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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:11:00 PM EDT
[#1]
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There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. And all died smiling with old glory reflected in their Adonis eyes, while the shifty GWOT vets slunk off in the shadows to live forever as cowards unwilling to risk themselves for beautiful lady Columbia. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:12:00 PM EDT
[#2]
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If the modern infantry get their night vision it would be wholesale slaughter after dark. Even the modern body armor would be a huge advantage against the Thompson and M1 Carbine equipped troops. Not sure if a Garand firing 1940's era load/pressure would penetrate a SAPI or E-SAPI, anyone care to comment? So on the one side you have a mix of Garands, 1903A3, M1 Carbines, Thompson & M3 grease gun smg's. 30 caliber machine guns and BAR's. Against M4 Carbines and M16 rifles, SPR, SR25, M40, M82A1, various .338 rifles, probably not many true SMG's but there are MP5, UMP, MP7 subguns and CQBR's. Then there are M249/Mk46, Mk48, M240, M2, Mk19, plus LSAT and other lightweight MG's. The firepower advantage would easily go to the modern infantry. The armor advantage is to modern also. The better medics, modern. Better GPMG's and far more of them! A modern infantry company versus a ww2 company, NO contest. Garand spec .30-06 is no better than .308 win. If armor is rated for .308win, it will stop Garand rated .30-06. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:12:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. If you replaced the ww2 infantry with todays infantry, there would be few us casualties. Body armor, night vision, medical care, tactics, training, health, and better coms |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:14:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Want me to tell you a secret? Better medivac systems, better trauma care, and better PPE make that comparison useless. We'd have lost a lot more men in Iraq and Afghanistan using technology from the 40s, too. That doesn't mean that your fantasy that all people under the age of 45 are weak pussies true, however. Arfcom's feelings on people who volunteer to spend a good bit of their adult life at war is quite interesting. 
What if I told you the average soldier now spends more time doing patrols and combat duty than the average soldier from WW2? 
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:14:33 PM EDT
[#5]
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Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Body armor is going to go a long way. Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Winner winner chicken dinner. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:20:31 PM EDT
[#6]
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Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Body armor is going to go a long way. Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Go back home and become your own grandpa |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:20:44 PM EDT
[#7]
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Are all the WW2 people gonna dress as civilians and plant IEDs or something? We slaughter people actively fighting us. A uniformed combatant would be a treat. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you can't ell the question is really about ROE. Modern politically correct ROE is a killer. Are all the WW2 people gonna dress as civilians and plant IEDs or something? We slaughter people actively fighting us. A uniformed combatant would be a treat. Here you go And the key word is slaughter. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:21:50 PM EDT
[#8]
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What if I told you the average soldier now spends more time doing patrols and combat duty than the average soldier from WW2? Maybe in Call of Duty. Buncha no good vidja gaming pussies. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:24:10 PM EDT
[#9]
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WW2 forces are more accepting of casualties. This. ALL else being equal, it comes down to the quality and grit of the fighting man. WWII units proved that they could take massive casualties and continue to be effective. Can the modern fighting American? We don't know, no data to draw on. I'm not saying the gwot isn't the shit, just that I don't think there are any battalions/regiments that experienced 50%+ casualties. Being able to absorb damage and maintain enough effectiveness to accomplish the mission is like the units x-fsctor. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:24:19 PM EDT
[#10]
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Depends on the WW2 unit. My dad was in the 101st and was a D-day and Market Garden vet . They were well trained and in very good shape when they jumped into France. By that point he had marched across Ga in a training exorcise . Jumped at Camp McCall , had explosive training in England , The fought the SS and took no prisoners , Dad took being shot at personally and said they should have surrendered when they had ammo left . Dad was also in a Mortar squad , they jumped in with a 60mm mortar a nice feature to even some odds . He was also good with a Garand . he knew all of the tricks , reloading on a partial clip and he was very quick on the reload even in his 60's They also trained shooting at longer ranges than the army currently does . Dad liberated an unattended bank in Holland  Really. , Even if he loses it will be a bloody fight . He shot a lot of Germans in 1944-45. He also killed a few Arabs in 1948 . He liked warI'd like to hear more about this. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:25:14 PM EDT
[#11]
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This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. Lol. You're not infantry are you? |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:25:57 PM EDT
[#12]
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Not against 30.06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Body armor is going to go a long way. Not against 30.06 E-SAPIs are rated against black tip 06. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:26:51 PM EDT
[#13]
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Maybe in Call of Duty. Buncha no good vidja gaming pussies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What if I told you the average soldier now spends more time doing patrols and combat duty than the average soldier from WW2? Maybe in Call of Duty. Buncha no good vidja gaming pussies. I didn't do anything in Afghanistan except drink ripits and play COD on my high speed internet, in my air conditioned apartment. Oh, and eat Otis Spunkmeyer diabetes in a bag er, muffins. Every time they wanted us to go do something, I was just like "nah, sarge, I got to level up and these muffins aren't going to eat themselves. Can you run to the DFAC and get me a sandwich?" Sometimes we did go commit some war crimes, though, because as David Grossman will tell you, you touch the devil-box and then you're a babykiller for life. Someone said "military discipline," but I was all like "nah, I grew up after rotary phones and carburetors were big, I don't need that shit." |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:27:26 PM EDT
[#14]
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WWII units proved that they could take massive casualties and continue to be effective. Over 100,000 Americans surrendered to the enemy in WW2. Almost all instances of units getting over run in GWOT they fought to the death. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:28:41 PM EDT
[#15]
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... and some in this thread are touting that as if it counts in the WWII GI's favor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. ... and some in this thread are touting that as if it counts in the WWII GI's favor. Dying in combat proves you're a better warrior, apparently. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:29:02 PM EDT
[#16]
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LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This should be fun, assume no fire support, reinforcements, or intelligence, fight starts in early morning shortly after sun up, area is mixed urban and open, think the outskirts of a city, one company sized element of each, each has the ROE and weapons and equipment of their respective eras, all else is equal, who wins? What about with equal weapons and equipment (assuming the other side has been familiarized)? LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . I served in Iraq in an infantry unit. But my combat experience was not Anbar, but rather a nerve wracking stablity operation in Baghdad where we rarely saw the enemy, but experienced their IEDs regularly. Our modern troops are very well trained and equipped, and performed well. But if it is truly company vs. company, lots of our modern benefits like air support or artillery would not be there. In our AO in 2005 we were not well practiced in an aggressive fix - manuever - destroy operation. If we had met a foe that was a nimble and mobile aggressor, we would have had a tough time. In this scenario, an agressive WW2 company would probably have out manuevered and over run us. Our equipment would have let us put up a very good fight. I would not say that a trooper today is any more or less brave than one in 1944, but their mentality was probably different. I can hardly imagine thousands of our guys today riding in a landing craft and storming a beach knowing that many of them would never make it 10 feet. And I would not want my guys to die like that. It's probably why some adversary would eat me for lunch while I tried to avoid casualties. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:36:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Modern forces win. They have selector stops on their weapons.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:39:30 PM EDT
[#18]
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The one that says that a group of uniformed soldiers must be treated as if it a bunch of kindergarteners. That also ignores the roe of the march to Baghdad Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. What ROE are you talking about. The one that says that a group of uniformed soldiers must be treated as if it a bunch of kindergarteners. That also ignores the roe of the march to Baghdad Oh, so the made up pretend land ROE. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:43:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Well shit. An interesting point has been raised. The modern guys are going to have to bang their grandmothers first so they can be their own grandpas.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:02:11 PM EDT
[#20]
vs 
This is a real question? |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:07:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Who has more machine guns? Stronger? Faster? Better trained? Equipped? Experienced? |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:10:07 PM EDT
[#22]
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Not against 30.06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Body armor is going to go a long way. Not against 30.06 Holy fucking fall, Batman |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:14:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Modern, especially in urban areas. Better equipment and clothes. Better food.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:21:54 PM EDT
[#24]
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How long did you serve in the infantry? ETA- Again, no disrespect to the WWII guys but this myth of the hard-ass farm boy infantryman is funny. The WWII generation had their fair share of pansies just like this generation. Modern infantry is better trained and better equipped and now had 12 years of combat experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. 300 men company wouldn't survive a day with a 300 men WWII troop with equal amount of weapons no electronics How long did you serve in the infantry? ETA- Again, no disrespect to the WWII guys but this myth of the hard-ass farm boy infantryman is funny. The WWII generation had their fair share of pansies just like this generation. Modern infantry is better trained and better equipped and now had 12 years of combat experience. He is right. See how the hold 1911s back then compared to now. Apply this to infantry tactics; we've evolved. We train more to. Lets not even count the modern equipment. It wouldn't be even at all. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:31:54 PM EDT
[#25]
One of the selections was all things being equal. That includes weapons and everything else. Nobody is going to say modern wouldn't win if each era vet had what they had then vs now. That's like saying if the Alamo had jet fighters who would have won.
 How about start listing the stuff modern has that makes their era easier. They are not deployed for the duration of the war. Back then, it was win, get wounded bad enough so one couldn't ever serve again or get killed before you get to go home. Modern has cell phones and video so they can see and talk to their families. WWII had snail mail and if they were lucky they got to hear a radio once in awhile. I think the WWII guys had it way, way tougher all around, especially the guys in the Pacific. For that reason, I think all weapons being equal, WWII guys come out on top. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:33:21 PM EDT
[#26]
How is there even any doubt? It is like asking the outcome of a fight between WWII GI's and US Civil War Infantry.....no contest.
I like "What if?" threads as much as the next fella but this is ridiculous. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:34:09 PM EDT
[#27]
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You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. 300 men company wouldn't survive a day with a 300 men WWII troop with equal amount of weapons no electronics Muh Greatest Ginerashun huurrrrrr durrrrrr. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:34:22 PM EDT
[#28]
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S_A_C thread  |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:34:48 PM EDT
[#29]
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How is there even any doubt? It is like asking the outcome of a fight between WWII GI's and US Civil War Infantry.....no contest. I like "What if?" threads as much as the next fella but this is ridiculous. A Roman Legion from circa 55 B.C versus a modern U.S Marine Expeditionary Unit. 
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:35:53 PM EDT
[#30]
LOL
depending upon the year and unit a WWII company may be equipped with 1903 Springfields rather than M1s how would you like that? and Reisings instead of Thompsons early in the war US units were poorly equipped with a lot of WWI leftovers...... Look at the Marine units landing on Guadalcanal with Springfields........ 
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:37:01 PM EDT
[#31]
Hey man.......where's my M1?
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:37:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Us vs WWII Us pretty much no different than the shitbags we're killing in the middle east every goddamn day of the year for the last 14 years.
Poorly armed, trained, and malnourished fighters with sub average intelligence. They have no armor, they have terrible magazine sizes, a limited ammunition capacity, no equipment, no "real" communications.
How many bandoleers are they gonna hump for that Garand? You ever try to carry 300 rounds of 30-06? It's pretty easy to do that with an AR. It would be 100% wholesale slaughter. It wouldn't even be close. After dark? It would be worse. Much much much worse. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:40:17 PM EDT
[#33]
5'8 inches tall
140 pounds with his iron sighted 03......a REAL man's rifle..... you ever look through the sights on a 03? Now what a delight. We don't need no stinkN MOA graduations on our windage adjustments...... well use a completely different system....points is where its at. RustedAce with his ACOG would have no chance again such a finely crafted killN gun as this.......a well trained soldier could put out 10,11 or maybe 12 rounds a minute!! 
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:42:00 PM EDT
[#34]
RustedAce
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:49:57 PM EDT
[#35]
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Holy fucking fall, Batman Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Body armor is going to go a long way. Not against 30.06 Holy fucking fall, Batman Dude everyone knows they all fall to 30'-06 ball........er....wait...what the hey?!! 
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:51:32 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  LOLQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Body armor is going to go a long way. Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. LOL |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 9:25:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Even if you couldn't hold out until night and use magic see-in-the-dark goggles with invisible lasers, comms alone (and the fact that they're now compact enough that anyone can carry them in a pocket) would blow them out of the water. Take out single radioman in enemy company, now they are dead to anything they can't see or hear directly.
My grandpa is a badass, don't get me wrong. He's just a badass who would find himself astonished at the capabilities of the modern military. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 9:52:28 AM EDT
[#38]
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This is my point exactly, if the rest can't tell, the question is really about ROE. Modern politically correct ROE is a killer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This is my point exactly, if the rest can't tell, the question is really about ROE. Modern politically correct ROE is a killer. What part of "hostile intent, hostile action" would limit modern response? The very fact that they are wearing uniforms and caring weapons means modern infantry can engage with zero hesitation. You should try learning what ROEs mean before you go on a rant about them. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 9:55:09 AM EDT
[#39]
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Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Body armor is going to go a long way. Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. 
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Posted: 7/31/2015 9:55:30 AM EDT
[#40]
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Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why do you love war crimes? Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. 
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:02:49 AM EDT
[#41]
The WWII guys are in their late 80s and 90s. No contest. The modern infantry 20 something's would win at exactly 4PM when cracker barrel starts the early bird.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:05:30 AM EDT
[#42]
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Us vs WWII Us pretty much no different than the shitbags we're killing in the middle east every goddamn day of the year for the last 14 years. Poorly armed, trained, and malnourished fighters with sub average intelligence. They have no armor, they have terrible magazine sizes, a limited ammunition capacity, no equipment, no "real" communications. How many bandoleers are they gonna hump for that Garand? You ever try to carry 300 rounds of 30-06? It's pretty easy to do that with an AR. It would be 100% wholesale slaughter. It wouldn't even be close. After dark? It would be worse. Much much much worse. Pray tell, upon what basis are you asserting that our WWII vets were poorly armed, trained, malnourished, and of sub average intelligence? |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:06:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Anything other than the SROE is theater specific and generally classified
The rules of self defense within SROE are not all that limiting; but there may be issues for offensive operations and or pre-emptive actions |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:09:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Modern infantry wins the battle but loses the peace.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:10:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pray tell, upon what basis are you asserting that our WWII vets were poorly armed, trained, malnourished, and of sub average intelligence? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Us vs WWII Us pretty much no different than the shitbags we're killing in the middle east every goddamn day of the year for the last 14 years. Poorly armed, trained, and malnourished fighters with sub average intelligence. They have no armor, they have terrible magazine sizes, a limited ammunition capacity, no equipment, no "real" communications. How many bandoleers are they gonna hump for that Garand? You ever try to carry 300 rounds of 30-06? It's pretty easy to do that with an AR. It would be 100% wholesale slaughter. It wouldn't even be close. After dark? It would be worse. Much much much worse. Pray tell, upon what basis are you asserting that our WWII vets were poorly armed, trained, malnourished, and of sub average intelligence? |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:20:19 AM EDT
[#46]
I get one drone, one M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank, and one modern equipped platoon of hard charging Devil Dogs versus a P-47, a Sherman, and Easy Co of the 502nd PIR.
The drone is invisible cause the P-47 can't see it and then loiters over the battlefield giving the platoon leader intel in real time, the M1 pounds the Sherman's tracks and they can't move again before they even know they're in range, the platoon maneuvers to capture the paratroopers using NVG's and everyone goes to the whorehouse for a knock-down drag out party to end all parties paid for by Halliburton! That my friends is how this really should work out! |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:23:43 AM EDT
[#47]
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There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. All that proves is that current soldiers are better at staying alive. Or that there's a huge difference in the number of fighters involved. Or that the wars being fought today are different than the conventional wars of the 20th century. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:25:52 AM EDT
[#48]
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Dying in combat proves you're a better warrior, apparently. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. ... and some in this thread are touting that as if it counts in the WWII GI's favor. Dying in combat proves you're a better warrior, apparently. The Russian's must have had fucking fantastic warriors then. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:26:45 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Us vs WWII Us pretty much no different than the shitbags we're killing in the middle east every goddamn day of the year for the last 14 years. Poorly armed, trained, and malnourished fighters with sub average intelligence. They have no armor, they have terrible magazine sizes, a limited ammunition capacity, no equipment, no "real" communications. How many bandoleers are they gonna hump for that Garand? You ever try to carry 300 rounds of 30-06? It's pretty easy to do that with an AR. It would be 100% wholesale slaughter. It wouldn't even be close. After dark? It would be worse. Much much much worse. That's an odd assertion - similar scenario, WWII US troops (even ones fresh off the boat) against a similar number of "combat hardened" isis and I would still pick the US troops to win by a large margin. Though I do agree that they were malnourished by todays standards. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:27:50 AM EDT
[#50]
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the fact that my legs weight more then your average ww2 soldier? the fact that the school lunch program was established to combat the fact that so many were not eligible to serve do to malnutrition? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Us vs WWII Us pretty much no different than the shitbags we're killing in the middle east every goddamn day of the year for the last 14 years. Poorly armed, trained, and malnourished fighters with sub average intelligence. They have no armor, they have terrible magazine sizes, a limited ammunition capacity, no equipment, no "real" communications. How many bandoleers are they gonna hump for that Garand? You ever try to carry 300 rounds of 30-06? It's pretty easy to do that with an AR. It would be 100% wholesale slaughter. It wouldn't even be close. After dark? It would be worse. Much much much worse. Pray tell, upon what basis are you asserting that our WWII vets were poorly armed, trained, malnourished, and of sub average intelligence? Modern military gets to pick and choose who they accept, conscript military takes whomever meets the barest physical requirements. Modern military is made up of professionals who WANT to be there, conscript military is made up of people threatened with the penalty of law. |
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