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Posted: 10/12/2015 6:38:32 PM EDT
[#1]
I am outraged.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 6:42:10 PM EDT
[#2]
In 1970, much of the country was angry, scared, and tired of the all-too-common violent "protests" in America. A pretty common reaction to the shootings among John and Jane Q. Public was "good" and there was a great willingness to give the guardsmen the biggest benefit of the doubt.
I don't think that would be the reaction if it happened today, though. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 6:48:55 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And most of the folks who ended up with M-2 Ball insertions were WELL Away from where the protesters were Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. And most of the folks who ended up with M-2 Ball insertions were WELL Away from where the protesters were I take it you've never been in the butts during that Gas Mask Relay. No one hit shit and dirt was flying all over the place. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 7:10:49 PM EDT
[#4]
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I take it you've never been in the butts during that Gas Mask Relay. No one hit shit and dirt was flying all over the place. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. And most of the folks who ended up with M-2 Ball insertions were WELL Away from where the protesters were I take it you've never been in the butts during that Gas Mask Relay. No one hit shit and dirt was flying all over the place. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 7:25:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class? I ask because that's what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 7:34:36 PM EDT
[#6]
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A statist coming out thread; cool. Considering the .gov cheerleaders here that grow in numbers by the hour im not surprised in the slightest. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 7:57:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:09:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Yeah, fuck them hippies! It's not like the gubberment would ever send it's JBT thugs after PRO 2A folks like us
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:30:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. The people walking peaceably to class a football field's distance away, what was their crime? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:47:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Yet they Did manage to kill the Innocent people. not the rock and Molotov-throwers.....Dude, do you REALLY think the ROTC Cadet 100+ Meters away was a PART of it? They Fucked up...You can SAY it... Poor training, and Panic = COLOSSAL Fuckup |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:57:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yet they Did manage to kill the Innocent people. not the rock and Molotov-throwers.....Dude, do you REALLY think the ROTC Cadet 100+ Meters away was a PART of it? They Fucked up...You can SAY it... Poor training, and Panic = COLOSSAL Fuckup Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Yet they Did manage to kill the Innocent people. not the rock and Molotov-throwers.....Dude, do you REALLY think the ROTC Cadet 100+ Meters away was a PART of it? They Fucked up...You can SAY it... Poor training, and Panic = COLOSSAL Fuckup Certainly the NG fucked up and were poorly trained and poorly led. However, they were there because of an unruly mob of violent arsonists whose intent was to escalate the violence as much as possible and the primary fault lies on their heads. Like a bank robber gets the blame for an accidental police shooting of a hostage during their robbery, these criminals deserve the blame for the Kent state shooting. If they were not violent arsonists, the NG would not have been there in the first place. The NG didn't intend to shoot an ROTC student a half a football field away. The panicked. Their vision was impaired by gas masks and they fired blindly when they were ( possibly) fired upon or at least in response to violent acts against them. Stupid and untrained? Certainly. However the bulk of the fault lies with the agitators who committed arson and other violent acts. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:17:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The NG didn't intend to shoot an ROTC student a half a football field away. The panicked. Their vision was impaired by gas masks and they fired blindly when they were ( possibly) fired upon or at least in response to violent acts against them. Stupid and untrained? Certainly. However the bulk of the fault lies with the agitators who committed arson and other violent acts. Somehow if it was ME panicking and shooting the wrong people, no matter what the circumstances i dont think i'd be getting a pass Doc.... |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:24:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Certainly the NG fucked up and were poorly trained and poorly led. However, they were there because of an unruly mob of violent arsonists whose intent was to escalate the violence as much as possible and the primary fault lies on their heads. Like a bank robber gets the blame for an accidental police shooting of a hostage during their robbery, these criminals deserve the blame for the Kent state shooting. If they were not violent arsonists, the NG would not have been there in the first place. The NG didn't intend to shoot an ROTC student a half a football field away. The panicked. Their vision was impaired by gas masks and they fired blindly when they were ( possibly) fired upon or at least in response to violent acts against them. Stupid and untrained? Certainly. However the bulk of the fault lies with the agitators who committed arson and other violent acts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Yet they Did manage to kill the Innocent people. not the rock and Molotov-throwers.....Dude, do you REALLY think the ROTC Cadet 100+ Meters away was a PART of it? They Fucked up...You can SAY it... Poor training, and Panic = COLOSSAL Fuckup Certainly the NG fucked up and were poorly trained and poorly led. However, they were there because of an unruly mob of violent arsonists whose intent was to escalate the violence as much as possible and the primary fault lies on their heads. Like a bank robber gets the blame for an accidental police shooting of a hostage during their robbery, these criminals deserve the blame for the Kent state shooting. If they were not violent arsonists, the NG would not have been there in the first place. The NG didn't intend to shoot an ROTC student a half a football field away. The panicked. Their vision was impaired by gas masks and they fired blindly when they were ( possibly) fired upon or at least in response to violent acts against them. Stupid and untrained? Certainly. However the bulk of the fault lies with the agitators who committed arson and other violent acts. This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view? By the way, considerably more than half a football field away: Official reports stated that Schroeder was actually 382 feet from the National Guard at the time he was shot, while lying on the ground facing away from the Guardsmen.
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:30:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view? Have I said anything remotely similar? By the same token, there are some here who say that it's and example of statist Jack-booted thugs who got off on shooting noncombatants , but that's not true either. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:32:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somehow if it was ME panicking and shooting the wrong people, no matter what the circumstances i dont think i'd be getting a pass Doc.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The NG didn't intend to shoot an ROTC student a half a football field away. The panicked. Their vision was impaired by gas masks and they fired blindly when they were ( possibly) fired upon or at least in response to violent acts against them. Stupid and untrained? Certainly. However the bulk of the fault lies with the agitators who committed arson and other violent acts. Somehow if it was ME panicking and shooting the wrong people, no matter what the circumstances i dont think i'd be getting a pass Doc.... If some guys are burning down your house and throw rocks at you as you try to keep the neighbors house from being burned down too and you fire at them but hit an innocent guy halfway down the block, you might get a pass too. Kind of depends on the totality of the situation. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:51:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have I said anything remotely similar? By the same token, there are some here who say that it's and example of statist Jack-booted thugs who got off on shooting noncombatants , but that's not true either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view? Have I said anything remotely similar? By the same token, there are some here who say that it's and example of statist Jack-booted thugs who got off on shooting noncombatants , but that's not true either. No, have I or anyone else expressed anything remotely similar to the idea that those killed or wounded while actively engaged in violent criminal acts weren't solely to blame for their own misfortune? I'm not going to get embroiled in a pissing contest apportioning blame for the killing and wounding of innocents between the agitators and the Guard. I will, however, be happy to discuss the idea that those innocent of any wrongdoing were somehow to blame for their own misfortune. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 10:16:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, have I or anyone else expressed anything remotely similar to the idea that those killed or wounded while actively engaged in violent criminal acts weren't solely to blame for their own misfortune? I'm not going to get embroiled in a pissing contest apportioning blame for the killing and wounding of innocents between the agitators and the Guard. I will, however, be happy to discuss the idea that those innocent of any wrongdoing were somehow to blame for their own misfortune. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view? Have I said anything remotely similar? By the same token, there are some here who say that it's and example of statist Jack-booted thugs who got off on shooting noncombatants , but that's not true either. No, have I or anyone else expressed anything remotely similar to the idea that those killed or wounded while actively engaged in violent criminal acts weren't solely to blame for their own misfortune? I'm not going to get embroiled in a pissing contest apportioning blame for the killing and wounding of innocents between the agitators and the Guard. I will, however, be happy to discuss the idea that those innocent of any wrongdoing were somehow to blame for their own misfortune. Actually there have been many a "statist Jack-booted thug repressing free speech" comment in the thread--I've simply pointed out that that isn't an accurate representation of the situation. If you only want to limit discussion on a complex issue to single, myopic, and narrow point, what can one do? You can't discuss the innocent lives lost without discussing why the NG was there in the first place and why they shot--it's all interrelated. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 10:49:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually there have been many a "statist Jack-booted thug repressing free speech" comment in the thread--I've simply pointed out that that isn't an accurate representation of the situation. If you only want to limit discussion on a complex issue to single, myopic, and narrow point, what can one do? You can't discuss the innocent lives lost without discussing why the NG was there in the first place and why they shot--it's all interrelated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view? Have I said anything remotely similar? By the same token, there are some here who say that it's and example of statist Jack-booted thugs who got off on shooting noncombatants , but that's not true either. No, have I or anyone else expressed anything remotely similar to the idea that those killed or wounded while actively engaged in violent criminal acts weren't solely to blame for their own misfortune? I'm not going to get embroiled in a pissing contest apportioning blame for the killing and wounding of innocents between the agitators and the Guard. I will, however, be happy to discuss the idea that those innocent of any wrongdoing were somehow to blame for their own misfortune. Actually there have been many a "statist Jack-booted thug repressing free speech" comment in the thread--I've simply pointed out that that isn't an accurate representation of the situation. If you only want to limit discussion on a complex issue to single, myopic, and narrow point, what can one do? You can't discuss the innocent lives lost without discussing why the NG was there in the first place and why they shot--it's all interrelated. I've seen no one opine that those engaged in violent criminal activity weren't solely to blame from their own misfortune. If you have, help me out, quote them. I don't believe free speech includes violent criminal acts. If you've seen others here that do, then your issue is with them, not me. I most certainly can discuss the innocent lives lost without assigning culpability to those innocents. That's the only reason I'm here: to counter the patently horseshit idea that because some of the dead and wounded were the cause of their own misfortune, all were. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:34:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somehow if it was ME panicking and shooting the wrong people, no matter what the circumstances i dont think i'd be getting a pass Doc.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The NG didn't intend to shoot an ROTC student a half a football field away. The panicked. Their vision was impaired by gas masks and they fired blindly when they were ( possibly) fired upon or at least in response to violent acts against them. Stupid and untrained? Certainly. However the bulk of the fault lies with the agitators who committed arson and other violent acts. Somehow if it was ME panicking and shooting the wrong people, no matter what the circumstances i dont think i'd be getting a pass Doc.... Eight of them were indicted. The last time I recall this happening in New Jersey, the State Police opened up on the driver of a stolen truck by a Turnpike tollbooth. They hit several people, including one of the troopers. No charges. It's happened several times in New York, too. You keep saying they panicked. Somebody shot at them. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 11:50:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And most of the folks who ended up with M-2 Ball insertions were WELL Away from where the protesters were Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. And most of the folks who ended up with M-2 Ball insertions were WELL Away from where the protesters were Less than 300 yards is not "well away", and if there are riots, tear gas, and buildings burning down, that might be a good day to skip class altogether - don't you agree? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:01:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen no one opine that those engaged in violent criminal activity weren't solely to blame from their own misfortune. If you have, help me out, quote them. I don't believe free speech includes violent criminal acts. If you've seen others here that do, then your issue is with them, not me. I most certainly can discuss the innocent lives lost without assigning culpability to those innocents. That's the only reason I'm here: to counter the patently horseshit idea that because some of the dead and wounded were the cause of their own misfortune, all were. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view? Have I said anything remotely similar? By the same token, there are some here who say that it's and example of statist Jack-booted thugs who got off on shooting noncombatants , but that's not true either. No, have I or anyone else expressed anything remotely similar to the idea that those killed or wounded while actively engaged in violent criminal acts weren't solely to blame for their own misfortune? I'm not going to get embroiled in a pissing contest apportioning blame for the killing and wounding of innocents between the agitators and the Guard. I will, however, be happy to discuss the idea that those innocent of any wrongdoing were somehow to blame for their own misfortune. Actually there have been many a "statist Jack-booted thug repressing free speech" comment in the thread--I've simply pointed out that that isn't an accurate representation of the situation. If you only want to limit discussion on a complex issue to single, myopic, and narrow point, what can one do? You can't discuss the innocent lives lost without discussing why the NG was there in the first place and why they shot--it's all interrelated. I've seen no one opine that those engaged in violent criminal activity weren't solely to blame from their own misfortune. If you have, help me out, quote them. I don't believe free speech includes violent criminal acts. If you've seen others here that do, then your issue is with them, not me. I most certainly can discuss the innocent lives lost without assigning culpability to those innocents. That's the only reason I'm here: to counter the patently horseshit idea that because some of the dead and wounded were the cause of their own misfortune, all were. Baltimore is supposed to be particularly nice in April. I'll bet you didn't go there this year. We preach situational awareness on this site as if it's life or death and at times, it is. I can't understand why anyone aside from the agitators went to the school on Monday. Once they got there and saw the army with rifles facing the protesters, it's time to go. Again, it's a shame that innocents were shot and killed, but people in this thread discuss it like the Guardsmen walked up to a drum circle and started shooting because they didn't like hippies. That's not what happened. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:01:20 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does your technique for attending college include going to class? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class? Not during a riot - no. Police had been driving around with a bullhorn addressing everyone to disperse. All that did was get the jeep pelted with rocks. Let's review - shall we? Friday night downtown was looted and burned Saturday, ROTC building burned, firemen and cops attacked, Guard arrives, one student bayoneted. Sunday, curfew declared, curfew defied, couple more students bayoneted. Monday - after the tear gas, rocks, and allegedly a sniper, 4 dead - two of which were, in fact, involved in the protest. 2 of the deceased were walking to class - inexplicably, instead heading for the tall timber. I ask because that's what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree?
Be better to skip class that day and stay home. Wouldn't you agree? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:02:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:The people walking peaceably to class a football field's distance away, what was their crime?
No crime - just piss-poor judgment. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:08:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view?
By the way, considerably more than half a football field away: Official reports stated that Schroeder was actually 382 feet from the National Guard at the time he was shot, while lying on the ground facing away from the Guardsmen. 1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:15:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I've seen no one opine that those engaged in violent criminal activity weren't solely to blame from their own misfortune. If you have, help me out, quote them. I don't believe free speech includes violent criminal acts. If you've seen others here that do, then your issue is with them, not me.
I most certainly can discuss the innocent lives lost without assigning culpability to those innocents. That's the only reason I'm here: to counter the patently horseshit idea that because some of the dead and wounded were the cause of their own misfortune, all were. Since you choose to tilt at this particular windmill: ALL blame for ALL the property damage, death, and injury rests, legally and morally, upon those that committed the unlawful acts - the violent protestors. That having been said, National Guard wasn't really trained for crowd or riot control, nor were they equipped for that. Kent State helped change that. Also, leadership of the Guard failed - all the way from the NCOs to the officers, up to the governor. They aren't at FAULT - but they could, and should have done much better. Lastly, there is NO legal or moral "fault" on the part of those just "going to class". It is, however, an example of poor situational awareness and poor judgment. Do you disagree? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:15:52 AM EDT
[#26]
I'm
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not during a riot - no. Police had been driving around with a bullhorn addressing everyone to disperse. All that did was get the jeep pelted with rocks. Let's review - shall we? Friday night downtown was looted and burned Saturday, ROTC building burned, firemen and cops attacked, Guard arrives, one student bayoneted. Sunday, curfew declared, curfew defied, couple more students bayoneted. Monday - after the tear gas, rocks, and allegedly a sniper, 4 dead - two of which were, in fact, involved in the protest. 2 of the deceased were walking to class - inexplicably, instead heading for the tall timber. Be better to skip class that day and stay home. Wouldn't you agree? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class? Not during a riot - no. Police had been driving around with a bullhorn addressing everyone to disperse. All that did was get the jeep pelted with rocks. Let's review - shall we? Friday night downtown was looted and burned Saturday, ROTC building burned, firemen and cops attacked, Guard arrives, one student bayoneted. Sunday, curfew declared, curfew defied, couple more students bayoneted. Monday - after the tear gas, rocks, and allegedly a sniper, 4 dead - two of which were, in fact, involved in the protest. 2 of the deceased were walking to class - inexplicably, instead heading for the tall timber. I ask because that's what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree?
Be better to skip class that day and stay home. Wouldn't you agree? Not even a good weasel. Don't you think it would tale a hell of an arm to throw a chunk of concrete 230 yards? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:18:20 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not even a good weasel. Don't you think it would tale a hell of an arm to throw a chunk of concrete 230 yards? Don't you think it would take a hell of an idiot to "walk to class" in the vicinity of an ongoing riot? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:18:54 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. That's a pretty ignorant remark, especially after I made a post about a page back as a witness to those times. I described the typical situation found on campuses that were experiencing unrest back then. Students with NO involvement whatsoever could easily find themselves in the no-mans-land between the protestors and authorities with NO forewarning. Staying "away from the riot" might be more guesswork and luck than conscious planning for those not involved. With such a situation, it's easy to see how non-protestors could have been hurt at KSU. And to the rocket scientists who say "skip class the day of riots"....nice thought, but one doesn't necessarily get advance notice of riots, and is thus able to plan around them. On top of this, many of my professors in Engineering school would give a student a big fat zero for missing that week's test or failure to hand in your homework because of some campus unrest. Unless the Eniginerring buildings were burning, you were expected in class. This was'nt the Liberal Arts College, where class attendance was optional! |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:23:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view?
By the way, considerably more than half a football field away: Official reports stated that Schroeder was actually 382 feet from the National Guard at the time he was shot, while lying on the ground facing away from the Guardsmen. 1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. Were the dead and wounded going peaceably about their business responsible for there own misfortune? Yes or no? It really is a simple question. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:26:20 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view?
By the way, considerably more than half a football field away: Official reports stated that Schroeder was actually 382 feet from the National Guard at the time he was shot, while lying on the ground facing away from the Guardsmen. 1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. So in your opinion those students killed or wounded were responsible for their own misfortune. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:28:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Were the dead and wounded going peaceably about their business responsible for there own misfortune? Yes or no? It really is a simple question. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view?
By the way, considerably more than half a football field away: Official reports stated that Schroeder was actually 382 feet from the National Guard at the time he was shot, while lying on the ground facing away from the Guardsmen. 1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. Were the dead and wounded going peaceably about their business responsible for there own misfortune? Yes or no? It really is a simple question. Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:31:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Setting fire to the ROTC building wasn't a great idea.
The students who got killed may have gotten caught in the cross fire, but the responsibility lies with the violent protesters, not the National Guard troops. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:32:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since you choose to tilt at this particular windmill: ALL blame for ALL the property damage, death, and injury rests, legally and morally, upon those that committed the unlawful acts - the violent protestors. That having been said, National Guard wasn't really trained for crowd or riot control, nor were they equipped for that. Kent State helped change that. Also, leadership of the Guard failed - all the way from the NCOs to the officers, up to the governor. They aren't at FAULT - but they could, and should have done much better. Lastly, there is NO legal or moral "fault" on the part of those just "going to class". It is, however, an example of poor situational awareness and poor judgment. Do you disagree? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:I've seen no one opine that those engaged in violent criminal activity weren't solely to blame from their own misfortune. If you have, help me out, quote them. I don't believe free speech includes violent criminal acts. If you've seen others here that do, then your issue is with them, not me.
I most certainly can discuss the innocent lives lost without assigning culpability to those innocents. That's the only reason I'm here: to counter the patently horseshit idea that because some of the dead and wounded were the cause of their own misfortune, all were. Since you choose to tilt at this particular windmill: ALL blame for ALL the property damage, death, and injury rests, legally and morally, upon those that committed the unlawful acts - the violent protestors. That having been said, National Guard wasn't really trained for crowd or riot control, nor were they equipped for that. Kent State helped change that. Also, leadership of the Guard failed - all the way from the NCOs to the officers, up to the governor. They aren't at FAULT - but they could, and should have done much better. Lastly, there is NO legal or moral "fault" on the part of those just "going to class". It is, however, an example of poor situational awareness and poor judgment. Do you disagree? OK, so you don't think the students who were not participating in violent, criminal acts were responsible for their misfortune. I agree. I have no opinion on the issue of the innocent student's judgement or SA since it is irrelevant to the culpability for their misfortune. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:35:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't you think it would take a hell of an idiot to "walk to class" in the vicinity of an ongoing riot? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not even a good weasel. Don't you think it would tale a hell of an arm to throw a chunk of concrete 230 yards? Don't you think it would take a hell of an idiot to "walk to class" in the vicinity of an ongoing riot? The same irrelevant weasel as before unless you believe that makes them culpable for their misfortune. Do you? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:36:50 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Agreed. Existing law covers all this shit. If you were a guardsman or policeman involved--- If you throw rocks/spikes/bricks at them which could cause death or serious bodily injury---your ass is getting lawfully shot and if your survive, you're going to prison. If you try to burn them alive with molotovs which could cause death or serious bodily injury---your ass is getting lawfully shot and if you survive, you're going to prison. If you try to participate in a riot, you're getting beaten, gassed, arrested, and you're going to prison. Pretty simple stuff, really. Don't start none, won't be none. 
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:39:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Interesting thread. I didn't really know much about the incident other than the "peaceful students shot for exercising their first amendment right" narrative that the media has pushed ever since I was a kid. Lot of interesting information in here. For example, I never heard about (or saw) the bullet hole in the statue before.
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:40:40 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:This exchange isn't about assigning culpability between the protestors and the Guard. It's a response to a member who apparently believes that those killed or wounded while going peaceably about their business in a place they had every right to be were responsible for their own misfortune. Do you share his view?
By the way, considerably more than half a football field away: Official reports stated that Schroeder was actually 382 feet from the National Guard at the time he was shot, while lying on the ground facing away from the Guardsmen. 1. University was stupid beyond stupid not to cancel classes. Surprised they didn't get their ass sued off. 2. Individual professors were stupid beyond stupid to even hold classes. 3. We all bear responsibility for situational awareness. There are plenty of places I "have a perfect right to be" that I am not going to be at. A riot is one of them. Pro tip - when folks are throwing rocks at other folks with guns - don't be there - whether that is Ferguson, Kent State, "Palestine", Belfast, or South Africa. Were the dead and wounded going peaceably about their business responsible for there own misfortune? Yes or no? It really is a simple question. Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. An obvious contradiction. How can blame for the innocent students misfortune be placed on the others if those students were responsible for their own misfortune? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:45:05 AM EDT
[#38]
An obvious contradiction. How can blame for the innocent students misfortune be placed on the others if those students were responsible for their own misfortune? Please tell me where I blamed the innocent students in my post: Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. Like others have said, this is analogous to innocent bystanders getting hit in the crossfire of a police shooting of a violent crime. I did not blame the innocent victims, I blamed the violent agitators that intended to draw fire. If you want to blame poor training, poor marksmanship, or an unruly, violent mob, I wouldn't disagree with you. But the people that are stating ZOMG THE ARMY IS MOWING DOWN PEACEFUL PROTESTERS could not be more wrong. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:47:19 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. Existing law covers all this shit. If you were a guardsman or policeman involved--- If you throw rocks/spikes/bricks at them which could cause death or serious bodily injury---your ass is getting lawfully shot and if your survive, you're going to prison. If you try to burn them alive with molotovs which could cause death or serious bodily injury---your ass is getting lawfully shot and if you survive, you're going to prison. If you try to participate in a riot, you're getting beaten, gassed, arrested, and you're going to prison. Pretty simple stuff, really. Don't start none, won't be none.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Problem is that the NG managed to NOT shoot the correct people... I'll say it again, there were certainly people there that probably needed to get shot.....the NG Dudes panicking and shooting blindly did not manage to do that. Shitty/no training, lack of leadership, kids in WAY over their heads...it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they shot up people who were innocents. Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class. I ask because that what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree? The first arson was Friday night. The second was Saturday morning. The Governor declared martial law on Saturday. The Guard troops fired tear gas at the protesters at two different times on Sunday. The shootings happened on Monday. The protesters armed themselves with baseball bats, golf clubs, and cut pieces of heavy cable. Somebody shot at the NG. None of this was a surprise. It gets painted as a gathering of innocents but it wasn't. Agreed. Existing law covers all this shit. If you were a guardsman or policeman involved--- If you throw rocks/spikes/bricks at them which could cause death or serious bodily injury---your ass is getting lawfully shot and if your survive, you're going to prison. If you try to burn them alive with molotovs which could cause death or serious bodily injury---your ass is getting lawfully shot and if you survive, you're going to prison. If you try to participate in a riot, you're getting beaten, gassed, arrested, and you're going to prison. Pretty simple stuff, really. Don't start none, won't be none.
Many of those shot weren't involved. So they didn't start none, should have been none. Where does unaimed volley fire without orders fall in your little "If you..." explanation? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:49:20 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Throw rocks at soldiers in 1770: Heroic martyrs of liberty. Throw rocks at soldiers in 1970: Hippie fucks! Git some! Git some! The Brits were probably justified in shooting the rioters in Boston, especially if the rioters were in fact throwing rocks. Rocks represent lethal force. Liberty does not include riotous and tumultuous behaviour, assault with deadly weapons, arson, vandalism, and such. Some of these things do justify the use of deadly force and in the past could warrant the death penalty in this country, and rightfully so. That the cause was subversive or even borderline traitorous makes it all the worse. The problem in this case was that the wrong people were shot as the result of poor training and panic, not that shots were fired. That crowd deserved bullets being fired at it. I don't understand where people here are getting the idea that violence and disorder are rights on par with freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, etc. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:51:36 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look up how the National Guard functions. It was the governor and state AG, as well as state police and town PD, who had control over that company of Ohio Nat'l Guard. All of them could have insisted on a trial. They were the ones who failed to try those soldiers and their commander for murder. Go troll another thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Maybe if the Kent PD and State police did their job then the Nat'l Guard shooters, state employees, would have faced justice. One doesn't excuse the other. Nice try. Look up how the National Guard functions. It was the governor and state AG, as well as state police and town PD, who had control over that company of Ohio Nat'l Guard. All of them could have insisted on a trial. They were the ones who failed to try those soldiers and their commander for murder. Go troll another thread. At worst, it was manslaughter (which is the exact same point John Adams made in favour of the British soldiers he defended). |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:23:51 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please tell me where I blamed the innocent students in my post: Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. Like others have said, this is analogous to innocent bystanders getting hit in the crossfire of a police shooting of a violent crime. I did not blame the innocent victims, I blamed the violent agitators that intended to draw fire. If you want to blame poor training, poor marksmanship, or an unruly, violent mob, I wouldn't disagree with you. But the people that are stating ZOMG THE ARMY IS MOWING DOWN PEACEFUL PROTESTERS could not be more wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
An obvious contradiction. How can blame for the innocent students misfortune be placed on the others if those students were responsible for their own misfortune? Please tell me where I blamed the innocent students in my post: Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. Like others have said, this is analogous to innocent bystanders getting hit in the crossfire of a police shooting of a violent crime. I did not blame the innocent victims, I blamed the violent agitators that intended to draw fire. If you want to blame poor training, poor marksmanship, or an unruly, violent mob, I wouldn't disagree with you. But the people that are stating ZOMG THE ARMY IS MOWING DOWN PEACEFUL PROTESTERS could not be more wrong. Here, in the part you edited out: Quoted:
Quoted:
Were the dead and wounded going peaceably about their business responsible for there own misfortune? Yes or no? It really is a simple question. Yes, they were. And their deaths were tragedies. I lay the blame on the agitators that drew the fire. Like others have said, it was far from a peaceful protest, or people exercising free speech. Now, I'll ask you again: if the students going peaceably about their perfectly legitimate business - walking across campus from one class to another, for example - were responsible for their own misfortune, how can someone else be to blame? I never said anything about anyone mowing down peaceful protestors. If you believe differently, quote me. Otherwise, you would do better to direct your arguments to someone who actually holds that opinion. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 1:24:38 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't you think it would take a hell of an idiot to "walk to class" in the vicinity of an ongoing riot? Congratulations. This is the dumbest post of the day. School was in session and students were expected to go to class. There's a bit of revisionist history going on in this thread. The mayor of Kent had declared a state of emergency, but the governor never actually declared or sought martial law. A minor point, but it's inaccurate to say that martial law had been declared. There was no riot at the time. Despite later allegations, no Dixie cups filled with cement and nails were ever recovered. However, that borders on semantics as it is not under dispute that there were people in the crowd throwing rocks. Despite later allegations, there is no physical proof or even any witnesses (not even the guardsmen) who could testify that they saw the National Guard take fire before 29 of the 77 guardsmen (a figure self-reported by the National Guard) panic-fired on the crowd.... and a few witnesses who claim that they saw Sgt. Pryor fire his (1911) pistol immediately before the rifle fire. Do the protestors deserve a lot of the blame? Hell yeah. They ignored numerous lawful orders to disperse. Do the guardsmen who fired deserve a lot of the blame? Hell yeah. Firing indiscriminately into a crowd can rightly be called a massacre. It was a shit sandwich all around. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 7:56:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Congratulations. This is the dumbest post of the day. School was in session and students were expected to go to class. There's a bit of revisionist history going on in this thread. The mayor of Kent had declared a state of emergency, but the governor never actually declared or sought martial law. A minor point, but it's inaccurate to say that martial law had been declared. There was no riot at the time. Despite later allegations, no Dixie cups filled with cement and nails were ever recovered. However, that borders on semantics as it is not under dispute that there were people in the crowd throwing rocks. Despite later allegations, there is no physical proof or even any witnesses (not even the guardsmen) who could testify that they saw the National Guard take fire before 29 of the 77 guardsmen (a figure self-reported by the National Guard) panic-fired on the crowd.... and a few witnesses who claim that they saw Sgt. Pryor fire his (1911) pistol immediately before the rifle fire. Do the protestors deserve a lot of the blame? Hell yeah. They ignored numerous lawful orders to disperse. Do the guardsmen who fired deserve a lot of the blame? Hell yeah. Firing indiscriminately into a crowd can rightly be called a massacre. It was a shit sandwich all around. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't you think it would take a hell of an idiot to "walk to class" in the vicinity of an ongoing riot? Congratulations. This is the dumbest post of the day. School was in session and students were expected to go to class. There's a bit of revisionist history going on in this thread. The mayor of Kent had declared a state of emergency, but the governor never actually declared or sought martial law. A minor point, but it's inaccurate to say that martial law had been declared. There was no riot at the time. Despite later allegations, no Dixie cups filled with cement and nails were ever recovered. However, that borders on semantics as it is not under dispute that there were people in the crowd throwing rocks. Despite later allegations, there is no physical proof or even any witnesses (not even the guardsmen) who could testify that they saw the National Guard take fire before 29 of the 77 guardsmen (a figure self-reported by the National Guard) panic-fired on the crowd.... and a few witnesses who claim that they saw Sgt. Pryor fire his (1911) pistol immediately before the rifle fire. Do the protestors deserve a lot of the blame? Hell yeah. They ignored numerous lawful orders to disperse. Do the guardsmen who fired deserve a lot of the blame? Hell yeah. Firing indiscriminately into a crowd can rightly be called a massacre. It was a shit sandwich all around. Thanks for going through the trouble of posting that because there have been several revisionist memes constantly repeated throughout this thread to the effect that.. A) Martial Law was declared.....it was not B) It was determined that troops had been fired on.....it was not. C) individuals who were going about their business and attending class were being foolish or reckless....they were not due to the climate on campuses those days there were frequently demonstrations yet one still needed to attend class. D) There were concrete filled Dixie cups with spikes embedded in them that we're being hurled at the troops.......none was ever recovered. On more than one occasion my non-protesting friends and I found ourselves stuck in an area of our campus where violent members of the Weather Underground and SDS, who were not students, subverted non violent campus protests and things became ugly fast. Bags of rocks appeared out of nowhere and hurling rocks at police and throwing them through glass windows injuring students attending class occurred with false spontaneity. Thankfully there were no troops firing into "the crowd" or I might have well been shot simply for going to class. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:03:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm Not even a good weasel. Don't you think it would tale a hell of an arm to throw a chunk of concrete 230 yards? Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm Quoted:
Quoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. Does your technique for attending college include going to class? Not during a riot - no. Police had been driving around with a bullhorn addressing everyone to disperse. All that did was get the jeep pelted with rocks. Let's review - shall we? Friday night downtown was looted and burned Saturday, ROTC building burned, firemen and cops attacked, Guard arrives, one student bayoneted. Sunday, curfew declared, curfew defied, couple more students bayoneted. Monday - after the tear gas, rocks, and allegedly a sniper, 4 dead - two of which were, in fact, involved in the protest. 2 of the deceased were walking to class - inexplicably, instead heading for the tall timber. I ask because that's what two of the four deceased were doing as, well as a number of those wounded, some of the latter as much as 250 yards away from the Guardsmen. Take a hell of an arm to throw one of those legendary nail-studded concrete Dixie cups that far, wouldn't you agree?
Be better to skip class that day and stay home. Wouldn't you agree? Not even a good weasel. Don't you think it would tale a hell of an arm to throw a chunk of concrete 230 yards? You don't seriously think the NG intended to shoot an innocent bystander 230 yards away do you? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:05:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Brits were probably justified in shooting the rioters in Boston, especially if the rioters were in fact throwing rocks. Rocks represent lethal force. Liberty does not include riotous and tumultuous behaviour, assault with deadly weapons, arson, vandalism, and such. Some of these things do justify the use of deadly force and in the past could warrant the death penalty in this country, and rightfully so. That the cause was subversive or even borderline traitorous makes it all the worse. The problem in this case was that the wrong people were shot as the result of poor training and panic, not that shots were fired. That crowd deserved bullets being fired at it. I don't understand where people here are getting the idea that violence and disorder are rights on par with freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Throw rocks at soldiers in 1770: Heroic martyrs of liberty. Throw rocks at soldiers in 1970: Hippie fucks! Git some! Git some! The Brits were probably justified in shooting the rioters in Boston, especially if the rioters were in fact throwing rocks. Rocks represent lethal force. Liberty does not include riotous and tumultuous behaviour, assault with deadly weapons, arson, vandalism, and such. Some of these things do justify the use of deadly force and in the past could warrant the death penalty in this country, and rightfully so. That the cause was subversive or even borderline traitorous makes it all the worse. The problem in this case was that the wrong people were shot as the result of poor training and panic, not that shots were fired. That crowd deserved bullets being fired at it. I don't understand where people here are getting the idea that violence and disorder are rights on par with freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, etc. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:26:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One man's violent rebel/terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Brits were probably justified in shooting the rioters in Boston, especially if the rioters were in fact throwing rocks. Rocks represent lethal force. Liberty does not include riotous and tumultuous behaviour, assault with deadly weapons, arson, vandalism, and such. Some of these things do justify the use of deadly force and in the past could warrant the death penalty in this country, and rightfully so. That the cause was subversive or even borderline traitorous makes it all the worse. The problem in this case was that the wrong people were shot as the result of poor training and panic, not that shots were fired. That crowd deserved bullets being fired at it. I don't understand where people here are getting the idea that violence and disorder are rights on par with freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, etc. I abhor senseless violence. Purposeful violence, on the other hand, is another matter entirely. If you're gonna be a freedom fighter, you better be on the right side. Mine for the purposes of this discussion. If a well trained force shoots looters and rioters on sight, I have no problem with this. Not the case at KS, but from a moral (not legal) standpoint the proximate cause of the incident, IMO, was rioting communist agitators. The cause in fact, of course, was the NG discharging their rifles. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:31:02 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I abhor senseless violence. Purposeful violence, on the other hand, is another matter entirely. If you're gonna be a freedom fighter, you better be on the right side. Mine for the purposes of this discussion. If a well trained force shoots looters and rioters on sight, I have no problem with this. Not the case at KS, but from a moral (not legal) standpoint the proximate cause of the incident, IMO, was rioting communist agitators. The cause in fact, of course, was the NG discharging their rifles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Brits were probably justified in shooting the rioters in Boston, especially if the rioters were in fact throwing rocks. Rocks represent lethal force. Liberty does not include riotous and tumultuous behaviour, assault with deadly weapons, arson, vandalism, and such. Some of these things do justify the use of deadly force and in the past could warrant the death penalty in this country, and rightfully so. That the cause was subversive or even borderline traitorous makes it all the worse. The problem in this case was that the wrong people were shot as the result of poor training and panic, not that shots were fired. That crowd deserved bullets being fired at it. I don't understand where people here are getting the idea that violence and disorder are rights on par with freedom of speech, peaceable assembly, etc. I abhor senseless violence. Purposeful violence, on the other hand, is another matter entirely. If you're gonna be a freedom fighter, you better be on the right side. Mine for the purposes of this discussion. If a well trained force shoots looters and rioters on sight, I have no problem with this. Not the case at KS, but from a moral (not legal) standpoint the proximate cause of the incident, IMO, was rioting communist agitators. The cause in fact, of course, was the NG discharging their rifles. When does one have the right to go from peaceful protests and marches to violence? As for the NG at KSU, they fucked up. Simple as that. |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:34:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't seriously think the NG intended to shoot an innocent bystander 230 yards away do you? What I think and what they intended are both irrelevant to whether the innocent students killed or wounded were responsible for their own misfortune. I have neither condemned the Guard or sought to exculpate those engaged in violent criminal behavior. You seem to be arguing against a position that I have not taken. Why? |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 8:39:26 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a pretty ignorant remark, especially after I made a post about a page back as a witness to those times. I described the typical situation found on campuses that were experiencing unrest back then. Students with NO involvement whatsoever could easily find themselves in the no-mans-land between the protestors and authorities with NO forewarning. Staying "away from the riot" might be more guesswork and luck than conscious planning for those not involved. With such a situation, it's easy to see how non-protestors could have been hurt at KSU. And to the rocket scientists who say "skip class the day of riots"....nice thought, but one doesn't necessarily get advance notice of riots, and is thus able to plan around them. On top of this, many of my professors in Engineering school would give a student a big fat zero for missing that week's test or failure to hand in your homework because of some campus unrest. Unless the Eniginerring buildings were burning, you were expected in class. This was'nt the Liberal Arts College, where class attendance was optional! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Personally, my technique to avoid getting shot at a riot is to stay the hell away from a riot. That's a pretty ignorant remark, especially after I made a post about a page back as a witness to those times. I described the typical situation found on campuses that were experiencing unrest back then. Students with NO involvement whatsoever could easily find themselves in the no-mans-land between the protestors and authorities with NO forewarning. Staying "away from the riot" might be more guesswork and luck than conscious planning for those not involved. With such a situation, it's easy to see how non-protestors could have been hurt at KSU. And to the rocket scientists who say "skip class the day of riots"....nice thought, but one doesn't necessarily get advance notice of riots, and is thus able to plan around them. On top of this, many of my professors in Engineering school would give a student a big fat zero for missing that week's test or failure to hand in your homework because of some campus unrest. Unless the Eniginerring buildings were burning, you were expected in class. This was'nt the Liberal Arts College, where class attendance was optional! Horseshit. The part bolded clearly does not apply to this case. The trouble started last Friday. Burning down the ROTC building is what we call a "clue". Better to get a zero - or die? |
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