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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:32:42 PM EDT
[#1]
It got down to 0 here...geothermal still plugging away
Mitsubishi makes some air to air that go down pretty damn low though |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:34:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to do better research. There are better heat pumps now a days that are more efficient with colder temps You shouldn't rely on them as primary heat sources. Unless your climate allows you to. My cold climate mini-split ductless heat pumps are 100% efficient to -15F (MINUS 15 F). Works great for me in Vermont. I have a back up, biut the electric is my primary for the house - cheap too, about $100 a month for heat. These are super efficient HP's. You guys have to get out of the basement more often |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:36:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It got down to 0 here...geothermal still plugging away Mitsubishi makes some air to air that go down pretty damn low though I'm eyeing one that claims to work til 5....  I also have my eye out for a used pellet stove
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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:38:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Mine does great holding the house at 70 degrees evenly at about 35 degrees outside. If I lower it to 66 or 68 it can do great at 30.degrees outside. Any lower the oil kicks on.
When diesel oil was running 3.50 a gallon I was saving a few hundred bucks a year heating with it in the fall and spring, some winter days. I needed a new account unit and to get a heat pump didn't add much to the price over regular ac. Already paid for the extra heat pump price increase in 2 years. Sounds like you guys need to check your house for bad drafts and stop them up. Buy those little foam pads for the outlets and switches. Believe it out not on older house they draft pretty badly. Check your doors to make sure they close all the way. You can raise the tread plate if it drafts on the bottom. I changed out the single pane basement windows in my basement that would turn to frost in the winter for glass block, and the difference in my basement is night and day. |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:43:31 PM EDT
[#5]
If you have a heat pump with electric heat you still get some heat out of it even when very cold. The heat pump heat is cheaper then your strip heat so keep it going.
You secondary strips will keep you warm. Turning your heat pump off when its cold is a myth you still get heat out of it as a lesser cost. Emergency heat is if your heat pump is broke or you have ice on the blades and do not want to damage your out door unit. If your heat pump is running properly and has a full charge leave it running even when cold as you are getting some heat out of it cheaper then running electric only. This is only if you are running a heat pump with back up electric heat. |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:47:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Its cold out here. Foretasted low of 13F. I had to replace my entire upstairs heat pump last summer due to annual repair costs. I'm burning a kerosene heater to keep the family warm upstairs with natural gas furnace for downstairs. The heat pump seems to do well as long as it temps do not dip below 34 or 35F and the EM heat is marginal. How does yours hold up? Mine works too hard below about 20 F. I now have a wood stove. The HP is now secondary. When the power goes off primary still works.. |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 10:48:45 PM EDT
[#7]
I'll just second what some have already pointed out. Heat pumps are not designed for climates that get below about 30' If temps in your area go below that very much you should have a back up heat source. And 30" is pushing it if your system isn't installed/sized properly. When the heat strips come on, that is the start of the "worthless" part.
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Posted: 1/18/2016 11:06:01 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 1/18/2016 11:10:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Heat pump, what's that? https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1588/24079430539_563fb01669.jpgDSC_2702-Stove by FredMan, on Flickr It's the cheap, effortless unit that should be working in place of that stove for 75% of your cooler temps. |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 11:14:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Evaporator outside will ice up which kills heat transfer from outside air to refrigerant . so around freezing is the limit on most. Even though most have a defrost cycle. Go with ground source heat pumps. You bank heat in the summer and use it in the winter..my in-laws have free well water so they just dump it in the field. |
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Posted: 1/18/2016 11:15:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's the cheap, effortless unit that should be working in place of that stove for 75% of your cooler temps. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Heat pump, what's that? https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1588/24079430539_563fb01669.jpgDSC_2702-Stove by FredMan, on Flickr It's the cheap, effortless unit that should be working in place of that stove for 75% of your cooler temps. Beat me to it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:03:21 AM EDT
[#12]
No Clue, mine switches over to propane automatically if it gets too cold. I think it's somewhere around 20-30 degrees. Saves a ton of propane
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:42:12 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have this setup now? I have an attic room which is poorly insulated due to the location. I've done my best with radiant barriers and maxed out the insulation but it gets super hot and super cold up there. Currently it is a zone off my upstairs heat pump but I keep it off this time of the year because it is storage but can be setup as a master bath. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Check out the ductless high efficiency heat pumps from Mitsubishi. They will work into the teens. Great in the summer also for cooling. Do you have this setup now? I have an attic room which is poorly insulated due to the location. I've done my best with radiant barriers and maxed out the insulation but it gets super hot and super cold up there. Currently it is a zone off my upstairs heat pump but I keep it off this time of the year because it is storage but can be setup as a master bath. Yes I do. I have a dual zone unit for my vacation house in the country. It will actually heat well under the teens and is super efficient. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:02:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Natural gas for the win. It's supposed to get down in the teens here tonight but I'll be nice toasty with my heater set to 70 and me under a blanket.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:05:19 AM EDT
[#15]
Newish heat pumps do pretty decently down into the teens.
My old house (1250 sf or so) averaged $100 per month over 12 months for heating, AC, and everything else (all electric house) in central NC. Highest bill I remember was $140 for one month. That house was built in the '80s I think. Had ok insulation and ok windows. But it was a slab house with ducts in the attic so the first blast of cold air from the chilled ductwork sucked 
When it was really cold out the compressor ran continuously and the backup heat would kick in once in a while to keep up. BTW, the temp at which the backup heat turns on is controlled by the thermostat and not the heat pump. Some are set to default to 'comfort' which means the backup heat kicks in when the house is only a degree or two from the thermostat setting. 'Economy' allows it to swing a few more degrees. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:06:46 AM EDT
[#16]
We just replaced an AC unit on a rental home in Spokane.
Outgoing unit was a 20,000 BTU ductless unit installed in 1995. 10 SEER. New unit is a Mitsubishi ductless with hyper heat, so it can heat the living room when it is just below zero if necessary. New unit is 26.1 SEER, 10.5 HSPF. We also switched form R22 to R410A so maintenance will be cheaper down the road. Replacing the refrigerant in an old R22 unit is roughly 25% of the cost of replacing the unit. Ask me how I know. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:09:40 AM EDT
[#17]
It was just now trying like hell to heat the house it's 9° but it usually does OK till around 20°.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:11:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It works great with no em down to the low 20's, first stage em/30a Heat strip down in to the singles, second stage em/100a works all the way down. I love my heat pump, and while it runs a lot/non stop, it's still efficient. I'm with you. Best thing I did to the house was installing a Heat Pump. Saves me around 1000 a year in propane. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:14:51 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm with you. Best thing I did to the house was installing a Heat Pump. Saves me around 1000 a year in propane. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It works great with no em down to the low 20's, first stage em/30a Heat strip down in to the singles, second stage em/100a works all the way down. I love my heat pump, and while it runs a lot/non stop, it's still efficient. I'm with you. Best thing I did to the house was installing a Heat Pump. Saves me around 1000 a year in propane. That's one of the few advantages we city folks have on you. We gots dat natural gas! 
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:19:03 AM EDT
[#20]
My Mitsubishi works great down to 17 degrees.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:22:19 AM EDT
[#21]
They do tend to work better in the summer.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:38:16 AM EDT
[#22]
Woodstove and R60-something attic insulation is a beautiful thing.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 1:46:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Never had one... I'd imagine they'd work OK here, but I just have a NG furnace and a regular AC unit...
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Posted: 1/19/2016 8:48:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How in hell do you bank heat? That's not how geothermal works. 22 year HVAC tech here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Evaporator outside will ice up which kills heat transfer from outside air to refrigerant . so around freezing is the limit on most. Even though most have a defrost cycle. Go with ground source heat pumps. You bank heat in the summer and use it in the winter..my in-laws have free well water so they just dump it in the field. Banking heat is how ground loop sourced heat pumps work. Ground with good moisture has considerable specific heat and is well insulated. So in the summer, heat from the house is pumped into the ground heating it. In the winter, this heat is then pulled from the "bank" and used to heat the house again using refrigerant heat pump. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 8:54:11 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's one of the few advantages we city folks have on you. We gots dat natural gas! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It works great with no em down to the low 20's, first stage em/30a Heat strip down in to the singles, second stage em/100a works all the way down. I love my heat pump, and while it runs a lot/non stop, it's still efficient. I'm with you. Best thing I did to the house was installing a Heat Pump. Saves me around 1000 a year in propane. That's one of the few advantages we city folks have on you. We gots dat natural gas! We have natural gas here too. The new hotness for HVAC in my area/climate zone seems to be heat pump with nat gas backup/em heat. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:02:23 AM EDT
[#26]
natural gas prices are cheap, right now so I have mine setup to roll over to the gas back-up at 45 degrees.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:05:40 AM EDT
[#27]
I am amazed at how many that live in really cold climates bought a heat pump unit.
They are not designed to run in sub freezing temperatures so the auxiliary heat source whether it's electric or gas must come into play. Give me a natural gas furnace any day of the week and let my a/c compressor run only for cooling. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:07:55 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Geothermal is confused with ground source all too often. Unless you have a volcanic feature, you have to drill 6000 feet to get geothermal. I don't care if you have 100 years of experience or what a.c. installers call it. Most are ground source heat pumps. Banking heat is how ground loop sourced heat pumps work. Ground with good moisture has considerable specific heat and is well insulated. So in the summer, heat from the house is pumped into the ground heating it. In the winter, this heat is then pulled from the "bank" and used to heat the house again using refrigerant heat pump. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Evaporator outside will ice up which kills heat transfer from outside air to refrigerant . so around freezing is the limit on most. Even though most have a defrost cycle. Go with ground source heat pumps. You bank heat in the summer and use it in the winter..my in-laws have free well water so they just dump it in the field. Banking heat is how ground loop sourced heat pumps work. Ground with good moisture has considerable specific heat and is well insulated. So in the summer, heat from the house is pumped into the ground heating it. In the winter, this heat is then pulled from the "bank" and used to heat the house again using refrigerant heat pump. Sorry man just a big "no" on this one. you don't bank heat (lol) at the depths the loops are set you are taking advantage of the median 65 degree temp. Much easier to heat from 65 to 72 and also much easier to cool from 100 to 65. The basis of the energy savings is the constant temp of the water in the loops on the return being 65 degrees, You are smarter than I am (more well read and educated probably smarter maybe not) but you are dead fucking wrong wth your "banking" statement. TLDR: Heating or cooling from a constant of 65 degrees requires much less energy than from ambient air temps...there is no heat storage involved. Been drilling wells for over 25 years and also have a lot of loop systems under my belt. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:08:46 AM EDT
[#29]
My parents house in northern Ohio was all electric, 1900 sf, insulated well. Their high electric bill in the winter with their heat pump was around $250. I don't think that is bad at all. When the temps got down around 30, the electric backup would kick on. I think they kept the thermostat set around 68-70 all winter.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:15:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mine is set to swap over at 37. Then gas ftw. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Low 30's and they're all but useless. Gas heat FTW Why not just use gas all the time? I disable my heat pumps and only use gas furnaces for heat. Gas is cheaper than the electric bill from running the pumps. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:16:52 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At the point they are installed...heat pumps are fucking useless.  If someone tried to take my heatpump, I'd beat them with a pipe. The thing has saved me so much money on heating and cooling.Since you don't have a state in your profile, I'm going to assume your experience is limited to North Dakota, where they wouldn't be a good choice. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:20:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Mine works down to about 20F, since I live in the south that works pretty well. It has gotten down to about 13F here and I just added head via the fireplace.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:41:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why not just use gas all the time? I disable my heat pumps and only use gas furnaces for heat. Gas is cheaper than the electric bill from running the pumps. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Low 30's and they're all but useless. Gas heat FTW Why not just use gas all the time? I disable my heat pumps and only use gas furnaces for heat. Gas is cheaper than the electric bill from running the pumps. I would bet that $10 worth of elec in a heat pump will give more btu of heat then $10 worth of propane. In above 35 deg weather |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 9:57:31 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would bet that $10 worth of elec in a heat pump will give more btu of heat then $10 worth of propane. In above 35 deg weather Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Low 30's and they're all but useless. Gas heat FTW Why not just use gas all the time? I disable my heat pumps and only use gas furnaces for heat. Gas is cheaper than the electric bill from running the pumps. I would bet that $10 worth of elec in a heat pump will give more btu of heat then $10 worth of propane. In above 35 deg weather yeah why use gas when its 40 or 50 degrees outside? waste of money. Cheaper to use the heat pump. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 10:00:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If someone tried to take my heatpump, I'd beat them with a pipe. The thing has saved me so much money on heating and cooling.
Since you don't have a state in your profile, I'm going to assume your experience is limited to North Dakota, where they wouldn't be a good choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
At the point they are installed...heat pumps are fucking useless. If someone tried to take my heatpump, I'd beat them with a pipe. The thing has saved me so much money on heating and cooling.
Since you don't have a state in your profile, I'm going to assume your experience is limited to North Dakota, where they wouldn't be a good choice. Mine has saved me a ton of money in Ohio. From when we kick the heat on in fall until it gets really cold and in the late winter when we need heat but it isn't freezing we use no propane. Huge savings. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 10:04:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Mine does ok, but it's all we really use for heat. I have a propane gas log, but even on the lowest setting it still makes us cook after about 20-30 minutes. Once it gets down to around 20 or lower it kicks into high gear and sucks juice like crazy.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:37:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At the point they are installed...heat pumps are fucking useless. This nails it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:39:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would bet that $10 worth of elec in a heat pump will give more btu of heat then $10 worth of propane. In above 35 deg weather Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Low 30's and they're all but useless. Gas heat FTW Why not just use gas all the time? I disable my heat pumps and only use gas furnaces for heat. Gas is cheaper than the electric bill from running the pumps. I would bet that $10 worth of elec in a heat pump will give more btu of heat then $10 worth of propane. In above 35 deg weather Natural gas here. My first winter using the heat pumps was BRUTAL on my bill. I'd bet it depends on what you pay per KWH vs gas.... along with the age and efficiency of your heat pumps vs efficient rating of your gas furnace. Gas is cheaper for me. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:40:58 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yeah why use gas when its 40 or 50 degrees outside? waste of money. Cheaper to use the heat pump. Because saying "cheaper to use the heat pump" without taking into consideration many more factors..... is oversimplifaction. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:42:58 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anything below 25 or so it runs a lot. Under 20 it's emergency heat more than regular air. But I'm in ga so it's good for me 99% of the time. This. The short stints of emergency heat beats paying for propane for me. Right now its 19, and the pump is running but NOT on emergency, and its nice and warm. I've only seen in kick the strips on when it gets down into the low teens/single digits. My pump is newer, bought it 2 years ago, Ruud. Very efficient model; not the most efficient $$$$ one but one step down. Its about as far from worthless as those older 90's pumps as it can be. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:44:01 AM EDT
[#41]
It was 8 last night. Our heat pump kept up, but it ran constantly.
Last year it dipped into the -2 to -8 range and stayed there for a week or so. I ran a couple of little space heaters and the house was fine. Looking in to a kerosene heater, or two, for supplemental heat, especially if I end up working from home. That's a goal for me. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:48:07 AM EDT
[#42]
The heat strips usually start getting some action when the outside temp gets below 20 on my unit. Auxiliary heat is expensive heat
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:48:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry man just a big "no" on this one. you don't bank heat (lol) at the depths the loops are set you are taking advantage of the median 65 degree temp. Much easier to heat from 65 to 72 and also much easier to cool from 100 to 65. The basis of the energy savings is the constant temp of the water in the loops on the return being 65 degrees, You are smarter than I am (more well read and educated probably smarter maybe not) but you are dead fucking wrong wth your "banking" statement. TLDR: Heating or cooling from a constant of 65 degrees requires much less energy than from ambient air temps...there is no heat storage involved. Been drilling wells for over 25 years and also have a lot of loop systems under my belt. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Evaporator outside will ice up which kills heat transfer from outside air to refrigerant . so around freezing is the limit on most. Even though most have a defrost cycle. Go with ground source heat pumps. You bank heat in the summer and use it in the winter..my in-laws have free well water so they just dump it in the field. Banking heat is how ground loop sourced heat pumps work. Ground with good moisture has considerable specific heat and is well insulated. So in the summer, heat from the house is pumped into the ground heating it. In the winter, this heat is then pulled from the "bank" and used to heat the house again using refrigerant heat pump. Sorry man just a big "no" on this one. you don't bank heat (lol) at the depths the loops are set you are taking advantage of the median 65 degree temp. Much easier to heat from 65 to 72 and also much easier to cool from 100 to 65. The basis of the energy savings is the constant temp of the water in the loops on the return being 65 degrees, You are smarter than I am (more well read and educated probably smarter maybe not) but you are dead fucking wrong wth your "banking" statement. TLDR: Heating or cooling from a constant of 65 degrees requires much less energy than from ambient air temps...there is no heat storage involved. Been drilling wells for over 25 years and also have a lot of loop systems under my belt. Why is the ground at a constant temperature? Because of the insulating effect of soil. Now, when you install a loop system : Where does the heat go in the summer???? Where does the heat come from in the winter??? If the ground is a constant 65F, how can it be called 'geoTHERMAL' especially considering those used for cooling too? |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:52:24 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here you go, for the wrong climates, they're not much use. For those with 4 seasons? They are good money savers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have one and when it dies I will not pay for another. Regular A/C with heat strips. We only use our heaters a few days a year. Here you go, for the wrong climates, they're not much use. For those with 4 seasons? They are good money savers. Yep, for KY and TN they are the best also. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 11:56:08 AM EDT
[#45]
mine is new and works pretty good but I am having issues with frosting over during the night.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:03:48 PM EDT
[#46]
I certainly don't see how the minimal heat given off in the summer isn't immediately zapped away when the cold fall soil begins to lose heat from the surface and the heat transfers.
You know heat moves, not the cold, so heat in the soil will be the first to leave. It doesn't sit in storage space if there is 32 degree soil right above it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:09:38 PM EDT
[#47]
I worked as a maintenance technician at a large resort once and from experience
heat pumps are worthless if you experience any temperature extremes. Barring some sort of revolutionary design improvements, I'll never have one of those expensive shitty things in any home I live in. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:11:38 PM EDT
[#48]
I have about 100 amps of heat strip in the central unit so I don't notice unless it gets arctic cold.
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:12:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Mine is a dual fuel... hybrid... not sure what its called exactly. But around the mid 30s it switches over to propane and works wonderfully. Without the propane backup, it would be worthless by the time you hit 30. We also have a fireplace insert that can heat the majority of the main floor once you get it hot and get the right fans running in the right places.
I've lived in a house with just the heat pump, no backup furnace. We ran a LOT of space heaters in the winter. |
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Posted: 1/19/2016 12:13:39 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I worked as a maintenance technician at a large resort once and from experience heat pumps are worthless if you experience any temperature extremes. Barring some sort of revolutionary design improvements, I'll never have one of those expensive shitty things in any home I live in. Its 19 degrees outside and mine is running just fine. |
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