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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:17:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just found this: While Gene Roddenberry had a general idea of where he wanted to go with the Star Trek universe, most likely he did not feature commerce because he was interested in putting pure sci-fi stories on screen (think of some old episodes and how close they are to old pulp sci-fi). So in essence, (and to reconcile with Zypher's excellent answer), we could say that the Star Trek Universe is as much cashless/commerce-less as it is toilet-less (you never see the bathrooms). In other words, it's not. However, (most) humans are not driven by the acquisition of goods. Although this was not exactly planned as such by Roddenberry, a look at the rough timeline gives us a clue as to how this change comes about:
The real question is. When the find the ship full of people from the 20th century in cryosleep, will they teach them how to use the clamshells or laugh at their expense? 
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:22:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryHeading out to Eden Yea brother Heading out to Eden No more trouble in my body or my mind Gonna live like a king on whatever I find Eat all the fruit and throw away the rind Yea brother, yea. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:30:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are the same Vulcans who kill each other over women. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just found this: While Gene Roddenberry had a general idea of where he wanted to go with the Star Trek universe, most likely he did not feature commerce because he was interested in putting pure sci-fi stories on screen (think of some old episodes and how close they are to old pulp sci-fi). So in essence, (and to reconcile with Zypher's excellent answer), we could say that the Star Trek Universe is as much cashless/commerce-less as it is toilet-less (you never see the bathrooms). In other words, it's not. However, (most) humans are not driven by the acquisition of goods. Although this was not exactly planned as such by Roddenberry, a look at the rough timeline gives us a clue as to how this change comes about:
Those are the same Vulcans who kill each other over women.  |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:31:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was Latinum, dilithium crystals, and energy credits. There was certainly money used on the show. This. Especially when dealing with other species and trade for limited supplies, and especially in the case of the maquis, weapons. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:39:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're there. Miles O'Brian is a chief (NCO), not an officer. Going to the academy is like going to West Point; it's difficult to get in. Wesley Crusher doesn't make it in. The new ST movies fuck it all up by treating the academy like basic training that everybody goes to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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leftist morons think that if there is no money, there is "equality." This is not so, even in the ST universe. Money is just a means of exchange. There are other things that one uses. In Star Trek it is rank and social standing. The captain may not have been paid in more "money" but he was rewarded in prestige and privileges. He had the biggest stateroom. People deferred to him. What he said, went. He could use the holodeck as he pleased, he got all the shore time he wanted, etc. The "everyone is the same" nonsense isn't even true in Star Trek. Not everyone can have a vineyard, as mentioned above, yet Picards brother had one. What we see in ST is rule by the elite, even without "money." How many enlisted you ever see in the Star Trek verse? They're there. Miles O'Brian is a chief (NCO), not an officer. Going to the academy is like going to West Point; it's difficult to get in. Wesley Crusher doesn't make it in. The new ST movies fuck it all up by treating the academy like basic training that everybody goes to. The new movies' portrayal of a military organization is a complete joke, ridiculous really. One of many things I don't like about them. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:01:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be a bad thing because that's where entropy comes in. Your kids don't learn science or engineering or farming or whatever because they don't have to. Their kids don't even learn to read because they have the holodeck. Your grandkids grandkids don't even learn to dress themselves because they can just step into a replicator and get a nice clean fresh set of clothes beamed on. Generation after generation the race loses its spark and its drive. Those guys who climb a mountain just to see what is on the other side are a rare breed now. They become fewer and fewer and pass less if their genes in because they die early in a spaceship accident on the outer rim or get eaten by a Denebian slime devil. Joe "I don't care as long as I get three squars and unlimited holodeck time" live longer, pass their genes on more than the natural adventure type and the society slowly selects for the stay at home layabout and we devolve. Art suffers because there is no suffering and it loses all of its passion. There just are so many "pastoral still life as seen from my holodeck." Society becomes bland, people lose their drive, and entropy and the laws of evolution slip in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Right. Give the Proles the illusion of something to keep them happy. Who gets to use the holodeck and for how long? You need space to have a big enough one to have real fun--you can't have the illusion of a beachfront house in a closet--boom: back to scarcity--scarcity of space and a need to figure out to divide up or share the space. Whoa, you got me! There are practical implementation problems in a completely, admittedly impossible thought experiment scenario. Seriously, I think you're missing the point here, and conflating a sci-fi what if scenario with realistic limitations. Sci-fi writer: "Hey, what would it be like if a life-form was silicon based rather than carbo..." NavyDoc1: "All life is carbon based, hahaha I win you commie!"  We are talking economics and human nature. I said it was possible if human nature changed and we became ants, but then would we still be human? You, yourself said that if you didn't have to work to have your needs met, you wouldn't look for prestige or rank or whatever but would spend all of your time playing with your kids and waking your dogs. Imagine a society where everybody did that--entropy or at least stagnation. 1. Everyone would not do that. As I pointed out earlier, plenty of folks exist right here right now who are living in their own personal post-scarcity world. 2. In a truly P-S world, if everyone did choose to just raise their kids and play with their dogs, why would that be a bad thing? People who want to go colonize planets and explore would still do so, people who wanted to create things would still do so, and people who don't want to do anything would still do so. The only difference would be that the people who choose to do nothing would not be infringing on those who don't. It would be a bad thing because that's where entropy comes in. Your kids don't learn science or engineering or farming or whatever because they don't have to. Their kids don't even learn to read because they have the holodeck. Your grandkids grandkids don't even learn to dress themselves because they can just step into a replicator and get a nice clean fresh set of clothes beamed on. Generation after generation the race loses its spark and its drive. Those guys who climb a mountain just to see what is on the other side are a rare breed now. They become fewer and fewer and pass less if their genes in because they die early in a spaceship accident on the outer rim or get eaten by a Denebian slime devil. Joe "I don't care as long as I get three squars and unlimited holodeck time" live longer, pass their genes on more than the natural adventure type and the society slowly selects for the stay at home layabout and we devolve. Art suffers because there is no suffering and it loses all of its passion. There just are so many "pastoral still life as seen from my holodeck." Society becomes bland, people lose their drive, and entropy and the laws of evolution slip in. Ah, ok so just normal eugenic social Darwinism nonsense. Gotcha. Ever since people no longer need to devote %95 of their time and energy to not starving or freezing to death society has really collapsed. I think we're done here. There is no economic advantage to me to keep arguing with you so the laws of evolution compel me to stop. 
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:15:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you saw "first contact" it is mentioned that a large part of the world population was wiped out by a Third World War that went nuclear. I can only assume that there were two possibilities post war, either people curl up and die or they work to get out of their situation. I can only assume that it is the later and that any remains FSA would die because everyone else would let the weak die. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was a cleansing. If you saw "first contact" it is mentioned that a large part of the world population was wiped out by a Third World War that went nuclear. I can only assume that there were two possibilities post war, either people curl up and die or they work to get out of their situation. I can only assume that it is the later and that any remains FSA would die because everyone else would let the weak die. And they lost a large part of the population at the same time that they discovered virtually limitless energy. The time was ripe for a new "Neo-conomy" to emerge. Sure, for years there was want and strife--but the discovery that there ARE other LOOK* life forms in the galaxy (e.g. the Vulcans, and later the Romulans) spurred the world to a new, "kinder and gentler" government. This new paradigm enabled the "No one in want" kind of existence found in the ST universe. *LOOK = Life Of Our Kind |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:18:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Maybe the FSA mentality is a "learned" behavior?
Like a sense of personal responsibility, duty, and pride? Naahhhhh. 
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:18:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we don't even want talk about the Spaceman 1st Class holodeck janitor.  Eeeewwwwwwwwww...... |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:22:19 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just found this: While Gene Roddenberry had a general idea of where he wanted to go with the Star Trek universe, most likely he did not feature commerce because he was interested in putting pure sci-fi stories on screen (think of some old episodes and how close they are to old pulp sci-fi). So in essence, (and to reconcile with Zypher's excellent answer), we could say that the Star Trek Universe is as much cashless/commerce-less as it is toilet-less (you never see the bathrooms). In other words, it's not. However, (most) humans are not driven by the acquisition of goods. Although this was not exactly planned as such by Roddenberry, a look at the rough timeline gives us a clue as to how this change comes about:
That scene is one of my favorites in the entire franchise. It just embodies the entire spirit of Star Trek. https://youtu.be/qXw6hC7hxBA |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:27:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
would prevent the need for panic buys Gun control nuts would have a shitfit, press a button and BAM! Got a brand new M16, or phaser, or proton torpedo Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Replicators. You don't need anything when everything is free. would prevent the need for panic buys Gun control nuts would have a shitfit, press a button and BAM! Got a brand new M16, or phaser, or proton torpedo Replicators, at least non-military ones, were programmed to not replicate weaponry I think by the 23rd century Earth was essentially disarmed Kirk had some wall hangers on the wall of his place in Wrath of Khan There was the farmer with his phaser longgun in Enterprise I don't think general society had access to firearms by TOS |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:28:26 AM EDT
[#12]
There are throngs dirt side replicating forties and weed and meth.
The show is about the few who go space adventuring. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:29:38 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Replicators. You don't need anything when everything is free. Not everything can be replicated. Money of some sort would still be necessary as there would still be limited resources. Land, for example. Picard's family owns a vineyard in France. How is land ownership decided? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:34:06 AM EDT
[#14]
Not even the Federation can stem the flow of the mighty river of the Great Material Continuum.
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:37:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Star Trek makes more sense if you think of it like a propaganda TV show shown to Federation citizens.
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:38:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Replicators, at least non-military ones, were programmed to not replicate weaponry I think by the 23rd century Earth was essentially disarmed Kirk had some wall hangers on the wall of his place in Wrath of Khan There was the farmer with his phaser longgun in Enterprise I don't think general society had access to firearms by TOS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Replicators. You don't need anything when everything is free. would prevent the need for panic buys Gun control nuts would have a shitfit, press a button and BAM! Got a brand new M16, or phaser, or proton torpedo Replicators, at least non-military ones, were programmed to not replicate weaponry I think by the 23rd century Earth was essentially disarmed Kirk had some wall hangers on the wall of his place in Wrath of Khan There was the farmer with his phaser longgun in Enterprise I don't think general society had access to firearms by TOS I read that when someone was placed on house arrest their replicator would be disabled to prevent the creation of a weapon. I am sure that if someone wanted a weapon it wouldn't be hard to create one. I do not remember seeing anything about banning civies from owning firearms. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:52:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read that when someone was placed on house arrest their replicator would be disabled to prevent the creation of a weapon. I am sure that if someone wanted a weapon it wouldn't be hard to create one. I do not remember seeing anything about banning civies from owning firearms. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Replicators. You don't need anything when everything is free. would prevent the need for panic buys Gun control nuts would have a shitfit, press a button and BAM! Got a brand new M16, or phaser, or proton torpedo Replicators, at least non-military ones, were programmed to not replicate weaponry I think by the 23rd century Earth was essentially disarmed Kirk had some wall hangers on the wall of his place in Wrath of Khan There was the farmer with his phaser longgun in Enterprise I don't think general society had access to firearms by TOS I read that when someone was placed on house arrest their replicator would be disabled to prevent the creation of a weapon. I am sure that if someone wanted a weapon it wouldn't be hard to create one. I do not remember seeing anything about banning civies from owning firearms. They always had weapons. Sulu had "a collection" of firearms. The difference being, the typical Federation citizen wasn't a thug. No worries. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 9:25:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be a bad thing because that's where entropy comes in. Your kids don't learn science or engineering or farming or whatever because they don't have to. Their kids don't even learn to read because they have the holodeck. Your grandkids grandkids don't even learn to dress themselves because they can just step into a replicator and get a nice clean fresh set of clothes beamed on. Generation after generation the race loses its spark and its drive. Those guys who climb a mountain just to see what is on the other side are a rare breed now. They become fewer and fewer and pass less if their genes in because they die early in a spaceship accident on the outer rim or get eaten by a Denebian slime devil. Joe "I don't care as long as I get three squars and unlimited holodeck time" live longer, pass their genes on more than the natural adventure type and the society slowly selects for the stay at home layabout and we devolve. Art suffers because there is no suffering and it loses all of its passion. There just are so many "pastoral still life as seen from my holodeck." Society becomes bland, people lose their drive, and entropy and the laws of evolution slip in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Right. Give the Proles the illusion of something to keep them happy. Who gets to use the holodeck and for how long? You need space to have a big enough one to have real fun--you can't have the illusion of a beachfront house in a closet--boom: back to scarcity--scarcity of space and a need to figure out to divide up or share the space. Whoa, you got me! There are practical implementation problems in a completely, admittedly impossible thought experiment scenario. Seriously, I think you're missing the point here, and conflating a sci-fi what if scenario with realistic limitations. Sci-fi writer: "Hey, what would it be like if a life-form was silicon based rather than carbo..." NavyDoc1: "All life is carbon based, hahaha I win you commie!" We are talking economics and human nature. I said it was possible if human nature changed and we became ants, but then would we still be human? You, yourself said that if you didn't have to work to have your needs met, you wouldn't look for prestige or rank or whatever but would spend all of your time playing with your kids and waking your dogs. Imagine a society where everybody did that--entropy or at least stagnation. 1. Everyone would not do that. As I pointed out earlier, plenty of folks exist right here right now who are living in their own personal post-scarcity world. 2. In a truly P-S world, if everyone did choose to just raise their kids and play with their dogs, why would that be a bad thing? People who want to go colonize planets and explore would still do so, people who wanted to create things would still do so, and people who don't want to do anything would still do so. The only difference would be that the people who choose to do nothing would not be infringing on those who don't. It would be a bad thing because that's where entropy comes in. Your kids don't learn science or engineering or farming or whatever because they don't have to. Their kids don't even learn to read because they have the holodeck. Your grandkids grandkids don't even learn to dress themselves because they can just step into a replicator and get a nice clean fresh set of clothes beamed on. Generation after generation the race loses its spark and its drive. Those guys who climb a mountain just to see what is on the other side are a rare breed now. They become fewer and fewer and pass less if their genes in because they die early in a spaceship accident on the outer rim or get eaten by a Denebian slime devil. Joe "I don't care as long as I get three squars and unlimited holodeck time" live longer, pass their genes on more than the natural adventure type and the society slowly selects for the stay at home layabout and we devolve. Art suffers because there is no suffering and it loses all of its passion. There just are so many "pastoral still life as seen from my holodeck." Society becomes bland, people lose their drive, and entropy and the laws of evolution slip in. im going with no. not saying that it doesn't happen but you have to think jack wont shack up with jill when he can have jilly, jackie, and literly every other hot chick in the world at the same time. the people with no drive will die off, and it will probably become shameful to spend to much time in a holodeck. toss in that there are thousands of worlds to explore, and you will have people who even though they have everything are bored. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 9:35:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
im going with no. not saying that it doesn't happen but you have to think jack wont shack up with jill when he can have jilly, jackie, and literly every other hot chick in the world at the same time. the people with no drive will die off, and it will probably become shameful to spend to much time in a holodeck. toss in that there are thousands of worlds to explore, and you will have people who even though they have everything are bored. Why would they die off? Oh, I get it, they'd be too busy fucking pretend really, really, really hot people in the holodeck and thus would not have real people sex and thus they wouldn't pass their genes on, thus selecting against themselves. I think you may have me there. I didn't think of that.
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Posted: 10/13/2015 9:38:17 AM EDT
[#20]
Long read here but it makes a lot of sense.
https://medium.com/@RickWebb/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab88d50 |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 9:51:51 AM EDT
[#21]
Star Trec, at least in part recognized manifest destiny. When we had the western expansion - we did not have the FSA. There was plenty of opportunity for everyone.
I know that is a crock as well, but Space is providing a new place of opportunity. Hell, if you looked hard enough you could probably own your own planet. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 9:53:02 AM EDT
[#22]
They're all in offworld FEMA camps.
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Posted: 10/13/2015 10:00:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The FSA were all given red shirts and beamed somewhere LOL, voted best answer! 
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:13:19 AM EDT
[#24]
What I'd like to know is what motivates someone to get a Federation ship and go off to fight someone like the Borg if there's no personal profit
Is there some form of patriotism to the concept of the Federation that makes it worth dying for by the thousands in some of those battles they had? Human nature being what it is, I would think that people would go off on missions of exploration but up against the Borg, Cardasians, Romulans etc you'd have a whole lot of citizens bailing or thinking it was someone else's job to take on those missions The cream of the crop of an entire generation was wiped out in WW1. The cumulative effects of WW1 and WW2 on their respective generations are why we have the Europe of today I would think that all of the altruistic Federation folks who would run to the sound of phaser fire for noble reasons would be killed off in short order in a protracted war. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:20:30 AM EDT
[#25]
A lot of economic rules go out the window when you have a magic box that can make most goods
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:32:58 AM EDT
[#26]
That is kind of the problem with all of these Utopian societies.
They NEVER show you the ugly past where those who thought differently were exterminated. In Russia, entire families disappeared and people just pretended they moved away when they were actually sent off to forced labor usually to be worked to death. You will not be allowed to just sit around and soak up the goodies. This "cleansing" also serves as a warning to others who would not comply so everyone plays along to get along "for the betterment of mankind". But if you notice there is a recurring theme throughout all of the series and that is the rationing of food/holodeck-recreation time/replicator items. I'm sure you wouldn't be allowed to clutter your living space aboard ship with a bunch of crap without having to 'reclaim' some of your replicated items. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:35:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The new movies' portrayal of a military organization is a complete joke, ridiculous really. One of many things I don't like about them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: leftist morons think that if there is no money, there is "equality." This is not so, even in the ST universe. Money is just a means of exchange. There are other things that one uses. In Star Trek it is rank and social standing. The captain may not have been paid in more "money" but he was rewarded in prestige and privileges. He had the biggest stateroom. People deferred to him. What he said, went. He could use the holodeck as he pleased, he got all the shore time he wanted, etc. The "everyone is the same" nonsense isn't even true in Star Trek. Not everyone can have a vineyard, as mentioned above, yet Picards brother had one. What we see in ST is rule by the elite, even without "money." How many enlisted you ever see in the Star Trek verse? They're there. Miles O'Brian is a chief (NCO), not an officer. Going to the academy is like going to West Point; it's difficult to get in. Wesley Crusher doesn't make it in. The new ST movies fuck it all up by treating the academy like basic training that everybody goes to. The new movies' portrayal of a military organization is a complete joke, ridiculous really. One of many things I don't like about them. There's a lot I like about the new movies, but there's a lot I don't like and they dumbed them down too much. It's not science fiction anymore; it's just a space setting for action movies. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:35:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Mental health issues cured? Addiction to food drugs etc gone?
This wood do away with most FSA. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:37:23 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But if you notice there is a recurring theme throughout all of the series and that is the rationing of food/holodeck-recreation time/replicator items. I'm sure you wouldn't be allowed to clutter your living space aboard ship with a bunch of crap without having to 'reclaim' some of your replicated items. I think that only applied to Voyager with the reason given that they had to curtail energy use The enlisted crew quarters on Enterprise are nowhere as roomy as the officers suites. Multiple bodies in a room on bunk beds. Not very cozy by comparison |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:43:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Why weren't there any fat chicks in Star Trek?
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Posted: 10/13/2015 11:53:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why weren't there any fat chicks in Star Trek? Fat chicks are deported to Tasha Yar's colony where they run their asses off to avoid rape, murder, arson, and rape. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:04:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fat chicks are deported to Tasha Yar's colony where they run their asses off to avoid rape, murder, arson, and rape. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why weren't there any fat chicks in Star Trek? Fat chicks are deported to Tasha Yar's colony where they run their asses off to avoid rape, murder, arson, and rape. Ironically Denise Crosby got huge after leaving the show. She went from slightly tough-hot-chick looking to a chunky Ellen DeGeneres to massive gym teacher bull in about 10 years. I think she's cut some weight again and now looks like a totally average woman in her late 50s. The other answer is that they aren't on Star Trek much because Star Trek centers around the exploits of a bunch of quasi-military explorers who have physical fitness standards. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:07:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The other answer is that they aren't on Star Trek much because Star Trek centers around the exploits of a bunch of quasi-military explorers who have physical fitness standards. Or they dress them up as an alien species. It's apparently OK to be a fat female alien |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:13:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What I'd like to know is what motivates someone to get a Federation ship and go off to fight someone like the Borg if there's no personal profit Is there some form of patriotism to the concept of the Federation that makes it worth dying for by the thousands in some of those battles they had? Human nature being what it is, I would think that people would go off on missions of exploration but up against the Borg, Cardasians, Romulans etc you'd have a whole lot of citizens bailing or thinking it was someone else's job to take on those missions The cream of the crop of an entire generation was wiped out in WW1. The cumulative effects of WW1 and WW2 on their respective generations are why we have the Europe of today I would think that all of the altruistic Federation folks who would run to the sound of phaser fire for noble reasons would be killed off in short order in a protracted war. So people only serve in the military for the money? Is the pay that good nowadays? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:15:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First off, it's fiction. Second, it is assumed that the average federation citizen is a LOT smarter than the average Joe today. Me personally? I don't have a replicator, and I'm not rich. Therefore, I must work to live. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would go back to school for physics, chemistry, or some other science and try to make the world better. I wouldn't become FSA because that's not what good, responsible, motivated, productive people do. all of this. In that world I'd do archeology or botany. be cool as hell to warp around to planets and dig up lost ancient civilizations older than the human race |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:18:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many enlisted you ever see in the Star Trek verse? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
leftist morons think that if there is no money, there is "equality." This is not so, even in the ST universe. Money is just a means of exchange. There are other things that one uses. In Star Trek it is rank and social standing. The captain may not have been paid in more "money" but he was rewarded in prestige and privileges. He had the biggest stateroom. People deferred to him. What he said, went. He could use the holodeck as he pleased, he got all the shore time he wanted, etc. The "everyone is the same" nonsense isn't even true in Star Trek. Not everyone can have a vineyard, as mentioned above, yet Picards brother had one. What we see in ST is rule by the elite, even without "money." How many enlisted you ever see in the Star Trek verse? there's a ton of Ensigns... |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:18:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or they dress them up as an alien species. It's apparently OK to be a fat female alien Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The other answer is that they aren't on Star Trek much because Star Trek centers around the exploits of a bunch of quasi-military explorers who have physical fitness standards. Or they dress them up as an alien species. It's apparently OK to be a fat female alien I can only think of one counterpoint to that - Worf's foster mother Helena Rozhenko. Human, and chunky. But she's old, so doesn't technically count as "fat chick". Bajoran high priestess poobah lady was big, but she's alien... Guinan was a bit big, but she's alien. You may be on to something here. Or I just may suffere from dearth of familiarity with "fat women on Star Trek"... which is probably good because if it were something I knew well it would probably displace something useful. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:19:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Everyone needs to keep in mind that the show(s) revolved around a small group of Starfleet officers on a couple of ships, they rarely showed what life was like for the normal person.
Would a TV of the command deck of the current USS Enterprise be a good portrayal of society as a whole? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:22:16 PM EDT
[#39]
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Replicators couldn't make Latinum and dilithium crystals? Whassup with that Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was Latinum, dilithium crystals, and energy credits. There was certainly money used on the show. Replicators couldn't make Latinum and dilithium crystals? Whassup with that since Dilithium is used to produce energy, using engery to make the things that create energy is going to be a losing proposition. in fact, the replicators has a cost to use. They consume energy, and will not operate at 100% efficiency, so there is always a loss. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:23:19 PM EDT
[#40]
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Everyone needs to keep in mind that the show(s) revolved around a small group of Starfleet officers on a couple of ships, they rarely showed what life was like for the normal person. Would a TV of the command deck of the current USS Enterprise be a good portrayal of society as a whole? Depends if Mabus has implemented all of Obama's SJW orders yet. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:33:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Soylent Green is FSA.
And the replicators need raw material to perform matter and energy transformations. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:42:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Perhaps we're missing the most important point: not politics, but politicians.
A politician's most important job is to stay in office. When everyone's basic wants and needs are satisfied, it'll be easier for them to achieve the "extras" in life. Politicians will have no voter base. Politicians will then have to change their tactics to satisfy other people's needs. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:46:08 PM EDT
[#43]
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The exchange between Jake and Nog perfectly illustrates the problems with Star Trek's no-currency system. There are always things people will want, and without barter or money as a medium of exchange, it's very difficult to deal with human (and alien) desires for acquisition of things. Whoever wrote that DS9 exchange managed to subvert the entire Trek money argument less than a minute.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx5I7uEEEYo
IIRC the entire episode then revolves around the two of them going out and doing favors for people in order to barter into getting what they need to get the card. They help everyone at the station by doing other tasks no one wants to have done and by negotiating other tasks - a series of long barters that as noted by the SFDebris review would be greatly simplified with a standard unit of exchange in order to quantify the labor being traded... namely, money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The exchange between Jake and Nog perfectly illustrates the problems with Star Trek's no-currency system. There are always things people will want, and without barter or money as a medium of exchange, it's very difficult to deal with human (and alien) desires for acquisition of things. Whoever wrote that DS9 exchange managed to subvert the entire Trek money argument less than a minute. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx5I7uEEEYo
IIRC the entire episode then revolves around the two of them going out and doing favors for people in order to barter into getting what they need to get the card. They help everyone at the station by doing other tasks no one wants to have done and by negotiating other tasks - a series of long barters that as noted by the SFDebris review would be greatly simplified with a standard unit of exchange in order to quantify the labor being traded... namely, money. In this kind of society, the FSA have been been left behind. The only ones in an equivalent position are those who had a paying position and lost it, then got relegated to the lower parts of the station. These were not people who were "born" FSA but who had become victims of circumstances, and who knew and valued the virtues of hard work. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:47:01 PM EDT
[#44]
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1. The people who truly foster innovation and progress would still do so, the people who don't want to work would still do so. I don't think it'd change things as much as you think. 2. So things won't change but entropy will drag us down? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Which goes back to and bolsters my point that status, prestige, and rank are the new currencies and things really haven't changed much simply my eliminating the need for a means of exchange. Instead of wanting a million dollars in the bank, they bank privilege and fame and prestige. The Captian has it much better than ensign snuffy. So, is your point that some people would choose to pursue fame and prestige P-S, or that a P-S society would be a hellish dystopia out of Wall-E? You seem to be making contradictory points. Fame and prestige etc are not only optional for life, to many people they are actually anathema. If we lived in a truly P-S society I'd be very happy being an anonymous nobody who spent my time raising my kids, playing with my dogs, going hiking etc. I'm not contradictory. I've had two salient points. 1). In a post P-S society, Entropy will eventually drag us down or at least stifle progress. 2). Eliminating money will not eliminate greed or crime or anything else but rather simply change the means of exchange and where value is held. 1. The people who truly foster innovation and progress would still do so, the people who don't want to work would still do so. I don't think it'd change things as much as you think. 2. So things won't change but entropy will drag us down? You know something... this looks more and more like a "Basic Wage" economy! |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:47:34 PM EDT
[#45]
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Long read here but it makes a lot of sense. https://medium.com/@RickWebb/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab88d50 One of the problems with this is that plenty of people, at least in TOS, engaged in high risk occupations that were not meant to better humanity. (Who decides what is better for humanity?) There were miners on distant planets with bad environments. There were traders who piloted old ships across the galaxy along with references to their boredom, death and destruction. There were explorers who settled on horrifically dull planets where they presumably dedicated their lives to their efforts to quantify the dullness in some sort of bizarre homage to Slartibartfast. The show made it clear that the Federation needed whatever was in the mine. Traders carried cargo that people needed or wanted. The theory of unlimited free stuff from the Federation turns those people into loons. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:53:46 PM EDT
[#46]
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There was also a eugenics war that wiped out a lot of mankind (Khan era) Can't remember if there was a robot uprising or not (since data is the first android). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There was a cleansing. If you saw "first contact" it is mentioned that a large part of the world population was wiped out by a Third World War that went nuclear. I can only assume that there were two possibilities post war, either people curl up and die or they work to get out of their situation. I can only assume that it is the later and that any remains FSA would die because everyone else would let the weak die. There was also a eugenics war that wiped out a lot of mankind (Khan era) Can't remember if there was a robot uprising or not (since data is the first android). Robots need not be androids. Imagine the havoc that would ensue if the robots that control, say, basic city services revolted. Traffic lights working improperly: Many accidents, from fender-benders to pedestrian vs. vehicle to high speed impacts would occur. Waste disposal: All the sewage pumps would shut down. EMS dispatch: Cops, fire and rescue personnel never get to their destinations. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:59:16 PM EDT
[#47]
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Replicators, at least non-military ones, were programmed to not replicate weaponry I think by the 23rd century Earth was essentially disarmed Kirk had some wall hangers on the wall of his place in Wrath of Khan There was the farmer with his phaser longgun in Enterprise I don't think general society had access to firearms by TOS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Replicators. You don't need anything when everything is free. would prevent the need for panic buys Gun control nuts would have a shitfit, press a button and BAM! Got a brand new M16, or phaser, or proton torpedo Replicators, at least non-military ones, were programmed to not replicate weaponry I think by the 23rd century Earth was essentially disarmed Kirk had some wall hangers on the wall of his place in Wrath of Khan There was the farmer with his phaser longgun in Enterprise I don't think general society had access to firearms by TOS But, given a technical background, new weapons ARE possible. For example, the same week this thread was started, someone showed a friend's attempt at designing a railgun. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:13:36 PM EDT
[#48]
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So people only serve in the military for the money? Is the pay that good nowadays? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What I'd like to know is what motivates someone to get a Federation ship and go off to fight someone like the Borg if there's no personal profit Is there some form of patriotism to the concept of the Federation that makes it worth dying for by the thousands in some of those battles they had? Human nature being what it is, I would think that people would go off on missions of exploration but up against the Borg, Cardasians, Romulans etc you'd have a whole lot of citizens bailing or thinking it was someone else's job to take on those missions The cream of the crop of an entire generation was wiped out in WW1. The cumulative effects of WW1 and WW2 on their respective generations are why we have the Europe of today I would think that all of the altruistic Federation folks who would run to the sound of phaser fire for noble reasons would be killed off in short order in a protracted war. So people only serve in the military for the money? Is the pay that good nowadays? Read all of what I said, not just a small portion I specifically mentioned patriotism as a motivator for serving, but how is one patriotic towards a Federation of Planets Also the fact that IF you have an altruistic group that wants to join up and go out there and be all scientific and explore, it becomes a game changer when a species shows up and starts turning your buddies into a bunch of cyborgs. The altruistic ones get chewed up and spit out at a fast clip and that leaves what behind for a candidate pool for the Federation to draw from. For a modern day comparison, the sorts of people who join the Peace Corps to go out into the world and be all touchy feely with native populations would not be well suited to suddenly be on the front lines of a shooting war |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:18:47 PM EDT
[#49]
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One of the problems with this is that plenty of people, at least in TOS, engaged in high risk occupations that were not meant to better humanity. (Who decides what is better for humanity?) Bluegill parasites. There were miners on distant planets with bad environments. Replaced by slave holograms. Last paragraph. There were traders who piloted old ships across the galaxy along with references to their boredom, death and destruction. Fuck Okona. There were explorers who settled on horrifically dull planets where they presumably dedicated their lives to their efforts to quantify the dullness in some sort of bizarre homage to Slartibartfast. They must've remembered to bring telephone sanitizers with them. The show made it clear that the Federation needed whatever was in the mine. Traders carried cargo that people needed or wanted. The theory of unlimited free stuff from the Federation turns those people into loons. Starfleet lives by tribute of dilithium? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Long read here but it makes a lot of sense. https://medium.com/@RickWebb/the-economics-of-star-trek-29bab88d50 One of the problems with this is that plenty of people, at least in TOS, engaged in high risk occupations that were not meant to better humanity. (Who decides what is better for humanity?) Bluegill parasites. There were miners on distant planets with bad environments. Replaced by slave holograms. Last paragraph. There were traders who piloted old ships across the galaxy along with references to their boredom, death and destruction. Fuck Okona. There were explorers who settled on horrifically dull planets where they presumably dedicated their lives to their efforts to quantify the dullness in some sort of bizarre homage to Slartibartfast. They must've remembered to bring telephone sanitizers with them. The show made it clear that the Federation needed whatever was in the mine. Traders carried cargo that people needed or wanted. The theory of unlimited free stuff from the Federation turns those people into loons. Starfleet lives by tribute of dilithium? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:21:22 PM EDT
[#50]
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Read all of what I said, not just a small portion I specifically mentioned patriotism as a motivator for serving, but how is one patriotic towards a Federation of Planets Also the fact that IF you have an altruistic group that wants to join up and go out there and be all scientific and explore, it becomes a game changer when a species shows up and starts turning your buddies into a bunch of cyborgs. The altruistic ones get chewed up and spit out at a fast clip and that leaves what behind for a candidate pool for the Federation to draw from. For a modern day comparison, the sorts of people who join the Peace Corps to go out into the world and be all touchy feely with native populations would not be well suited to suddenly be on the front lines of a shooting war Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What I'd like to know is what motivates someone to get a Federation ship and go off to fight someone like the Borg if there's no personal profit Is there some form of patriotism to the concept of the Federation that makes it worth dying for by the thousands in some of those battles they had? Human nature being what it is, I would think that people would go off on missions of exploration but up against the Borg, Cardasians, Romulans etc you'd have a whole lot of citizens bailing or thinking it was someone else's job to take on those missions The cream of the crop of an entire generation was wiped out in WW1. The cumulative effects of WW1 and WW2 on their respective generations are why we have the Europe of today I would think that all of the altruistic Federation folks who would run to the sound of phaser fire for noble reasons would be killed off in short order in a protracted war. So people only serve in the military for the money? Is the pay that good nowadays? Read all of what I said, not just a small portion I specifically mentioned patriotism as a motivator for serving, but how is one patriotic towards a Federation of Planets Also the fact that IF you have an altruistic group that wants to join up and go out there and be all scientific and explore, it becomes a game changer when a species shows up and starts turning your buddies into a bunch of cyborgs. The altruistic ones get chewed up and spit out at a fast clip and that leaves what behind for a candidate pool for the Federation to draw from. For a modern day comparison, the sorts of people who join the Peace Corps to go out into the world and be all touchy feely with native populations would not be well suited to suddenly be on the front lines of a shooting war I was trying to point out that the same exact motivations today would exist in the future too. A federation of planets? A United States of America. Same difference. Starfleet was not just a bunch of Peace Corps hippy Communist explorers, they always have been a semi militaristic exploration group. I like to think of them as a navy that is continuously scouting. You don't man a ship carrying torpedoes with a bunch of hippies. |
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