Aristotle said democracy turns into socialism, because the poor outnumber the rich. More and more poor, non-working class with vote for leaders that will give them free stuff. The rich and working/productive class will carry the burden by having their taxes increased more and more.

voting for the Democrat nominee and not voting at all (bc you don't like the Republican nominee), will result in the same out come. I do not want to pay more taxes, nor lose more of my 2nd Amendment rights.

we failed last election to unite under Romney, and allowed NObama another 4 years in office. will we allow Hillary/Bernie to win the White House this election?

Aristotle was right and yes, we are becoming socialist, then the collapse.

Capitalism -> Socialism -> Communism -> Collapse

Wash rinse repeat.

I don't think we'll ever "lose" our 2A......



Because someday, when they push too far.....some cranky old man will decide he's had enough. With nothing to lose.


Then again, maybe not.

I doubt that Aristotle used the word Socialism...

It's going to have to take a bunch of cranky old men.

Considering Aristotle preceded the inventors of Socialism, Marx & Engels, by over 2,000 years, I'm going to need a cite and quote.

I believe you are referencing Alexander Fraser Tytler's commentary on the decline of the Athenian Republic. (Although this is generally disputed as being from someone else, possible Toqueville)

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
Alexis de Tocqueville

It's not like this is an original idea.

If de Tocqueville hadn't pointed it out, I wonder if our congressidiots would have figured that out on their own?

This election is different.

There is almost civil war or "mutiny" happening within the Republican Party.  Trump is talking about the important issues.  The country club Republican leadership cannot abide that because it shows them up as the assholes they are.

Good thing America is a Representative Republic instead of a democracy.  It’s like somebody had a plan…

I had not saved any economic quotes from him yet, but did find this on my PC

“The three aims of the tyrant are, one, the humiliation of his subjects; he knows that a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody; two, the creation of mistrust among them; for a tyrant is not to be overthrown until men begin to have confidence in one another – and this is the reason why tyrants are at war with the good; they are under the idea that their power is endangered by them, not only because they will not be ruled despotically, but also because they are too loyal to one another and to other men, and do not inform against one another or against other men – three, the tyrant desires that all his subjects shall be incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny if they are powerless.”

- Aristotle

Sounds a lot like the "Conservatives" on this website that put down anyone trying to stand up for something, even if poorly executed.  As if American liberty ever had perfect people supporting it.

I'm curious how you define "conservatives" and how you define "trying to stand up for something."

SUCK MAH BALLS, ESTABLISHMENT HELLSPAWN!

mob rule, gimme gimme..

Is this repost from the early 30s?

Romney was intended to lose.  The Republicans intended to let BHO win so that he could continue their path at a faster pace than they could on their own.  They are in no way unhappy with the direction that the country is heading.  Why else would they be fighting Trump so hard.

Maybe that's why the founding fathers only gave property owners the right to vote.   Sure it started out white men mostly, because they were the only ones that owned property but many states allowed men, women and freed slaves to vote if they owned property.

Take God and Religon out of the .gov. And you are left with shit.

While it may have made sense then, a property requirement would be retarded now.  Make it a requirement to have a net payment of taxes over the previous year (thus preventing those who only collect government payments from voting) to be able to vote.  I feel that would be a good modern equivalent given the differences in tax types we have now.

Would you eliminate home owners on Social Security from voting?

If you are not footing the bill you should not get a say in how it is spent. Net payment is the requirement, not zero receiving of benefits.

How would you calculate that. If I payed into Social security INSURANCE my whole life? I would hope the money I paid in would grow in value.

 

So "footing the bill" for 50 years and investing wisely counts for nothing if I do not pay more in taxes than I receive in social security.

Gotcha!

Social Security is a ponzi scheme.  You paid into nothing as your money was sent out to the people drawing from it.  If your entire retirement income consists of government welfare (thats what Social Security is, deal with it) then no... you get what those paying the taxes to support you say you get.

50 years of income taxes also counts for nothing I see.

Why should you have the right to vote yourself money that isn't yours?  Now, given you have investments (and most likely other forms of retirement income) your income taxes will probably be greater than your SSI check.  If the tax check is more than what you get... you vote, otherwise shut up and deal with what those paying your checks decide.

Oh for fucks sake fine... make it a LIFETIME NET tax.  That make you happy?  So long as LIFETIME wise you have paid in more than you get, you vote.  Tough shit about inflation though... perhaps we shouldn't consider that a positive economic feature like current government policy does.

Eliminate social security.

Problem solved.

I guess that participaing in social security is a choice that you have made.

Income taxes aren't a choice either.  Unless you work under the table (gasp, which lets you avoid SS taxes too)... oh wait, you don't then get credit for that income later when drawing SS now then do you.

The powers that be do everything they can to push the middle class into the lower class, once we're all poor (or a few make it to being rich), its game on for any new plan.

Aristotle 384–322 BC

Henri de Saint-Simon 1760 - 1825 AD

Unforunately, the number of years that you have to work in order to collect SS are pitifully few.   If you want to game the system, only work under SS for the last few years (I don't remember how pitifully few) prior to your age of retirement and collect the same as someone who has "contributed" their whole working life.

I agree - trash social security.

I read this in Cartman's voice and it made me laugh far harder than it should have

Did he say anything about elites having a disproportionate amount of influence, corrupting and exploiting politics for their own personal gain and subverting the will of the people?

Hell lets add that it has to be in the private sector. Why should gov employees get to vote themselves a raise
 

Ok folks if you're serious about gaining understanding then seek this book. It's the recipe that is being followed in guiding America down a dark path.

Between Two Ages: America's Role in the Technetronic Era by Zbigniew K. Brzezinski. Communism/Socialist are the next to last stage before Technocracy comes into play. Brzezinski basically rehashed the Technocracy movement of the 1930s. Brzezinski is understood to be Obama's Handler. The book is available for PDF download. Just have your antivirus up to date as a precaution. Check your local library as well.

Ha...he was married to Jackie Kennedy....

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting for "what's for dinner?".

What makes you think an establishment Republican would be any better than a dem?

That's a serious question. How have they managed to convince you they are any better?

From my perspective, the Republican establishment hacks the party typically nominates have been as bad for this country and our economy as the dems.

Here is a perfect example. He bailed out banks and big corporations, he expanded medicare, he spent more than any president before him. And he was............George W Bush.

The truth is government gets bigger and more costly, our debt skyrockets, and our freedoms continue to disappear regardless of which party gets the office.

The trick is to get a real conservative nominated in the R party. Something that hasn't happened in at least a generation. It's the only chance at making any real change for the better. If we just settle for whatever shit bag establishment hack the R party trys to cram down our throats just because they are supposedly the lesser of two evils we will continue to watch the country crumble. No thanks.

The VAST majority of people who draw SS paid into it for many, many years. Yes you can find examples of people who abuse the system, but you can't judge something's worth the small percentage who abuse it. That sounds like the anti-gunner argument (get rid of them all since some use them for violence.)

Some of you need to go read up on how the US worked before SS. Maybe you love your nana and would take care of her. But have you never met an elderly person, maybe a neighbor, who literally had no one? Because there would be millions of elderly homeless/dead people without SS. Some of them now from the greatest generation who worked in the factories during WWII, who stayed up praying for sons, fathers, and brothers to return.

The REASON why Sanders and "socialism" (which isn't really socialism. Why do we keep using that word? They are promoting social programs.) are swinging back into favor is a natural thing because they system is currently fucked and the little guy can no longer buy into the American dream that if they work hard they will make it. A lot of the reforms being called for are not hand outs, but leveling the playing field.

There are two areas that I notice this and think some of their complaints are valid. The first being college education. I worked through school, got some scholarships, and did the rest with loans. Loans are helpful, though I am still paying on them due to some lean years putting it off. But looking at the costs of college, they way out paced the average person's ability to pay on their own. My dad worked through college and was able to pay his whole education just through his low wage job. I worked through college but was unable to pay for all of my college, but made up for it in loans. Looking now at even the cost of state school where I went, unless you have the privilege of parents helping you, or scored super high on your ACT/SATs, you are going to have to go into debt to get an education. The cost of education has out paced our ability to pay. Couple this with a weak economy, kids coming out of college, even those with non-liberal arts degrees, are having trouble getting good jobs. The job market is fierce out there still, no mater what Obama keep saying the numbers are. There are many reasons for this, but when you can no longer "work hard and make it" people are going to call for things to become more equal. And they have a point, IMHO.

Second, and probably the most important thing, is the shrinking middle class and the huge wealth gap. Every play Monopoly and just get stomped? You never have enough money to buy even the most basic of property, and the other guy has enough to buy everything you land on, plus his. And half your turns you end up owing HIM money? That is a decent metaphor with the issue here. People in America like the rich because we all hope to attain the status some day. The problem with putting them on pedestal and making them false gods. So many people in America are not rich from their hard work or smarts or even luck. They were born that way. And all of them use every loop hole and slick trick to stay that way. In other words, they are rarely playing on a level field, they are manipulating the system and screwing YOU. Trump is a great example of this. Jesus Christ, just read a basic bio on the guy. He isn't a brilliant business man. One could argue someone like Mark Cuban is a pretty smart business man, but Trump would be a used car sales man driving a 5 year old BMW if he didn't have his daddy's wealth and connections to start him off and help keep him afloat as he fucked shit up over and over.

But anyway, the rich aren't who make America great. The Middle Class is. One of the largest times of prosperity, which had a huge jump start from the boom post WWII, saw the rise of the middle class. You know what also helped that rise? Unions, because with out unions many of those manufacturing jobs and other post-war jobs wouldn't have paid a wage that would have allowed the rise of the middle class. But if you look at the stats now, the middle class is disappearing. The top top rich are eclipsing us that he bar graphs look like a cartoon. This isn't ok. They aren't getting richer and richer just by doing more and better business, they are working the system to get ahead. God forbid a 70 year old women feel entitled so some SS, but I don't hear the same outcry about corporate welfare, or how many tax loop holes there are for special interests.

Regan's "trickle down" economics didn't work. It was a bullshit idea to begin with. Now I am sure right now half of you are labeling me a commie pinko liberal. And I am not. But I am a realist. I love capitalism, but capitalism ONLY works long term with LIMITS in place. Because with out LIMITS you will find people use it as a tool to screw the little guy over. Don't believe me? Read a fucking book. Why do we have an FDA? Because people were selling snake oil and cocaine laced cough medicine. Why do we have the FDIC? Because the banking crises in the 20s destroyed our faith in banks. And capitalism can't function with out banks. Why do we have the SEC? To police fraud in the financial market. Even with these checks and balances in place we still have shit like the retarded 2008 bubble that burst, which was completely avoidable, it was greedy companies taking advantage of people's dreams to own a home, preying on weakness and their optimism that they would be able to afford payments in the future - because if we work hard in America, we all will make it - right? I still can't believe payday loans is a thing.  It is legalized loan sharking, and efforts to crack down on them have the snakes just slithering to new corners with new tricks.

Anyway - I feel some of you think that America's poor comprise of mainly some black fat chick with 2 kids on welfare, doesn't work, smoking weed all day. That isn't reality, so you need to get that cartoonish iimage out of you're head. There are about as many whites on welfare as blacks. Less than half as many are those lazy hispanics. Over half of the people on welfare HAVE JOBS. The problem is the cost of living has outpaced our ability to pay for it.

They system is broken. We need to fix it or the calls for government intervention is going to be louder. And you can't look too far down on people who are calling for this. That 40 hour work week, with over time if you work more? That's thanks to movements like this. Our current relatively cushy labor laws we all enjoy as "normal" now - the ones we still bitch about sucking -  was seen as communist propaganda 80+ years ago. You really don't want a return to the good ol' days.

The constitution is flawed in that it doesn't forbid the government from giving people money.

Thanks for saving me the time to find that. It was my first thought.

Your error is in thinking you can stop the decline.

Countries age the same as people. The faster you live, the faster you die.

 
Yeah, the only really smart ancient guy I remember not liking Democracy was Plato. But I don't think it was because he was against "socialism".