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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:37:48 PM EDT
[#1]
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Of course the police could have handled this a different way: Plumhoff v. Rickard - they could have shot the shit out of them, both of them, and the USSC would be ZFG Scott v. Harris agrees too. Pursuits can very easily meet the deadly force level. When it does, the proper force needs to be applied. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:39:00 PM EDT
[#2]
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There is an established risk when using stop sticks. That isn't a guarantee that something will or will not happen, but an established high probability of unpredictability. Knowing this, stopping traffic from both directions before deploying them would make more sense than just blindly deploying them. That's where the question of liability comes in since there are other agencies do take that care. If I defibrillate someone without clearing the body, and shock someone else, I just bought that liability for me and/or my agency, not the patient in cardiac arrest, and there is an established risk with defibrillators that forces me to be aware of others that may be placed in harms way with their use. New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:57:05 PM EDT
[#3]
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New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is an established risk when using stop sticks. That isn't a guarantee that something will or will not happen, but an established high probability of unpredictability. Knowing this, stopping traffic from both directions before deploying them would make more sense than just blindly deploying them. That's where the question of liability comes in since there are other agencies do take that care. If I defibrillate someone without clearing the body, and shock someone else, I just bought that liability for me and/or my agency, not the patient in cardiac arrest, and there is an established risk with defibrillators that forces me to be aware of others that may be placed in harms way with their use. New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. Don't take property that is not yours. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:13:51 PM EDT
[#4]
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Police officers are almost never held personally accountable for their actions. At best, tax payer funds are used to shut up victims and the cop gets fired. It is a very rare circumstance where a cop is held accountable in the same way that a private citizen would be. They are held to a much lower standard than the rest of us. When did you get fired? |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:25:05 PM EDT
[#5]
This happened just across the street from my work.
guy carjacked the car from the carwash my wife uses on occasion. I am not upset with how the police handled it. someone that carjacks a car and runs is a threat to the general public and should not just be released until a later date. The crash was pretty nasty... sad innocent people were hurt. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:27:43 PM EDT
[#6]
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New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is an established risk when using stop sticks. That isn't a guarantee that something will or will not happen, but an established high probability of unpredictability. Knowing this, stopping traffic from both directions before deploying them would make more sense than just blindly deploying them. That's where the question of liability comes in since there are other agencies do take that care. If I defibrillate someone without clearing the body, and shock someone else, I just bought that liability for me and/or my agency, not the patient in cardiac arrest, and there is an established risk with defibrillators that forces me to be aware of others that may be placed in harms way with their use. New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. This is what we were told happened. That part of the road is also on a curve. I am not surprised he lost control driving a unfamiliar car at high speeds on a curve trying to avoid stop sticks. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:29:31 PM EDT
[#7]
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:32:23 PM EDT
[#8]
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This is kind of a tough one. On one hand, can the cops really be expected to foresee this kind of thing? What exactly does their policy say on the deployment of stop sticks? On the other hand, the one witness did have a point. The cops probably could have backed off sooner, and let the bird work. The helicopter would have had no problem tracking these guys, they were in a fucking wood grained PT Cruiser for crying out lout. As a LE helicopter pilot, I can assure you that we (the air unit) lose people all the time. It should never be assumed that just because a helicopter is involved in the chase, that there's no way the bad guy will get away. It's just not that easy. Cops are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. Should they just let a car-jacking suspect get away? What if the suspect also shot and killed someone--how about then? It's a question each agency asks themselves when they write, or re-write their pursuit policy. Ours changed years ago when a chase of a stolen vehicle resulted in the death of a teenager who was riding in a van who just happened to be in town for a little league game. After that, violent forcible felonies only. The bad part about a car chase is that it nearly always ends in a crash--either the suspect, the cops, innocent motorists, or all three. I don't know what the answer is. So, uh, what's a good way to avoid being spotted/tracked by a helicopter? I mean, other than obeying the law. Asking for a friend, of course... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Hiding from or getting away from the helicopter is easy. Trees, tall buildings, other vehicles, parking garages, anything that blocks my view of the suspect vehicle can cause me to lose the target--especially at night. I'd say if I am overhead when the chase starts ( which is rare), there's about a 75% chance I'll catch the bad guy. If I am not overhead when the chase starts, there's a good chance i will never even find the car ( seems like they are always a beige passenger car or something that is super common). One of the most common reasons I lose a car, or FLIR target is because I am working in controlled airspace, and I have to move to allow a commercial flight to come in. If the chase is already over, and the bad guy has already bailed out, there's probably a 20% chance we will catch him. We lose far more bad guys than we catch. Was this one of your videos? 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Bkk7pmFdUNope. That's from Kevin Means out of San Diego. One of the best tactical flight officers in the business. He likely saved an officer's life that night. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:32:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is an established risk when using stop sticks. That isn't a guarantee that something will or will not happen, but an established high probability of unpredictability. Knowing this, stopping traffic from both directions before deploying them would make more sense than just blindly deploying them. That's where the question of liability comes in since there are other agencies do take that care. If I defibrillate someone without clearing the body, and shock someone else, I just bought that liability for me and/or my agency, not the patient in cardiac arrest, and there is an established risk with defibrillators that forces me to be aware of others that may be placed in harms way with their use. Yeah, your controlled environment is just like a high speed pursuit of fleeing felons.  you should stop.Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:37:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. My prediction nationwide with this socialist driven cop/teacher/ firefighter/ Military bashing continues...
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f_B23QGCEmA[/youtube] |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 3:39:31 PM EDT
[#11]
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When did you get fired? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Police officers are almost never held personally accountable for their actions. At best, tax payer funds are used to shut up victims and the cop gets fired. It is a very rare circumstance where a cop is held accountable in the same way that a private citizen would be. They are held to a much lower standard than the rest of us. When did you get fired? Well, he is a buddy fucker so I doubt anywhere. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 7:28:53 PM EDT
[#12]
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Don't take property that is not yours. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is an established risk when using stop sticks. That isn't a guarantee that something will or will not happen, but an established high probability of unpredictability. Knowing this, stopping traffic from both directions before deploying them would make more sense than just blindly deploying them. That's where the question of liability comes in since there are other agencies do take that care. If I defibrillate someone without clearing the body, and shock someone else, I just bought that liability for me and/or my agency, not the patient in cardiac arrest, and there is an established risk with defibrillators that forces me to be aware of others that may be placed in harms way with their use. New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. Don't take property that is not yours. I'm still trying to figure out how you stop traffic from both directions to deploy stop sticks? So if your in pursuit of a vehicle heading north, where do you stop northbound traffic at? How do you stop northbound traffic traffic ahead of the northbound suspect vehicle? Where do you stop southbound (opposing) traffic at? How in the blue fuck does a normal department have the available manpower and concentration of officers to accomplish this? How do you put all that manpower, if it is available, in the location in advance to know that is where the suspect vehicle will go? As for your defibrilater question, you visually inspect the patient to ensure that everyone is clear and the area is safe. You say "I'm clear, you're clear, everyone clear!" and then deliver the charge if it is similar to AED procedures for shocking a patient . Really a poor comparison imho. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 8:35:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really a poor comparison imho. It is a great comparison. If we make the body a jungle gym set, the people in the area as being 500 kids that are full of sugar and ignore adults, then it is valid. I mean it is very easy to herd cats and control 500 kids. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 6:06:17 PM EDT
[#14]
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Police pursuits are like global thermonuclear war. The only winning move is not to play. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cops kind of can't win when it comes to some douche who speeds off Police pursuits are like global thermonuclear war. The only winning move is not to play. Man that was great movie. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 6:16:26 PM EDT
[#15]
in 25 years I had ONE chase that I didnt end myself, and that one turned out to be just a drunk, but the dispatcher transposed the plate number he was given which came back to a felony vehicle wanted for a shooting. NJ has a pretty restrictive and broad guideline regarding pursuits, so at least where i worked the local policy was...Dont. We also didnt HAVE Stop Sticks, or any other way to end a pursuit since Roadblocks under the guideline are considered to be Deadly Force. They finally authorized stop sticks on the state level a year or two before i Retired, We didnt even bother buying them because every Shift Captain stated that he wouldnt ever authorize their use
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:36:29 PM EDT
[#16]
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Seems irresponsible with potential oncoming traffic  That's about the time the police called off the pursuit. From what was in the clip, it sounds like the police were very careful with their pursuit considering they were chasing a carjacker. They weren't trying to pull over a guy for having a brake light out. Sometimes the cops need to pursue despite the danger and this was one of those times and they seemed to been very professional about it. I do hope the injured bystanders are not badly hurt. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:48:38 PM EDT
[#17]
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What should the cops do you say?....... .........smile and wave boys.......smile and wave Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Im not a cop and I dont think they are infallable (sp?) But what should they do? The chopper alone wont catch the individuals. The cop that smoked that guy in Ohio probably prevented a situation like this only taking out the guy with an open gin bottle and hes charged as a criminal. These guys are trying to stop a pursuit, its on the criminals terms he's leading it, and people say this resolution is the cops fault. Ok just let them all go they will probably get tired of getting away with it and quit. What should the cops do you say?....... .........smile and wave boys.......smile and wave "85 to Quarters....he took Off onn me, and with obvious reckless intent, Im not pursuing him, My Location is XYZ, My lights and Siren are off, He is Proceeding South on Doe Street and I am turning East on Oak Ave....Time Check Please" |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:50:27 PM EDT
[#18]
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I would assume shooting from a helicopter isn't as easy as in the movies. Plus qualifications would be interesting on the firing line.
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This is kind of a tough one. On one hand, can the cops really be expected to foresee this kind of thing? What exactly does their policy say on the deployment of stop sticks? On the other hand, the one witness did have a point. The cops probably could have backed off sooner, and let the bird work. The helicopter would have had no problem tracking these guys, they were in a fucking wood grained PT Cruiser for crying out lout. Backing off and chasing with the bird is likely to just allow a second victim, one with video evidence for their family to use in court this time as the bird watches them jack someone else from traffic. They should just shoot carjackers from the bird and get it over with, it's a continuing violent felony in progress after all..
Probably not indicated much outside of Brazil..although im Certain it's been done...hell Philly even had its own Tactical Air Command.... 
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:56:53 PM EDT
[#19]
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Depends on the state..."Intentional Contact with a Fleeing Vehicle is Specifically Prohibited under this Guideline" and Yeah, that's a Direct Quote, as is "Firing at or from a Moving Vehicle is while not Prohibited is Strongly Discouraged" (From the Use of Force Guideline. NJ's Official Policy is "Smile and Wave" and "If you DO Pursue and anything bad happens, you'll find this "Guideline" is actually a Big old Granite Boulder we're going to shove up your ass" (Direct quote from a Deputy AG). Barring a Kidnapped Child, or Multiple Homicide suspect......anybody who runs was not being chased by yours Truly. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 8:58:31 PM EDT
[#20]
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When did you get fired? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Police officers are almost never held personally accountable for their actions. At best, tax payer funds are used to shut up victims and the cop gets fired. It is a very rare circumstance where a cop is held accountable in the same way that a private citizen would be. They are held to a much lower standard than the rest of us. When did you get fired? The name is quite appropriate....... |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:03:06 PM EDT
[#21]
I found at least a dozen mugshots of a Charles Boyd, 44 of Deland. gotta be him,
http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Charles_Boyd_22270055/ |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:11:09 PM EDT
[#22]
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Really? The only thing I care about is making the piece of shit's families pay (only if they deny their babies didn't do nothing) for my medical bills and car repairs because obviously they couldn't raise their crotcfruit. Secondly, I would be high fiving the police for finishing the job. Blame the cops for a couple of idiot criminals who stole a car? What next? Are you going to sue gun makers if your firearm is used in a crime? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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meh who cares, the only people that died were the ones who stole it Multiple people suffered property damage, and other drivers were injured. I assume they care. Really? The only thing I care about is making the piece of shit's families pay (only if they deny their babies didn't do nothing) for my medical bills and car repairs because obviously they couldn't raise their crotcfruit. Secondly, I would be high fiving the police for finishing the job. Blame the cops for a couple of idiot criminals who stole a car? What next? Are you going to sue gun makers if your firearm is used in a crime? That not how it works unless they are juveniles. The individuals here were not. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:13:27 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:23:01 PM EDT
[#24]
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"Backed off" is correct term, but not "trailing". It is advisable to increase the distance between the suspect vehicle and the pursuit vehicle when approaching the deployment location. It is easily done by coming of the gas a bit opening the gap between the suspect and pursuit vehicle. http://<a href=http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t435/asleepatthewheel/stinger_zps5iwx2lxp.jpg</a>" /> Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is kind of a tough one. On one hand, can the cops really be expected to foresee this kind of thing? What exactly does their policy say on the deployment of stop sticks? On the other hand, the one witness did have a point. The cops probably could have backed off sooner, and let the bird work. The helicopter would have had no problem tracking these guys, they were in a fucking wood grained PT Cruiser for crying out lout. I'm 99% positive they backed off because there were stop sticks ahead, not because they were worried about public safety. "Backed off" is correct term, but not "trailing". It is advisable to increase the distance between the suspect vehicle and the pursuit vehicle when approaching the deployment location. It is easily done by coming of the gas a bit opening the gap between the suspect and pursuit vehicle. http://<a href=http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t435/asleepatthewheel/stinger_zps5iwx2lxp.jpg</a>" /> He almost baited me into this one... but ive had a little bourbon and i refuse to let it happen. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 9:55:14 PM EDT
[#25]
the article said
Because the incident started with a forcible felony, authorities said, sheriff’s deputies initially pursued the stolen vehicle. However, officials decided to end the chase, and patrol units were a distance away from the vehicle when it crashed in DeLand. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:06:24 PM EDT
[#26]
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Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:12:44 PM EDT
[#27]
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Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. Liability and training. |
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Posted: 8/1/2015 10:16:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: fuck that. his living relatives should be made to work off the damages. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: uh why wouldn't the perp be liable? does "good faith" mean anything to you? Perp's dead, and probably some low life scum with no money. City govt has deep pockets.  fuck that. his living relatives should be made to work off the damages.  |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:35:02 AM EDT
[#29]
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Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. For the record, in Florida the Highway Patrol is not the only agency that can PIT. Don't know about the specific agency in the incident, but PIT training is given by and PIT's are done by other agencies. Justice is a pretty good poster so if he has info in the context of that specific agency, I'll go with what he says. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:27:12 AM EDT
[#30]
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Liability and training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. Liability and training. And budget. Wrecking cars is bad on the balance sheet. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 4:24:17 AM EDT
[#31]
What are "Stop Sticks"? Are they different than a spike strip?
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Posted: 8/2/2015 5:20:43 AM EDT
[#32]
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When did you get fired? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Police officers are almost never held personally accountable for their actions. At best, tax payer funds are used to shut up victims and the cop gets fired. It is a very rare circumstance where a cop is held accountable in the same way that a private citizen would be. They are held to a much lower standard than the rest of us. When did you get fired? You assume he made it that far. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 5:25:11 AM EDT
[#33]
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What are "Stop Sticks"? Are they different than a spike strip? I can't comment on spike strips but I've heard both terms used interchangeably. They're a Strip laid on the road way with hollow "tubes" that allow for a somewhat controlled release of air from the tire. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 7:28:35 AM EDT
[#34]
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For the record, in Florida the Highway Patrol is not the only agency that can PIT. Don't know about the specific agency in the incident, but PIT training is given by and PIT's are done by other agencies. Justice is a pretty good poster so if he has info in the context of that specific agency, I'll go with what he says. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. For the record, in Florida the Highway Patrol is not the only agency that can PIT. Don't know about the specific agency in the incident, but PIT training is given by and PIT's are done by other agencies. Justice is a pretty good poster so if he has info in the context of that specific agency, I'll go with what he says. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. I have no clue. I was just stating that if pursuing agencies don't engage in vehicular intervention and then another agency gets involved and pits the guy then they are probably the only agency authorized to perform the technique. Different departments decide what tactics they are going to train for, implement, and accept the inherent liability of using. My agencies insurance carrier is the reason we don't pit cars. They won't cover us. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 7:33:31 AM EDT
[#35]
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Perp's dead, and probably some low life scum with no money. City govt has deep pockets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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uh why wouldn't the perp be liable? does "good faith" mean anything to you? Perp's dead, and probably some low life scum with no money. City govt has deep pockets. City governments have deep pockets? It's not their money, it's OUR money. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:16:21 AM EDT
[#36]
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And budget. Wrecking cars is bad on the balance sheet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. Liability and training. And budget. Wrecking cars is bad on the balance sheet. A properly done PIT doesnt cause much damage at all to the Radio Car |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 11:18:25 AM EDT
[#37]
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What are "Stop Sticks"? Are they different than a spike strip? Same Concept..a tad more portable and easier to deploy |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 2:33:47 PM EDT
[#38]
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I have no clue. I was just stating that if pursuing agencies don't engage in vehicular intervention and then another agency gets involved and pits the guy then they are probably the only agency authorized to perform the technique. Different departments decide what tactics they are going to train for, implement, and accept the inherent liability of using. My agencies insurance carrier is the reason we don't pit cars. They won't cover us. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No. There is no safe way to stop a criminal bent on driving unsafely. There was a televised chase here a few nights ago - there was a thread - that went on FAR too long with police apparently unwilling to take necessary measures to stop the perp. He was careening through residential areas and places with lots of pedestrians. A lot of people could have been killed. He finally rolled after the state police got involved and nudged his car from the rear. That should have happened much earlier in the chase. Probably because the state police were the only ones authorized to PIT. Your post is a great example of someone providing their untrained opinion on police procedure. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thanks for playing, but the point is, WHY are the state police the only ones? The police *should* be authorized to do what they have to to stop them. This particular fuckwit blew past several areas full of pedestrians at high speed. Weaving in and out of traffic, blowing through intersections. Literally dozens of people could easily have been killed or injured. To me, the crime is not allowing the police to end the chase sooner. A car driven like that is a deadly weapon. Stop stick, pit, whatever it takes. For the record, in Florida the Highway Patrol is not the only agency that can PIT. Don't know about the specific agency in the incident, but PIT training is given by and PIT's are done by other agencies. Justice is a pretty good poster so if he has info in the context of that specific agency, I'll go with what he says. Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion. I have no clue. I was just stating that if pursuing agencies don't engage in vehicular intervention and then another agency gets involved and pits the guy then they are probably the only agency authorized to perform the technique. Different departments decide what tactics they are going to train for, implement, and accept the inherent liability of using. My agencies insurance carrier is the reason we don't pit cars. They won't cover us. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Perhaps it is different in RI, but down here in FL, most agencies are self insured (auto), meaning if we wreck a car, our own or someone else's, it comes out of the agency pocket. ETA And we teach PIT |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:39:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Perhaps it is different in RI, but down here in FL, most agencies are self insured (auto), meaning if we wreck a car, our own or someone else's, it comes out of the agency pocket.
ETA And we teach PIT This is what applies to us. For years we did not teach the PIT, eventually that changed after a couple of incidents of pursuits for serious offenses where the patrol supervisors got put in the uncomfortable situation of telling the officers involved in the pursuit "if you can safely ram the suspect vehicle, do it". When correctly done it does leave minor damage to the patrol vehicle. Still takes a supervisor authorization and is up to the individual officer to execute the pit if he believes he can safely do so. My agency also has it's own body shop.
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:48:16 PM EDT
[#40]
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New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is an established risk when using stop sticks. That isn't a guarantee that something will or will not happen, but an established high probability of unpredictability. Knowing this, stopping traffic from both directions before deploying them would make more sense than just blindly deploying them. That's where the question of liability comes in since there are other agencies do take that care. If I defibrillate someone without clearing the body, and shock someone else, I just bought that liability for me and/or my agency, not the patient in cardiac arrest, and there is an established risk with defibrillators that forces me to be aware of others that may be placed in harms way with their use. New stop sticks are hollow like a straw to allow the controlled deflation of the tires. If I had to guess the fleeing felon swerved to avoid the stop sticks and lost control of the vehicle. Don't run from the police. I'm failing to see how this could be the agency's fault. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 3:55:32 PM EDT
[#41]
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This is what applies to us. For years we did not teach the PIT, eventually that changed after a couple of incidents of pursuits for serious offenses where the patrol supervisors got put in the uncomfortable situation of telling the officers involved in the pursuit "if you can safely ram the suspect vehicle, do it". When correctly done it does leave minor damage to the patrol vehicle. Still takes a supervisor authorization and is up to the individual officer to execute the pit if he believes he can safely do so. My agency also has it's own body shop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps it is different in RI, but down here in FL, most agencies are self insured (auto), meaning if we wreck a car, our own or someone else's, it comes out of the agency pocket.
ETA And we teach PIT This is what applies to us. For years we did not teach the PIT, eventually that changed after a couple of incidents of pursuits for serious offenses where the patrol supervisors got put in the uncomfortable situation of telling the officers involved in the pursuit "if you can safely ram the suspect vehicle, do it". When correctly done it does leave minor damage to the patrol vehicle. Still takes a supervisor authorization and is up to the individual officer to execute the pit if he believes he can safely do so. My agency also has it's own body shop. Officers involved in a pursuit shall not fire any weapon from or at a moving vehicle nor engage in any vehicle contact action except as a last resort to prevent imminent death or serious injury to the officer or another person where deadly force would otherwise be justified. In other words, not really used.
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Posted: 8/2/2015 5:21:41 PM EDT
[#42]
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This is what applies to us. For years we did not teach the PIT, eventually that changed after a couple of incidents of pursuits for serious offenses where the patrol supervisors got put in the uncomfortable situation of telling the officers involved in the pursuit "if you can safely ram the suspect vehicle, do it". When correctly done it does leave minor damage to the patrol vehicle. Still takes a supervisor authorization and is up to the individual officer to execute the pit if he believes he can safely do so. My agency also has it's own body shop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps it is different in RI, but down here in FL, most agencies are self insured (auto), meaning if we wreck a car, our own or someone else's, it comes out of the agency pocket.
ETA And we teach PIT This is what applies to us. For years we did not teach the PIT, eventually that changed after a couple of incidents of pursuits for serious offenses where the patrol supervisors got put in the uncomfortable situation of telling the officers involved in the pursuit "if you can safely ram the suspect vehicle, do it". When correctly done it does leave minor damage to the patrol vehicle. Still takes a supervisor authorization and is up to the individual officer to execute the pit if he believes he can safely do so. My agency also has it's own body shop. I remember an incident a number of years ago that changed our policy, and prompted us to get PIT training. A murder suspect was spotted by a patrol Deputy, who initiated a pursuit. Pretty much every item in our vehicle pursuit policy was violated during that chase (no unmarked units involved, no caravaning, no more than 3 patrol cars in the chase, no SUVs in the chase, etc.), including the 'no ramming' section--gleefully violated when one of the deputies got on the radio and said 'Let me get up there and ram him--I've got a pool car.' This was of course hilarious to everyone else, but not to the boss. The next day the Sheriff said something to the effect of 'well hell, if ya'all gonna break the rules and ram him anyway, we might as well be properly trained.' And then we got PIT training. |
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Posted: 8/2/2015 5:22:19 PM EDT
[#43]
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Cops kind of can't win when it comes to some douche who speeds off This. Chase'em and somebody might get hurt. Let'em go and they might get away and commit more crimes. I don't envy cops their job. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 9:39:24 AM EDT
[#44]
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This. Chase'em and somebody might get hurt. Let'em go and they might get away and commit more crimes. I don't envy cops their job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cops kind of can't win when it comes to some douche who speeds off This. Chase'em and somebody might get hurt. Let'em go and they might get away and commit more crimes. I don't envy cops their job. Many Many years ago, after another agency chased a Stolen vehicle into Newark NJ, and the Shittums, blew a light and T-boned a car, killing the young, female Driver. The Mayor of Newark ordered the Police Chief to institute a "No Chase" policy with NO Exceptions....then went on the News and said so. One night my Partner and I had to meet up with w Newark unit to get some paperwork handed off, while we were sitting there at a Gas station, a car rolled up with what looked like a couple of YOUNG teenagers in it, and started doing donuts in the Middle of the street right in front of us. then drove off doing about 60. No Fucks given by the Newark Guys. That went on for about 3 months until the Stolen Car rate quadrupled, and the crashes were hourly, with the shittums just crashing the cars they stole and bolting before James revered himself and let the leash off again. The FUNNY part is the reaction when the little fucktards came across the river and tried their shit...the concept that "You arent in Newark Anymore Son" just didnt compute. |
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