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Posted: 10/3/2015 5:08:55 PM EDT
[#1]
Any updates?
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Posted: 10/3/2015 5:16:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any updates? They're still searching in hurricane force winds. Last I heard is that they've covered 850 sq. miles. Joaquin is approaching CAT-5 status. There are still 15' to 20' waves in the search area. Water temps remain warm. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 5:29:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any way to tune in on my computer? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A bit of activity on the the USCG SAR frequency 5696 USB. I'll tune that up, thanks. Any way to tune in on my computer? Try here: http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/ |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 7:19:24 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 10/3/2015 7:32:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Sadly I think tomorrow will be the day. Storm will have pretty much cleared the area. They will probably start finding containers floating or washed up on one of the islands. Hopefully they will also find the crew alive. Anyone have any idea of which direction things will float after the storm clears the area ??
Prayers for all involved and the families. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:04:36 PM EDT
[#6]
8PM news brief I just heard said they still have not found a thing...nothing
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:06:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
8PM news brief I just heard said they still have not found a thing...nothing not good.... |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:10:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sadly I think tomorrow will be the day. Storm will have pretty much cleared the area. They will probably start finding containers floating or washed up on one of the islands. Hopefully they will also find the crew alive. Anyone have any idea of which direction things will float after the storm clears the area ?? Prayers for all involved and the families. Here's a glimpse at the currents in the area. She was last spotted well off Elbow Cay - which is the top-right landmass in the Bahamas, and kind of looks like, well, an elbow. This map suggests anything in that area will be pulled north/northeast at about 1 knot - in to the north Atlantic. 
Wave heights are forecasted to remain an average of 10' to 15' (which means many waves will be 20'+). 
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:10:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 10,000'? It's off the shelf of the Abacos. I hit 9,000'+ out there if memory serves, and I wasn't out that far. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How deep is the water in the area where the ship seems to be lost ? Sad event, prayers for all souls onboard.  10,000'? It's off the shelf of the Abacos. I hit 9,000'+ out there if memory serves, and I wasn't out that far. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:16:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Coast Guard spokesman on Fox news said they had found a life ring from the ship. Does not sound good to me.
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:21:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I took a cruise a while back and I remember looking at the info channel in the cabin that gives ship info...course, speed, and depth...I remember it being like 15,000 to 18,000 just east of the Bahamas. Yes - I pulled up my MFD (nav system on the boat) an hour ago, and it's 13,000'+ in that area. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:21:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coast Guard spokesman on Fox news said they had found a life ring from the ship. Does not sound good to me. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:22:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes - I pulled up my MFD (nav system on the boat) an hour ago, and it's 13,000'+ in that area. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I took a cruise a while back and I remember looking at the info channel in the cabin that gives ship info...course, speed, and depth...I remember it being like 15,000 to 18,000 just east of the Bahamas. Yes - I pulled up my MFD (nav system on the boat) an hour ago, and it's 13,000'+ in that area.  |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:25:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Coast Guard spokesman on Fox news said they had found a life ring from the ship. Does not sound good to me. I can't speak the large merchant mariners like this vessel, but things fall off ships all the time. The ones that float really well (like a life ring) hang on the surface for a long time. Just this year I've passed hundreds of balloons, a dozen Cuban refugee craft (abandoned), a dozen life rings, almost a hundred life vests, and more trash than I care to think about. Pop a 100 mph+ wind, and things like life rings tend to find their way loose. I don't know how they store them in large vessels, but a lot of times in smaller vessels life rings are left in a clip so they can be quickly deployed. It's not a good sign, but I wouldn't call it the same as finding the wing off an aircraft floating after it went missing. As always, I defer to the merchant mariners who actually know what they're talking about.... ETA: one thing I heard from a USCG rescue pilot a long time ago was to put the name of your boat on EVERYTHING you carry - life rings, life vests, whatever. These items are often used to validate they're at least in the neighborhood of your position, and something that simple can save you life. Of course, an EPIRB or even a PLB is better than that. Those of you that travel offshore - please consider spending the small amount of money (~$250 to $750) for a satellite rescue beacon. I carry a PLB (personal locator beacon) in each of my inflatable life vests. It at least gives anyone overboard a chance. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:27:58 PM EDT
[#15]
From one of the Coast Guard press releases
"“On September 29, the El Faro, one of TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico’s two ships departed Jacksonville en-route to San Juan Puerto Rico. At the time of the El Faro’s departure, the vessel’s officers and crew were monitoring what was then Tropical Storm Joaquin. As of 720am EST on Thursday October 1, TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico lost all communication with the El Faro." It appears that they knew about the tropical storm. Unknown is what the National Hurricane Center forecast was at that time or days later assuming that they can get updates via the internet or radio. Even without updates it appears that they were steaming right into the main portion of that hurricane. I am not a boat person but knowing that there is a tropical system and then encountering the associated overcast, winds and possibly rain, why continue into what seems to be a deadly hazard? The wave data chart above suggests that if they capsized, debris may end up on Abacao Island. I did not note any reports of EPIRB signals in the USCG releases to include when and where they got the first signal and how long the signals continued. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:34:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In 100+ winds and sea's. I hope your right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well if the ship did sink hopefully they got their survival suits on. They could last days in the water. In 100+ winds and sea's. I hope your right. The water temp isn't too bad, so they have that going for them. Gives a little time. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:36:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It appears that they knew about the tropical storm. Unknown is what the National Hurricane Center forecast was at that time or days later assuming that they can get updates via the internet or radio. We listen to the morning weather forecasts every day at 8:30 a.m. in the Bahamas - broadcast on VHF with very up-to-date weather info. Information is available. I picked up the weather broadcasts VERY clearly off Elbow Cay. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:37:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't speak the large merchant mariners like this vessel, but things fall off ships all the time. The ones that float really well (like a life ring) hang on the surface for a long time. Just this year I've passed hundreds of balloons, a dozen Cuban refugee craft (abandoned), a dozen life rings, almost a hundred life vests, and more trash than I care to think about. Pop a 100 mph+ wind, and things like life rings tend to find their way loose. I don't know how they store them in large vessels, but a lot of times in smaller vessels life rings are left in a clip so they can be quickly deployed. It's not a good sign, but I wouldn't call it the same as finding the wing off an aircraft floating after it went missing. As always, I defer to the merchant mariners who actually know what they're talking about.... ETA: one thing I heard from a USCG rescue pilot a long time ago was to put the name of your boat on EVERYTHING you carry - life rings, life vests, whatever. These items are often used to validate they're at least in the neighborhood of your position, and something that simple can save you life. Of course, an EPIRB or even a PLB is better than that. Those of you that travel offshore - please consider spending the small amount of money (~$250 to $750) for a satellite rescue beacon. I carry a PLB (personal locator beacon) in each of my inflatable life vests. It at least gives anyone overboard a chance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Coast Guard spokesman on Fox news said they had found a life ring from the ship. Does not sound good to me. I can't speak the large merchant mariners like this vessel, but things fall off ships all the time. The ones that float really well (like a life ring) hang on the surface for a long time. Just this year I've passed hundreds of balloons, a dozen Cuban refugee craft (abandoned), a dozen life rings, almost a hundred life vests, and more trash than I care to think about. Pop a 100 mph+ wind, and things like life rings tend to find their way loose. I don't know how they store them in large vessels, but a lot of times in smaller vessels life rings are left in a clip so they can be quickly deployed. It's not a good sign, but I wouldn't call it the same as finding the wing off an aircraft floating after it went missing. As always, I defer to the merchant mariners who actually know what they're talking about.... ETA: one thing I heard from a USCG rescue pilot a long time ago was to put the name of your boat on EVERYTHING you carry - life rings, life vests, whatever. These items are often used to validate they're at least in the neighborhood of your position, and something that simple can save you life. Of course, an EPIRB or even a PLB is better than that. Those of you that travel offshore - please consider spending the small amount of money (~$250 to $750) for a satellite rescue beacon. I carry a PLB (personal locator beacon) in each of my inflatable life vests. It at least gives anyone overboard a chance. I had a 25-man life raft wash away three weeks ago. We were ballasted down to 95,000 tons, just shy of the heavy weather ballast condition. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:39:10 PM EDT
[#19]
I can't recount any year in recent history that so many people have gone missing off of FL and in the Bahamas other than this year....
This year has been brutal for that. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:39:28 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:40:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The water temp isn't too bad, so they have that going for them. Gives a little time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well if the ship did sink hopefully they got their survival suits on. They could last days in the water. In 100+ winds and sea's. I hope your right. The water temp isn't too bad, so they have that going for them. Gives a little time. Even if the seas are 80+ degrees hypothermia is still a real concern. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:44:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a 25-man life raft wash away three weeks ago. We were ballasted down to 95,000 tons, just shy of the heavy weather ballast condition.  That's insane. If your avatar picture is your 'ride' and you were ballasted - I'd love to hear more about what wiped your decks of something that large. My father-in-law tells stories of doing watch locked inside of a locker on deck to keep from getting washed over in the destroyer he served on. Mother nature definitely has no sense of humor.
Sorry to keep picking on the availability of information and why they were where they were. I am the "chicken of the sea" - as in, I don't travel if it's ugly. I've often heard it said that the number 1 killer of men on the ocean is a schedule - and I believe it. I'm an amateur on a dinky little boat, but I hang out with the 100'+ crowd. It always amazed me how often I told them about weather warnings, and they had no idea. I don't know if it's complacency or competence, and again - I am not second-guessing these men who are (hopefully) fighting for their lives. I like to learn from other people, though, and this is something I've never understood. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:45:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Gcaptain just reported that a life ring from the ship was found in the search area, not much news. but it's something
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10153577368628886&id=27223368885&pnref=story |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:52:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why keep all the crap on deck like that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've seen rough seas but we also displaced 90,000 tons... <a href="http://s808.photobucket.com/user/serinobw/media/Washover.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz7/serinobw/Washover.jpg</a> <a href="http://s808.photobucket.com/user/serinobw/media/waveoverbow22jan00.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz7/serinobw/waveoverbow22jan00.jpg</a> When Hurricanes were coming in we'd pull out and stay on the out skirts. Choppy, big swells but I couldn't imagen going into the heart of a category 4 hurricane in that POS! My buddy got into Merchant Marine work after getting out. I'll text him see if he knows anything. Why keep all the crap on deck like that? No other way. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:53:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry to keep picking on the availability of information and why they were where they were. I am the "chicken of the sea" - as in, I don't travel if it's ugly. I've often heard it said that the number 1 killer of men on the ocean is a schedule - and I believe it. I'm an amateur on a dinky little boat, but I hang out with the 100'+ crowd. It always amazed me how often I told them about weather warnings, and they had no idea. I don't know if it's complacency or competence, and again - I am not second-guessing these men who are (hopefully) fighting for their lives. I like to learn from other people, though, and this is something I've never understood. One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. Several years ago two guys took off from an airport in Las Cruces NM. Reportedly it was a birthday of one of the two people on the plane. They flew into a thunderstorm cell, crashed and both died. They could have left 30 minutes to an hour or more earlier, waited until the cell passed or waited until the next day. People fall asleep driving and die because they won't pull over when they are tired. I can't tell you how to stop it. All I can do is try to prevent it from killing me. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 8:53:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't recount any year in recent history that so many people have gone missing off of FL and in the Bahamas other than this year.... This year has been brutal for that. In spite of the complete lack of hurricanes all summer - the winds and waves have been very unpredictable. We had 25+ knot winds blow for almost a month in the Exumas this summer, and we spent weeks hugging the shore. That's more a winter weather pattern than summer. There's also been a metric ton of lightning off the east coast of Florida and the Bahamas, and the low-level winds seemed different than normal. The El Nino kept the hurricanes away, but spawned some relatively local but severe weather patterns. I was in Old Bahama Bay (Grand Bahama) for about a week this summer, and it was pretty ugly out because of a strong easterly wind. People were leaving southern Florida in fairly calm weather, but it kept getting worse and worse by the time they crossed the gulf stream (because the waves got bigger and bigger the more distance the wind had to build them). By the time they got to the Bahamas they were literally in shock. I hit 5' to 8' seas on my way back as it was starting to die down, and I was thankfully taking it on the nose versus on the stern. I still don't understand how some of those ~20' boats made it across that nonsense. Anyway, that's childs play compared to what we're talking here. The normal 20' to 30' boat captain simply isn't prepared for such situations, though, and this summer has been very unpredictable. The loss of the two teenagers off the east coast really shook up people, and apparently safety gear has been flying off the shelves since then. I'm sorry we lost those boys, but I'm glad to see a renewed interest in preparedness on the water. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:01:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. EXACTLY. When it's a leisure trip, it's easy to stop and wait. When it's a commercial trip - not so much. I have some charters coming up in a few weeks, and am already war-gaming how to handle that with weather. When someone is paying exorbitant money for a trip on a fixed schedule - they're not always reasonable. It's easy for me to lose business, though, because I don't rely upon it to make my living. I'd rather sit in port than risk it. It's actually been a bit humbling to read some of the posts in this thread from people I recognize - and never realized what they did for a living. I give you much respect, gentlemen. You do an incredibly dangerous and unappreciated job that pays little, but we all depend on. I'm a little worried you guys have gotten quiet.....
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:11:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In spite of the complete lack of hurricanes all summer - the winds and waves have been very unpredictable. We had 25+ knot winds blow for almost a month in the Exumas this summer, and we spent weeks hugging the shore. That's more a winter weather pattern than summer. There's also been a metric ton of lightning off the east coast of Florida and the Bahamas, and the low-level winds seemed different than normal. The El Nino kept the hurricanes away, but spawned some relatively local but severe weather patterns. I was in Old Bahama Bay (Grand Bahama) for about a week this summer, and it was pretty ugly out because of a strong easterly wind. People were leaving southern Florida in fairly calm weather, but it kept getting worse and worse by the time they crossed the gulf stream (because the waves got bigger and bigger the more distance the wind had to build them). By the time they got to the Bahamas they were literally in shock. I hit 5' to 8' seas on my way back as it was starting to die down, and I was thankfully taking it on the nose versus on the stern. I still don't understand how some of those ~20' boats made it across that nonsense. Anyway, that's childs play compared to what we're talking here. The normal 20' to 30' boat captain simply isn't prepared for such situations, though, and this summer has been very unpredictable. The loss of the two teenagers off the east coast really shook up people, and apparently safety gear has been flying off the shelves since then. I'm sorry we lost those boys, but I'm glad to see a renewed interest in preparedness on the water. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't recount any year in recent history that so many people have gone missing off of FL and in the Bahamas other than this year.... This year has been brutal for that. In spite of the complete lack of hurricanes all summer - the winds and waves have been very unpredictable. We had 25+ knot winds blow for almost a month in the Exumas this summer, and we spent weeks hugging the shore. That's more a winter weather pattern than summer. There's also been a metric ton of lightning off the east coast of Florida and the Bahamas, and the low-level winds seemed different than normal. The El Nino kept the hurricanes away, but spawned some relatively local but severe weather patterns. I was in Old Bahama Bay (Grand Bahama) for about a week this summer, and it was pretty ugly out because of a strong easterly wind. People were leaving southern Florida in fairly calm weather, but it kept getting worse and worse by the time they crossed the gulf stream (because the waves got bigger and bigger the more distance the wind had to build them). By the time they got to the Bahamas they were literally in shock. I hit 5' to 8' seas on my way back as it was starting to die down, and I was thankfully taking it on the nose versus on the stern. I still don't understand how some of those ~20' boats made it across that nonsense. Anyway, that's childs play compared to what we're talking here. The normal 20' to 30' boat captain simply isn't prepared for such situations, though, and this summer has been very unpredictable. The loss of the two teenagers off the east coast really shook up people, and apparently safety gear has been flying off the shelves since then. I'm sorry we lost those boys, but I'm glad to see a renewed interest in preparedness on the water. It entirely depends on the attitude with which you enter the environment. We have 23' diesel zodiacs rated at 8' seas, 250 miles max range and over the horizon capability with HF radio and AIS. Spent years in them. With the right coxswain, I wouldn't hesitate to take that ride. Would I cross from Bimini to Ft Laud in a 22' Boston whaler in 5' seas? FUCK NO. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:12:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
EXACTLY. When it's a leisure trip, it's easy to stop and wait. When it's a commercial trip - not so much. I have some charters coming up in a few weeks, and am already war-gaming how to handle that with weather. When someone is paying exorbitant money for a trip on a fixed schedule - they're not always reasonable. It's easy for me to lose business, though, because I don't rely upon it to make my living. I'd rather sit in port than risk it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. EXACTLY. When it's a leisure trip, it's easy to stop and wait. When it's a commercial trip - not so much. I have some charters coming up in a few weeks, and am already war-gaming how to handle that with weather. When someone is paying exorbitant money for a trip on a fixed schedule - they're not always reasonable. It's easy for me to lose business, though, because I don't rely upon it to make my living. I'd rather sit in port than risk it. Here is my opinion. The ship sank. The crew are all dead. Maybe one or two are rescued. The cargo is lost. If this is true, how does "making a schedule" accomplish anything? They did not make it to their destination. The cargo did not make it on time and 33 people are most likely dead. My suggestion to you is that if your contract with your customers does not allow you to cancel due to safety reasons, you need that. You are the captain. Do not succumb to "get-there-itis." I fly for fun. I have had to make plenty of unplanned overnight stays at unplanned stops due to weather. Even commercial pilots can cancel a flight if conditions are unsafe and I would applaud a pilot on a plane I am on for canceling a flight if the conditions are bad. There is always tomorrow except when you press ahead and die due to a stupid and usually obviously stupid decision. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:17:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's insane. If your avatar picture is your 'ride' and you were ballasted - I'd love to hear more about what wiped your decks of something that large. My father-in-law tells stories of doing watch locked inside of a locker on deck to keep from getting washed over in the destroyer he served on. Mother nature definitely has no sense of humor.
Sorry to keep picking on the availability of information and why they were where they were. I am the "chicken of the sea" - as in, I don't travel if it's ugly. I've often heard it said that the number 1 killer of men on the ocean is a schedule - and I believe it. I'm an amateur on a dinky little boat, but I hang out with the 100'+ crowd. It always amazed me how often I told them about weather warnings, and they had no idea. I don't know if it's complacency or competence, and again - I am not second-guessing these men who are (hopefully) fighting for their lives. I like to learn from other people, though, and this is something I've never understood. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had a 25-man life raft wash away three weeks ago. We were ballasted down to 95,000 tons, just shy of the heavy weather ballast condition. That's insane. If your avatar picture is your 'ride' and you were ballasted - I'd love to hear more about what wiped your decks of something that large. My father-in-law tells stories of doing watch locked inside of a locker on deck to keep from getting washed over in the destroyer he served on. Mother nature definitely has no sense of humor.
Sorry to keep picking on the availability of information and why they were where they were. I am the "chicken of the sea" - as in, I don't travel if it's ugly. I've often heard it said that the number 1 killer of men on the ocean is a schedule - and I believe it. I'm an amateur on a dinky little boat, but I hang out with the 100'+ crowd. It always amazed me how often I told them about weather warnings, and they had no idea. I don't know if it's complacency or competence, and again - I am not second-guessing these men who are (hopefully) fighting for their lives. I like to learn from other people, though, and this is something I've never understood. My avatar is long gone... USNS Concord. She was sunk as a target a few years back. She was 18,000 tons. We lost the raft off the coast of Chile. The center section of the ship has extremely low freeboard - about 20-25 feet. Seas and swells were also running about 20-25 feet. We had a storm divert and were told to take shelter along the coast. The mates looked up the recommended place on the chart. Strike 1: water not deep enough. Strike 2: insufficient air draft. Strike 3: channels not wide enough. (We're post-Panamax). Open sea it is! You can't wash up on the rocks if you're nowhere near the rocks. We head out away from land and heave to for a while. We were prepared to stay hove to for a while longer, but the weather folks called again and said heavier weather was coming our way, so we proceeded south to stay ahead of the worst of the storm. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:42:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is my opinion. The ship sank. The crew are all dead. Maybe one or two are rescued. The cargo is lost. If this is true, how does "making a schedule" accomplish anything? They did not make it to their destination. The cargo did not make it on time and 33 people are most likely dead. My suggestion to you is that if your contract with your customers does not allow you to cancel due to safety reasons, you need that. You are the captain. Do not succumb to "get-there-itis." I fly for fun. I have had to make plenty of unplanned overnight stays at unplanned stops due to weather. Even commercial pilots can cancel a flight if conditions are unsafe and I would applaud a pilot on a plane I am on for canceling a flight if the conditions are bad. There is always tomorrow except when you press ahead and die due to a stupid and usually obviously stupid decision. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. EXACTLY. When it's a leisure trip, it's easy to stop and wait. When it's a commercial trip - not so much. I have some charters coming up in a few weeks, and am already war-gaming how to handle that with weather. When someone is paying exorbitant money for a trip on a fixed schedule - they're not always reasonable. It's easy for me to lose business, though, because I don't rely upon it to make my living. I'd rather sit in port than risk it. Here is my opinion. The ship sank. The crew are all dead. Maybe one or two are rescued. The cargo is lost. If this is true, how does "making a schedule" accomplish anything? They did not make it to their destination. The cargo did not make it on time and 33 people are most likely dead. My suggestion to you is that if your contract with your customers does not allow you to cancel due to safety reasons, you need that. You are the captain. Do not succumb to "get-there-itis." I fly for fun. I have had to make plenty of unplanned overnight stays at unplanned stops due to weather. Even commercial pilots can cancel a flight if conditions are unsafe and I would applaud a pilot on a plane I am on for canceling a flight if the conditions are bad. There is always tomorrow except when you press ahead and die due to a stupid and usually obviously stupid decision. No argument at all. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:49:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My avatar is long gone... USNS Concord. She was sunk as a target a few years back. She was 18,000 tons. We lost the raft off the coast of Chile. The center section of the ship has extremely low freeboard - about 20-25 feet. Seas and swells were also running about 20-25 feet. We had a storm divert and were told to take shelter along the coast. The mates looked up the recommended place on the chart. Strike 1: water not deep enough. Strike 2: insufficient air draft. Strike 3: channels not wide enough. (We're post-Panamax). Open sea it is! You can't wash up on the rocks if you're nowhere near the rocks. We head out away from land and heave to for a while. We were prepared to stay hove to for a while longer, but the weather folks called again and said heavier weather was coming our way, so we proceeded south to stay ahead of the worst of the storm. Nuts, but I get it. I also get the open sea run for these guys. They had little to no margin for error. Losing propulsion is what probably did it. I'd like to say there was no way to predict the loss of propulsion, but apparently she was on her last legs and everyone was aware. I've been in plenty of situations where losing propulsion would have been equally catastrophic, and don't mean to critique. So how does a mate not look at depth, width or air draft in a situation like that? I guess we all have to learn somehow! |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:51:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Coast Guard spokesman on Fox news said they had found a life ring from the ship. Does not sound good to me. BTDT, found a life ring floating in open ocean. Spent a lot of time searching, before they told us the boat wasn't lost. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:55:42 PM EDT
[#34]
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Nuts, but I get it. I also get the open sea run for these guys. They had little to no margin for error. Losing propulsion is what probably did it. I'd like to say there was no way to predict the loss of propulsion, but apparently she was on her last legs and everyone was aware. I've been in plenty of situations where losing propulsion would have been equally catastrophic, and don't mean to critique. So how does a mate not look at depth, width or air draft in a situation like that? I guess we all have to learn somehow! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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<snip> The mates looked up the recommended place on the chart. Strike 1: water not deep enough. Strike 2: insufficient air draft. Strike 3: channels not wide enough. (We're post-Panamax). Open sea it is! You can't wash up on the rocks if you're nowhere near the rocks. We head out away from land and heave to for a while. We were prepared to stay hove to for a while longer, but the weather folks called again and said heavier weather was coming our way, so we proceeded south to stay ahead of the worst of the storm. Nuts, but I get it. I also get the open sea run for these guys. They had little to no margin for error. Losing propulsion is what probably did it. I'd like to say there was no way to predict the loss of propulsion, but apparently she was on her last legs and everyone was aware. I've been in plenty of situations where losing propulsion would have been equally catastrophic, and don't mean to critique. So how does a mate not look at depth, width or air draft in a situation like that? I guess we all have to learn somehow! The mates consulted the chart. That's how we concluded that the recommended safe harbor that the shoreside weather weanies suggested was NOT safe. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 9:59:07 PM EDT
[#35]
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I can't speak the large merchant mariners like this vessel, but things fall off ships all the time. The ones that float really well (like a life ring) hang on the surface for a long time. Just this year I've passed hundreds of balloons, a dozen Cuban refugee craft (abandoned), a dozen life rings, almost a hundred life vests, and more trash than I care to think about. Pop a 100 mph+ wind, and things like life rings tend to find their way loose. I don't know how they store them in large vessels, but a lot of times in smaller vessels life rings are left in a clip so they can be quickly deployed. It's not a good sign, but I wouldn't call it the same as finding the wing off an aircraft floating after it went missing. As always, I defer to the merchant mariners who actually know what they're talking about.... ETA: one thing I heard from a USCG rescue pilot a long time ago was to put the name of your boat on EVERYTHING you carry - life rings, life vests, whatever. These items are often used to validate they're at least in the neighborhood of your position, and something that simple can save you life. Of course, an EPIRB or even a PLB is better than that. Those of you that travel offshore - please consider spending the small amount of money (~$250 to $750) for a satellite rescue beacon. I carry a PLB (personal locator beacon) in each of my inflatable life vests. It at least gives anyone overboard a chance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Coast Guard spokesman on Fox news said they had found a life ring from the ship. Does not sound good to me. I can't speak the large merchant mariners like this vessel, but things fall off ships all the time. The ones that float really well (like a life ring) hang on the surface for a long time. Just this year I've passed hundreds of balloons, a dozen Cuban refugee craft (abandoned), a dozen life rings, almost a hundred life vests, and more trash than I care to think about. Pop a 100 mph+ wind, and things like life rings tend to find their way loose. I don't know how they store them in large vessels, but a lot of times in smaller vessels life rings are left in a clip so they can be quickly deployed. It's not a good sign, but I wouldn't call it the same as finding the wing off an aircraft floating after it went missing. As always, I defer to the merchant mariners who actually know what they're talking about.... ETA: one thing I heard from a USCG rescue pilot a long time ago was to put the name of your boat on EVERYTHING you carry - life rings, life vests, whatever. These items are often used to validate they're at least in the neighborhood of your position, and something that simple can save you life. Of course, an EPIRB or even a PLB is better than that. Those of you that travel offshore - please consider spending the small amount of money (~$250 to $750) for a satellite rescue beacon. I carry a PLB (personal locator beacon) in each of my inflatable life vests. It at least gives anyone overboard a chance. This is true- I've found them from other commercial vessels after rough weather, and even lost a couple myself off of the back deck. As a result I put out standing orders to bring them inside from areas with low freeboard when rough weather was expected. We were also required by SOLAS and CFRs to have vessel name and homeport on the things you mention. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:06:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Will an EPIRB be easily detected in heavy cloud cover?
I know they are designed to work in rough seas and such but I wonder if they can be picked up via satellite with hurricane cloud cover. I think most also transmit on 121.5 mhz so aircraft might detect them if they have launched any. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:14:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In spite of the complete lack of hurricanes all summer - the winds and waves have been very unpredictable. We had 25+ knot winds blow for almost a month in the Exumas this summer, and we spent weeks hugging the shore. That's more a winter weather pattern than summer. There's also been a metric ton of lightning off the east coast of Florida and the Bahamas, and the low-level winds seemed different than normal. The El Nino kept the hurricanes away, but spawned some relatively local but severe weather patterns. I was in Old Bahama Bay (Grand Bahama) for about a week this summer, and it was pretty ugly out because of a strong easterly wind. People were leaving southern Florida in fairly calm weather, but it kept getting worse and worse by the time they crossed the gulf stream (because the waves got bigger and bigger the more distance the wind had to build them). By the time they got to the Bahamas they were literally in shock. I hit 5' to 8' seas on my way back as it was starting to die down, and I was thankfully taking it on the nose versus on the stern. I still don't understand how some of those ~20' boats made it across that nonsense. Anyway, that's childs play compared to what we're talking here. The normal 20' to 30' boat captain simply isn't prepared for such situations, though, and this summer has been very unpredictable. The loss of the two teenagers off the east coast really shook up people, and apparently safety gear has been flying off the shelves since then. I'm sorry we lost those boys, but I'm glad to see a renewed interest in preparedness on the water. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can't recount any year in recent history that so many people have gone missing off of FL and in the Bahamas other than this year.... This year has been brutal for that. In spite of the complete lack of hurricanes all summer - the winds and waves have been very unpredictable. We had 25+ knot winds blow for almost a month in the Exumas this summer, and we spent weeks hugging the shore. That's more a winter weather pattern than summer. There's also been a metric ton of lightning off the east coast of Florida and the Bahamas, and the low-level winds seemed different than normal. The El Nino kept the hurricanes away, but spawned some relatively local but severe weather patterns. I was in Old Bahama Bay (Grand Bahama) for about a week this summer, and it was pretty ugly out because of a strong easterly wind. People were leaving southern Florida in fairly calm weather, but it kept getting worse and worse by the time they crossed the gulf stream (because the waves got bigger and bigger the more distance the wind had to build them). By the time they got to the Bahamas they were literally in shock. I hit 5' to 8' seas on my way back as it was starting to die down, and I was thankfully taking it on the nose versus on the stern. I still don't understand how some of those ~20' boats made it across that nonsense. Anyway, that's childs play compared to what we're talking here. The normal 20' to 30' boat captain simply isn't prepared for such situations, though, and this summer has been very unpredictable. The loss of the two teenagers off the east coast really shook up people, and apparently safety gear has been flying off the shelves since then. I'm sorry we lost those boys, but I'm glad to see a renewed interest in preparedness on the water. Grew up in the waters around there. There are only two things predictable about the weather. One is the summer afternoon rains. The other is that things can change, fast, and be very localized. I think most people that have spent any time around the "Bermuda Triangle" understand a lot of the ship losses. As to the depth of the water, shallow water kills more boats than deep water.  We were sailing in the keys in a 39ft canoe sterned, wooden, sloop. Boat was built in 1956 for ocean racing in the north sea. Built hell for stout. Left anchorage in the morning to beautiful sunny skies. Two hours later we had a major storm headed our way. By the time it hit we had a tiny storm jib and 2 reefs in the rain. Immediately we had 50kt winds. Then the wind suddenly stopped and came out of the other direction. The boat went so far over the mast head light was full of water. Over 90 degrees over. Two weeks later the boat was hauled, but sheer clamps had cracks around the backstay. No popped seams and never leaked a drop. Mast head light was still full of water. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:23:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. Several years ago two guys took off from an airport in Las Cruces NM. Reportedly it was a birthday of one of the two people on the plane. They flew into a thunderstorm cell, crashed and both died. They could have left 30 minutes to an hour or more earlier, waited until the cell passed or waited until the next day. People fall asleep driving and die because they won't pull over when they are tired. I can't tell you how to stop it. All I can do is try to prevent it from killing me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sorry to keep picking on the availability of information and why they were where they were. I am the "chicken of the sea" - as in, I don't travel if it's ugly. I've often heard it said that the number 1 killer of men on the ocean is a schedule - and I believe it. I'm an amateur on a dinky little boat, but I hang out with the 100'+ crowd. It always amazed me how often I told them about weather warnings, and they had no idea. I don't know if it's complacency or competence, and again - I am not second-guessing these men who are (hopefully) fighting for their lives. I like to learn from other people, though, and this is something I've never understood. One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. Several years ago two guys took off from an airport in Las Cruces NM. Reportedly it was a birthday of one of the two people on the plane. They flew into a thunderstorm cell, crashed and both died. They could have left 30 minutes to an hour or more earlier, waited until the cell passed or waited until the next day. People fall asleep driving and die because they won't pull over when they are tired. I can't tell you how to stop it. All I can do is try to prevent it from killing me. A few years ago the wheelhouse guys started making what we called "disillusioned bridge officer" memes to pass around amongst ourselves. 
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:31:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A few years ago the wheelhouse guys started making what we called "disillusioned bridge officer" memes to pass around amongst ourselves. http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u494/eesmith79/B9E12FE6-62B8-45B6-A4E9-695EB273100F.png_zpstqyjj4fb.jpeg http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u494/eesmith79/864513EF-97DD-4805-9F84-2BCFB0FB7571_zpsoiubmihb.jpg http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u494/eesmith79/Mobile%20Uploads/07987223-935F-4DC1-A684-552E10FD7906.png_zps6vgtaxwl.jpeg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sorry to keep picking on the availability of information and why they were where they were. I am the "chicken of the sea" - as in, I don't travel if it's ugly. I've often heard it said that the number 1 killer of men on the ocean is a schedule - and I believe it. I'm an amateur on a dinky little boat, but I hang out with the 100'+ crowd. It always amazed me how often I told them about weather warnings, and they had no idea. I don't know if it's complacency or competence, and again - I am not second-guessing these men who are (hopefully) fighting for their lives. I like to learn from other people, though, and this is something I've never understood. One term used to describe this is "get-there-itis." A similar term is "get-home-itis." It happens in aviation and in probably most other transportation modes. Several years ago two guys took off from an airport in Las Cruces NM. Reportedly it was a birthday of one of the two people on the plane. They flew into a thunderstorm cell, crashed and both died. They could have left 30 minutes to an hour or more earlier, waited until the cell passed or waited until the next day. People fall asleep driving and die because they won't pull over when they are tired. I can't tell you how to stop it. All I can do is try to prevent it from killing me. A few years ago the wheelhouse guys started making what we called "disillusioned bridge officer" memes to pass around amongst ourselves. http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u494/eesmith79/B9E12FE6-62B8-45B6-A4E9-695EB273100F.png_zpstqyjj4fb.jpeg http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u494/eesmith79/864513EF-97DD-4805-9F84-2BCFB0FB7571_zpsoiubmihb.jpg http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u494/eesmith79/Mobile%20Uploads/07987223-935F-4DC1-A684-552E10FD7906.png_zps6vgtaxwl.jpeg hahahaha those are awesome. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:41:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will an EPIRB be easily detected in heavy cloud cover? I know they are designed to work in rough seas and such but I wonder if they can be picked up via satellite with hurricane cloud cover. I think most also transmit on 121.5 mhz so aircraft might detect them if they have launched any. The main signal is around 406 MHz. I have no idea what cloud cover does to it. You are correct about the 121.5 MHz signal. However, they are powered by batteries that have a finite life. That may be measured in roughly 24 hours actual use or close to it. I was off on the operational life once activated. I checked on one EPIRB and it was as follows: "Operational Life 48 Hours minimum @ -4°F (-20°C)" Source I just looked one line lower and the useful life is even better than the 48 hours I listed above: "Typical Performance 65+ hours @ -4°F (-20°C); Longer in higher ambient temperature" That means that if the EPIRB were activated then they should know EXACTLY where it is. That assumes that it is on the ocean surface and not attached to the ship 10,000 feet below the surface. Do life rafts or equivalent have to have an EPIRB? |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:42:23 PM EDT
[#41]
It's amazing to me that the Coast Guard is able to fly in those hurricane conditions.
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:44:04 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The main signal is around 406 MHz. I have no idea what cloud cover does to it. You are correct about the 121.5 MHz signal. However, they are powered by batteries that have a finite life. That may be measured in roughly 24 hours actual use or close to it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Will an EPIRB be easily detected in heavy cloud cover? I know they are designed to work in rough seas and such but I wonder if they can be picked up via satellite with hurricane cloud cover. I think most also transmit on 121.5 mhz so aircraft might detect them if they have launched any. The main signal is around 406 MHz. I have no idea what cloud cover does to it. You are correct about the 121.5 MHz signal. However, they are powered by batteries that have a finite life. That may be measured in roughly 24 hours actual use or close to it. 400 MHz/UHF penetrates rain and cloud cover just fine. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:54:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's amazing to me that the Coast Guard is able to fly in those hurricane conditions. really says something about how rugged the C-130 is |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 11:04:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
really says something about how rugged the C-130 is Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's amazing to me that the Coast Guard is able to fly in those hurricane conditions. really says something about how rugged the C-130 is Dudes that do this for a living are ballsy as hell, IMO. |
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Posted: 10/3/2015 11:35:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Bump for news
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Posted: 10/4/2015 12:16:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dudes that do this for a living are ballsy as hell, IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's amazing to me that the Coast Guard is able to fly in those hurricane conditions. really says something about how rugged the C-130 is Dudes that do this for a living are ballsy as hell, IMO. yeah, serious badasses |
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Posted: 10/4/2015 1:13:05 AM EDT
[#47]
How stupid an act does a captain have to commit before the insurance company won't cover the loss?
Sailing barely seaworthy ship into a hurricane seems like a good reason to deny the claim, or at least threaten to drop the owner's coverage. |
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Posted: 10/4/2015 1:20:27 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How stupid an act does a captain have to commit before the insurance company won't cover the loss? Sailing barely seaworthy ship into a hurricane seems like a good reason to deny the claim, or at least threaten to drop the owner's coverage. take a minute and read through the thread before you get all armchair quarterback-ish..... |
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Posted: 10/4/2015 1:25:18 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How stupid an act does a captain have to commit before the insurance company won't cover the loss? Sailing barely seaworthy ship into a hurricane seems like a good reason to deny the claim, or at least threaten to drop the owner's coverage. 
The ship just passed its semi-annual ABS inspection. The storm was only a tropical storm when the ship sailed, it was not predicted to go the way it did and intensify like it did. Moreover if they lost propulsion how exactly are they supposed to get out of its way? |
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Posted: 10/4/2015 1:28:03 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
take a minute and read through the thread before you get all armchair quarterback-ish..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How stupid an act does a captain have to commit before the insurance company won't cover the loss? Sailing barely seaworthy ship into a hurricane seems like a good reason to deny the claim, or at least threaten to drop the owner's coverage. take a minute and read through the thread before you get all armchair quarterback-ish..... I agree. Don't speculate about things you don't know about. This isn't like taking your Bayliner out on the lake for the weekend. |
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