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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:56:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$10 per hour seems like a better starting point. $15 per hour is too high and reduces the motivation to take harder jobs. Join date, post count. Also, your user name leads one to believe that you couldn't pass a piss test for a job anyway. So why the fuck should your opinion on the subject matter? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:58:04 PM EDT
[#2]
I'm a machinist. I wonder how much my pay is going to go up.
 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 6:59:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only way you control the beast is by limiting what arenas the beast may operate in. That's what we once had but have departed from, with predictable results. Socialism will require a government with very very few limits on it. Vote buying by the political class is essentially built in. Ultimately the government will be run for the benefit of the political class via parceling out the social benefits that are baked into a socialist system. The only way you avoid this is by declaring certain realms off limits. Even with that, your eternal vigilance will be a weak defense, but at least you have some hope. With a socialist system, you'll have government control of every aspect of your life in the limit. In other words, the exact opposite of an anarchist system. The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change). |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:01:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Capitalism is driving the automation 
Increasing the minimum wage just gets you there faster. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Capitalism is driving the automation
Increasing the minimum wage just gets you there faster. No, socialist interventions in the market are. What do you think a minimum wage is? Automation is the direct outcome of this socialist practice. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:02:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only way you control the beast is by limiting what arenas the beast may operate in. That's what we once had but have departed from, with predictable results. Socialism will require a government with very very few limits on it. Vote buying by the political class is essentially built in. Ultimately the government will be run for the benefit of the political class via parceling out the social benefits that are baked into a socialist system. The only way you avoid this is by declaring certain realms off limits. Even with that, your eternal vigilance will be a weak defense, but at least you have some hope. With a socialist system, you'll have government control of every aspect of your life in the limit. In other words, the exact opposite of an anarchist system. The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change). So which government has employed this strategy before? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:03:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually it will cause a cascade of price increases along every supply chain, even those that don't employ minimum wage employees. Those companies will end up paying higher prices for goods and services meaning price increases for them too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In fact, the entire effect of a minimum wage is to say that some people are not legally employable. If a person's skills or labor is worth $10/hr in a free market, and you set a $15 minimum wage, all you've done is tell employers that they can not legally employ that person because they are not in the habit of paying $15/hr for $10/hr of work. It's really not complicated. Actually it will cause a cascade of price increases along every supply chain, even those that don't employ minimum wage employees. Those companies will end up paying higher prices for goods and services meaning price increases for them too. In some cases the price of a good or service has enough flexibility that they can be raised to accommodate the increased wage. In those cases the labor or skill is objectively worth the new wage, though as you point out the effects of inflation tends to erase whatever ostensible benefit the new minimum wage was supposed to bring. In other cases, prices can not be raised to accommodate the cost of labor increase. In short, there are just no buyers at the new price. In effect, those people can no longer be legally employed because of the new minimum wage. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:03:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So which government has employed this strategy before? None that I'm aware of. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:07:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only way you control the beast is by limiting what arenas the beast may operate in. That's what we once had but have departed from, with predictable results. Socialism will require a government with very very few limits on it. Vote buying by the political class is essentially built in. Ultimately the government will be run for the benefit of the political class via parceling out the social benefits that are baked into a socialist system. The only way you avoid this is by declaring certain realms off limits. Even with that, your eternal vigilance will be a weak defense, but at least you have some hope. With a socialist system, you'll have government control of every aspect of your life in the limit. In other words, the exact opposite of an anarchist system. The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change). So in what way is a government with the power to "guarantees enough to allow any who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? Why would you not simply call this what it is, i.e. a socialist system? As I say, anarcho-socialist is merely a label that silly people use to give the impression that they hold serious ideas. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:08:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's an oxymoron because socialism involves involuntary transfer of wealth or income, requires coercion across many aspects of human activity, which requires a class of people that force accross the population. Not seeing how "anarcho" fits that in any way. At any rate, how can people realisticall get by on $15, paricularly as business will seek increasingly cost effective automation in substitution of increasingly overpriced labor? That's an inevitable future. Society will either adapt to supporting people from cradle to grave or a lot of people are going to die. How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Socialism. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:08:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So in what way is a government with the power to "guarantees enough to allow any who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? Why would you not simply call this what it is, i.e. a socialist system? As I say, anarcho-socialist is merely a label that silly people use to give the impression that they hold serious ideas. It's no sillier than the normal economic theories thrown around in GD. It's simply less popular here. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:09:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
None that I'm aware of. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So which government has employed this strategy before? None that I'm aware of. I wonder why that is? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:10:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only way you control the beast is by limiting what arenas the beast may operate in. That's what we once had but have departed from, with predictable results. Socialism will require a government with very very few limits on it. Vote buying by the political class is essentially built in. Ultimately the government will be run for the benefit of the political class via parceling out the social benefits that are baked into a socialist system. The only way you avoid this is by declaring certain realms off limits. Even with that, your eternal vigilance will be a weak defense, but at least you have some hope. With a socialist system, you'll have government control of every aspect of your life in the limit. In other words, the exact opposite of an anarchist system. The idea behind an anarcho-socalist system would be a government that guarantees enough to allow any who want to prosper, but is limited enough to allow for individual liberty (except taxation... to avoid that inevitable trope). I.E. They'll pay your medical bills but won't ever force you to quit smoking. Resources limited by availability not ability to pay. With the still inevitable pendulum swings in power (people will never change).
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:11:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's no sillier than the normal economic theories thrown around in GD. It's simply less popular here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So in what way is a government with the power to "guarantees enough to allow any who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? Why would you not simply call this what it is, i.e. a socialist system? As I say, anarcho-socialist is merely a label that silly people use to give the impression that they hold serious ideas. It's no sillier than the normal economic theories thrown around in GD. It's simply less popular here. Answer the question please .... in what way is a government with the power to "guarantee enough to anyone who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? In what way is this not simply a socialist system? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:13:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Answer the question please .... in what way is a government with the power to "guarantee enough to anyone who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? In what way is this not simply a socialist system? It is a socialist system, however it's a more limited system than is currently seen. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:13:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Hell yeah then cutoff all welfare and Medicaid. Anyone can work fast food no excuses. Of course that's not how it works they'll want to raise income allowance of welfare benefits so they can still get everything paid for by taxpayers.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:15:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is a socialist system, however it's a more limited system than is currently seen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Answer the question please .... in what way is a government with the power to "guarantee enough to anyone who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? In what way is this not simply a socialist system? It is a socialist system, however it's a more limited system than is currently seen. In what way is it more limited? Please be specific. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:15:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Doesn't matter, the DNC is broke anyway.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:16:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd vote for Sanders, Warren, or 3rd party. ETA According to one of the tests thrown around here, I fall into the anarcho-socialist camp. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So we should assume you'll be voting Democrat this time round? I'd vote for Sanders, Warren, or 3rd party. ETA According to one of the tests thrown around here, I fall into the anarcho-socialist camp. You'd vote for Sanders?
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:16:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In what way is it more limited? Please be specific. The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:17:25 PM EDT
[#20]
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You'd vote for Sanders? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So we should assume you'll be voting Democrat this time round? I'd vote for Sanders, Warren, or 3rd party. ETA According to one of the tests thrown around here, I fall into the anarcho-socialist camp. You'd vote for Sanders? Choking_Hazard is a SJW. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:17:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is a socialist system, however it's a more limited system than is currently seen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Answer the question please .... in what way is a government with the power to "guarantee enough to anyone who wants to prosper" an anarcho system? In what way is this not simply a socialist system? It is a socialist system, however it's a more limited system than is currently seen. There has never been a time in history that any form of socialist system hasn't gone full authoritarian, but that's cool, this time it'll be different! We just have to do it bigger, faster, harder, and even more full retard! FORWARD! 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:18:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Thousands of failed examples throughout history and all over the world, and why people still think any variation of socialism is viable is beyond me. Then add to the fact that millions from all over want to immigrate to the US because of the freedom inherent in capitalism to succeed, (from those very countries socialists idolize) and it baffles the mind why you'd want to change that.
Beating your head against a wall would be more productive. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:18:27 PM EDT
[#23]
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Choking_Hazard is a SJW. And a socialist... but is very pro gun 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:19:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In what way is it more limited? Please be specific. The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. Jesus dude, I don't know what you're on but it has fucked your brain up thoroughly. 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:19:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In what way is it more limited? Please be specific. The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. Whats a personal preference? Governments exist only to expand. How is that not painfully obvious to you at this point? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:19:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In what way is it more limited? Please be specific. The government would not use force to curtail or promote personal preferences. Ah, so this government would not use force. So, if they're going to guarantee certain material goods and services to people, they will necessarily need to take those goods and services from other people. What do they do when those other people decide they don't with their property confiscated? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:20:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And a socialist... but is very pro gun Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Choking_Hazard is a SJW. And a socialist... but is very pro gun The latter doesnt overide the former. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:21:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whats a personal preference? Governments exist only to expand. How is that not painfully obvious to you at this point? That's really up to the people being governed. It would expand and contract based on the apathy of the population. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:21:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, socialist interventions in the market are. What do you think a minimum wage is? Automation is the direct outcome of this socialist practice. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Capitalism is driving the automation Increasing the minimum wage just gets you there faster. No, socialist interventions in the market are. What do you think a minimum wage is? Automation is the direct outcome of this socialist practice. Let's not take into account quality, efficiency, increased profits, safer work environments, and customer demand for some of the aforementioned. So... What position in a manufacturing organization do you hold again? Cause if cost and quality controls are not factors it is probs an awsome place to work. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:21:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, so this government would not use force. So, if they'd going to guarantee certain material goods and services to people, they will necessarily need to take those goods and services from other people. What do they do when those other people decide they don't with their property confiscated? Your argument hinges on your own perception of personal property. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:21:46 PM EDT
[#31]
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And a socialist... but is very pro gun Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Choking_Hazard is a SJW. And a socialist... but is very pro gun When the people you support come to take yours away and you end up like the hundreds of millions before you who have shared the same fate let us know how that worked out for you. 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:23:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The latter doesnt overide the former. That only applies if you assign a negative value to socialism
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:23:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the people you support come to take yours away and you end up like the hundreds of millions before you who have shared the same fate let us know how that worked out for you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Choking_Hazard is a SJW. And a socialist... but is very pro gun When the people you support come to take yours away and you end up like the hundreds of millions before you who have shared the same fate let us know how that worked out for you. Will you refuse the government restrictions due to your political affiliations? His choices affect more then just his fellow party members. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:23:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's really up to the people being governed. It would expand and contract based on the apathy of the population. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Whats a personal preference? Governments exist only to expand. How is that not painfully obvious to you at this point? That's really up to the people being governed. It would expand and contract based on the apathy of the population. Well given that this socialist government is going to be handing out all sorts of goods and services, what are the chances that they will be able to purchase a majority vote for pretty much anything they want? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:24:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That only applies if you assign a negative value to socialism Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The latter doesnt overide the former. That only applies if you assign a negative value to socialism |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:24:42 PM EDT
[#36]
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That only applies if you assign a negative value to socialism Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The latter doesnt overide the former. That only applies if you assign a negative value to socialism Why don't you move to a socialist country and leave America to people that value freedom? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:24:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well given that this socialist government is going to be handing out all sorts of goods and services, what are the chances that they will be able to purchase a majority vote for pretty much anything they want? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Whats a personal preference? Governments exist only to expand. How is that not painfully obvious to you at this point? That's really up to the people being governed. It would expand and contract based on the apathy of the population. Well given that this socialist government is going to be handing out all sorts of goods and services, what are the chances that they will be able to purchase a majority vote for pretty much anything they want? Do we get to vote on the party welfare phone ? I vote iPhone or maybe Nexus. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:25:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And a socialist... but is very pro gun Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Choking_Hazard is a SJW. And a socialist... but is very pro gun Then why would you vote for Sanders? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:25:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your argument hinges on your own perception of personal property. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ah, so this government would not use force. So, if they'd going to guarantee certain material goods and services to people, they will necessarily need to take those goods and services from other people. What do they do when those other people decide they don't with their property confiscated? Your argument hinges on your own perception of personal property. Ah, now we're getting down to it. Your proposed system merely requires the redefinition of personal property by the population at large? Can you point out to me a society where this has been accomplished? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:25:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's really up to the people being governed. It would expand and contract based on the apathy of the population. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Whats a personal preference? Governments exist only to expand. How is that not painfully obvious to you at this point? That's really up to the people being governed. It would expand and contract based on the apathy of the population. How do you define this term? Because the way I do literally means lack of everything youre using to justify a shift of power... |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:25:54 PM EDT
[#41]
It's only fair.
and it will be only fair when they become too expensive to hire and are replaced by kiosk machines and the people doing the cooking will get $15 an hour working 20 hours a week. All minimum wage jobs will be 20 hour part time jobs. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:25:56 PM EDT
[#42]
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Well given that this socialist government is going to be handing out all sorts of goods and services, what are the chances that they will be able to purchase a majority vote for pretty much anything they want? Clever, I suppose that cleverness is born out of education. If only you could have a very well educated voting populace by guaranteeing large amounts of free education to the public, they too might see the pitfalls you do.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:26:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don't you move to a socialist country and leave America to people that value freedom? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The latter doesnt overide the former. That only applies if you assign a negative value to socialism Why don't you move to a socialist country and leave America to people that value freedom? Freedom ... Only if you believe in my version of freedom ... |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:26:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfettered socialism is just as evil as unfettered capitalism. Agreed |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:26:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your argument hinges on your own perception of personal property. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ah, so this government would not use force. So, if they'd going to guarantee certain material goods and services to people, they will necessarily need to take those goods and services from other people. What do they do when those other people decide they don't with their property confiscated? Your argument hinges on your own perception of personal property. Is someone's home or their private business, or their property not considered their personal property? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:27:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's not take into account quality, efficiency, increased profits, safer work environments, and customer demand for some of the aforementioned. So... What position in a manufacturing organization do you hold again? Cause if cost and quality controls are not factors it is probs an awsome place to work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Capitalism is driving the automation
Increasing the minimum wage just gets you there faster. No, socialist interventions in the market are. What do you think a minimum wage is? Automation is the direct outcome of this socialist practice. Let's not take into account quality, efficiency, increased profits, safer work environments, and customer demand for some of the aforementioned. So... What position in a manufacturing organization do you hold again? Cause if cost and quality controls are not factors it is probs an awsome place to work. Are you using those as examples of socialist interventions? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:27:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clever, I suppose that cleverness is born out of education. If only you could have a very well educated voting populace by guaranteeing large amounts of free education to the public, they too might see the pitfalls you do. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well given that this socialist government is going to be handing out all sorts of goods and services, what are the chances that they will be able to purchase a majority vote for pretty much anything they want? Clever, I suppose that cleverness is born out of education. If only you could have a very well educated voting populace by guaranteeing large amounts of free education to the public, they too might see the pitfalls you do. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:27:50 PM EDT
[#48]
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How do you define this term? Because the way I do literally means lack of everything youre using to justify a shift of power... Human nature. The happier a population is the less likely they are to watch those who govern. That pendulum swings back and forth. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:28:11 PM EDT
[#49]
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The more money you make the more money you pay in taxes. It's a win win for the government. And the higher percentage you pay. A lot of union contracts and probably a a lot of prevailing wage jobs are tied to the minumun wage. Everybody up and down the line will have to make 7 bucks more and in the end the tax man wins and your retirement savings takes a hair cut. And the bottom will still be the bottom |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 7:28:29 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you using those as examples of socialist interventions? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How about supporting self sufficiency instead of reliance? And if we head the direction you're advocating, yes, a lot of people are going to die. Whats the definition of insanity again? Capitalism is driving the automation Increasing the minimum wage just gets you there faster. No, socialist interventions in the market are. What do you think a minimum wage is? Automation is the direct outcome of this socialist practice. Let's not take into account quality, efficiency, increased profits, safer work environments, and customer demand for some of the aforementioned. So... What position in a manufacturing organization do you hold again? Cause if cost and quality controls are not factors it is probs an awsome place to work. Are you using those as examples of socialist interventions?  You make me have sad feels ... |
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