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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:37:12 AM EDT
[#1]
Im sure there are ALOT of reasons, squib loads is probably high on that list.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:37:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Probably due to failures. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:40:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Clearing your malfunctioning firearm takes time away from training.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:41:25 AM EDT
[#4]
Because most handloaders tend to be lazy. Their shit loads usually cause a lot of stoppages and failures while everyone else keeps on training.
If an instructor has to stop for "Special Snow Flakes" everyone else may have to wait on themn as well. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:46:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because most handloaders tend to be lazy. Their shit loads usually cause a lot of stoppages and failures while everyone else keeps on training. If an instructor has to stop for "Special Snow Flakes" everyone else may have to wait on themn as well. To supplement this point, "train like you fight". Are you going to use potentially unreliable ammo for self defense situations? Probably not. Have some respect for your time (in the class) and that of the instructor and your classmates. Eliminate an easily avoidable potential training distraction by bringing good ammo with you. IMO. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:51:07 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because most handloaders tend to be lazy. Their shit loads usually cause a lot of stoppages and failures while everyone else keeps on training. If an instructor has to stop for "Special Snow Flakes" everyone else may have to wait on themn as well. Utter nonsense. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:55:56 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
I have been reloading for about 4 months now and have shot over 1K rds. of each .223 and 9mm. So far I have only had 5 failures with my .223 which were all caused by bad primers all on the same day. I have also had 3 FTF with 9mm. I carefully inspect my brass and use the recommended starting powder charge. My reloads seem to be as or more reliable than factory ammo but I read that a lot of training schools either ban or discourage the use of reloaded ammo. Why? BTW, loads that I have been using. .223: CCI 400 primers, 23.5 gr. of H335 powder and Berry's 55gr. fmj, COAL of 2.200 9mm: Federal small pistol primers, 4.5 gr. of WSF Ball powder and Berry's plated 115gr. 9mm, COAL of 1.169 So out of a 1,000 rounds you've had that many failures and you thing your ammo is as reliable as factory loads??? I must be really lucky because shoot on average about 1,500 rounds a month and I can't remember the last failure with factory ammo. As someone said before, sooner or later you're going to get a squib round and things might just go boom!!! On a side note you'll get some good malfunction training!! |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:56:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL Utter nonsense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because most handloaders tend to be lazy. Their shit loads usually cause a lot of stoppages and failures while everyone else keeps on training. If an instructor has to stop for "Special Snow Flakes" everyone else may have to wait on themn as well. Utter nonsense. Qft. All the reloaders i know are anal retentive when it comes to making ammo. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:56:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
I have been reloading for about 4 months now and have shot over 1K rds. of each .223 and 9mm. So far I have only had 5 failures with my .223 which were all caused by bad primers all on the same day. I have also had 3 FTF (assuming you mean failure to feed?) with 9mm. I carefully inspect my brass and use the recommended starting powder charge. My reloads seem to be as or more reliable than factory ammo but I read that a lot of training schools either ban or discourage the use of reloaded ammo. Why? BTW, loads that I have been using. .223: CCI 400 primers, 23.5 gr. of H335 powder and Berry's 55gr. fmj, COAL of 2.200 9mm: Federal small pistol primers, 4.5 gr. of WSF Ball powder and Berry's plated 115gr. 9mm, COAL of 1.169 4.5 for your 9mm load is under the minimum starting charge, from IMR site, for 115gr jacketed rounds and likely the very minimum for plated. Probably why you are having FTF. If you are using a powder drop, you will be + or - some, causing some of your rounds to likely be under 4.5grs. I would increase slowly and find a higher charge weight where you have no issues. EDIT: Minimum charge is 5grs for 115. I have also found their site to be on the conservative side as well, for whats its worth. You need to check multiple sources for load data and work up. Your primer issues could be due to lube getting in the case or wet tumbling and loaded when not completely dry, if you wet tumble. Assuming something happened in your process to get 5 in the same day. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:57:14 AM EDT
[#10]
Why are hand loads less reliable?
This is a false premise, if you are the hand loader. I weigh each individual powder charge when I hand load. I would 100% trust my hand loads for training and self defense. I would not trust somebody else's hand loads because they are not me... |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:59:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why are hand loads less reliable? This is a false premise, if you are the hand loader. I weigh each individual powder charge when I hand load. I would 100% trust my hand loads for training and self defense. I would not trust somebody else's hand loads because they are not me... And it is because of "the other guy" that they get a deserved presumption of unreliability. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:10:13 AM EDT
[#12]
I don't know? The, 'I've had 5 failures to fire' thing has me a little concerned. Why? Because I've been reloading for almost 40 years; and, at least, during the past 25 years I've never had any sort of ammunition problem. I've gone through thousands and thousands of rounds in IDPA practice sessions - All without any sort of ammunition hiccup. I used to reload my own (beautifully made) 30-06 hunting ammo. Because I was one of the guides I got the unenviable job of sighting-in all the, 'tourists' rifles. My Sako Finnbear always shot more accurately than any of the tourist's guns; but, maybe, it wasn't the ammunition; maybe, it was the gun!
I don't worry about using reloads in a semiautomatic action. If the ammo fails the weapon won't cycle; and even a, 'stone-cold novice' should, still, know how to clear his gun! As long as the muzzle stays pointed downrange during the clearance procedure I'm fine with that. More troublesome is the range's insurance liability. If you get hurt on their property who knows what the legal repercussions might be? |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:11:50 AM EDT
[#13]
I don't shoot factory ammo.
Like, ever. 
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:19:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clearing your malfunctioning firearm takes time away from is training. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Fixed it for you. To the OP, I say go for it if it is ok with the school. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:20:16 AM EDT
[#15]
Frankly I think your failure rate is to high.
That said, when I go to a class, I just keep my mouth shut and shoot what I want. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:29:37 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know? The, 'I've had 5 failures to fire' thing has me a little concerned. Why? Because I've been reloading for almost 40 years; and, at least, during the past 25 years I've never had any sort of ammunition problem. I've gone through thousands and thousands of rounds in IDPA practice sessions - All without any sort of ammunition hiccup. I used to reload my own (beautifully made) 30-06 hunting ammo. Because I was one of the guides I got the unenviable job of sighting-in all the, 'tourists' rifles. My Sako Finnbear always shot more accurately than any of the tourist's guns; but, maybe, it wasn't the ammunition; maybe, it was the gun! I don't worry about using reloads in a semiautomatic action. If the ammo fails the weapon won't cycle; and even a, 'stone-cold novice' should, still, know how to clear his gun! As long as the muzzle stays pointed downrange during the clearance procedure I'm fine with that. More troublesome is the range's insurance liability. If you get hurt on their property who knows what the legal repercussions might be? You sighted in the tourists rifles? Really? And, they let you? I guided elk, deer and sheep hunters here in the Rockies for nearly 20 years. Worked for one outfitter mainly, but freelanced for most of the others in the Gunnison country, off and on, over the years. Never heard of that. Never did it. Never even thought of it. And, we prided ourselves on doing about everything for the hunters except carrying their rifles and wiping their asses. OP, sorry for the derail. No need to comment, RavenU. It just struck me as very odd. Back on track. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:32:19 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Frankly I think your failure rate is to high. That said, when I go to a class, I just keep my mouth shut and shoot what I want. This |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:35:38 AM EDT
[#18]
I've been shooting nothing but handloads (from a Dillon 550) for 8 years. Well over 10,000 rounds, through several high-round-count classes. Iron out the kinks in your system to get your failure rate to ZERO. You should be able to feel a "bad" primer seating and correct it on the fly. Use an air compressor to keep your press & work area clean. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:38:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clearing your malfunctioning firearm takes time away from training. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is the reason I've been told. It's not like they check, so you can get away with using whatever you want. But understand, instructors are super-attuned to what's happening on the firing line, so if someone has a problem, they notice it and want to solve it. Equipment issue? Technique issue? Ammunition issue? If you have a problem, and they stop the line while you and the instructor deal with the issue, all eyes are on you. If the issue turns out to be a bad round and it's a reload? You just became That Guy. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:41:37 AM EDT
[#20]
No problem using reloads at Gunsite Training Center at the times I've been there.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:50:24 AM EDT
[#21]
None of the places i attended said anything about ammo. You need to do better at reloading before you start shooting in the big leagues
You know there's a forum for reloading that can assist one with issues they encounter. http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/42_Reloading.html |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:58:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Frankly I think your failure rate is to high. That said, when I go to a class, I just keep my mouth shut and shoot what I want. This. Although the last rifle class I took, I used Wolf steel cased since I knew I was leaving it on the ground 
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:02:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Some usual bullshit in this thread. I've shot thousands of rounds this year alone and only 30 of those were factory ammunition. I've had zero problems with my ammo, except for maybe one defective primer. I would trust any of my ammo or weapons at any class.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:15:44 AM EDT
[#24]
OP, I don't believe your FTF are primer malfunctions. They are a result of the primer not being seated all the way on the anvil.
Factory ammo is using the same primers we are and FTF are pretty uncommon. Always run that FTF back through you firearm a second and even 3rd time. If it goes bang, you know you have an "operator error". Not being a dick but it's part of the learning curve and there isn't a hand loader that hasn't had it happen to them. Small adjustments on our machines can make a big difference in reliability. I completely understand the rule for no reloads....Their range their rules. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:19:09 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been shooting nothing but handloads (from a Dillon 550) for 8 years. Well over 10,000 rounds, through several high-round-count classes. Iron out the kinks in your system to get your failure rate to ZERO. You should be able to feel a "bad" primer seating and correct it on the fly. Use an air compressor to keep your press & work area clean. this he's a noob reloader. to the op. pitfalls to avoid: don't be a cheap fuck. what that means is don't skimp on components to try to save a little. don't run brass past its life expectancy don't buy shitty bullets, and don't skimp on the charge weight. you want a blown up gun? skimp as much as possible. don't read the manuals. manuals are for pussies. thats a really great way to fuck it all up is don't read the manual. to the guy who shoots 1500 rounds a month. thats great. but you don't know shit about reloading or handloading or reloaders. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:25:15 AM EDT
[#26]
I haven't bought a box of factory ammo in years.
My guns run just fine, thanks 
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:36:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Good components assembled correctly.
You should have thousands of rounds founds fired with no issues. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:51:56 AM EDT
[#28]
If you use factory ammo, the chances to practice failure drills goes down. Reloads enable you to get some kind of failure here or there if unintentional hopefully. Just make sure you don't get a squib as that is real bad. Any reloader should know this. I have seen a wolf ammo fail and a guy completely stop drilling because he felt unsafe until he checked his barrel for light. That should tell you something.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:57:06 AM EDT
[#29]
I have been reloading for over 30 years and can't think of one failure.
Maybe a little to hot but that's it. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:59:48 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you use factory ammo, the chances to practice failure drills goes down. Reloads enable you to get some kind of failure here or there if unintentional hopefully. Just make sure you don't get a squib as that is real bad. Any reloader should know this. I have seen a wolf ammo fail and a guy completely stop drilling because he felt unsafe until he checked his barrel for light. That should tell you something. Only if you don't pay attention to what your doing. If you are diligent, like you should be, your failure rate should be no more, mine has been way less, than factory ammo failures. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:01:27 AM EDT
[#31]
5 failures in 1000 is not "factory like" in my experience. I load lots and lots of 9mm and 223. For practice and competitions reloads are all I shoot. I've had problems with my reloads in the past, and have instituted procedures in my reloading methods to eliminate those problems in the future, and at this point I consider my reloads close to factory reliability.
I would still buy a case of factory to do a class because I don't want to be "that guy." I don't think anyone, instructors or students alike actually gives a shit whether you use reloads or Wolf or whatever your heart desires, as long as you don't become an interruption to the class. Out of all the expenses associated with a class like that, 1 case of ammunition buys a lot of peace of mind IMO. And taking a class is really the only reason I keep a couple factory cases on my shelf any more. So I can have 20 cpr 9mm and 30 cpr 223 on hand regardless of when I decide to take the class, rather than being forced to buy it during whatever the current market prices are. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:24:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because most handloaders tend to be lazy. Their shit loads usually cause a lot of stoppages and failures while everyone else keeps on training. If an instructor has to stop for "Special Snow Flakes" everyone else may have to wait on themn as well. Heh. Yeah, I tend to agree. I've got about 8K in my reloading equipment, and I enjoy spending time on my loading. Perfect isn't perfect enough. Haven't had an issue with anything I've loaded in almost 20 years. I actually DO trust my loads more than factory. Heck, I started handloading because a Federal 38spcl target load blew up my dad's Colt Cobra and Federal told me to go pound sand (FUCK Federal!). Not everyone is as motivated or invested as me. EDIT: Yep, after all these years, I'd STILL like to take a crowbar to that cocksucking Federal rep. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:26:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Train with what you are going to fight with.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:31:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
4.5 for your 9mm load is under the minimum starting charge, from IMR site, for 115gr jacketed rounds and likely the very minimum for plated. Probably why you are having FTF. If you are using a powder drop, you will be + or - some, causing some of your rounds to likely be under 4.5grs. I would increase slowly and find a higher charge weight where you have no issues. EDIT: Minimum charge is 5grs for 115. I have also found their site to be on the conservative side as well, for whats its worth. You need to check multiple sources for load data and work up. Your primer issues could be due to lube getting in the case or wet tumbling and loaded when not completely dry, if you wet tumble. Assuming something happened in your process to get 5 in the same day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have been reloading for about 4 months now and have shot over 1K rds. of each .223 and 9mm. So far I have only had 5 failures with my .223 which were all caused by bad primers all on the same day. I have also had 3 FTF (assuming you mean failure to feed?) with 9mm. I carefully inspect my brass and use the recommended starting powder charge. My reloads seem to be as or more reliable than factory ammo but I read that a lot of training schools either ban or discourage the use of reloaded ammo. Why? BTW, loads that I have been using. .223: CCI 400 primers, 23.5 gr. of H335 powder and Berry's 55gr. fmj, COAL of 2.200 9mm: Federal small pistol primers, 4.5 gr. of WSF Ball powder and Berry's plated 115gr. 9mm, COAL of 1.169 4.5 for your 9mm load is under the minimum starting charge, from IMR site, for 115gr jacketed rounds and likely the very minimum for plated. Probably why you are having FTF. If you are using a powder drop, you will be + or - some, causing some of your rounds to likely be under 4.5grs. I would increase slowly and find a higher charge weight where you have no issues. EDIT: Minimum charge is 5grs for 115. I have also found their site to be on the conservative side as well, for whats its worth. You need to check multiple sources for load data and work up. Your primer issues could be due to lube getting in the case or wet tumbling and loaded when not completely dry, if you wet tumble. Assuming something happened in your process to get 5 in the same day. I'd look for primers that are not completely seated, and then to the gun. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:34:00 AM EDT
[#35]
FTF as in hammer/striker drops and no BOOM? I have have maybe 7-8 in over 20K reloads fired (one dead primer and a half dozen or so high primers.)
3 to 5 per thousand is totally unacceptable. You either have a bad batch of primers, or you are doing something wrong and are killing the primers like getting oil on the primer compound, ASSUMING the primers are properly seated. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:36:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Another question: 5 failures with 223 "due to bad primers." How did you diagnose this? What was bad about them?
I had 8,000 CCI small rifle primers that I kept in my unheated shed for 4-5 years before moving my reloading setup inside. They saw 4-5 years of humid summers, freezes and thaws, etc. I've just now gotten to using the last box of them and to this point have not had a single failure to fire with any rounds using them. The only primer related issues I've ever encountered were due to how they were seated. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:45:46 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Train with what you are going to fight with. 
or settle on a load that meters well, simulates your carry ammo and spend sufficient range time to ensure its reliability. or marry rich. 
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Posted: 8/1/2015 11:47:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clearing your malfunctioning firearm takes time away from training. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It's a hell of a lot better time to practice clearing malfunctions than on the street.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 12:30:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I enjoy spending time on my loading. Perfect isn't perfect enough. I actually DO trust my loads more than factory. Not everyone is as motivated or invested as me. Maybe not, but I'm right there with ya' 
OP, you need to check your procedures, because that's a *LOT* of bad rounds you're making 
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Posted: 8/1/2015 12:42:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:My reloads seem to be as or more reliable than factory ammo
Ok you SAY that right after writing about ALL your failers.... Reloads are NOT ever NEVER more reliable than quality factory munitions. That said if your ammo is decent there is no real reason not to use it for training. Just do not slow the class down. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 12:46:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because most handloaders tend to be lazy. Their shit loads usually cause a lot of stoppages and failures while everyone else keeps on training. If an instructor has to stop for "Special Snow Flakes" everyone else may have to wait on themn as well. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 12:50:30 PM EDT
[#42]
5 failures per 1000 rounds? That is terrible quality (5000DPMO, 2.58 sigma)
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Posted: 8/1/2015 12:55:20 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
None of the places i attended said anything about ammo. You need to do better at reloading before you start shooting in the big leagues You know there's a forum for reloading that can assist one with issues they encounter. http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/42_Reloading.html I highly recommend talking to the guys over there if anyone has any questions. Some of the nicest and most helpful people on this website! |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 12:59:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5 failures per 1000 rounds? That is terrible quality (5000DPMO, 2.58 sigma) Shit, better than the last factory reloads I bought.
Got them crom Collins Cartridge Company. I had about 5 failures per 50.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 1:01:59 PM EDT
[#45]
I don't see why it would be a problem. 95% of the ammo I shoot are my reloads. I get better accuracy and reliability than the cheap factory stuff I used to shoot.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 1:07:27 PM EDT
[#46]
Your failure rate is too high, IMO.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 2:41:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Reliability equal to or better than factory ammo is a pretty high bar.
Regardless the one thing that major ammo companies do have is huge liability policies |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 2:42:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Gun show reloads are their concern.
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Posted: 8/1/2015 3:28:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why are hand loads less reliable? I would 100% trust my hand loads for training and self defense. I would not trust somebody else's hand loads because they are not me... This for me also! |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 3:50:33 PM EDT
[#50]
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