:33 AM EDT
[#29]
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At $2k per adult (based on 2013 numbers) that would leave you short $1,115,058,360,000 short of the 2013 income tax number. In order for a flat amount to equal the income taxes collected in 2013 the set amount would be $6,598.73 per adult in the US. For someone earning $30k it would be 22% of their income For someone earning $60k it would be 11% of their income For someone earning $120k it would be 5.4% of their income etc. What you are suggesting is a regressive tax, which is a perfectly legitimate position, but one which I think would get very little widespread support. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think percentage is fair. 10% or what ever, is fair. It's still 10%. My way would work like this. Under poverty level 5% Above poverty level 10% Above a million 15% Above a Billion 20% Everyone has some skin in the game. I would rather it be set at say $2000.00 for all adults over the age of 18.... Or rather a consumption tax.... At $2k per adult (based on 2013 numbers) that would leave you short $1,115,058,360,000 short of the 2013 income tax number. In order for a flat amount to equal the income taxes collected in 2013 the set amount would be $6,598.73 per adult in the US. For someone earning $30k it would be 22% of their income For someone earning $60k it would be 11% of their income For someone earning $120k it would be 5.4% of their income etc. What you are suggesting is a regressive tax, which is a perfectly legitimate position, but one which I think would get very little widespread support. It was supposed to be $12000 I'm on a tablet and the 1 didn't register.. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:00:59 PM EDT
[#30]
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A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. That's an argument in semantics you knew what I was saying... |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:02:02 PM EDT
[#31]
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And what happens to those who earn less than that flat amount? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Good question. Imagine this: we have a cost of government. We divide that cost by the number of eligible taxpayers (assume all able adults age 18 to 60 - this is an illustration - don't get stuck on the numbers). That is the individual tax burden per taxpayer, no percentage required, and theoretically more "fair" than a percentage. This is the point I was getting to make that went right over a lot of people's heads And what happens to those who earn less than that flat amount? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Not my problem? This is a philosophical discussion nothing more. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:02:31 PM EDT
[#32]
"Fair" is a relative term here.
It is certainly more fair than what we have now... with higher income earners having their taxes bumped up twice (in rate and in amount they make) I would like to see a fixed tax rate- decided by congress every year, right before election time. No earned income crap (didn't I just do this?) |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:03:40 PM EDT
[#33]
It would certainly be fair to the big business owners and millionaires who pay 90% of the tax now and unfair to those at the lower income scale who pay little or no tax.
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:07:20 PM EDT
[#34]
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It would certainly be fair to the big business owners and millionaires who pay 90% of the tax now and unfair to those at the lower income scale who pay little or no tax. I don't think you have even the most basic understanding of the word "fair." |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:09:55 PM EDT
[#35]
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? Well.. You Net $9000 while the other still nets 10x as much. Not that it's fair, but that's still a pretty significant difference. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:25:49 PM EDT
[#36]
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That's an argument in semantics you knew what I was saying... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. That's an argument in semantics you knew what I was saying... Would someone with $0 income (like a stay at home parent) owe the flat tax amount in your system? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:26:43 PM EDT
[#37]
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The first problem with this line of thought is that a large percentage of Americans would see an increase in the overall cost of living. The other, bigger problem is that a consumption tax penalizes consumers. Such taxes will discourage people from buying things and have a massive impact on the economy. I'd guess the automotive, furniture, and tech industries would be hit the hardest. Are you ready to see another round of bankruptcies for the Big 3? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Consumption tax is what you are looking for. This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. But you are ignoring the elimination of the other taxes, which puts more money into the economy. The first problem with this line of thought is that a large percentage of Americans would see an increase in the overall cost of living. The other, bigger problem is that a consumption tax penalizes consumers. Such taxes will discourage people from buying things and have a massive impact on the economy. I'd guess the automotive, furniture, and tech industries would be hit the hardest. Are you ready to see another round of bankruptcies for the Big 3? The cost of goods pre-tax would go down thanks to no corporate taxes, it's not the same as a VAT tax that adds up all from start to finish. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:31:02 PM EDT
[#38]
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This Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. This Where do they get the money? From your income. Hence it is an income tax. They are not getting it from sales (sales tax). They are not getting it from gasoline (gas tax). |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:33:58 PM EDT
[#39]
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Where do they get the money? From your income. Hence it is an income tax. They are not getting it from sales (sales tax). They are not getting it from gasoline (gas tax). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. This Where do they get the money? From your income. Hence it is an income tax. They are not getting it from sales (sales tax). They are not getting it from gasoline (gas tax). Not necessarily. Do people with no income owe the amount or not? ETA - and just because some people pay with it from their income does not make it an income tax |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:34:49 PM EDT
[#40]
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Maybe fair but it's not realistic. Currently, the average middle class family works till the middle of April to pay their share of the taxes. A flat tax would wipe out the middle class and makes slaves of the poor. If the rich don't like paying percentage tax then they need to quit giving millions of dollars to the party elites. The average middle class family pays 29% right now. Fair tax spreads the burden out across the classes and it's a flat percentage of what's earned, no exemptions. Explain how that would destroy the middle class because your math isnt adding up? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:37:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is a flat percentage that is levied equally against everyone without exemptions not fair? Don't go full retard OP. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:38:58 PM EDT
[#42]
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This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Consumption tax is what you are looking for. This is where I end up as well, but its hard to ignore the potential for damage to the economy by raising the cost of goods by 20%. Your goods go down in face value because there are no longer corporate taxation built into their cost, so basically the back end tax is mitigated by the front end savings. You won't get a 20%-23% consumption tax alone though because....polichickens. They want their graduated income tax plus a "value added tax" of 18%. 
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:39:18 PM EDT
[#43]
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Why not just a flat amount? If we are both paying the government to make a road why should I pay $20 and you $200? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Percentage, everyone pays the same percentage. Percentages are the ultimate in fair when talking about wages of conceivably infinite variations. If everyone pays 20% of whatever pot of money in the same category ...... then they equally lose 20% of that money. If it is a fixed flat sum of $, then people who have vastly more than that pay an effective lower percentage of the total amount of money in that category. People who have less available wealth will pay a higher percentage of the available money in that category. The only way to have things be fair/equal is to do it on a percentage. Why not just a flat amount? If we are both paying the government to make a road why should I pay $20 and you $200? Going with your $20 vs $200 example. The person paying $200, under a flat tax, is clearly making ten times as much money as the person who pays $20. One could argue the person paying $200 is paying because he's clearly engaged in much more economic activity, which implies greater use of public infrastructure (to use a large and obvious example, a power plant with ten boilers is going to consume a lot more coal, and ship in a lot more coal on public roads or other transportation systems, than a power plant with one boiler). It would make sense that those who engage in greater levels of economic activity, which implies greater use of the infrastructure, pay more tax in terms of actual dollars, but the same amount in terms of percentage. In this way, people and organizations who use the public infrastructure at a greater level (and thus are putting more wear and tear on that infrastructure) are paying for what they use. If you go with a flat dollar amount, there will be levels where lower class people are paying for far more than they actually use; at the other end, you will have people paying for far less than they actually use, shifting some of that burden to lower income levels. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:44:02 PM EDT
[#44]
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is that NOT fair in your mind? Both people in that scenario are paying the exact same amount from each dollar they make. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:49:10 PM EDT
[#45]
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What if someone makes less than $1000 in a year? Should they pay 150% tax rate? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is giving 10% not equal? Because $10000 does not equal $1000 Why should one guy have to pay more than the next form the exact same thing? What if someone makes less than $1000 in a year? Should they pay 150% tax rate? Under a 10% flat tax rate they are paying less than $100. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:51:57 PM EDT
[#46]
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My premise is the same as yours flat tax percentage on consumption. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? While I disagree with your premise. A straight flat percentage would be the fairest we are likely to get. Since the poor pay no taxes and the more money you make the bigger percentage you pay...... That being said I think the fairest option would be to have a flat tax on purchases and not income. Then anyone who saves their money is not penalized. Then you if purchase an economy car you pay a flat 10 percent or if someone wants to buy a multi million dollar yacht they pay a flat 10 percent. My premise is the same as yours flat tax percentage on consumption. A consumption tax is just another progressive income tax in disguise. As are personal property taxes, sales taxes, and damn near any other tax you can think of. It's all an attempt to redistribute wealth - forcing more of the burden onto the shoulders of those who have worked hard to be successful. Should be a flat fee, same for every adult, with the elderly exempt at some point... all of them. Your share of the cost of operating government should have no ties whatsoever to your income level. If you can't pay it, you work off what you owe at a set rate painting stripes on the interstate or something. ETA: not progressive |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:53:27 PM EDT
[#47]
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A lot of "conservatives" here would stroke out if that actually happened. lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No income tax, no consumption tax, no capital gains tax. Everyone pays the same dollar amount. I fucking guarantee government would be a fraction of the size it is today. A lot of "conservatives" here would stroke out if that actually happened. lol Only because they would lose the crony part of capitalism on the other side of the coin the P. T. Barnums of the world would have a plethora of undereducated consumers to dupe and make a killing. True capitalism is not for those with a weak stomach, caveat emptor. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:54:19 PM EDT
[#48]
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Would someone with $0 income (like a stay at home parent) owe the flat tax amount in your system? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? A flat dollar amount would not be an income tax, since it doesn't use income to figure the amount of an individual's tax liability. It would be more appropriate to call it a "citizen tax" or something similar. Therefore, the "fairest" income tax is one based on a flat percentage rate. That's an argument in semantics you knew what I was saying... Would someone with $0 income (like a stay at home parent) owe the flat tax amount in your system? I don't have a system or an answer to solve our deficit... but for the sake of argument the answer is "YES" now what the punishment would or should be is a whole different thread as it becomes to easy to make a slave class by just raising the fixed amount of the tax higher and higher till either their is a revolution or everyone is a slave. As I have said multiple times in this thread this is a philosophical question not an argument for a new or better system. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:56:23 PM EDT
[#49]
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How is a flat percentage that is levied equally against everyone without exemptions not fair? Don't go full retard OP. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or do you think it should be a flat rate dollar amount? When speaking to income tax not sales tax. I have never liked percentage based taxes.. How is it fair if the tax is 10% and I male $10000 a year and only pay $1000 yet you make $100000 and pay $10000 in taxes? How is that not bullshit in your mind? How is a flat percentage that is levied equally against everyone without exemptions not fair? Don't go full retard OP. its not fair because the taxes get you lets say.. military roads public education police fire department etc. why should one guy pay $10,000.00 a year for those services while the next guy pays $1,000.00 for the same services. that's how a flat tax based on a percentage is not fair... a fixed amount would be more fair. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:58:54 PM EDT
[#50]
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The average middle class family pays 29% right now. Fair tax spreads the burden out across the classes and it's a flat percentage of what's earned, no exemptions. Explain how that would destroy the middle class because your math isnt adding up? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Maybe fair but it's not realistic. Currently, the average middle class family works till the middle of April to pay their share of the taxes. A flat tax would wipe out the middle class and makes slaves of the poor. If the rich don't like paying percentage tax then they need to quit giving millions of dollars to the party elites. The average middle class family pays 29% right now. Fair tax spreads the burden out across the classes and it's a flat percentage of what's earned, no exemptions. Explain how that would destroy the middle class because your math isnt adding up? 29% federal income tax? I'm mostly here for the firearm knowledge so these things are over my head. But it seems to me if the middle class and poor were paying the same Fed income tax it would be a huge percentage. New Entitlements alone would be unsustainable not to mention the new state taxes that would come with a new tax system. One thing for sure, democrat or republican neither give a rats ass about easing the tax burden on the middle class. Curious though everyone focuses on federal income tax but how much money does the Feds take from the states and seems like everything has a federal fee attached. I always figured federal income tax was used to take money from one class to give to the other. |
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